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Deceased Lisanne And Kris, Two Dutch Students Missing In Panama Mountains.

Dutchesse

Dutchesse

Well-Known Member
This has been big news in my country, so I though I'd post it here. I honestly don't think they will be found alive since they've been missing for over a month, but there is no indication of violence as of yet.

Up to date info is unfortunately in Dutch so the facebook is the best place to look - https://www.facebook.com/pages/Lisanne-Froon-and-Kris-Kremers/1388075314805262



Kris Kremers (21) and Lisanne Froon (22) went hiking in the mountains of Boquete on the Il Pianista trail on April 1st and have been missing ever since. On the trail a plastic bag with food and drinks wrappers were found. The trail is apparently safe and do-able in a day: it takes about 1,5-2 hours to the top, and 1,5 hours to go down again. Directions are indicated by arrows on rocks so them getting lost is unlikely.

The search has been scaled down by local authorities when it came up with nothing, but the parents of one of the girls will be flying to Panama so that might inspire another search.
Locals say the village is relatively safe and not known for kidnappings, robberies or anything like that.

The reward money has been raised to 30.000 dollar.
 
Update: An anonymous tipster claims to have seen two bodies in the area where the girls went missing. The police has not been able to find these bodies though. They will search again today I believe.

The reward money is now raised to 40.000 dollar so this might be a case of false information.
 
Update: They found the girls' backpack which contained two phones and a camera. So the robbery angle might be excluded now.
The backpack was found in a difficult to traverse piece of jungle near a river, probably washed away from the El Pianista path which runs next to it. It was apparently found by a native lady who had to walk a day to report it to the authorities (that lady is awesome).
No word on the missing American woman.

The search resumes and intensifies in the coming days.

http://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/het-zeker-kris-en-lisanne-namen-wandelpad (Dutch).
 
The search of the mountains around Boquete by specially trained dogs and dog handlers from The Netherlands has ended without the two missing Dutchwomen being found. It may not be entirely accurate to call the hunt “fruitless,” as those who are looking for Lisanne Froon and Kris Kremers believe that had the women wandered that area, or had they died and their remains been in that area, the dogs would have caught scent of them. Thus the presumption is that they did not go off into the mountains, either of their own volition or as victims of a forcible abduction, but rather went or were taken elsewhere. The hunt continues, now without the dogs but reportedly by Panamanian police with the help of Dutch detectives.
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http://thepanamanews.com/wp/
 
It's all over it seems - a press conference a few minutes ago announced they found shoes and human remains in the area. The chance that it's not the girls looks pretty slim.

Will update when we have cause of death.
 
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Doesn't seem to be any foul play involved thus far; seems they must have gotten lost/disoriented.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2014/06/human_remains_in_panama_jungle.php

Human remains in Panama jungle are that of missing Dutch girl
Monday 23 June 2014

Human remains found in a remote area of jungle in Panama are confirmed as that of missing Dutch woman Lisanne Froon, sources have told Nos television.

A human bone found close by will undergo dna testing today to see if it came from Lisanne or from Kris Kremers. ...

No traces of violence have been found on the bones, the research leader told Nos reporter Eva Wiessing.

Walk

The human remains, shoes and a rucksack containing clothing and mobile phones, were found last week, some 10 km from where the women were last seen.

Wiessing said it is now thought unlikely the girls were the victims of a crime. The place where they were found is a tough eight hour walk for locals, she said.

‘An outsider would take 15 or 16 hours. It is unlikely they were forced to walk this distance,’ she said.
...
Click to expand...
 
Well, they analysed a human foot (which was apparently the 'human remains' in a shoe of other reports) and it belonged to Lisanne. :(

What happened to the rest of her body? Animals?
I wonder if they'll find remains of Kris as well.
 
Im really curious about this. From all accounts, the area the bodies were found could've been carried by water, but the depth traveled by the girls just to get to that possibility still would've been further than most locals would attempt. And if one girl fell/succumbed to the terrain, wouldn't you think the other girl would stop all movement to preventthe same fate for herself, if not entirely return to civilization? This could be an accident, but it sure seems like all the facts aren't being disclosed [or even known] at this point.
 
witzah said:
This could be an accident, but it sure seems like all the facts aren't being disclosed [or even known] at this point.
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's a very odd story. I hope they can develop the photos, that might tell us more.
They found a foot and part of a pelvis, you really would expect there to be more skeletal remains if they, for example, died of starvation and animals got to them.
And why would they deviate from the trail? They ended up in a very thick and difficult to traverse part of jungle, not somewhere you would voluntarily go if you were lost. Unless they fell in the river, drowned and were swept away....
So many questions! I feel so bad for their parents, they must be going crazy thinking about all of this.
 
*Updates from the last week.

-The Panama authorities have resumed the search and found more bones.
-Their cellphones have been used to call 112 (Dutch emergency number) and 911 several times. No explanation was given on why this did not work, so I'm assuming there was no coverage and they couldn't get through.
-Analysis from the camera shows them reaching the top of the mountain at 13:00 on the day they went to climb it. So something must have happened on the way down. After that, there are a few more photos from a week(!) later, showing only jungle. Researchers think they may have been using the flash function to light the way in the dark.

So it really does seem they got lost. I had my doubt about that theory because the trail was so clear, and they obviously made it to the top no problem, but now it seems they had been wandering around in the jungle for over a week.

However, Kris' dad has stated he does not believe they got lost, and he may have more information than is out at this point.
*edit* In an interview he mentioned for example that they seem to have taken of their bra at some point because they were found away from the bodies. He thinks that is a strange thing to do voluntarily when you're lost.
I wonder if irrational actions like that could not be caused by the dehydration though.
 
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I hate to dwell on this but since we know at least one of them was out there alive for over a week, I wonder if one of them died significantly before the other and was used as a food source. That's a long time to be lost and wandering with little to no food, they didn't take much with them to start with.

Probably not but my mind goes to some disturbing places sometimes.
 
Dutchesse said:
*Updates from the last week.

However, Kris' dad has stated he does not believe they got lost, and he may have more information than is out at this point.
*edit* In an interview he mentioned for example that they seem to have taken of their bra at some point because they were found away from the bodies. He thinks that is a strange thing to do voluntarily when you're lost.
I wonder if irrational actions like that could not be caused by the dehydration though.
Click to expand...

How is that weird? I Guarantee you if I was lost in a jungle i would take off my bra. I don't even want to wear a bra in air conditioning.
 
Benighted said:
I hate to dwell on this but since we know at least one of them was out there alive for over a week, I wonder if one of them died significantly before the other and was used as a food source. That's a long time to be lost and wandering with little to no food, they didn't take much with them to start with.

Probably not but my mind goes to some disturbing places sometimes.
Click to expand...

I don't think that is unlikely at all. After a week in that situation, I'd think you'd do just about anything to survive.
I hope it didn't happen though, this is sad enough for the parents as it is....

DEZPICABLE ME said:
How is that weird? I Guarantee you if I was lost in a jungle i would take off my bra. I don't even want to wear a bra in air conditioning.
Click to expand...

Yeah I'd probably just walk around half naked at some point. Screw that heat.
 
(Google translated from dutch, so not perfect but interesting details come through)

Last weekend it was announced that skeletal remains have been found again in the same area by the river where as earlier remains and belongings of the girls were discovered. The parents of Kris had hear this news media. The relationship between the judiciary and the family has thus been severely disrupted. The pictures taken with the camera are made, you can see that the girls are around at 1pm at the top of the mountain. They are both with a big smile on the photo."The tourists are pictures," said a spokeswoman Kris' family. "She looks happy, not tired and not sick." No area The images show the girls the other hand, walking down the mountain after the summit. They do not return the same way back, as the day trip is intended. The route is not clear in the information from Lonely Planet. An hour later, they make a picture, with a waterfall. Then Kris looks happy. At the end of the afternoon, the mood turned. Before the dark they call an emergency number. But they have no coverage. According to the spokeswoman, they try a number of consecutive days 112 and 911. Only seven days later, on the night of April 8, to display photos taken with the camera.Between 1 and 4 o'clock in the morning there are ninety pictures taken. Most are black, but photographed a rock bottom at some state. According to the parents of Kris Kremers is unlikely that their daughter is lost in the jungle. "They've seen it with my own eyes, and there is really only one path," said the spokeswoman for the family. "It's going forward or backward, so why are they not gone back?Moreover, after their disappearance days searched on that path. "
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http://www.volkskrant.nl/vk/nl/2686...to-s-gemaakt-met-camera-Kris-en-Lisanne.dhtml
 
Similar, but in English (and minor different details)

Van Passel said that the photographs contain images of the trail. In one, Kremers is shown in a small creek and is smiling.
"In the photographs the girls do not show signs of fatigue, and when they reached the top of the trail, they raised their hands, they were enjoying themselves," he said.
But the cell phone, found in a backpack reveals that there were emergency calls to 911 in Panama and to 112 in Holland. However there is no reception in the area.
The spokesman emphasized that prosecutors still have much to clarify about the deaths of both women. He said remains found last week still have to be analyzed, as well as the contents of a cell phone found in a backpack.
The women did not take any pictures from April 1 until April 8, when 90 pictures were taken between 1 a.m. and 4 a.m., but the pictures were too dark to see anything.
The new bone pieces will be analyzed at the headquarters of the Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Sciences in David. They were delivered on Saturday to the public prosecutor by indigenous residents who found them in Alto Romero, Changuinola.
Judicial sources said Monday, August 4, that the evidence will not be analyzed in Panama City because the comparative samples are in David. The results are expected in two days reports La Prensa
On Sunday, the parents of Kris Kremers climbed the path the two girls had taken and publicly thanked the local population for its solidarity with girls
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http://www.newsroompanama.com/news/panama/early-photos-of-dead-girls-show-them-smiling-and-happy

As @Dutchesse said, a week later the camera gets 90 pics in a few hours. I'm curious what happened during those 8 days. ... if used for light, why wait a week? Maybe an animal got top it and moving it around took some shots? Either that or something truly nefarious
 
@witzah - Thanks for the English info!

I wonder if we'll ever know what happened. I guess the biggest question remains why they left/lost the path in the first place. There are conflicting accounts about it - some say it is clearly marked, some say it is quite confusing.

Maybe they were attacked by an animal after becoming too weak to defend themselves.
 
This case really intrigues me, @Dutchesse. I find it interesting that the girl's disappeared without explanation in the first place, but what REALLY gets me is the camera's role in documenting the unexplainable. Even with the pictures, it makes no sense.

I can't help but recall the horror/suspense flick, Event Horizon, whenever I think of these girls. That movie centers on the reappearance of a long missing spaceship, and the confusing events portrayed by the pictures/video recorded by their ship logging the events that lead up to their demise. It was very compelling (to me) with its believable interpretation of future feats (like it's premise being that the shortest distance between 2 lines is no longer a straight line, but nothing at all - if you bend the line containing the distances so each point lines up with the other). If we had the capacity to travel at such unbelievably far away distances in the universe, could our versions of heaven and hell actually be traveled to? Because if either exist, they have to exist SOMEWHERE. ... and this movie brought the missing ship to hell.

Going off on a loose tangent here, but the crazy disappearance coupled with the unexplained pictures makes me keep thinking of that movie. I hope we can figure it out, because the suspense is killing me!
 
Another article translated by Google from dutch (not great, but gets the general point across)

According to the parents then tried a number of times in the following days to call the emergency number. Were the women lost, or is there something else happened? Getting lost, according to the parents of Kris unlikely as long as the women are not deviated from the path or have remained. Near the path

Who took the pictures one week later?

On April 8, 2014, exactly one week after the loss, with the camera are still some 90 photos taken. The photos were in 3 hours, between 01.00 and 04.00 hours local time shot. The most logical explanation seems to be that women have to illuminate. Their path in the jungle with the use of the flash
Click to expand...

http://www.misdaadvandaag.nl/vermissing-kris-en-lisanne-blijft-een-raadsel/
Another informative article.... alas, in Dutch. Here's googles translation:

"The Panamanian judiciary lacks the resources to do in the case of the deceased Dutch Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon." Quickly and appropriately 'research' That allows Enrique Arrocha, the lawyer of the Kremers family in Panama.

[....]

Murder?
This, according to him, unfortunately, also affect the case of the Dutch. Last month, it became clear that Kremers and Froon died, but the cause of death is still unclear.
Click to expand...

http://www.nieuws.nl/algemeen/20140806/Advocaat-familie-Kremers-OM-Panama-niet-capabel

What I got from the loose translation was that Kris' parents have a lawyer, and that there is speculation over the demise being nefarious.

I wish this story were as big over here as it is in Panama and the Netherlands so we'd get articles and updates easily and more often!
 
Interesting comment on an English speaking individual living in Panama's blog:

This is a horrible story. Nobody will ever know for sure exactly what happened although it is likely that the women got lost in the jungle and maybe tired, alone, and hungry made a series of unfortunate decisions, maybe assuming the river would flow back to Boquete and not to the Atlantic, or perhaps they attempted to cross a swollen river … nobody will know. It is a jungle out there and that jungle still has jaguars, which next to lions and tigers are the largest wild cats.
Click to expand...

http://richarddetrich.com
 
witzah said:
This case really intrigues me, @Dutchesse. I find it interesting that the girl's disappeared without explanation in the first place, but what REALLY gets me is the camera's role in documenting the unexplainable. Even with the pictures, it makes no sense.

I can't help but recall the horror/suspense flick, Event Horizon, whenever I think of these girls. That movie centers on the reappearance of a long missing spaceship, and the confusing events portrayed by the pictures/video recorded by their ship logging the events that lead up to their demise. It was very compelling (to me) with its believable interpretation of future feats (like it's premise being that the shortest distance between 2 lines is no longer a straight line, but nothing at all - if you bend the line containing the distances so each point lines up with the other). If we had the capacity to travel at such unbelievably far away distances in the universe, could our versions of heaven and hell actually be traveled to? Because if either exist, they have to exist SOMEWHERE. ... and this movie brought the missing ship to hell.

Going off on a loose tangent here, but the crazy disappearance coupled with the unexplained pictures makes me keep thinking of that movie. I hope we can figure it out, because the suspense is killing me!
Click to expand...
Yeah, I'm a horror junkie and that one's one of my favorites. It's pretty dated now, but still really creeps me out.

The creepy thing this case really reminds me of is the Dyatlov Pass incident. It's popular to blame aliens or nuclear testing for that one, but personally I think the avalanche/panic/hypothermia theory is the most likely. People tend to act very bizarrely when they're lost in a remote area, especially if any kind of medical situation comes up.

I wonder if the girls didn't stumble into a venomous snake or other common, scary-looking animal on the trail. It looks like Bouquete is home to bushmasters, coral snakes, eyelash pit vipers, fer-de-lance, and jumping vipers, and those are just the venomous ones. They might have tried to go around one by leaving the trail and then gotten lost or hurt. Alternately, if they left the trail for some other reason, any of these snakes' bites would be fatal if you were lost and couldn't get medical attention quickly enough.
 
Oh yes @Chinchillazilla - it is similar to the Dyatlov Pass incident. There are so many things that this case remind me of that I can't quite articulate but feel tingling in my spidey senses, but that's definitely one of them. Thanks for drawing that connection, I agree it's creepily similar. Only worse here is we have unexplained pictures documenting the dates of their disappearance & demise! I just find that so creepy. And interesting.

Thanks for sharing an interest in Event Horizon - I feel my earlier post is less wild/random now!
 
OK, I just used up my lunch break at work reading up on this case online. I'm so disappointed there aren't more English reports on this - but oh well.

I read through several forums where Spanish speakers & Dutch speakers made posts in addition to English speaking posters, and a lot of extra info is obviously present. I'm going to search for the links when at home, but the summary of the extra info I gleaned over lunch was:

- April 1st was the hike
- There were witnesses to seeing the 2 girls in places that were different than the timestamped photos support
(I am pretty sure the girls' school reported them as researching their hike on a computer at the school at around this time? There were 5 eye witnesses - all with wrong date/time - so question is made as to either conspiracy of witness reports and/or another return to the hike was made later and why?)
- At 1 the girls were photoed atop the mountain/waterfall
- Emergency calls placed later same day (2 1/2 hours later)
- Not only were there 90 extra photos in a span of 3-4 hours 8 days later, but there were additional calls to emergency on that date AND on April 11
- Question over battery life of cell phones
- Question over discovery of skeleton in so many ripped/demolished & separated pieces - yet the backpack was found in one single & clean (more or less) condition
- Question of path being used by drug traffickers and/or indigenous
- Apparently the pictures and calls were made from 2 devices but some photos still not released to parents
- Girls had both their cell phones and a camera - it was the camera that (i think) recorded the 90 later pictures
- 3 of the 90 pics had images depicted on them - one red lights and one dust cloud
- How could there be red lights & dust cloud in pictures from mid of rain forest?
- Speculation over girls being separated from one another at some point and searching for each other before succumbing to the elements
- Speculation over a 3rd party involved - and after something nefarious, body parts were returned to the forest to throw off the scent (along w/ placing fake emergency calls to destroy timeline)
- If there is a picture of the 2 girls atop the mountain/waterfall, who took this picture? (could've been timer, but good question)

I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot, but those are the immediate ones to come to my attention. Don't want to waste more of my lunch on this so just posting before forget. I am not done looking into this - it fascinates me - and will follow up with sites of some/all these questions if possible. I had a problem getting to some of the links through my office's firewall, but they were almost all dutch sites, forums, and radio telecasts. FYI. Also, one site had eenvandaag in it (because that term remains in my google translate box, but there is no translation for this so unsure what it represents).
 
witzah said:
Question over discovery of skeleton in so many ripped/demolished & separated pieces - yet the backpack was found in one single & clean (more or less) condition
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Animals feeding on their corpses would explain that? Nothing edible (left) in the backpack by the time they died, so that would have been uninteresting to animals. I actually believe this increases the likelihood that they did not meet their end at the hands of human beings.
 
Abroad said:
Animals feeding on their corpses would explain that? Nothing edible (left) in the backpack by the time they died, so that would have been uninteresting to animals. I actually believe this increases the likelihood that they did not meet their end at the hands of human beings.
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That sounds legitimate as a possibility, but the posts I read online from people in Panama made that sound unlikely (as they didn't believe that the path the girls were found on, which had many tourists and many people routinely traversing it, was remote enough for any big animals to go to, per the animals routine - stay away from populated areas). I read one post from someone living/hiking there for 20 years who said he's never even seen a jaguar, which would be my guess as the most likely culprit for the skeletal damages.

Regardless, I'm mainly confused by the two bras being located in the backpack, the pants separated from one girl that was buttoned and zipped close, and the minimal hiking supplies in the backpack.

Most confusing.....If the girls had electronic devices that could record the dilemma - if one existed, like lost, bit, etc - AND they had the ability to use those devices (as seen by their repeated emergency calls)....why aren't there any photos of the girls explaining they are lost/hurt/etc?

If a natural emergency happened, it would have to be quick to prevent that from happening.....but we know they were at least able to call emergency, so it couldn't have been immediately incapacitating.

My opinion, at this point, I'd that there was a third party involved in their disappearance.

(Some other frequent Panamanian posts referenced people missing over time on el pianista that were never located without explanation, and that Panama needs to stay looking into what is causing these disappearances. Specific names/times were given from 2009-2013, but I can't verify right now.)

Again, I promise to update with sources....as soon as I get the chance.

Oh, I also read there are unreleased photos due to legality issues with a local power plant our reservoir or something? And Kris' family is urging officials to send divers to check out that area in particular? Which begs the question - if they were lost and that close to multiple sources of obvious inhabited stress, why didn't they go there or make it there? Apparently there was a house in the middle of one of the parties with cows in it in this path, and a restaurant.

Take these added tidbits as rumor until/unless I can cite. I repeatedly saw these added points referenced, but I honestly don't recall if these were ever verified (our just similar shared opinions)
 
witzah said:
I read one post from someone living/hiking there for 20 years who said he's never even seen a jaguar, which would be my guess as the most likely culprit for the skeletal damages.
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That actually doesn't really mean much, to me. Jaguars are almost entirely designed for stealth. They have excellent camouflage for the jungle, and their entire hunting strategy involves staying in their prey's blind spot before they pounce. Plus they drag their prey to secluded places after a hunt, so you probably wouldn't even see the kills. If a jaguar doesn't want to be seen by a human, I'm pretty sure it won't be.


witzah said:
Most confusing.....If the girls had electronic devices that could record the dilemma - if one existed, like lost, bit, etc - AND they had the ability to use those devices (as seen by their repeated emergency calls)....why aren't there any photos of the girls explaining they are lost/hurt/etc?
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It would never occur to me to take photos for that, personally. I would think taking pictures/videos would just run your battery down faster, and you'd want to preserve it in case you got somewhere where you had service and could get through to 911.
 
Chinchillazilla said:
That actually doesn't really mean much, to me. Jaguars are almost entirely designed for stealth. They have excellent camouflage for the jungle, and their entire hunting strategy involves staying in their prey's blind spot before they pounce. Plus they drag their prey to secluded places after a hunt, so you probably wouldn't even see the kills. If a jaguar doesn't want to be seen by a human, I'm pretty sure it won't be.



It would never occur to me to take photos for that, personally. I would think taking pictures/videos would just run your battery down faster, and you'd want to preserve it in case you got somewhere where you had service and could get through to 911.
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Ok, I would definitely take a photo, but regardless - stressful situations involve stressed (and unanticipated) decision making. That said....If they weren't able get through to emergency, why not try any other numbers? Or text? Kris was reportedly in routine contact with parents. I would expect repeated attempts at emergency follow by alternate attempts at other numbers, or texts (that go through as soon as you get a spot of coverage.) There's no reported/released info from the phones beyond those few isolated emergency attempts. These girls are young and live in an electronic world - I have a hard time accepting that no alternate attempts were made through other means to contact/communicate with ANYONE. JMHO.
 
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