Rights of Healthcare Workers > Rights of Women

[polis]

Currently the Bush Administration has proposed new rules that would provide protection to doctors and other healthcare workers that are against abortion.
hhs.unr.edu/ncehp/docs/Pharmacistconscienceclauses.doc I understand that people should not do something they do not believe in, as I would not fight in a war. However, what are the limits when it comes to those in the medical profession?

In a small town, known as Fabens, the local pharmacist refused to fill an order of birth control, or carry EC because it was against his beliefs. This town only has one pharmacy, and the closest one is an hour away (car wise)and many like her that live in Fabens don't have the means to transportation. This of course is not the first instance of a woman being denied getting her prescription fill.http://http://www.prochoicetexas.org...00412261.shtml

The underlying laws deal mainly with abortion and sterilization, but both the laws and the language of the rule seem to recognize that objections on conscience grounds could involve other types of services.

"This regulation does not limit patient access to health care, but rather protects any individual health care provider or institution from being compelled to participate in, or from being punished for refusal to participate in, a service that, for example, violates their conscience," the rule said.



Since this is so vague, the possibility of women in the future
being limited in their rights to manage their own healthcare.

Do you think doctors and other healthcare workers should be allowed protection to refuse services? Should be there be a boundary as to where they can't say no?

[Pete Bondurant]

While I generally support abortions for non-caucasian people, as well as sterilisation, I have no sympathy for anyone who finds themselves in this situation, male or female. In this day and age, unless one is raped, one has to be a complete and utter chop to find themselves in such a condition.

[carol13]

My husband and I have discussed this one. He's mostly pro-life, and I'm pro-choice. Even though we come from opposite ends of this scale, we see this in quite the same way. He thinks it's better for a woman who clearly does NOT want a baby to be able to prevent a conception or terminate the possibility of a child (morning after), rather than getting an abortion later. I agree on this. The issue of whether or not a pharmacist has the right to say no to a prescription, I think is up to them. I also think it's up to the company to be able to fire them. I don't think they should be able to claim religious persecution (which they would.) If they are not capable of performing the task set before them, filling prescriptions, they should not contunue to hold that job. If a bricklayer worked for a company who got a contract to rebuild a wall at a Jewish cemetary, but he hates Jews and refused, he would be replaced. It's a job not a pulpit, and if someone is unwilling to complete their work for whatever reason, they need to consider their other options.

[Athena]

I do believe that a health care workers should be able to refused products or services for religious reasons, except when such things are medically necessary.

I don't believe this is an issue of right vs. right. Health care is not a "right". I also think something like this should encourage awareness and personal responsibility. Know what kind of community you live in, know what your options are and live your life accordingly. If you live in Ponce De Leon, don't go sleeping around and get yourself knocked up since you know your hick-ass pharmacist probably won't help you out.

Oh, and there are always condoms.

[Boondock]

I agree with Athena.

I would also like to make a quick comment on 2 of the analogies used in your first link:

One case involved a nurse, employed by a maternity ward who, refused to scrub in for an emergency caesarian section and left a woman standing in a pool of blood for 30 minutes. In another case, a police officer refused to guard an abortion clinic.

I think these are piss poor analogies for the author to use. What religion doesn't allow a caesarian section? (if there is one, I really would like to know so I can avoid joining it) Either way, leaving a woman standing in a pool of blood for 30 minutes with no medical help is ridiculous no matter what your religious affiliations are. (and being a health care worker, I have to believe that the account was exaggerated)

And while most Christian are prolifers, that should also cover the lives of anyone in that abortion clinic no matter what their ideologies. There's no interpretation of the Bible that covers people for bombing these clinics. Therefore, the cop should have performed his duties accordingly. He was not handing the abortionists their instruments or even encouraging the clients to go forward with their plans. He would simply be protecting lives from a terrorist attack.

(it's after my bedtime, so forgive me if this post is a bit disjointed and littered with odd punctuation and parenthesis useage)

Just out of curiosity (and way off topic) to Athena: do you always argue for what you believe in, or do you sometimes just pick a side and go for it simply to argue and because you can? Please don't take that as me being snotty, I'm genuinely curious - mainly because my boyfriend accuses me of doing that all the time :)

[celtic friend]

I do believe that a health care workers should be able to refused products or services for religious reasons, except when such things are medically necessary.

I don't believe this is an issue of right vs. right. Health care is not a "right". I also think something like this should encourage awareness and personal responsibility. Know what kind of community you live in, know what your options are and live your life accordingly. If you live in Ponce De Leon, don't go sleeping around and get yourself knocked up since you know your hick-ass pharmacist probably won't help you out.

Oh, and there are always condoms.

Not everyone who takes birth control pills takes them for contraceptive purposes.
They also help regulate your period. One can even have their tubes tied and still need some sort of BC to stop their period.
So let me say I would be pretty darn pissed if someone made me drive an extra 1 hour away when I really needed those pills.

[Athena]

Heh. The vast majority of the time, I advocate positions that are in line with my actual beliefs. I'm a left-leaning libertarian. On rare occasion, however, I'll play devil's advocate. There's nothing like arguing a position inconsistant with your beliefs to keep you sharp. It's a residual effect of my many years in debate.

In order to compete with a particular argument, we would have to first prove in class that we could argue the opposite position effectively. This would allow us to spot the failures of any given perspective from the inside, after extensive research and consideration, rather than having to do it on your toes as your opponent wages their argument. You are able to anticipate the points they'll make and you've already developed a defense against them.

...and, sometimes I'll argue perspectives just to rile people up. Debates are no fun when they lack passion. ;)

[Athena]

Not everyone who takes birth control pills takes them for contraceptive purposes.
They also help regulate your period. One can even have their tubes tied and still need some sort of BC to stop their period.
So let me say I would be pretty darn pissed if someone made me drive an extra 1 hour away when I really needed those pills.

If you were that pissed, perhaps you could discuss with your doctor the possibility of having the prescription shipped to the office. If not, you might consider moving to a community that would better accommodate your needs. However, your convenience should not trump ones freedom to exercise religious practices.

[brokenandtwisted]

I do believe that a health care workers should be able to refused products or services for religious reasons, except when such things are medically necessary.

I don't believe this is an issue of right vs. right. Health care is not a "right". I also think something like this should encourage awareness and personal responsibility. Know what kind of community you live in, know what your options are and live your life accordingly. If you live in Ponce De Leon, don't go sleeping around and get yourself knocked up since you know your hick-ass pharmacist probably won't help you out.

Oh, and there are always condoms.

Indeed, and we reserve that right in our code of ethics. It's long, boring, but we don't have to do what we don't want to. Find another doctor in my opinion, or, as Athena stated, have the medication shipped.

[celtic friend]

If you were that pissed, perhaps you could discuss with your doctor the possibility of having the prescription shipped to the office. If not, you might consider moving to a community that would better accommodate your needs. However, your convenience should not trump ones freedom to exercise religious practices.

Maybe one should chose a profession that fits their religious beliefs better?
I also thankfully live in an area where there are no shortage of drug stores.
I think maybe the community should rise up and demand there be another pharmacist or closer access to these medicines. One person should not have that much control over someone else. I know you are going to say, they don't have control, you can move etc. I hear what you are saying.

[celtic friend]

Indeed, and we reserve that right in our code of ethics. It's long, boring, but we don't have to do what we don't want to. Find another doctor in my opinion, or, as Athena stated, have the medication shipped.

Shipped where? You might need it right away. You can't plan EVERYTHING in your life.
You can't know that Joe Pharmacist is a Christian and doesnt give out BC, if you have never been in the situation before. You might need a medicine after hours and quickly.

[Athena]

Maybe one should chose a profession that fits their religious beliefs better?
I also thankfully live in an area where there are no shortage of drug stores.
I think maybe the community should rise up and demand there be another pharmacist or closer access to these medicines. One person should not have that much control over someone else. I know you are going to say, they don't have control, you can move etc. I hear what you are saying.

Oh, yeah, in that respect, you're absolutely right. The market should demand a pharmacist that suits its needs. But that can take some time. In the meantime, people generally have options.

And, yes, on a personal level, I think it's absolutely ridiculous for someone to go into a line of work that may put them at odds with their values, or their values may prevent them from fulfilling their purpose entirely. It's why I dropped my last doctor. But, retarded or not, people do it...and those people deserve the right to be douches, since they aren't actively hurting anyone.

[brokenandtwisted]

Shipped where? You might need it right away. You can't plan EVERYTHING in your life.
You can't know that Joe Pharmacist is a Christian and doesnt give out BC, if you have never been in the situation before. You might need a medicine after hours and quickly.

:he:

Although we are in the services, we are not there to bend to your every whim. We don't have to do what we don't want to...I think even Athena stated we're into lawyers up our ass. Why would I make you do what you don't want to? Would you do it? I doubt it.

Get it shipped to your house. Plan ahead of time...because yes, medication is one thing you do plan EVERYTHING for.

[Just my luck sucks]

I believe if an RX is legally prescribed by a doctor then a pharmacist should be legally required to fill the prescription.

Otherwise the pharmacist should look for a new line of work.

Next we will have pharmacist's refusing to fill prescriptions for those being treated for cancer or some such serious ailment because their belief is that such illnesses are better left in the hands of "God".

[Athena]

Shipped where? You might need it right away. You can't plan EVERYTHING in your life.
You can't know that Joe Pharmacist is a Christian and doesnt give out BC, if you have never been in the situation before. You might need a medicine after hours and quickly.

That's just the thing, though. Birth control is rarely, if ever, an emergency need. You can't plan everything, but one should certainly be able to plan birth control.

If I had a doctor who will prescribe it but a pharmacy that will not carry it, I would ask my doctor if he or she would be able or interested in keeping it in the office for me. I'd imagine most doctors would be accommodating.

[brokenandtwisted]

Next we will have pharmacist's refusing to fill prescriptions for those being treated for cancer or some such serious ailment because their belief is that such illnesses are better left in the hands of "God".

:rofl2: :rofl2:

That is awesome...but sorry, they'd be out of work.

[Athena]

Next we will have pharmacist's refusing to fill prescriptions for those being treated for cancer or some such serious ailment because their belief is that such illnesses are better left in the hands of "God".

"Medically necessary", JMLS. That's an important phrase. Cancer treatment is medically necessary. The failure to treat results in death for the patient. As a result, pharmacists have to prescribe such things. Birth control is not medically necessary. As a result, pharmacists have a choice. Almost like a cosmetic surgeon who won't perform breast lifts for personal reasons.

[Just my luck sucks]

Adolescent girls and young women are frequently prescribed oral contraceptive pills for irregular or absent menstrual periods, menstrual cramps, acne, PMS, endometriosis, and hormone replacement therapy. For example, girls diagnosed with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS) (a hormone imbalance which causes irregular menstrual periods, acne, and excess hair growth) are prescribed oral contraceptives to lower their hormone levels back to normal and regulate menstrual periods. Girls with acne that is not responding to simple measures are often prescribed hormone pills. Girls whose ovaries are not producing enough estrogen (because of anorexia nervosa, excessive exercise, or damage to the ovaries from radiation or chemotherapy) often take oral contraceptive pills to replace estrogen. Girls with endometriosis are also often prescribed oral contraceptives, in cycles or continuously, to suppress the condition.

"Medically necessary" I maintain a pharmacist that won’t dispense a legal prescription should find a new line of work.

[brokenandtwisted]

Adolescent girls and young women are frequently prescribed oral contraceptive pills for irregular or absent menstrual periods, menstrual cramps, acne, PMS, endometriosis, and hormone replacement therapy. For example, girls diagnosed with Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS) (a hormone imbalance which causes irregular menstrual periods, acne, and excess hair growth) are prescribed oral contraceptives to lower their hormone levels back to normal and regulate menstrual periods. Girls with acne that is not responding to simple measures are often prescribed hormone pills. Girls whose ovaries are not producing enough estrogen (because of anorexia nervosa, excessive exercise, or damage to the ovaries from radiation or chemotherapy) often take oral contraceptive pills to replace estrogen. Girls with endometriosis are also often prescribed oral contraceptives, in cycles or continuously, to suppress the condition.

"Medically necessary" I maintain a pharmacist that won’t dispense a legal prescription should find a new line of work.

PCOS is not life-threatening, although it is necessary it is not going to threaten your life. In addition to that, the prescription will direct you to a local pharmacist. The doctor prescribing it will know if the pharmacist doesn't hand out birth control, and will list a different one. This is really just hypersensitivity and laziness. I cannot think of a single ailment that would kill you without birth control.

Comparing cancer medication to birth control is truly incomprehensible.

[Just my luck sucks]

B&T we will just have to agree to disagree on this one.

My beliefs include employees just shutting the fuck up and doing what they are paid to do, otherwise find other employment. (Illegal/deceptive/corrupt activities are not in my definition of employees/employment)

Allowing employees to chose bits and pieces of their jobs to suit their personal value systems or personal beliefs leaves too many loopholes, it begins with employee A stating they have an issue with dispensing X pill or doing X task.

It’s the old give them an inch saying…Then progresses over time that if A doesn’t have to do XYZ, then employee B doesn’t have to do ABC.

JMO- no one has to like it (unless you work for me:) )

[celtic friend]

I don't believe JMLS was really comparing it to cancer.
I believe this poster was just pointing out that not all birth control is just for birth control. But I have a feeling you knew that.

[brokenandtwisted]

Well, there's quite a bit that we cannot do...but we're protected because what we believe in, and our morals+principles and ethics can effect performance. If you wanted a doctor who had no bias, opinion and complete neutrality they'd be a robot...sorry, that's how it is. Medicine is an ethical matter and those who practice it will have varying opinions...the code of ethics is simply a guideline and rather gray, but it must be upheld.

For example...I am pro-choice and support euthanasia. I wouldn't ever assist someone in suicide because it's illegal, but if it weren't, things would be different. But we can agree to disagree. ;)

[Athena]

I maintain a pharmacist that won’t dispense a legal prescription should find a new line of work.

My sister suffers from PCOS and an aggressive case of endometriosis. She's undergone multiple surgeries for the latter condition, and was prescribed birth control, as well as other medications, to treat these conditions.

I've seen it first hand, but it is not medically necessary, as Brokenandtwisted pointed out.

While I appreciate your opinion, I find it to be entirely too rigid. Would you say the same about a defense lawer who refuses to take pedophilia cases on personal grounds?

[Just my luck sucks]

While I appreciate your opinion, I find it to be entirely too rigid. Would you say the same about a defense lawer who refuses to take pedophilia cases on personal grounds?

If he owns his own practice he can make the choice to take the case or not.

If he is a staff attorney at a firm, and the case is assigned to him. Then yes, he must take it or otherwise he needs to find other employment.

Yeah, I have my heels dug in, and can be pretty bull headed regarding employment issues.

[Concerned Citizen]

I agree with part about not performing an abortion if your beliefs stipulate otherwise, but not filling a prescrip for birth control? Nuh-uh.

There are too may atrocities that can be suffered by a baby born into a family where it was unwanted. Don't punish people for trying to take responsibility before an accident takes place.

[MOGal]

Oh, yeah, in that respect, you're absolutely right. The market should demand a pharmacist that suits its needs. But that can take some time. In the meantime, people generally have options.

And, yes, on a personal level, I think it's absolutely ridiculous for someone to go into a line of work that may put them at odds with their values, or their values may prevent them from fulfilling their purpose entirely. It's why I dropped my last doctor. But, retarded or not, people do it...and those people deserve the right to be douches, since they aren't actively hurting anyone.

Wow,...you really don't believe that all docs who refuse to prescribe emergency contraception or preform abortions are douches! I live in the Midwest,.right in the middle of the bible belt,.while I don't share their beliefs,.I work in an ER with 3 docs who won't prescribe EC. It's really not a problem,.if the pt requests it he just has someone else write the order. This is probably the only medication we will dispense home with a pt because there are several pharmacies who refuse to fill it. No big deal here, we work around it. I have also worked with nurses who are JW and won't hang blood, again no biggie I hang it for them and go on.

Non of the above health care workers would ever deny emergency/lifesaving treatment for any reason! I do belive that if for some strange reason the JW witness happened to be the only nurse in the hospital when a pt needed blood she would hang it,.not that that would ever happen.

[Athena]

Wow,...you really don't believe that all docs who refuse to prescribe emergency contraception or preform abortions are douches!

The abortion thing is different. Generally speaking, those who are uncomfortable providing abortions simply don't go into the business of performing abortions. Not all doctors perform abortions. On the other hand, all pharmacists are likely to be asked to dispense birth control at some point or another and, yes...On a personal level, I believe that anyone who allows religious belief to interfere with their job is a douche.

Then again, I'm an atheist who does not live in the Midwest. Not that being surrounded by them would necessarily increase my level of tolerance.

I realize it's not a big deal, most of the time. My general problem with it is that these people selectively choose which tenents to adhere to. Okay, so they won't prescribe birth control, but they had premarital sex and they're on their second divorce.

For the majority of religious people in this country, their faith is guided by their convenience, and it's a load of crap.

[polis]

I don't think this just occurs in the midwest, I listed the city Fabens, which is in the southwest.

I do not think pharmacists should be granted the same protection as doctor who refuses abortion. The main job of a pharmacist is to issue out prescriptions, and a doctor's job is make people better. Sure, some people may say abortions can make people healthy, but in most circumstances, it doesn't make the person better healthwise.

A soldier enlists knowing he may have to go to war and fight. A pharmacist should know that they are going into a field where they fill prescriptions of all kinds. Now imagine if we allowed every soldier to put down their arms every time he/she felt it went against their principles, beliefs and views.

I also do not believe that ANYONE should speak for an entire group (i.e. doctors, military, blondes, canadians, etc), especially if you are not fully qualified to do so.

It was mentioned that if these women didn't like these circumstances to leave the community? That is so, umm.. stupid and in most cases, unreasonable and unachievable. I don't think a woman would feel comfortable uprooting her whole family to an entirely different city so she can't get birth control. I don't think a 17 year old or young adult has the funds to relocate at the drop of a hat. I think it is pretty ridiculous a suggestion like that would be made up.

These pharmacists that own their own shops that refuse can be reported to the BB. The ones at big stores like Walgreens can be fired because, last I read, it goes against store policy. This new "law" wasn't really created to ensure the rights of medical workers, but to make it harder for someone to go against the conservative viewpoint (off subject, conservative doesn't always mean republican ;) ).

I know the article about the Fabens situation did not provide the whole story, but the pharmacist refused to assist her in transferring the prescription to another pharmacy, he lectured her about his views. She just had a baby not that long before the doctor told her to get on birth control (don't know the reason why). Now imagine if a single, young adult goes in for EC and this asshole does the same crap to this kid, do you think she is going to want to travel over an hour to another pharmacy and possibly face the treatment? Not all women who need EC were unprotected while having sex, condoms break, or some are really want to ensure they don't have a child, or they forgot to take BC. Contraceptives are nothing like abortion.

If the damn pharmacist can issue out viagra, his ass should have no problem issuing out birth control.

[Boondock]

I don't really feel up to responding to your whole post just now, but I did want to point out one small thing about this portion:

Not all women who need EC were unprotected while having sex, condoms break, or some are really want to ensure they don't have a child, or they forgot to take BC. Contraceptives are nothing like abortion.

You're right, contraceptives are nothing like abortion. However, for people who believe that life begins at conception, EC (which I am assuming is the morning after pill) is abortion.

[Athena]

It was mentioned that if these women didn't like these circumstances to leave the community? That is so, umm.. stupid and in most cases, unreasonable and unachievable. I don't think a woman would feel comfortable uprooting her whole family to an entirely different city so she can't get birth control. I don't think a 17 year old or young adult has the funds to relocate at the drop of a hat. I think it is pretty ridiculous a suggestion like that would be made up.

Everyone has multiple options. Moving was just one of them and, yes, the least convenient. I would recommend to a 17 year old to ask her prescribing doctor to have them shipped to the office, or buy a damn box of condoms. Of course, abstinence is always an option.

These pharmacists that own their own shops that refuse can be reported to the BB. The ones at big stores like Walgreens can be fired because, last I read, it goes against store policy. This new "law" wasn't really created to ensure the rights of medical workers, but to make it harder for someone to go against the conservative viewpoint (off subject, conservative doesn't always mean republican ;) ).

They can be reported, but the BBB ain't gonna do a goddamn thing because the pharmacist is well within his or her right. As for big pharmacies, I'm not sure, but I bet a fired pharmacist could sue for religous discrimination. I don't know, though. I'd be interested to see how that would work out.