If child support were voluntary

[Dakota Valkyrie]

So yeah, sometimes people are dumb about it, sometimes people are just trying to do "the right thing".

So the children should suffer because people were tricked? I would never take a man's word on it that he was taking male contraceptives or was sterile or had been snipped. For the very reason you mentioned... people sometimes lie and birth control sometimes fails. I don't see why men can't embrace that attitude also and make decisions accordingly.

The "getting married to her" is a separate issue from tricking him into becoming a parent. Behaving like a saint until the "I Dos" is not an uncommon lament. Both men and women complain that once they get the blinders of love/lust off, they don't really like the person they thought they knew. If he suspects the oldest is not even his, it's obvious that hindsight is 20/20.

I applaud your husband for not going after his suspicions. Further proof that it takes more than sperm to be a dad.

[thehesbomb]

So the children should suffer because people were tricked?

No that's not what I think at all. But I sure as hell think there should be some accountability about where child support money goes.

When she had custody DoucheBag (affectionaly known as "DB") lived in subsidized, low-income housing, got food stamps, WIC, TANF, had electric and fuel assistance and did not work, while she collected disability. There is NO WAY that she spent anywhere near $815.90 per month on rent/food/utilities combined yet that's what my husband paid for child support. To me that is a miscarriage of justice.

In our case we could show how our $50 a month of child support gets spent with one receipt - say a receipt for a pair of shoes for ONE of the kids. Or we could cheap out and get them a pair each from Payless. High rollerssss!!!!

[Dakota Valkyrie]

When she had custody DoucheBag (affectionaly known as "DB") lived in subsidized, low-income housing, got food stamps, WIC, TANF, had electric and fuel assistance and did not work, while she collected disability. There is NO WAY that she spent anywhere near $815.90 per month on rent/food/utilities combined yet that's what my husband paid for child support. To me that is a miscarriage of justice.

Not sure how it works in your state, but here when the person is on public assistance the money goes to "pay back" the state. They take out what they've paid out and if there is any left over, then it's paid to the custodial parent. The amount paid to that parent is also used to adjust food stamps and other assistance.

[Obsolete]

I don't see many non custodial mothers that even have support orders. That should definitely change. I don't know why, but judges have sympathy for a woman when the shoe is on the other foot and never have I even heard of a female being locked up for non payment.

I can rattle off at least 5 women that I know have support orders against them, and one did go to jail about 5 jears ago for not paying (my best friends ex-wife). She had another baby after they divorced and lost custody of that baby. My best friend legally adopted her child just so his son would know his half sister. She doesn't pay anything for the one he adopted.

Maybe it's just Oregon but it seems more and more common for fathers to be getting custody.

*I also wanted to mention that my best friend, not only had full custody of his son from age 1, until he turned 18 and his ex wifes daughter but he also has full custody of the child he had with his ex girlfriend. She also has a court order to pay him.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I also have a female friend that has a court order against her because her ex has full custody. Maybe it's just Oregon but it seems more and more commen for fathers to be getting custody.

I know many single dads. My husband was one. His ex managed to bitch about how we spent our money. Even though she only had to pay $100/mo for FOUR kids and was a year in arrears when we married. WE never said boo about if a check came or not. Because she moved to another state, child support enforcement was done there automatically. She was threatened with jail and the state of Minnesota did revoke her drivers license for a time. She eventually did get caught up but never has stopped bitching.

We could have been really mean and taken her back for a re-evaluation. After their divorce, uniform laws went into effect and her lousy $100 for 4 kids would have never been allowed for a single woman working full time. She made more than my husband did!

[biteme]

From the remarks on here, it's exactly the mind set that creates the child support issues
Talk to anyone paying child support, if they have an issue it's HOW THE MONEY IS SPENT
or they're dead beats and don't pay at all, and some still have a rational relationship with the ex and have no issues

Bye all

[Nell]

^^^^ what?

[biteme]

^^^^ what?

@Nell NOT! Everyone

If people don't understand the "not have a say issue" than they're part of the problem not the solution
That is the one complaint I constantly hear, right or wrong it's the comment most paying child support make
I think part of it is they feel they pay and get no credit with the children, because the one collecting does most of the buying
Two and a Half Men Season 2, Ep. 20
Judith bills Alan for an expensive pair of tennis shoes she bought Jake, and Jake keeps saying how his mom bought him the cool shoes
and Alan says he's not going to pay for them and Jake says I know mom give them to me
if you watch the scene it points to the issue

[Nell]

While I get what you are saying and kind of agree, I can't forgive your for not only watching Two and a Half Men, but then quoting it.

[Obsolete]

If people don't understand the "not have a say issue" than they're part of the problem not the solution
That is the one complaint I constantly hear, right or wrong it's the comment most paying child support make
I think part of it is they feel they pay and get no credit with the children, because the one collecting does most of the buying

No one is saying that isn't an issue, you're arguing with yourself.

[biteme]

While I get what you are saying and kind of agree, I can't forgive your for not only watching Two and a Half Men, but then quoting it.

love it, live it
Go Charlie GO!

[biteme]

No one is saying that isn't an issue, you're arguing with yourself.

[thehesbomb]

Not sure how it works in your state, but here when the person is on public assistance the money goes to "pay back" the state. They take out what they've paid out and if there is any left over, then it's paid to the custodial parent. The amount paid to that parent is also used to adjust food stamps and other assistance.

Hmmm...I don't think it works that way here, or at least it didn't when she had custody (8 years ago). DH's work deducted 33% directly from his paycheck and it was sent to her bank account. Each month they submitted some sort of paperwork to DHHS showing the payroll deductions.

I know this because once they had a mandatory plant shutdown and she got her child support a day late. She called DH's place of employment, DH, me, DHHS, the POLICE and a lawyer. That was a good day...

[Obsolete]

Not sure how it works in your state, but here when the person is on public assistance the money goes to "pay back" the state. They take out what they've paid out and if there is any left over, then it's paid to the custodial parent. The amount paid to that parent is also used to adjust food stamps and other assistance.

It works that way here too.

[Rockin Ma]

Here it's different. The support order is usually in accordance with the guidelines, and then an additional very small amount say $25.00 per week to the state. I don't think they even pursue it for people that don't make good money.

[malq]

From the remarks on here, it's exactly the mind set that creates the child support issues
Talk to anyone paying child support, if they have an issue it's HOW THE MONEY IS SPENT
or they're dead beats and don't pay at all, and some still have a rational relationship with the ex and have no issues

Bye all

I can understand your post if I try real hard, but it is like a cryptic cipher. You have a lot of good things to say, and I enjoy your input, but you really need to re read it before you post and see if it makes sense to you. If I had to guess, it is flowing out of your head to the keyboard and skipping the step that translates it to understandable. Just because it makes sense to you, doesn't mean it makes any to me in BITEMEese.
I think if you were clear you would be a powerful poster.

[Tits McGee]

The state followed for a while and when he lost his job, I got a letter that his employment terminated and they could no longer collect....
...

So I suppose that if the man hangs in there and pays for that kid he don't want for a while, then changes jobs after maybe a set amount of time, it could go away. But the state can look you up. If you are on the books, they can find you. I don't know if now they look automatically or if the payee would have to bring it to their attention.

In the state I live in, employers are required by law to fill out a New Hire Report with the state within x amount of weeks (I can't remember off the top of my head, I think it's two weeks) of hiring a new employee. The Child Support Enforcement Agency then contacts the employer with any court-mandated child support orders. I believe it must be the same for many, if not all states, as we get child support orders from other states all the time.

[Saffron]

The one thing I disagree about is people figuring the cost of housing into child support. The parent with custody has to live somewhere anyway and the difference for an additional room is negligible.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

The one thing I disagree about is people figuring the cost of housing into child support. The parent with custody has to live somewhere anyway and the difference for an additional room is negligible.

I don't view $150-$200+ a month difference in rent (between a 1 & a 2 bedroom apt) as negligible if you're living "paycheck to paycheck". Even half that sometimes isn't a negligible amount for those living "hand to mouth".

[TheMeaningOfItAll]

Hmmm. So the debate is what would happen if child support were voluntary, right? Well, I think we know the answer to that. There would be a lot of financially unsupported children out there. Anyone who believes that $50-100 a week to support a kid is too much is crazy. I have three kids--girls at that--and let me tell you something: They are expensive to support--just in food alone. Growing kids eat like horses. If something happened between my husband and I and we decided to split ways, I would be fucked without his child support. I would probably be working two jobs, never see the kids, etc. It's all about what is best for the kids. If two people have sex and out of that sex comes a child, they both have a responsibility to support said kids. Some non-custodial parents bitch about having to pay child support, but you know what? Are they there to dry the child's tears at night when they are alone and scared? Do they make breakfast, lunch, dinner on their own for the kids? Do they take the kids to school every day? Do they do the laundry, bleach out the skid marks in the undies? Do they clean up after the kids, rub their backs when they are vomiting into a toilet? Do they go to doctor appointments or shop for children's clothes/shoes on a thread-bare budget? Do they deal with the day to day stuff that makes a parent want to pull his/hair out like kids bickering non-stop or temper tantrums or dirty diapers? No. All they have to do is contribute a little bit of money and visit the kid on a set schedule. I don't believe child support should be voluntary because by the time it gets to the "child support" stage, things have usually become so bitter between the two parents, that the non-custodial parent will try to hurt the ex any way possible and a lot of times they mistakenly believe withholding money for the support of the children is the best way to hurt him/her.

[Saffron]

Around here it's $25 more for a two bedroom and $50 for a three bedroom (at least when I was renting five years ago) and if you qualified due to low income, your rent is half the price for a bigger, nicer place. It's almost impossible to even find a one bedroom anywhere.

[Tundratot]

I agree with you, @TheMeaningOfItAll. I was a kid more years ago than I care to confess. Child support was awarded in those days, but not collected by any agency and states were neither mandating that women name fathers so they could be charged (for those on welfare) nor chasing down deadbeats. The transaction took place between the parties involved, and that meant that it didn't take place a lot of the time (at least that's what we read in the papers and saw on the news).

Of course, men were also denying fatherhood. There were no DNA tests, and blood type tests -- while available -- were not conclusive evidence. So, the father was whoever the mother named on the birth certificate. That would not hold up in a court battle, of course. Lacking that, if a woman were married, the father was whoever her current husband was at the time of the birth.

Again, it seemed at the time that a lot of child support was going unpaid. It became enough of a problem that states were eventually pulled into the enforcement of child support payments. That was good news for women all over the country. Probably some men, too.

So my conclusion is that if child support were voluntary, we'd have a huge number of children in this country being raised without the extra money that their non-custodial parent owed. More even than we used to have, since marriage is becoming passé and the stigma of having children outside marriage is gone. If access to birth control again becomes restrictive, there will be even more.

[gee]

If people don't want the responsibility of raising/paying for a child, they should probably keep their body parts to themselves or at least only fuck individuals who they are certain are of the same mind as they are on the idea.

If only it were a perfect world

[Dakota Valkyrie]

If only it were a perfect world

True... but if more people gave it as much thought as they do when picking out strawberries at the grocery store, this wouldn't be an issue.

If it was a perfect world, the child support issue wouldn't even come up. People would happily and gladly do what's in the best interest of the child. We wouldn't need the support laws but history has proven why there is a need. And if some feel their are unfair, then they should work to change them or work to avoid them. But as it is, the current laws are there for a reason... mostly because people are far from perfect.

[gee]

True... but if more people gave it as much thought as they do when picking out strawberries at the grocery store, this wouldn't be an issue.

If it was a perfect world, the child support issue wouldn't even come up. People would happily and gladly do what's in the best interest of the child. We wouldn't need the support laws but history has proven why there is a need. And if some feel their are unfair, then they should work to change them or work to avoid them. But as it is, the current laws are there for a reason... mostly because people are far from perfect.

I can't agree more with Ya DV. There is one thing that is undisputed is Men have 100% control of there penis. There fore they still have choices here. Same as women. Abstinence is proven to be the best way to avoid this situation too.

[Athena]

The problem is that people are trying to establish fairness when, in some situations, it simply cannot exist.

A pregnant woman can unilaterally opt to keep a child or abort a child. Why can't a man have a say? Because he assumes NO physical risk. They are not equal entities. Pregnancy isn't exactly safe. I suffered from fatigue, developed gestational diabetes and lost over a liter of blood during delivery. The mother-father relationship is an inherently inequitable one. There's simply no way to make it fair.

Should the woman decide to give birth, the relationship becomes substantially more inequitable, as the legal priority is the child. But if it were so easy for women to walk away or terminate their rights, they wouldn't represent the majority of single parents. No, it is the man that typically walks away from the situation. A third of white and Latino children grow up lacking a father for extensive periods. TWO thirds of black children grow up without a father permanently active in their lives. They pay a relatively nominal fee for their freedom from the daily responsibility that is rearing children. Sounds pretty fuckin' fair to me.

I'm with Dakota. Be discriminatory. We shouldn't be making it even easier for people to walk away from their responsibilities because a few pieces of shit off their kids to avoid child support.

[Pete Bondurant]

We need more white babies!

[gee]

No one is saying that isn't an issue, you're arguing with yourself.

I think @biteme likes to argue with himself. He is used to it
Still luv ya Biteme

[BootyJ666]

That is why people should be more discriminate in who they bed down. People put more thought into buying a car than the lifelong ramifications of a poke. I'm far from a prude but was always willing to accept the consequences of a birth control failure. If a guy does not want to make a baby with someone, he should take measures to prevent it but be aware the measures may fail or that the chick is lying to him (far from unheard of). Priorities dammit! If getting laid is more important than the pocketbook, you just might get a little more than you asked for.

OK, so I have had many similar conversations with men and women, here is my belief (and I am so with you on everything you have said), the second a mans semen exits his body and into a women, that man is now responsible for what ever the outcome might be. Women lie, women claim they are on the pill, fixed, etc and if you dont have enough common sense to protect your own self before you fuck someone, then that is your fault. I have been with guys who didnt have a condom and a few said "you said you were fixed" and???? you believed me? Damn no wonder you are on your 3 marriage and have 3 different baby mamas (OK, that didnt really happen, but can you see where I am going with this?) guys, stop sticking your dick in the crazy, plain and simple or never ever ever ever ever ever ever ever have sex without a condom!

[blacksheep]

I think alot of men wouldn't "opt out".

Sounds too much like a failure, and men who don't want to love their kids aren't going to have THAT put on paper.

"Yes, your honor, I am a man-whore and I am opting out of this fatherhood. I'm too horny to cope with a mother for a wife, and my gf has some really sweet crack soooooooo, if it's ok with you, I QUIT"

Yeah, that's not what Big Tough Men say.

They say things like,
"I'm not going to court, only God can judge me"


What red-blooded-asshole is going to responsibibly say, "Oh your honor it's best the child has nothing to do with me"