Where do you stand?

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

My brother and I had a conversation last night, and he kept telling me I was a democrat and didn't realize it. Of course, he was being tongue in cheek. He wants me to be a democrat, so we can sit around a bitch on some evenings about the world together, and not get into philosophical debates that lead to bad feelings. We're both condescending and patronizing, and shit gets ugly quick. So we rattled off some key issues, and we laid out where we stood on them....we weren't all that far apart, and we both figured out that I'm more liberal than I thought, and he's more conservative than he thought...but all in all, if we both HAD to be in a "democratic" pool, or a "republican" pool, we were going to swim where we both were comfy...he a dem, me a 'pub...but of course, I don't consider myself a republican...I lean that way sometimes, but I fancy myself as looking at all the issues, and voting for whoever I think is best.

At the current moment, I'm leaning Obama, but there are things I like about McCain. I'm not crazy about either.

ANyways, I thought I'd place that list here, and if anyone wants to answer, cool, and if not, I don't mind wasting my breath--er--time, since I'm typing. All in all, it's fairly obvious, that there are topics and issues that they are radically far apart on, but with some very important ones, they're closer than we think, and it's just about the details....although details can be a bitch, can't they? ;)


Where do you stand on:

1. Economy?

a. Globalism? For it? Against it? If so, how? (Me, I think globalism is the catalyst in which America will fall, and the middle class will be destroyed. Its the beginning of a global nation in which the corporate empires will be the law, and they'll control the world. Sounds like a sci fi book, but it's already happening. Shit really got kick started in the 80's, and now we're on a course for a very bleak future, as working class)

b. Immigration laws? (Regulated, immediately. Stop immigration. Its not about race. Same thing if poor swedes were coming in by hordes, and it's lending a hand to crippling the economy. And quite frankly, its bullshit when we hear "they're doing jobs others don't want to". Its just wrong. Its got to be stopped.)

c. Drilling at home? (No. Its not going to solve the real crisis at hand.)

d. Nuclear energy? (I think so, yes....I think.)

e. I'm forgetting some others, but please contribute it you can think of others, which there are many of.

2. THe FISA bill? WHat defines patriotism, to a lesser degree? For the wire tapping bill?

On the surface, I'm for it. Tap us domestically, sure. He have to. It's the world now. Personal freedoms are important, the moral fiber of the constitution, yes....but we cant wait for warrants all the time---ONLY, we've been able to get warrants retroactively for a long time now....they allow 3-5 days to GET a retro-active warrant, and that's not enough time. So why not compromise? A month? More? (So ultimately, no. We're giving up personal freedoms when we dont HAVE to. We can still be protected under what we have, but it needs to be tweaked, sure.

3. Abortion. For it? Against it? (Obvioulsy Im against it.)

4. Gays. Against? For? Marriage? This is a hot one....(and Ill tell ya, Im against gay marriage, so there. Crucify me, but that's me.)

5. Gun control. FOr it, and to what degree? against? (I think we ought to be able to own an M-16 if we want one. There are already class firearms licences in effect. So why change that? But if a responsible citizen wants to own one, he should be able to. Because criminals will always own them regardless. If you're truly against guns, you should be against alcohol, gambling, smoking as well. Otherwise, you're a fucking hypocrite. :) )

6. Drugs, legalization. How harmful is cocaine REALLY? We're talking about coke here, NOT heroine, crack, meth ect.,. SHould pot be legalized?

Certainly I think pot should be a legal medicine. I think it's awful that doctors get taken to jail for giving individuals who suffer the herbs to make the twilight years a little more pleasant....

Cocaine? Outlawed. Many will say those clog up our court systems, they'll point to prohibition, and the crime that stems from illegalization (is that a fucking word, even?). But morally, IMO, it has to be. It's too dangerous, too addictive.

7. Pre Emptive War. When, if ever, should it be possible?

If one was for the Iraq war in the beginning, which I supported, should then we do the same with North Korea? Iran? Very similar.

My answer was yes and no. I dont support the way the war with Iraq was executed, and thats different than supporting going, or a strike in general.

I dont support a strike on NK, because we know why they're posturing...theyre destitute...broke as a joke, they're trying to blackmail us into lifting sanctions, and they DO back down, for all their shittalk....Iran now? No, because of logistics only. We're too thin. But I do support Israel doing it for us, and for them. It could be devastating if they do in the long run, so I hope they DONT, and I hope it resolves its self diplomatically, but if they do, Ill have to support the decision......

Eh....what do some of you say? If anything?

[Hippiepoet]

Good topic.

As far as voting. I'm probably going with Obama. I do not consider myself any particular party, I vote for who I believe in. Who I think will best take care of this country's business. I do admit to being jaded by the whole system.

1. The economy, fuck Lieman. I'm pretty much in the doomsday mode these days. Shit is going to hell in a hand basket. I'm glad I reside on a farm an in a rural area. This country spends billions on ridiculous shit: "the war on drugs", financing other countries, financing war and war machines, big salaries for our political leaders....blah blah blah. I really get discouraged by the whole nine yards.

a. Globalism? scares me. Makes me think of one horrid ruler controlling all of the Earth. Scary. (yah maybe a little SciFi)

b. Immigration. Fuck I don't know. I say give the Natives back their land and we all go back to where we came from. It's like fuck me, where are peeps gonna go...eventually the entire world will be so overcrowded it will be pitiful? Again, I'm glad I live in bumfuck. I'd probably not survive in the city.:shocked3:

c. drilling at home. Fuck no. There are alternative fuels and we know it. We need to tap into those routes and quit tapping into the Earth. It's going to be gone one day, and we need to get used to that fact.

Other issues. shit fire.....I am very concerned about the environment. I think our main focus should be on preserving our Earth, before we have to start looking for a new rock to fucking kill off.

2. As far as the FISA bill, I know little and will need to investigate that further.
Wire tapping an individual, fuck that. Have we all really lost our own personal freedom, to speak to someone else in private? Holy fucking shit. One day I'm worried they'll implant us with a device to monitor our goddamn thoughts....we think bad shit, we're done for. I want to be left alone to rot in my own fucking house on my own fucking land. I don't know...tap the government offices....let's just start there and see how that one goes. Just a thought.

3. Abortion. It is my body. I don't want any laws telling me what to do with it. I do believe in abortion in the 1st trimester....I also believe if the baby is deformed, or there could be harm to the mother to continue a pregnancy, she should be allowed to terminate. I DO NOT think abortion should be a method of birth control, where a woman continually gets pregnant and terminates each time. Yes I've two children...and yes years ago, swallows hard, I had an abortion at 9 wks of pregnancy. My situation was horrible and I do not regret it. When I think about abortion....I think what if someone would have made me stay pregnant? What if I had no control over my body? That to me is damn scary.

4. Gays. Really to me....I could care less. I do not want someone to dictate to me as an human adult, what other human adult I can love, whether it be another man or woman or Russian or Chinese or Black or White.....whatever. I don't think I have any business telling someone....you cannot marry that person, because I say so. I feel no one else has that right either.

5. Gun Control. Hmmmmm tough one for me. Both my ex's owned guns. Mr Hip does not. I do believe responsible adults should own a gun for their protection.:spy:

6. Drugs. My belief and please don't throw shit at me....If you are an ADULT and you are in your OWN HOME, you are not harming anyone but YOURSELF...I don't give a fuck what people do.
Of course I am for legalization of marijuana because I look at it as medication. Plain and simple. If I didn't smoke and take all my pharmies, I'd probably be on the front page for offing a bunch of idiots.

7. The war debate. I hate war, but I also don't want to see innocent folks being slaughtered in genocidal situations. I think what we're doing in Iran/Iraq is fucked up. It is like beating a dead horse over there.

Now my head hurts from all this thinking. Thanks Lieman. ;) Again, I am glad I live where I do. I think the whole world is one mad damn place. I'd leave this rock if I could, but fuck, be my luck the next planet would have a bunch of crazies on it too. So for now, I'll stay here and maintain my hippie bubble 'round my farm.

[michelle]

I STILL DON'T FUCKING KNOW. Not happy with either. Will choose least of two evils. *heavy sigh*
Too much fucking government anyway.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Woah, excellent responses. Much more than I hoped for, so that was good reading, ladies. Awesome, awesome shit. Wish I had the time right now to go into it more, but I have enough to tell you that I sincerely enjoyed reading all that.

[SoUncool]

Oh yay! I can't wait to get home where I'll have more time to answer this (seeing that I'm at work!). Thanks Lieman for tossing this out there...

[Pete Bondurant]

You should drill for oil as well as developing nuclear power. The nation needs petroleum, period. There need to be refineries also.

Illegal immigration. Keep the good ones here, register them, take their fingerprints, DNA samples, give them a photo I.D. They can work here. They can have their family. If they want to become a citizen, they have to wait in line until after the last legal alien in line obtains citizenship before they apply. Deport the criminals.

Obama is a South-Side Chicago politician, which means that he's dirty. He's a fraud, a Marxist, a sheep in wolfs' clothing. You would have better luck letting Regis Philbin run the country.

[Athena]

Well, geez, Lieman...Just suck up a million threads in one, why don't you. Asshole. ;)

Where do you stand on:

1. Economy?

Boy, this is an open ended one. I'm for free markets, no protectionist tariffs, no government subsidy of industry, dramatically reduced government spending resulting in minimal tax collection. Lemme know if you want more than that.

a. Globalism? For it? Against it? If so, how?

All for globalism. The America we've created is a house of cards. Our industries are surviving because, in many cases, our government allows them to survive by falsely proping them up and unfairly stifling foreign imports. This, in turn, hurts the consumer. If I can choose to pay a dollar extra a pound for asparagus to get the stuff grown here, would. But I shouldn't be forced to pay extra. With the price of gas ever increasing, we should be encouraging efficiency in industry, which will drive down costs. Our industries should operate and succeed on their own merit, not simply because the government won't let them die.

That's just the economic benefit to globalism. There are lots more, but if I hope to answer all of these...

b. Immigration laws?

We need need flexible immigration laws that create a relatively quick path to naturalization. The fact of the matter is that these people are coming, one way or another. It would cost us more to hurd them and dispose of them than to encorporate them into our society, not to mention the human toll the former option would take.

c. Drilling at home?

Absolutely. I'm not so diluted as to suggest it's an answer to our problems, but, it could provide some relief while the market works on more sustainable energy. Synthetic petrol, perhaps? Furthermore, drilling has become more environmentally friendly than when such protections were established. We need not stand on ceremony any longer. Oh, and if you're still not convinced? Watch The Last Winter. Should be on the New Release wall at the movie store. It's such a bullshit piece of anti-drilling propaganda, it might anger you enough to take up my position.

d. Nuclear energy?

Again, absolutely. Although, this will be far more difficult to pull off than drilling. The market for nuclear energy is a tough one. It costs roughly $13 billion just to construct a plant, and private investors just aren't biting. Some say it's because of over-regulation. I think that's over simplified. Either way, as it stands currently, the nuclear industry has been and will continue to require massive subsidies...and we know how I feel about that. Still, if we could pull it off without it being paid for almost wholely by the government, I'll be all for it.

2. THe FISA bill? WHat defines patriotism, to a lesser degree? For the wire tapping bill?

The FISA bill, in it's original form, was okay, in my book. It complied with the constitutional requirement of warrants and only pertained to citizens having contact with "agents of foreign powers". What I'm not down with is how the Patriot Act expanded FISA powers to allow the government to collect data on anyone for any reason from libraries and ISP providers. Research into the event determined that the government's lack of data-mining authority did NOT factor into 9/11. So, ultimately, the government authorized for itself sweeping authority that it doesn't even require to keep us safe. Uncool.

Edit: I almost forgot the patriotism part. Geez. Well, some smart folks have said a worthy thing or two about it over the years...

Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president or any other public official... ~ Theodore Roosevelt

Patriotism consists not in waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous as well as strong. ~ James Bryce

True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else. ~ Clarence Darrow

In short, patriotism is a love for your country, not the agendas of politicians or the idolatry associated with commercialism (flags, fireworks, and ribbons can compliment patriotism, but do not define it).


3. Abortion. For it? Against it? (Obvioulsy Im against it.)

I'm for it unconditionally on the basis that an individual should have the ultimate decision-making capacity over his or her own body. Want to change sexes? Cut off a limb? Ingest caustic chemicals? Commit suicide? Do whatever you want, so long as it hurts no one else. Even if a fetus is viable, if it is still within a woman, it is effectively a part of her, subject to her decisions. All that being said, I recognize the government's interest in protecting life and their authority to regulate industry, so I don't take issue with time limits applied to the medical industry. 24 weeks is reasonable, and I could even deal with shortening that. Just so long as we don't try and prosecute those who take it into their own hands after that time period expires.

4. Gays. Against? For? Marriage?

I'm totally for gays. As for marriage, I don't believe the government should be regulating it at all. It's a religious ceremony, and the church and church alone should have the power to define marriage. The government should apply domestic partnerships to everyone, gay, straight or otherwise, if they want to establish benefit rights and such.

5. Gun control. For it, and to what degree? against?

I'm all for gun control that is proven to work. This doesn't mean slapping some regulation on and hoping for the best. Gun registry, thorough background checks, even educational programs is alright with me. I do not, on the other hand, support banning types of firearms. As far as I know, there has been no measurable benefit to banning automatic firearms, special bullets or handguns. It should all be legal, just well tracked.

6. Drugs, legalization. How harmful is cocaine REALLY? We're talking about coke here, NOT heroine, crack, meth ect.,. SHould pot be legalized?

Everything should be legal for consumption. Despite our multi-billion dollar drug war, and our tough anti-drug laws, the U.S. leads the world in illegal drug use. How far do we want to go to try and prevent bad stuff? The law was never meant to replace common sense. We should legalize and tax all of it. If coke causes someone to rape their neighbor, nail his balls to the wall, but leave the hundreds of thousands of casual, non-violent coke users the fuck alone. If these drugs cause people to do damage, incarcerate those who do damage. As is stands currently, we're letting violent offenders out because the prison system is too clogged with drug offenders. Incarceration is for VIOLENT people, not morally-questionable but harmless people.

Oh, and the word you were looking for was "criminalization", I do believe.

7. Pre Emptive War. When, if ever, should it be possible?

Never. "Pre-emptive" means just that - you're attacking a nation that has done nothing yet, simply because you believe they may do something. Now, I'm not saying we need to be attacked personally...If a country is showing aggression toward their neighbors, or even a populace within their own boundaries, and we feel we can effectively quell said disturbance, that's fine. But we should only extend our necks into war when a country is actually fucking up, not simply because we heard through the grapevine that they were planning to.

Phew. That was a lot.

Based on solely the information posted here, Lieman, you're a neo-con. But it's hard to say for sure without your thoughts on the economy. You could just as easily be a Rockefeller Republican.

[sherrz]

Where do you stand on:

1. Economy?

a. Globalism? For it? Against it? If so, how? I'm not even going to attempt to answer this, cause honestly I don't know a whole lot about that, and I don't want to pretend I do lol.

b. Immigration laws? It needs to be more regulated definitely, especially at times like this where we're in a recession (yes, I think we are in one.) Our economy is already crippled enough right now, and letting everyone and anyone in the country is going to hurt it even more.

c. Drilling at home? No way, it's not going to solve anything. We can drill all we want but we lack the refineries to really have it make any kind of effect on current prices.

d. Nuclear energy? I'm really not too sure about this one.


2. THe FISA bill? WHat defines patriotism, to a lesser degree? For the wire tapping bill? I honestly think that they should only be able to tap your phones if they are 100% convinced that you are a threat to the safety of our country. I don't think they should be allowed to listen to whoever they want, for whatever various reasons.

3. Abortion. For it? Against it? As a woman, I believe (like others) it's my body, and I don't want the government (or anyone for that matter) telling me what I can and can not do with it. I've already seen this typed out, but I feel abortion shouldn't be allowed to be used as a method of birth control. If it's a matter of life or death (for mother or child) or if the child will be born with serious problems, it's okay in my eyes. But I'm not for anything over the 1st trimester.

4. Gays. Against? For? Marriage? This is a hot one.... I'm all for gay marriage. I don't think the government should be able to tell you who you can and can't be with. If I want to be in love with and marry another girl, I should be able to do that, and my marriage should be seen as the same as any other marriage.

5. Gun control. FOr it, and to what degree? against? I'm for it to the point where you can't have guns in certain areas. (schools, airports, etc.) But other than that, I'm against it. I'm more about gun safety, not gun control. I don't think they should tell you what gun you can have and what gun you can't in your home.

6. Drugs, legalization. How harmful is cocaine REALLY? We're talking about coke here, NOT heroine, crack, meth ect.,. SHould pot be legalized? Cocaine is something that should be outlawed, I agree with you there Mr. Lieman. Coke is addictive as hell, and the potential health risks associated with cocaine use is extensive. I think marijuana should be legal for all purposes (it really isn't as anymore harmful for you than smoking a cigarette, I don't think), but if not for all purposes it should definitely be legal on a medicinal level. And it should be legal that way on a federal level, I have a cousin who uses medicinal MJ for his HIV and if he were to get busted by the Feds he would get prosecuted, but he wouldn't on the state level which I think is pure bullshit.

7. Pre Emptive War. When, if ever, should it be possible? I really don't like war (but who really does?) but if we're gonna go to war we should make sure that we're going over there for the right reasons, and that we have an actual agenda.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Phenominal stuff all around, people. All the pro globalism makes me cringe though.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by The Diabolical Mr. Lieman

Phenominal stuff all around, people. All the pro globalism makes me cringe though.

Why? Realistically, we're not talking a unified government. We're not even talking a unified type of government. We've already seen how difficult it is to convert types of government. If the most powerful military in the world can't do that, Microsoft or Samsung won't be able to do that any time soon.

The benefits of globalism far outweigh the negatives. Will we lose some national identity, when our major corporations can be found internationally and international corporations set up shop here? Have we yet? I don't think the amount is measurable, if any. As swivel accurately pointed out once upon a time, the more financially intertwined we are, the more difficult it will become to war with one another. We will be better able to settle disputes economically. Also, the cultural evolution that will likely happen with globalisation will be primarily good. Americans will become more worldly, more multi-lingual and less isolated. Peoples in other countries will likely become more modernized and American-friendly. How are these scary things?

I guess I just don't understand what is scary about globalism. Then again, I don't watch much sci-fi. :p

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Originally Posted by Athena

Why? Realistically, we're not talking a unified government. We're not even talking a unified type of government. We've already seen how difficult it is to convert types of government. If the most powerful military in the world can't do that, Microsoft or Samsung won't be able to do that any time soon.

The benefits of globalism far outweigh the negatives. Will we lose some national identity, when our major corporations can be found internationally and international corporations set up shop here? Have we yet? I don't think the amount is measurable, if any. As swivel accurately pointed out once upon a time, the more financially intertwined we are, the more difficult it will become to war with one another. We will be better able to settle disputes economically. Also, the cultural evolution that will likely happen with globalisation will be primarily good. Americans will become more worldly, more multi-lingual and less isolated. Peoples in other countries will likely become more modernized and American-friendly. How are these scary things?

I guess I just don't understand what is scary about globalism. Then again, I don't watch much sci-fi. :p

Please don't be silly.

Are you just going to continue quoting swivle all the time?

The world will become more modernized and american friendly? WHAT? Americans will be more "worldly"? Lady? What the FUCK are you on? We're one of the most WORLDY countries on Earth! Less isolated? Because of GLOBALISM? We're the goddamn melting pot, lady! This is going to make it harder on the lower economy class, and give more power to corporations. If you can't see what's scary about that, then I feel sorry for you. Don't just take what swivel says and run with it.

The world being run by big companies tends to worry me a bit, and Im sorry it doesnt you.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by The Diabolical Mr. Lieman

Please don't be silly.

Are you just going to continue quoting swivle all the time?

The world will become more modernized and american friendly? WHAT? Americans will be more "worldly"? Lady? What the FUCK are you on? We're one of the most WORLDY countries on Earth! Less isolated? Because of GLOBALISM? We're the goddamn melting pot, lady! This is going to make it harder on the lower economy class, and give more power to corporations. If you can't see what's scary about that, then I feel sorry for you. Don't just take what swivel says and run with it.

The world being run by big companies tends to worry me a bit, and Im sorry it doesnt you.

No, I just hate to plagerize. He said it best. I feel no need to reinvent the wheel.

There's a joke, Lieman. "Speaking three languages makes you multi-lingual. Speaking two makes you bi-lingual. Speaking one makes you American." And it's true. We may be "the goddamn melting pot", but lotta good it's done us educationally.

You make these statements as though they are fact. Care to tell me how it'll make things harder on the lower class, even though globalism drives down cost? Do you care to explain how corporations will gain more power? Or, better yet, why that's necessarily bad? There are quite a few huge, powerful, global companies out there, today. Care to use any of them to make an example of how globalism is bad?

Yeah, the world being run by corporations would worry me...If I thought it was actually going to happen...

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Originally Posted by Athena

No, I just hate to plagerize. He said it best. I feel no need to reinvent the wheel.

There's a joke, Lieman. "Speaking three languages makes you multi-lingual. Speaking two makes you bi-lingual. Speaking one makes you American." And it's true. We may be "the goddamn melting pot", but lotta good it's done us educationally.

You make these statements as though they are fact. Care to tell me how it'll make things harder on the lower class, even though globalism drives down cost? Do you care to explain how corporations will gain more power? Or, better yet, why that's necessarily bad? There are quite a few huge, powerful, global companies out there, today. Care to use any of them to make an example of how globalism is bad?

Yeah, the world being run by corporations would worry me...If I thought it was actually going to happen...

Swivel didn't invent the wheel in this case, though. I guess, just tell me what you think instead of saying: "Like swivel says". I'm not asking you to re-invent the wheel. You could save time by saying it, without adding that he says it, so it must be so.


Anyway, sheesh, Athena. It drives down cost, but you think that's helping AMERICAN ECONOMY? Do you think Wal Mart has stimulated american jobs, and promoted small business?? Do you think Nafta has helped the USA?

Care to tell me how Globalism HELPS Americans?

And damn. Asking me to give one example on how globalism gives corporations more pwoer? Are...you...serious?......Globalism is free market, right? It's the de-regulation of international trade...we're helping big companies get exactly what they want, without having to stay honest. Its an excuse for the major shareholders, the bigger corporations out there to lift tariffs, ignore national boundaries, so that we can move shop internationally. So that big companies can move their jobs overseas so that people will work for less. Yes, it'll drive down cost of things...but it'll cripple American jobs, and cripple wages scales. Our labor is being deVALUED here. American jobs moved overseas, because others work for pennies. All this does is fre corporations from national protection laws. Our unions are suffering, thus hurting the middle class American. It's making it harder for Americans to get good jobs with good pay, and with globalism continuing to grow, we're going to have to take less money to keep jobs in America, with lesser health packages, lesser pay, ect.,.

Overall, the shareholders are going to go where it's cheapest. This is sparking world competition, and with poor countries and poorer areas with interest, American workers will lose out, and like MY business had to do, to compete with illegal workers, WORK FOR LESS.

I understand the opinions on globalism can be stratified, and I'll grant you that it could hinder wars....whats that old saying? No two countries with a McDonalds have gone to war with each other"? Even though that's not true anymore, the point is there to be made. But war is war, and pretty much throughout history, you can trace war back to where the money is, and I can't see that changing.

What, back in the 50s and 60s, didn't the big companies carry almost 40% of the tax burden? Now what, less than 10% And now, we're lifting any tariff, tax, protection law just to buy a can of coup 13 cents cheaper? Yet our wages haven't lifted in forever, and our economy is at it's knees.

Clinton sung NAFTA's praises at one time....how's that working out for us?

Ya know....a buddy of yours had a poor opinion of globalism at one time...his name was Ron Paul, or something like that....