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Thread: Death Penalty's Unlikely Opponents

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    Death Penalty's Unlikely Opponents

    Death penalty's unlikely opponents
    (CNN) -- Charisse Coleman has no real compassion for the man who walked into the Thrifty Liquor Store in Shreveport, Louisiana, in 1995 and put three bullets in her brother, Russell.
    But she doesn't want Bobby Lee Hampton -- one of more than seven dozen killers on Louisiana's death row -- executed, either.

    "My opposition to the death penalty has nothing to do with Bobby Lee Hampton," Coleman said. "He's a bad dude. He's never going to be a good dude. If I got a call that said Bobby Lee Hampton dropped dead in his cell last night, I don't think it would create a ripple in my pond."
    She added, though, "I will be goddamned if I will let Bobby Lee Hampton make me a victim, too, by taking me down that road of bitterness and revenge."

    Coleman, 50, is among the most unlikely opponents of the death penalty, people who lost loved ones to unspeakable violence yet believe executing the killer will do nothing for family members or society.

    Their stance is backed by groups like Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation and Murder Victims' Families for Human Rights, and their reasons aren't as religious or political as one might think. Some feel so strongly they've spoken against the death penalty even when it wasn't an option in their loved one's case.

    There's no denying most Americans are pro-death penalty. They have been since 1967, according to Gallup, which regularly conducts polls asking whether Americans are for or against capital punishment in murder cases. Support reached as high as 80% in 1994 and declined to 61% in a poll this month -- the lowest since 1972, the year the Supreme Court temporarily halted executions.

    Add a little nuance, though, and sentiments shift. When asked to choose between the death penalty and life in prison, 50% of respondents in a recent CNN/ORC International Poll said they favored a life sentence, compared to 48% who preferred the death penalty
    .
    Charisse Coleman dearly misses her brother Russell but says executing his killer won't help.
    Two executions, two views
    Perhaps the split in opinion was most evident on September 21, when two executions were
    met with vastly different reactions.

    Death penalty by the numbers
    34 -- States with death penalty

    35 -- Percent of executed defendants who were white

    56 -- Percent of executed defendants who were black

    15 -- Percent of death penalty cases where victim was black

    76 -- Percent of death penalty cases where victim was white

    22 -- Juveniles executed before 2005 Supreme Court ban

    138 -- Death row exonerations since 1973

    1,271 -- Number of executions in U.S. since 1976

    475 -- Executions in Texas since 1976

    796 -- U.S. executions outside of Texas since 1976

    313 -- Number of death sentences in 1994

    112 -- Number of death sentences in 2010
    Source: Death Penalty Information Center Thousands of people -- including entertainers, dignitaries, Amnesty International and the pope -- denounced the execution of Troy Davis. Some said they believed Davis was innocent in the slaying of a Georgia police officer. Others said there was too much doubt to execute him. (The officer's family, like the relatives of many victims, had no qualms about seeing the person convicted of their loved one's murder put to death.)
    Meanwhile in Texas, the lethal injection of Lawrence Brewer, who took part in the racially charged dragging death of James Byrd Jr., barely elicited a whisper.
    Byrd's son, Ross, voiced the loudest protest, saying, "You can't fight murder with murder," but to no avail.
    In Mississippi, the mother and siblings of another slaying victim are praying for a more receptive ear.

    Surveillance cameras showed James Craig Anderson, 49, being assaulted in a Jackson motel parking lot before being fatally run down in a pickup truck early in the morning of June 26. Deryl Dedmon, 19, has pleaded not guilty to charges he murdered Anderson; police say Dedmon was behind the wheel of the truck. A judge has told prosecutors to decide by November 1 if they will pursue the death penalty.
    Teen murder suspect carried 'backpack of hatred'
    Anderson's sister, Barbara Anderson Young, wrote the district attorney on behalf of her mother and brothers imploring him not to seek the death sentence. In expressing their opposition, she cited racial disparities in the death penalty's application, the family's faith and the hope that sparing her brother's killers "may help to spark a dialogue" that would end capital punishment.

    "Our savior Jesus Christ rejected the old way of an eye for an eye and taught us instead to turn the other cheek. He died that we might have everlasting life and, in doing so, asked that the lives of the two common criminals nailed to the crosses beside him be spared," her letter read. "We can do no less."
    Religion is a common basis for death penalty opposition. The Catholic Church opposes it in almost all instances. Islamic Sharia law permits a murder victim's family to pardon the killer. Buddha's first precept is to "refrain from destroying living creatures."
    But opposition to capital punishment extends well beyond dogma.
    People of many faiths and those who don't consider themselves religious said their aversion to the death penalty was not based on theology. Some said they couldn't pinpoint exactly why they opposed it; others said it was simply bad policy.

    Compassion for a killer
    Andre Smith, 60, of Raleigh, North Carolina, had been offering spiritual advice to prisoners at Nash Correctional Institution for about five years when his faith was tested. As part of the Buddhism-based Liberation Prison Project, he taught inmates anger management and meditation skills.

    When he was younger, Smith said he wielded an "explosive, reactive anger" to the point it almost tore his family apart. So in teaching inmates, he leaned on his own experiences and presented them alongside the virtues of Jesus, Gandhi, the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr., Mother Teresa and St. Francis of Assisi. don't think I would be able to forgive ... the guy who killed my son if not for my practicing these principles and working with these guys in prison," he said.

    According to Smith and authorities, Wallace Bass was spending his 24th birthday at the West Side Stories nightclub in Raleigh, where Smith's son, Daniel, was a regular on the dance floor. Daniel Smith spilled Bass' beer, the two had words and Daniel Smith refused to apologize.
    A bouncer separated the two, but around closing time Bass followed Daniel Smith into the bathroom and stabbed him several times, including once fatally in the chest.

    Andre Smith remembers his wife collapsing when police came to their house that December 2007 morning.

    "It's like someone just reached in and pulled your guts out. It's got to be the worst thing I've ever heard in my life," he said. "I remember being in the back of a police car (en route to identify Daniel's body) and not knowing what to think."
    Despite his pain, Smith didn't hate Bass. He actually told reporters at the time he had compassion for his son's killer, who faced a maximum sentence of life in prison. His wife, who isn't Buddhist, also forgave Bass. It has nothing to do with religion, Smith said.

    Forgiveness, he said, was a product of years of practicing compassion, just as a violent assault can come only after years of practicing anger, the practicing Buddhist said.
    "If you practice, you become adept," Smith said
    .
    Andre Smith, left, said he had compassion for the man who fatally stabbed his son Daniel, 21.
    Not becoming victims themselves
    While Smith's compassion for the killer may seem unusual -- no one else interviewed for this story expressed such empathy -- many, like John Starbuck, spoke on a grander theme of forgiveness.

    The Stone Mountain, Georgia, resident lost first his grandfather and then his stepdaughter to violence about 23 years apart. Though Starbuck decided he didn't believe in the death penalty during a political science research project at age 15, the issue wasn't real to him at the time.

    His stance became more "visceral" when Lester King, the man he called Dad and who spent much of his life in law enforcement, had a heart attack in 1982 after being jumped by thugs in Oakland, California, and again when Meleia Willis-Starbuck, 19, was fatally shot in Berkeley, California, in 2005.
    Raised in a Unitarian church and "searching religiously" today, Starbuck said he was not swayed by calls, some from family members, to execute the people who killed his loved ones.
    " 'If you honor your daughter, if you honor your grandfather, you'll want the people who did this to them to die,' " he recalls people telling him, even though no one ultimately faced capital punishment for the deaths. "I'm just confident in my love for them and my love for humanity, that I don't want this to be part of our society, to let retribution be the rule."
    Charisse Coleman, who attends a Unitarian Universalist fellowship but said her "true church is art," may not love the man who gunned down her brother. But she doesn't want payback, either, even though she'll always miss her artistic, dimple-cheeked brother and his taste for puns, storytelling and Frank Zappa.
    Executing Bobby Lee Hampton won't bring Russell back or ease her loss, but those are only two reasons she opposes the death penalty.

    She said she worries that in many capital punishment cases, factors like the race of the victim or the defendant's ability to afford experienced attorneys may influence the outcome. She also feels that executing people to show that killing is wrong is more retribution than punishment.

    Most of all, she doesn't like the fact there's room for error, as evidenced by the scores of death penalty exonerations handed down since 1973.
    "The criminal justice is created by and conducted by humans," she said. "As long as we're capable of making mistakes, we shouldn't be deciding who lives and dies."
    The state vs. a healing family
    Jan Brown of Houston said she can't pinpoint why she loathes the death penalty, but she always has, even when her 9-year-old daughter's killer was executed.

    A Southern Baptist until 1984, Brown said capital punishment is tantamount to "legalized murder." She said she doesn't know when she developed her disdain. The first time she considered it may have been when she told a prosecutor she didn't want James Earhart to die, she said.
    "Maybe I'm just selfish," she said. "Maybe he'd tell me what her last words were. Maybe he'd tell me why she had to die. Maybe because I think it's barbaric. Maybe if one of my children ended up in the same situation, I wouldn't want them to die."

    Brown, 65, said the entire process leading up to Earhart's lethal injection was more about the perpetrator than the victim. Brown was a suspect until police found Kandy Janell Kirtland's deteriorating body, her hands bound, in a rubbish pile in Bryan, Texas. Brown said she was further devastated when protesters staged a vigil at Earhart's 1999 execution -- not for the innocent girl who never got to see fifth grade, but for her killer.
    Brown said she went through 12 years of hell because a prosecutor seemed to care more about Texas' reputation for being tough on crime than about helping Kandy's family heal.

    Gus Lamm said he felt the same way when his wife, Victoria Zessin, was taken at age 28. He and his daughter unsuccessfully sued the parole board -- and in the process alienated themselves from Zessin's family -- to make sure the state knew they felt capital punishment was repugnant
    Zessin was pregnant with their second child at the time, and she wanted to visit her pal, Janet Mesner, a caretaker at a Quaker meetinghouse in Lincoln, Nebraska, before the baby arrived.
    Randy Reeves, Mesner's adopted cousin, had been drinking since morning when he assaulted Mesner on the night of March 29, 1980. Zessin overheard the commotion and ran to her friend's rescue, only to have Reeves' knife pierce her liver.
    Zessin died immediately, Mesner on the way to the hospital.
    Lamm, 61, who describes himself as "atheist at best," said the death penalty is "horrific, and it does nothing to attend to us as human beings." He scoffs at the notion that killing a killer provides closure and noted that a reporter was asking about his wife's death more than three decades later
    Former beat cop Lester King was the man John Starbuck considered his dad.
    Meleia Willis-Starbuck, seen here with John Starbuck at a 1991 anti-war rally, died at age 19.
    [...]

    Seeking mercy against odds
    He and his daughter, Audrey, who was 2 and asleep upstairs in the meetinghouse when her mother was murdered, tried to convey that to the Nebraska Parole Board in 1999 but were told they could not testify. They sued, and a judge ruled against them.

    Lamm's opposition to the death penalty is also pragmatic -- he doesn't trust the government to spend his tax dollars, so why should he trust it to decide whether to execute a criminal or grant clemency? Also, like Jan Brown, he felt his family's healing didn't matter in the state's quest to execute Reeves.

    "If this was a war zone, I'd be collateral damage," he said.

    In 2000, the state high court commuted Reeves' death sentence on procedural grounds. Lamm said he was "cheerful" to hear the news, but much damage had already been done. Zessin's father, for instance, had shut out Audrey, his own granddaughter, for her position on the death penalty.

    "Vicki's father refused to ever speak to my daughter again. ... Here is a man who was promised closure. He died this year, and they never spoke again," Lamm said. "That's what the death penalty does."

    John Starbuck, 51, was fortunate -- if you can characterize it as such -- in that he was allowed to voice his opinion to the California court during the 2008 trial for his stepdaughter's killer.

    Christopher Hollis was sentenced to the maximum 24 years for voluntary manslaughter. The prosecution opted against murder charges, which could have carried a life sentence, because Meleia Willis-Starbuck had called Hollis for help when she and some friends got into an argument with a group of people. Hollis showed up and fired into the group, hitting only Willis-Starbuck.

    Starbuck said he believes Hollis was trying to help his stepdaughter, he said, even if it was idiotic to try to break up an altercation by blindly firing into a crowd.

    Though the death penalty wasn't a consideration, Starbuck didn't want Hollis' life to effectively be destroyed by a lengthy prison sentence. He wrote the Alameda County Superior Court judge presiding over Hollis' case and asked him to show mercy.

    "If Chris is, in fact, the sort of man that Meleia would count as a friend, I imagine that he suffers each and every day from her loss. He is not only in physical prison, but he is sentenced to the gravest cage of broken possibilities and personal responsibility," Starbuck wrote.

    "I am willing to believe that as a man, he will step up to his responsibility for a better life, and act on it. I am willing to give him that chance."
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/23/justic...html?hpt=ju_c2

    For every murdered child
    We fly with all prevailing winds of change,
    For any quirk of fate we may arrange.
    We are not "meek" or "mild";
    Don't turn your back when twilight dims the sky -
    We'll haunt the perpetrators till they Die
    "Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for that animal their world is changed forever!" - Unknown

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    "Vicki's father refused to ever speak to my daughter again. ... Here is a man who was promised closure. He died this year, and they never spoke again," Lamm said. "That's what the death penalty does."
    This is flawed reasoning, that the DP causes family rifts. Family rifts come from disagreements of all shapes and sizes, from the trivial to the profound.
    Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. ~Will Rogers

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    Some quite good argumentation on the issue. It's a bit longish, but for sure worth to read!

    "Capital punishment is contrary to all international human-rights codes, and the United States is the only Western liberal democracy still practicing this curiously archaic and tribal custom. The United States kills more of its own citizens in the name of justice than any other country in the world, with the exceptions of China and Iran."

    - http://www.secularhumanism.org/index...e=gallagher_na

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    Excellent read. I am glad to read something positive about being anti DP for once. I have never believed in the DP and I think it should be abolished. It does not solve problems, it creates new ones. I could type for days about my thoughts on it. I just want to say GOOD FOR THESE FAMILIES who are not wanting to take another life away. It does not solve anything. It is just one big horrible cycle. Killing people to show other people that killing is wrong is totally moronic IMO.

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    These people...I find them to be inexplicable.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    Maybe the USA puts more value on life, than other countries
    The USA feels a life is worth a life, some countries feel a life is only worth a few years
    In some countries you can kill dozens and get max 21 years, sounds like a hell of a deal, less than a year per life
    Seems they don't value life much

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    Quote Originally Posted by biteme View Post
    Maybe the USA puts more value on life, than other countries
    The USA feels a life is worth a life, some countries feel a life is only worth a few years
    In some countries you can kill dozens and get max 21 years, sounds like a hell of a deal, less than a year per life
    Seems they don't value life much
    Oh yes, clearly those countries which put as much value on life as the USA form a true belt of freedom, democracy, and human rights as can be seen on the map below

    Use of the death penalty around the world (as of February 2011).
    *Blue* Abolished for all offenses (96)
    *Pale green* Abolished for all offenses except under special circumstances (9)
    *Maroon* Retains, though not used for at least 10 years (34)
    *Red* Retains death penalty (58)*

    *While laws vary among U.S. states, it is considered retentionist because the federal death penalty is still in active use.

    More about the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldowas View Post
    Oh yes, clearly those countries which put as much value on life as the USA form a true belt of freedom, democracy, and human rights as can be seen on the map below

    Use of the death penalty around the world (as of February 2011).
    *Blue* Abolished for all offenses (96)
    *Pale green* Abolished for all offenses except under special circumstances (9)
    *Maroon* Retains, though not used for at least 10 years (34)
    *Red* Retains death penalty (58)*

    *While laws vary among U.S. states, it is considered retentionist because the federal death penalty is still in active use.

    More about the issue: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment
    Feel free to live in any of those blue spots
    I see frozen brains and fried brains
    rational brains in between
    Most probably have the death penalty to keep those north and south out

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    Great Marshal Waldowas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by biteme View Post

    Feel free to live in any of those blue spots
    I see frozen brains and fried brains
    rational brains in between
    Most probably have the death penalty to keep those north and south out
    I will and I hope you have also a good time with all those rational brains in Cuba, Belarus, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Congo, Somalia, Zimbabwe, China, Vietnam, North Korea etc...

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldowas View Post
    I will and I hope you have also a good time with all those rational brains in Cuba, Belarus, Syria, Iran, Sudan, Congo, Somalia, Zimbabwe, China, Vietnam, North Korea etc...

    Racist!
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    Great Marshal Waldowas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    Racist!
    Depends on which race(s) you have in your mind. E.g. Belarus is ethnically a very "white" (which is of course quite apt thinking of its name ) society compared to many others like e.g. America. I was referring the current political and societal conditions of those countries which political and legal system put so much value on life that they take away many lives to punish those who have taken lives and actually in quite many cases also for much lesser deeds as well.

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldowas View Post
    Depends on which race(s) you have in your mind. E.g. Belarus is ethnically very "white" (which is of course quite apt thinking of its name ) society compared to many others like e.g. America. I was referring the current political and societal conditions of those countries which political and legal system put so much value on life that they take away many lives to punish those who have taken lives and actually in quite many cases also for much lesser deeds as well.
    You too are a racist. You believe these people...these Asians...the Africans...to be subhuman, ignorant, savages. As for these Belorussians....these people are genetically compromised, firstly due to the Slavic variation and secondly due to massive industrial pollution and the nuclear fallout from the Chernobyl incident. You insult the United States by comparing them, in a negative manner, to these lesser peoples. America executes persons convicted of murder...and it does so very rarely. The Chinese routinely execute drug dealers and persons convicted of corruption. The government of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea has been known to execute children of persons who are considered traitors. There is nothing barbaric about executing a convicted murderer or rapist. This so-called humanity....this liberal ideal, which....incidentally....is appropriated from Christianity, oddly enough....this so-called humanity or humanitarianism is far more sickening than the "brutality" of common sense law and order ideals. Is it humane to allow a murderer of children to spend, at most, twelve years in prison, as is the case in Sweden? Where is the humanity in that? Should Anders Breivik be considered not-liable for his murderous rampage because of his "mental illness?" These are rhetorical questions. Anders Breivik should be executed. The only problem with the death penalty in the United States of America, is that it is not employed often enough. This is my unshakable belief.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    Sister of executed inmate Troy Davis dies
    SAVANNAH, Ga. —
    Martina Davis Correia, the older sister of executed Georgia inmate Troy Davis, died Thursday in Savannah after years spent working to clear her brother's name and two months after his funeral.
    Correia, 44, had battled breast cancer for more than a decade. Her younger sister, Kimberly Davis, confirmed her death to The Associated Press, but declined to comment further.
    Troy Davis was executed Sept. 21 for the 1989 slaying of off-duty police officer Mark MacPhail despite an outcry from thousands of supporters worldwide who believed he was wrongfully convicted. In his last words, Davis insisted he was innocent.
    Correia was her brother's chief supporter, rallying Amnesty International and other death penalty opponents to her brother's cause. Her work helped win Davis a rare hearing in federal court to prove his innocence — something granted no other U.S. death row inmate in more than 50 years — thought the courts ultimately upheld his death sentence.
    "She was the No. 1 messenger and was the one that really inspired people to get involved and work for him," said Laura Moye, who heads Amnesty International's campaign to abolish the death penalty. "She is the person who really sparked the global campaign for Troy Davis."
    Moye said Correia had been admitted to a Savannah hospital a week ago and died peacefully Thursday surrounded by family.
    "''She was given six months to live 11 years ago when she was diagnosed with cancer," said Moye, who was also at the hospital when Correia died. "Her spirit was fighting every inch to stay alive, but her body just gave out."
    Correia had been hospitalized in September as Davis' lawyers and supporters fought to the end to spare his life. Correia helped direct the fight from her hospital bed, and later used a wheelchair to join protesters outside Georgia's death row the night of his execution.
    Even after Davis was put to death, Correia vowed to keep fighting capital punishment in the U.S.
    [...]
    http://www.foxreno.com/ap/ap/crime/s...is-dies/nFrgr/

    For every murdered child
    We fly with all prevailing winds of change,
    For any quirk of fate we may arrange.
    We are not "meek" or "mild";
    Don't turn your back when twilight dims the sky -
    We'll haunt the perpetrators till they Die
    "Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for that animal their world is changed forever!" - Unknown

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    Great Marshal Waldowas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    ... subhuman, ignorant, savages ... You insult the United States by comparing them, in a negative manner, to these lesser peoples...
    Well, sounds quite a lot of that R-word you were just referring yourself...

    Btw. ever tested the RWA Scale? Try it!

    - http://homepage.mac.com/chriswjohnso...wa-scale.xhtml

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    I am a fucking Rhodesian. I hated communism before I had teeth. As for that chart....I'm so far to the fucking right that I am off of that chart....off of the table it sits upon....onto, and across the floor and out of the fucking door and on my way to a Klan meeting, to fire-bomb the bastards for being too liberal.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    I am a fucking Rhodesian. I hated communism before I had teeth. As for that chart....I'm so far to the fucking right that I am off of that chart....off of the table it sits upon....onto, and across the floor and out of the fucking door and on my way to a Klan meeting, to fire-bomb the bastards for being too liberal.
    I always wanted a Rhodesian.

    Dear Mommy...I see you smile down there below...are those tears of joy you show? I'm glad you're happy, although you lied...I'd love to be right by your side...but by your choice, I view from above...tell my Grandparents I send my love...it's Beautiful here, is all I can say...your life will go on... without me in your way. Love Caylee XOXO......
    NO JUSTICE FOR CAYLEE - copyright that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    I am a fucking Rhodesian. I hated communism before I had teeth. As for that chart....I'm so far to the fucking right that I am off of that chart....off of the table it sits upon....onto, and across the floor and out of the fucking door and on my way to a Klan meeting, to fire-bomb the bastards for being too liberal.
    Yes, I thought so...

    RWA's should actually have a warning sign printed on their foreheads like on cigarette packages on their risks for the wellbeing of their surroundings, but luckily they are quite easy to detect otherwise too...

    In roleplaying situations, authoritarians tend to seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive instead of cooperative. In a study by Altemeyer, 68 authoritarians played a three hour simulation of the Earth's future entitled the Global change game. Unlike a comparison game played by individuals with low RWA scores, which resulted in world peace and widespread international cooperation, the simulation by authoritarians became highly militarized and eventually entered the stage of nuclear war. By the end of the high RWA game, the entire population of the earth was declared dead.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-w...thoritarianism

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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldowas View Post

    In roleplaying situations, authoritarians tend to seek dominance over others by being competitive and destructive instead of cooperative. In a study by Altemeyer, 68 authoritarians played a three hour simulation of the Earth's future entitled the Global change game. Unlike a comparison game played by individuals with low RWA scores, which resulted in world peace and widespread international cooperation, the simulation by authoritarians became highly militarized and eventually entered the stage of nuclear war. By the end of the high RWA game, the entire population of the earth was declared dead.

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-w...thoritarianism
    You are making a terrific assumption that this Altemeyer fellow's theory has any validity at all. It is a simple matter to exterminate all of humanity within the confines of some role-playing exercise. To extrapolate the outcome of some professor's (and a left-wing Canadian professor at that) silly little parlour game into political reality is flawed, to say the least.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  35. #19
    Great Marshal Waldowas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    You are making a terrific assumption that this Altemeyer fellow's theory has any validity at all. It is a simple matter to exterminate all of humanity within the confines of some role-playing exercise. To extrapolate the outcome of some professor's (and a left-wing Canadian professor at that) silly little parlour game into political reality is flawed, to say the least.
    Well, it tells something about their mindset anyway, doesn't it...??

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  37. #20
    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldowas View Post
    Well, it tells something about their mindset anyway, doesn't it...??
    It tells me more about the prejudiced and skewed mindset of Professor Altemeyer than it does about anything else. I suppose the good professor does not realise that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot slaughtered more people from 1930 to 1978 than were killed during more than two centuries of Christian Crusades? Che Guavara routinely murdered prisoners when he was the commandant of La Cabana prison, yet people such as this professor idolise him. I can tell you from personal experience, that there was far less crime under the apartheid "regime" in South Africa than there is under the current culturally diverse, liberal democracy.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  38. #21
    Great Marshal Waldowas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    It tells me more about the prejudiced and skewed mindset of Professor Altemeyer than it does about anything else. I suppose the good professor does not realise that Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot slaughtered more people from 1930 to 1978 than were killed during more than two centuries of Christian Crusades? Che Guavara routinely murdered prisoners when he was the commandant of La Cabana prison, yet people such as this professor idolise him. I can tell you from personal experience, that there was far less crime under the apartheid "regime" in South Africa than there is under the current culturally diverse, liberal democracy.
    I don't know Prof. Altemeyer personally, but I would be very surprised if he's not aware of those basic facts known by practically everyone, but that's really not the point, because authoritarian mindset doesn't necessarily require right-wing political leanings although especially in the American context there seems to be a rather strong correlation between those. In other countries and societies that correlation doesn't seem to be as strong. Below again a bit more information about the issue as you seem to have a somewhat limited perspective to that issue:

    "Right and left

    The "right wing" in right-wing authoritarianism does not necessarily refer to someone's politics, but to psychological preferences and personality. It means that the person tends to follow the established conventions and authorities in society. In theory, the authorities could have either right-wing or left-wing political views.

    Milton Rokeach's dogmatism scale was an early attempt to measure pure authoritarianism, whether left or right. The scale was carefully designed to measure "closed mindedness" without regard to ideology. Nevertheless, researchers found that it correlated with British political conservativism. In a similar line of research, Philip Tetlock found that right wing beliefs are associated with less integrative complexity than left wing beliefs. People with moderate liberal attitudes had the highest integrative complexity in their cognitions.

    There have been a number of other attempts to identify "left-wing authoritarians" in the United States and Canada. These would be people who submit to leftist authorities, are highly conventional to liberal viewpoints, and are aggressive to people who oppose left-wing ideology. These attempts have failed because measures of authoritarianism always correlate at least slightly with the right. There are certainly extremists across the political spectrum, but most psychologists now believe that authoritarianism is a predominantly right-wing phenomenon.

    Although authoritarians in North America generally support conservative political parties, this finding must be considered in a historical and cultural context. For example, during the Cold War, authoritarians in the United States were usually anti-communist, whereas in the Soviet Union, authoritarians generally supported the Communist Party and were opposed to capitalism. Thus, authoritarians generally favor the established ways and oppose social and political change. Hence, even politics usually labeled as right or left-wing is not descriptive. While Communism in the Soviet Union is seen as leftist, it still inspired the same responses. This leaves questions over what makes various ideologies left or right open to interpretation."

    Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-w...thoritarianism

    Personally I think it would be much better to use the concept authoritarianism just like that without any reference either to right or left, but probably because the RWA type seems to be so much more predominant in the American context, that concept has gained quite wide acceptance and prevalence.

  39. #22
    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Waldowas View Post
    most psychologists now believe that authoritarianism is a predominantly right-wing phenomenon.
    Of course, most psychologists are liberals, so it is hardly surprising that this sort of person would come to the conclusion that "authoritarianism is a predominantly right-wing phenomenon."
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  40. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    Of course, most psychologists are liberals, so it is hardly surprising that this sort of person would come to the conclusion that "authoritarianism is a predominantly right-wing phenomenon."
    Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgment. ~Will Rogers

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    Great Marshal Waldowas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    Of course, most psychologists are liberals, so it is hardly surprising that this sort of person would come to the conclusion that "authoritarianism is a predominantly right-wing phenomenon."
    Oh yes, as most scholars and scientists in general tend to be, and as they also tend to be the most intelligent ones it's not very difficult to come to the certain conclusions as well...

    But as this discussion starts to be rather OT already I think I'll close it at least for the time being.

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