Sunbathers Bask Next To Child Corpses

**Unamused Cat** · July 21st, 2008, 11:48 PM

This is disgusting.

Shocking photos of sunbathers on an Italian beach soaking up the rays next to a pair of covered child corpses have Italians reeling.

The bodies of two drowned Roma children, Cristina Ibramovic, 15, and Viola Ibramovic, 13, lie covered by towels on an Italian beach for an hour while sunbathers carry on, unfazed, on a beach near Naples, Italy.

The nonchalant beachgoers carried on Saturday as if nothing were amiss, ignoring that two children from the Roma ethnic group had drowned, ostensibly before their eyes.

The two girls, identified as Cristina Ibramovic, 15, and Viola Ibramovic, 13, were selling trinkets on the Torregaveta beach near Naples, in southern Italy, according to the Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

They decided, along with their cousin and a friend, to go for a swim in a stormy sea.

Strong currents swept the girls far from shore and, despite rescue efforts, two of them died, according to witnesses.

Their bodies were carried ashore, laid out on the beach and left in the sun until the emergency services arrived.

"We picked up the bodies amid total indifference," the ambulance driver who went to collect the bodies told La Repubblica.

People were eating lunch only a few feet away from the dead girls.

Rest of story and pics. http://abcnews.go.com/International/...5418811&page=1

**Gilbrit** · July 22nd, 2008, 12:12 AM

That post is very disturbing.
To hear a group people not giving a damn is so different from seeing a group of people not give a damn.
Their Momma's loved them.....

**Unamused Cat** · July 22nd, 2008, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Gilbrit

That post is very disturbing.
To hear a group people not giving a damn is so different from seeing a group of people not give a damn.
Their Momma's loved them.....

I couldn't bring myself to post a photo of this. People really disappoint me. :(

**Gilbrit** · July 22nd, 2008, 01:40 AM

Good call, Unamused Cat.
Let people follow the link if they want to see it.
I wouldn't have been so bothered by the photo if I did not see the living people in the picture. That part really bothered me.
Hey, keep up the good work. I know you see and read a lot more before you publish it. Your strength is enviable.

**funnymommy** · July 22nd, 2008, 09:36 AM

That is horrible! Wtf is wrong with people? I would have had to be taken home in tears! Those poor little girls. Their families will see the photos of people who are totally oblivious to their pain; how awful!

**michelle** · July 22nd, 2008, 09:53 AM

any death+any family outing= we go home

**impqueen** · July 22nd, 2008, 11:58 AM

We've had so many stories lately of people who didn't intervene when a child was being hurt; how is this really any different? Horrid. We as a race of beings have become so self-involved, so unconcerned with the plights of others that getting a tan is more important than respect for dead children. It's disgusting.

**impqueen** · July 22nd, 2008, 12:01 PM

and another thing.. how much of this really is due to racism? that makes it even worse.

**Athena** · July 22nd, 2008, 12:15 PM

Yeah...People want to bitch about racism in the U.S.?

Welcome to the world outside our borders, folks, where ethnicities are still being violently persecuted. The Roma (Gypsy) population in Europe is seen as such a scourge that violence directed at them is not uncommon. In Italy, the prejudice is arguably the worst in Europe, with Nationalist leaders gaining popularity for promising to rid the nation of Roma. It's tragic, and it makes me thankful for being born within the U.S. We're far from flawless, but I'd like to believe that we, as a society, guard against such blatant and destructive racism targeted at single ethnicities.

That being said -

I would once again assert that we have not become self-involved, but that we have been this way all along. If anything, we are getting better about it. If we were ever better than we are currently regarding the plight of others, our history would have been vastly different. If people cared more about their fellow man than we do now, everything would reflect that, from local legislation to episodes of genocide. But, despite these isolated incidents, if we step back and look at the big picture, all the evidence points to increased compassion, not the other way around.

**Pete Bondurant** · July 22nd, 2008, 05:15 PM

There is no pity for the gypsy in Europa. They are not viewed as human beings at all, but rather like vermin.

**Unamused Cat** · July 22nd, 2008, 05:52 PM

Originally Posted by Gilbrit

Good call, Unamused Cat.
Let people follow the link if they want to see it.
I wouldn't have been so bothered by the photo if I did not see the living people in the picture. That part really bothered me.
Hey, keep up the good work. I know you see and read a lot more before you publish it. Your strength is enviable.

Thanks Gilbrit. :)

**angelia** · July 22nd, 2008, 06:14 PM

If it had been an animal, I would be disturbed and leave. The fact that it was children seems so disgusting. How could someone, anyone, just stay there?

**ImmortalOne** · July 22nd, 2008, 07:15 PM

Originally Posted by impqueen

and another thing.. how much of this really is due to racism? that makes it even worse.

Being of the Rromany lineage myself (and also Mr IO as well) and knowing the history between Italians and the Rroma, I am not surprised. Especially knowing how they are treated in Italy (oddly enough my father is actually Sicilian and Rromany).

Welcome to the world outside our borders, folks, where ethnicities are still being violently persecuted. The Roma (Gypsy) population in Europe is seen as such a scourge that violence directed at them is not uncommon. In Italy, the prejudice is arguably the worst in Europe, with Nationalist leaders gaining popularity for promising to rid the nation of Roma. It's tragic, and it makes me thankful for being born within the U.S. We're far from flawless, but I'd like to believe that we, as a society, guard against such blatant and destructive racism targeted at single ethnicities.

Don't get me started on the history and the prosecution of the Rromany people (It is two R's not a single one please). There is a long history behind so many things against the Rroma, and not the least is pretty or "romantic". the persecution that is seen in Europe is because of blatant ignorance and out right racism. Period. They feel that a people who is secretive must be bad and wrong, yet it pushes the secrets that much further. So much that many young Rroma have lost much of their family history and traditions.

Oh and right under your nose, in your local governments of the USA... There are many Rromany here in the USA, however there aren't nearly as many as overseas. However the population here in the USA has even been targeted by police departments and courts have "okayed" profiling against us. Even offering police officers classes on "How to Identify Gypies"... Which is certainly sickening.

The problem is widespread, far and wide across Europe. the Swed's stole Rroma children and "adopted" them out to Italian families trying to unbred "Gypies" (which btw, is a negative term for those that don't know). More so they were sold, sometimes for only pennies. Hitler killed many of our people, 2nd only to the Jewish population. In other countries the water sources of our people are deliberately poisoned by governments trying to kill off Rromany.

... I will save the rant, I am very protective of my people... While I am happy that this at least made headlines, which means someone might actually give a damn somewhere. I am saddened at the loss of such young life and no one gave a damn because of their heritage.

**Gilbrit** · July 22nd, 2008, 08:50 PM

Questions are now bing asked in relation to the drowning deaths of the two Rromany girls.

The civil liberties group EveryOne said it was unconvinced by reports of the incident at Torregaveta and asked whether there might be something more sinister behind it.
A statement from the group said: "Two young Roma would never have left their scant merchandise for 'a refreshing dip' in the waves. Two Gypsy girls would never have gone bathing in full view of everyone because of the modesty that is one of their distinguishing characteristics."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/21/italy.race

**ImmortalOne** · July 23rd, 2008, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Gilbrit

Questions are now bing asked in relation to the drowning deaths of the two Rromany girls.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/21/italy.race

Exactly great points to make. Excellent actually. They wouldn't have done it on a public beach, especially without others around. More over the beliefs in cleanliness of the body and such... old beliefs being that you don't bath near others, where food is, etc. It might be me being jaded after all the shit I've seen here on DD and know about how Rroma are treated world wide... but I have to believe someone killed those girls. Assuming they were thieves or what not. Probably the same people who weren't but 50 feet away.

**SNOOKIE** · July 23rd, 2008, 10:20 AM

cheese and fucking rice-that is so fucked up

**Athena** · July 23rd, 2008, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by ImmortalOne

Being of the Rromany lineage myself (and also Mr IO as well) and knowing the history between Italians and the Rroma, I am not surprised. Especially knowing how they are treated in Italy (oddly enough my father is actually Sicilian and Rromany).

Don't get me started on the history and the prosecution of the Rromany people (It is two R's not a single one please). There is a long history behind so many things against the Rroma, and not the least is pretty or "romantic". the persecution that is seen in Europe is because of blatant ignorance and out right racism. Period. They feel that a people who is secretive must be bad and wrong, yet it pushes the secrets that much further. So much that many young Rroma have lost much of their family history and traditions.

Oh and right under your nose, in your local governments of the USA... There are many Rromany here in the USA, however there aren't nearly as many as overseas. However the population here in the USA has even been targeted by police departments and courts have "okayed" profiling against us. Even offering police officers classes on "How to Identify Gypies"... Which is certainly sickening.

The problem is widespread, far and wide across Europe. the Swed's stole Rroma children and "adopted" them out to Italian families trying to unbred "Gypies" (which btw, is a negative term for those that don't know). More so they were sold, sometimes for only pennies. Hitler killed many of our people, 2nd only to the Jewish population. In other countries the water sources of our people are deliberately poisoned by governments trying to kill off Rromany.

... I will save the rant, I am very protective of my people... While I am happy that this at least made headlines, which means someone might actually give a damn somewhere. I am saddened at the loss of such young life and no one gave a damn because of their heritage.

The Roma are suffering from two things, their nomadic tendencies and the stigma, which is partly self-perpetuated, associated with their culture.

Yes, Roma music, dance and food is beautiful. But there's a darkside to the Roma culture that includes theft and drug use. The Roma move into areas refusing to assimilate and, instead, often choose to scavenge off their surroundings.

My friend Jessica and I discussed the Roma at great length last evening. Not only has she been to Romania multiple times, she studied in Prague for a year during college. If you have casual contact with the Roma while in Europe, you're not likely to think highly of them.

Do they teach their generations how to pick pocket and such out of necessity, or because they have foolishly adopted it as part of their culture? I think Jessica put it best last night when she said, "The Roma want to stay true to who they are, but who they are is detrimental to everyone around them." Granted, that's a pretty sweeping generalization, but there's a reason Gypsies are so strongly associated with theft and swindling. Certainly, it's not entirely their fault, but refusing to assimilate WILL perpetuate persecution. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

**Pete Bondurant** · July 23rd, 2008, 05:09 PM

Originally Posted by ImmortalOne

However the population here in the USA has even been targeted by police departments and courts have "okayed" profiling against us. Even offering police officers classes on "How to Identify Gypies"... Which is certainly sickening.

Sickening? I say; more like necessary. :spy:

**ImmortalOne** · July 23rd, 2008, 10:51 PM

Originally Posted by Athena

The Roma are suffering from two things, their nomadic tendencies and the stigma, which is partly self-perpetuated, associated with their culture.

Yes, Roma music, dance and food is beautiful. But there's a darkside to the Roma culture that includes theft and drug use. The Roma move into areas refusing to assimilate and, instead, often choose to scavenge off their surroundings.

My friend Jessica and I discussed the Roma at great length last evening. Not only has she been to Romania multiple times, she studied in Prague for a year during college. If you have casual contact with the Roma while in Europe, you're not likely to think highly of them.

Do they teach their generations how to pick pocket and such out of necessity, or because they have foolishly adopted it as part of their culture? I think Jessica put it best last night when she said, "The Roma want to stay true to who they are, but who they are is detrimental to everyone around them." Granted, that's a pretty sweeping generalization, but there's a reason Gypsies are so strongly associated with theft and swindling. Certainly, it's not entirely their fault, but refusing to assimilate WILL perpetuate persecution. It's a pretty vicious cycle.

It isn't about "Assimilation" it is about a small community who has protected certain ways of life, beliefs, and so forth in an attempt to stop outsiders from destroying what is important to them. Also, drug use is actually frowned upon by the Rromany community. It is not readily acceptable behavior. Scavaging is a way of life for many yes - however circumstances have forced such behaviors because of laws in place that refuse those of the Rromany community education or respectable jobs. One of the most important things to any Rromany is their family, we are raised with respect of our elders and their wisdom, to cherish our children and the blessing it is to bring them into this world, and so much more.

Think of what happened to the Native American's, and how they were forced into other aspects of living, how many were slaughtered at the hands of others because they were viewed as "savages". Or being hunted down by governments who make specific laws against the Rroma and where they are and are not allowed to thrive. Very few other ethnicities have been attempted to be hunted to extermination, so why open up arms and eyes?

Also, for the record, the Rromany are not Romanians. In fact we are a completely different ethnic group all together. For those that are thicker blooded than I, should you call them Romanian they will get quite upset. Rromany come from so many different area's and it is our teachings that we originated in the middle east, India in fact is said to be the origin of the Rromany peoples based upon handed down stories. However across Europe Rromany have taken parts from the areas they live and incorporated them. Not just in their actions, lifestyles, or what not - just an example is the language, which is unto its own. They take from cultures what they feel is important or otherwise beneficial and will disregard the rest, thus incorporating not themselves but the regions of their existance into themselves.

As far as thieving and swindling, only ignorance breeds ignorance, thus perpetuating the belief that Rroma as a whole are untrustworthy. I do agree that the secretiveness of the group as a whole does damage changing these perceptions, however do people continue to stigma blacks for being dirty thieves, or Arabs for being underhanded, Jews for being less than forthright? It isn't the culture that breeds these behaviors, it is the world which people live. Here in America where the Rroma groups are few and far between and widely scattered many hold respectable jobs and strive for the typical thing many do - Homes, families, etc.

More over those that walk about with false claims of being of the blood do not add to the problems that Rromany face. Nor do the statements or assumptions that just because someone was a victim of some scam, does it mean it does perpetrated by a Rroma.

**Gilbrit** · July 23rd, 2008, 11:12 PM

IO,
Your point is well taken and correct. The Rromany people are one of the few remaining nomadic - (for lack of a better word), people left in Europe.
In all cultures through out time, when the general populace decides to change, all within the "said borders", are expected to follow. That was one of Hilter's main issues with the Rromany in general. He couldn't control what would not conform to his sordid and demented beliefs.
The Rromany have stayed true to their culture, throughout generations while under emmense pressure to conform. From not conforming, people in Europe are taking notice, some positively and some negatively. By Europe taking notice, the Rromany people can have a voice and be heard.

**Athena** · July 24th, 2008, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by ImmortalOne

It isn't about "Assimilation" it is about a small community who has protected certain ways of life, beliefs, and so forth in an attempt to stop outsiders from destroying what is important to them. Also, drug use is actually frowned upon by the Rromany community. It is not readily acceptable behavior. Scavaging is a way of life for many yes - however circumstances have forced such behaviors because of laws in place that refuse those of the Rromany community education or respectable jobs. One of the most important things to any Rromany is their family, we are raised with respect of our elders and their wisdom, to cherish our children and the blessing it is to bring them into this world, and so much more.

It's absolutely about assimilation. The Roma have no country, as a nomadic people, so they settle inside of other lands that commonly have their own, well-established, distinct cultures. These governments expect certain things from those inside their borders and, if the Romani feel that protecting their culture means defying societal expectations, they will continue to suffer persecution.

As for laws that deny the Roma employment, would you care to provide an example from a modern, European country? I don't know of any laws in Western Europe, nor the Mediterranean, what disallow or even discourage the employment of Roma.

Think of what happened to the Native American's, and how they were forced into other aspects of living, how many were slaughtered at the hands of others because they were viewed as "savages". Or being hunted down by governments who make specific laws against the Rroma and where they are and are not allowed to thrive. Very few other ethnicities have been attempted to be hunted to extermination, so why open up arms and eyes?

Why? I don't know. Because it will be necessary? If the Roma continue as they are, they will be forced to assimilate.

Also, for the record, the Rromany are not Romanians. In fact we are a completely different ethnic group all together. For those that are thicker blooded than I, should you call them Romanian they will get quite upset. Rromany come from so many different area's and it is our teachings that we originated in the middle east, India in fact is said to be the origin of the Rromany peoples based upon handed down stories. However across Europe Rromany have taken parts from the areas they live and incorporated them. Not just in their actions, lifestyles, or what not - just an example is the language, which is unto its own. They take from cultures what they feel is important or otherwise beneficial and will disregard the rest, thus incorporating not themselves but the regions of their existance into themselves.

I would certainly hope that most people realize that Romanians and Gypsies are entirely different groups, both ethnically and culturally. However, there is a significant Gypsy population in Romania.

As far as thieving and swindling, only ignorance breeds ignorance, thus perpetuating the belief that Rroma as a whole are untrustworthy. I do agree that the secretiveness of the group as a whole does damage changing these perceptions, however do people continue to stigma blacks for being dirty thieves, or Arabs for being underhanded, Jews for being less than forthright? It isn't the culture that breeds these behaviors, it is the world which people live. Here in America where the Rroma groups are few and far between and widely scattered many hold respectable jobs and strive for the typical thing many do - Homes, families, etc.

No one said that Romani people, as a whole, are untrustworthy. However, just like terrorism taints the majority's opinion of Arabs, just like fatherless households and crack usage taint the majority's opinion of blacks, swindling taints the majority's opinion of Roma. Is it fair? No, but every culture and ethnicity is regognized, often, by their negative qualities.

However, Gypsies are exceptional. Their culture is especially conducive to swindling and theft, because of its nomadic nature and its history. If the Roma settled down, they wouldn't be forced to adopt such tactice, much like the Roma who have abandoned the nomadic aspect of their culture here in the States. I'm not saying that Roma are inherently untrustworthy, but the circumstances they subject themselves to can cause them to be that way.

**Abroad** · July 27th, 2008, 01:40 PM

Originally Posted by ImmortalOne

It isn't about "Assimilation" it is about a small community who has protected certain ways of life, beliefs, and so forth in an attempt to stop outsiders from destroying what is important to them. Also, drug use is actually frowned upon by the Rromany community. It is not readily acceptable behavior. Scavaging is a way of life for many yes - however circumstances have forced such behaviors because of laws in place that refuse those of the Rromany community education or respectable jobs. One of the most important things to any Rromany is their family, we are raised with respect of our elders and their wisdom, to cherish our children and the blessing it is to bring them into this world, and so much more.

Think of what happened to the Native American's, and how they were forced into other aspects of living, how many were slaughtered at the hands of others because they were viewed as "savages". Or being hunted down by governments who make specific laws against the Rroma and where they are and are not allowed to thrive. Very few other ethnicities have been attempted to be hunted to extermination, so why open up arms and eyes?

Also, for the record, the Rromany are not Romanians. In fact we are a completely different ethnic group all together. For those that are thicker blooded than I, should you call them Romanian they will get quite upset. Rromany come from so many different area's and it is our teachings that we originated in the middle east, India in fact is said to be the origin of the Rromany peoples based upon handed down stories. However across Europe Rromany have taken parts from the areas they live and incorporated them. Not just in their actions, lifestyles, or what not - just an example is the language, which is unto its own. They take from cultures what they feel is important or otherwise beneficial and will disregard the rest, thus incorporating not themselves but the regions of their existance into themselves.

As far as thieving and swindling, only ignorance breeds ignorance, thus perpetuating the belief that Rroma as a whole are untrustworthy. I do agree that the secretiveness of the group as a whole does damage changing these perceptions, however do people continue to stigma blacks for being dirty thieves, or Arabs for being underhanded, Jews for being less than forthright? It isn't the culture that breeds these behaviors, it is the world which people live. Here in America where the Rroma groups are few and far between and widely scattered many hold respectable jobs and strive for the typical thing many do - Homes, families, etc.

More over those that walk about with false claims of being of the blood do not add to the problems that Rromany face. Nor do the statements or assumptions that just because someone was a victim of some scam, does it mean it does perpetrated by a Rroma.

Emphasis added

I should start by saying that I am uncertain to how great an extent there is identity between the R(r)oma people and what are known as Travellers here in the UK. Whether they are one and the same or not, I would suggest that there are things that come with their nomadic existence, which causes them to be un-loved by communities that get to play unwilling hosts to them. Every six months or so, Reading Borough Council gets to spend a small fortune on clearing up after "our" Travellers, when they come through. They pitch their camp. The "scavenge" as you chose to put it. And then, when the stench from the refuse they have collected around their caravans gets too much, they move on.

I remember once seeing a report from one of the areas in Romania where many R(r)oma had been forced to locate permanently in blocks of flats (I believe Romania was the country in Europe with the biggest population of R(r)oma at the time, and I daresay Ceauşescu was not the most ethnically sensitive of tyrants - this was only a few years after his fall), which indicated a similar problem there: Rubbish would be tipped over the balcony and collect at the foot of the block....... Being nomadic would appear to foster some bad habits not best calculated to please the neighbours.

P.S. What is mainly stopping Travellers' children from getting ahead in the education system and going on to take jobs in main-stream society is not descrimination against their ethnicity. What is really holding them back is the lack of continuity in their education and the fact that they will often leave school with only the most basic qualifications. There just are not that many jobs for people without skills in the UK these days.

**Silvahalo** · July 27th, 2008, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by impqueen

and another thing.. how much of this really is due to racism? that makes it even worse.

RACISM is alive and I venture to say will never completely die.

People suck....

Rest in peace little Cristina and Viola.

**celtic friend** · July 27th, 2008, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Abroad

Emphasis added

I should start by saying that I am uncertain to how great an extent there is identity between the R(r)oma people and what are known as Travellers here in the UK. Whether they are one and the same or not, I would suggest that there are things that come with their nomadic existence, which causes them to be un-loved by communities that get to play unwilling hosts to them. Every six months or so, Reading Borough Council gets to spend a small fortune on clearing up after "our" Travellers, when they come through. They pitch their camp. The "scavenge" as you chose to put it. And then, when the stench from the refuse they have collected around their caravans gets too much, they move on.

I remember once seeing a report from one of the areas in Romania where many R(r)oma had been forced to locate permanently in blocks of flats (I believe Romania was the country in Europe with the biggest population of R(r)oma at the time, and I daresay Ceauşescu was not the most ethnically sensitive of tyrants - this was only a few years after his fall), which indicated a similar problem there: Rubbish would be tipped over the balcony and collect at the foot of the block....... Being nomadic would appear to foster some bad habits not best calculated to please the neighbours.

P.S. What is mainly stopping Travellers' children from getting ahead in the education system and going on to take jobs in main-stream society is not descrimination against their ethnicity. What is really holding them back is the lack of continuity in their education and the fact that they will often leave school with only the most basic qualifications. There just are not that many jobs for people without skills in the UK these days.

The travelers are here in the U.S. also. There have been plenty of stories about them, mostly on shows like Dateline.
It is usually how they rip off people with claims of roof jobs, things of that nature.

**ImmortalOne** · July 27th, 2008, 10:25 PM

Originally Posted by celtic friend

The travelers are here in the U.S. also. There have been plenty of stories about them, mostly on shows like Dateline.
It is usually how they rip off people with claims of roof jobs, things of that nature.

TBH most of those "scams" here in the USA are not Rromany decent. They get labeled or may claim they are, however only 1 group of the identified 6 that are in the USA actually hold rights or any relation to the Rroma.

What stops education or employment? What causes the Rroma to continue to move? Several countries have made laws passing such things, and the entire reason that Rroma started being nomadic was because of the laws created and how they were forced out of the places they did move to. Places like Kosovo, and other regions where their children are targeted in blatant racist motivations.