The Recent Immigration Raid

**Athena** · May 29th, 2008, 01:30 PM

Okay. I've changed my mind. On one hand, I think, "We have immigration laws. They are laws, so they must be enforced." After reading Time's article regarding the immigration raid in Iowa, recently, I'm forced to disagree with myself. We've got all sorts of laws that aren't enforced at all. Until we reform the immigration laws to make immigration easier, why can't we just pretend these folks aren't here, rather than ripping their families apart and leaving communities to struggle to support those left behind?

But it's not even just about immigration law and reform, or even the raid itself. The aftermath is absolutely devastating the small town of Postville. Nearly 400 workers in one meat-packing plant, Agriprocessors Inc., were taken into custody. Can you imagine what that does to a community of just over 2,000 citizens? Had this been a disease or tornato that had suddenly taken 400 people, the government would have been handing out all sorts of aid. But, it wasn't. It was a raid, so, I suppose the people left behind are worth less than natural disaster survivors.

Luckily, religious leaders in Postville have jumped into action. You've got Catholics, Lutherans and Jews working together to provide people relief. So are area lawyers, college students and shopkeepers. This town is giving it all they've got to ensure that the people left behind, many of whom are children, are not victimized by circumstance, and it's a story so stirring, I highly recommend you read it.

When you come back, I'd like to know how you think immigration should be dealt with. Also, should the government be assisting the town of Postville with relief?

**Ruby** · May 29th, 2008, 01:39 PM

There was a huge raid like this in New Bedford, MA awhile back that got all sorts of coverage. They raided the plant, took away and deported 100s. In quite a few cases, they deported both parents who were at the plant, leaving their KIDS alone in this country. It was awful. I'd need to look it up, but some businessman stepped in and said he was going to pay all of the legal fees for those swept up. Could it have been Warren Buffet? I have a niggling feeling it was. Anyway, sorry I'm so ill informed, but YES, raids like this have devastating consequences, and are not exactly working as a deterrent for illegal immigration. Instead you cut off families, cripple factories, and eviscerate towns in support of an untenable policy. It reeks.

**Ruby** · May 29th, 2008, 01:41 PM

Shit! Is this "Three Things?" How the f*ck did I end up here??

<<scurries for cover>>

**maryhaze** · May 29th, 2008, 03:33 PM

i remember that MA raid. i remember seeing a little girl, about 7, who came home from school & had no fucking idea where her parents were. she was terrified & rightly so after being alone for a couple of days. bullshit! they want to go after illegals, how about starting with the gangs in L.A.? noooooo, they have guns & they'll fight back. bullshit!

**celtic friend** · May 29th, 2008, 03:35 PM

Would you feel the same way Athena, if it was your identity that they stole?

Should we give relief to a town and a business that knowingly exploits peoples situations, by paying them low wages that are barely liveable forcing them to work longer hours all to turn in a higher profit? You gotta be kidding me!
Athena, I am not sure of the answer to immigration. I know we need to know who is over here for security. I know that illegal immigrants do the jobs we think we are too good for, I am just not sure if that is the right reason for keeping them here.

**Rotten Apple** · May 29th, 2008, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by celtic friend

Would you feel the same way Athena, if it was your identity that they stole?

I don't believe Immigrants steal identities in order to ruin your credit. They only want your SSN so they can work here. However, it seems that all those immigrants working under false SSNs are working under fake numbers period. They belong to no one. So when the illegal immigrants pay $7 billion annually towards social security for benefits they will never collect on, the US gov just puts those files aside into a big pile that they save for figuring out "later."

Should we give relief to a town and a business that knowingly exploits peoples situations, by paying them low wages that are barely liveable forcing them to work longer hours all to turn in a higher profit?

Nope. But how does tearing apart families fix that? The businesses and town that is benefiting from this cheap labor are not being punished. Those children are the ones that suffer. Can you imagine one of YOUR children coming home to no one and not knowing what happened to you? The thought is unbearable. Punish the businesses and people who hire illegals. When there are no jobs, they will leave on their own. And there will be no one to replace them.

Athena, I am not sure of the answer to immigration. I know we need to know who is over here for security.

Since when? I think our own citizens contribute as much to crime as the illegals do. The people they are rounding up in these raids are not highly trained terrorists here to wreak havoc on the US. They are mothers and fathers, poor and uneducated trying to make a better life for their families.

I know that illegal immigrants do the jobs we think we are too good for, I am just not sure if that is the right reason for keeping them here.

I don't think she is arguing to keep them here. I think her argument is more along the lines that these mass raids are not doing any good and in fact actually harming innocent children. The money is better used in a different way.

My take has been and always will be, punish the businesses and US citizens that hire illegal immigrants in a way that will deter them from doing it again. Once people are afraid to hire illegals, there will be no jobs here for them. Once there are no jobs, they will have no reason to stay. Once word spreads, new illegals will have no reason to look to the US for a way to make a better life.

Just be prepared for higher prices on basically everything you consume.

**swivel** · May 29th, 2008, 04:27 PM

Legalize every person in our country. Right now.

Authorize every person in our country the right to bring in 2 family members and have THEM legalized.

Give every one of these people a SSN, get fingerprints and stats, start taxing them, and get rid of the minimum wage altogether. Let the markets determine what a person's work is worth, and let the workers decide what they can and can't live off of. If people don't offer enough, nobody will work for them. Some poor people, with no skills, may have to work two jobs, *HORROR*, 80 hours a week in order to get a leg up. Their children may have to work as well... that is what my ancestors went through.

NO MORE RACISM POSTURING AS PATRIOTISM.

Let's have a massive flood of new citizens. Let's build new cities in the center of our country. Let's pipe seawater from both coasts, and desalinate it on-site for irrigation and personal use. Let's watch our economy boom like never before in history as we increase the number of people consuming, producing, and moving money to and fro.

Stop worrying what color your children will be. If you stay racist, your blood-line will be pure. And if your child falls in love with a foreigner, who the fuck are you to deny them their happiness? Finally, stop worrying what the make-up of our country will be 100 years from now. The planet is massively tilted towards the Asian ethnicities. Nothing will change that. What we need are more Americans, more democratists, more capitalists.

**w8ng4msrgt** · May 29th, 2008, 04:54 PM

How the Iowa raid was different than previous ones. They had planned on arresting 687 but a lot of people didn't come to work. The raid was pretty much announced in advance.

Clip from another story
Change in tactics

Immigration officials appeared committed to avoiding some of the criticism that followed the federal raids in December 2006 at six Swift & Co. meatpacking plants across the country, including one in Marshalltown. Those raids resulted in 1,297 arrests, including about 100 in Iowa.

Critics, including former Gov. Tom Vilsack, accused federal officials of violating the workers' Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures. Federal agents also were criticized for separating parents from their children.

In Postville, ICE spokesman Harold Ort said that the children of anyone detained would be cared for, and that "their caregiver situation will be addressed.

"They were asked multiple times if they have any sole-caregiver issues or any child-care issues," he said.

Forty Agriprocessors workers were later released, with supervision, "on humanitarian grounds," said Dummermuth, the U.S. attorney.

"They assured us the kids were going to be taken care of," said Postville Mayor Robert Penrod.

Penrod said a majority of townspeople understand the plant's role in the Postville economy, while a small number would cheer the raid.

"There's people who hate the Hispanics, and there's people who don't like the Jews and would like to run them out of town," he said.

Link to rest of story.

**Athena** · May 29th, 2008, 05:02 PM

I still don't buy that the anti-illegal immigration stance is always driven by racism. I think people are scared to death of the immdiate effects it would have on the world as we know it, economically. That was always my concern. I've just come to the point where the tragedy that is our immigration policy has overridden that economic concern. Hell, maybe it won't be as bad as I was convinced it would be? Or maybe I can get used to canned vegetables? I suppose we'll see. I think Glenn Beck wrote a good little editorial about the issue. Desalination didn't play into it at any point, but I think it's a moderate piece that uses very similar logic.

If you really want to be compassionate, then help immigrants get jobs here the right way. Help put crippling fines on the employers who knowingly hire illegal workers, help expand and simplify the visa process, and, most importantly, help get people to start thinking with their brains again.

I can dig it.

Swivel, isn't desalination really expensive? Do we even have the technology to desalinate that kind of volume?

**celtic friend** · May 29th, 2008, 05:12 PM

I agree with you Kathy. I always felt that the businesses should be punished.
I feel like it is an insult to these people to allow them to be taken advantage of because of their status. For the most part they are extremely hard workers and they have a great work ethic.
I think they should be allowed to stay if they can get proper i.d. and have a clean criminal background.
I also think that if they commit a murder eligible for the Death Penalty, they should be able to get it. I know of cases where Mexico since it has no death penalty will try and make it so an illegal who commits a crime here can not be DP eligible.
To the ones who are known criminals they should not be allowed to stay at all. While we do have criminals of our own, that makes it all the more reason that we don't need anymore.

As for it being about my children being white, well that is hardly the case at all. Take it for what it's worth but race never crossed my mind.

**celtic friend** · May 29th, 2008, 05:18 PM

Athena,
Could we somehow work into the system a way that they can get at least proper I.D. and a window of time to achieve legal status?

**swivel** · May 29th, 2008, 06:36 PM

Originally Posted by Athena

Swivel, isn't desalination really expensive? Do we even have the technology to desalinate that kind of volume?

Not expensive at all. You just need to charge for the water. The days of free water are coming to an end, anyway. If you buy a bottle of water at the 7/11 you are paying more than desalination would cost, by a very wide margin.

There are two ways to desalinate: You can force water under high pressure through membranes that are have holes only large enough to admit H2O molecules. Or you can collect steam on an inverted bowl, and let the fresh water drip from the edges into a collection trough. I'm a proponent of combining nuclear and desalination to create a self-served inland community that only needs seawater piped in. You use the nuclear fission to boil seawater, drive the turbines with the steam, and then collect the steam (now free of salt) for your fresh water. When demand is higher, use the nuclear power to drive membrane desalination on the side.

There would have to be some treatment and filtering of the steam-water after it leaves the turbines, and you would want the boiler lined to prevent the irradiation of the water. Nuclear power solves so many of our growth problems... we really need to become a world-leader again.

**Pete Bondurant** · May 29th, 2008, 06:52 PM

I care not for them. I care not for their children. Deport them. Do so without remorse. You have my authorisation in this matter.

**CPL CHUD** · May 29th, 2008, 09:46 PM

I'm a huge fan of nuclear power. We need more of it. Now.

I definitely think we should invest in more of it as well as take steps in creating a borderless world, or at least, a borderless hemisphere. I'd take a thousand hard workers that fought to be here over a thousand lazy slouches that think that some birthright gives them permission to suck the government they were born into dry.

**The Diabolical Mr. Lieman** · May 29th, 2008, 10:53 PM

I think race subconsciously crosses all of our minds a little on this matter. Would we be this upset if mexicans turned into swedes, or would we walk around with raging hard ons all the time? But mexicans can be ugly, they parade around in large groups never giving a fuck to learn the English language, and inside, many of us resent them for it. It's natural, and quite frankly, so is racism. We're all fucking guilty of it. I mean, the guy here who harps on racism most, uses it when convenient to grate on gprime. It's all fun, when you joke about atrocities, and poke fun at scores of families broken apart and murdered just to get on someone's nerves. It's total hypocrisy, and we're all guilty of it. All of us.

I've been guilty of mexican bashing a lot, and I'm not proud of it, but I won't lie about it. I've said it before, that on job sites, I really don't take an ounce of shit from them. If they talk to me in spanish, I'll mime them to fuck off, or tell them to speak to me in English, or don't speak to me again. I'm not going to learn that shit. I'm just not. I'm a racist on many levels, and I wish I wasn't, but I'm honest about it. There are times I really have to step back, and check myself. Times Im ashamed of myself. I'm not the guy who refers to them as wetbacks, or blacks as niggers, but Im that guy who resents the shit out of them, and feels no mercy when we talk about the "poor illegals", and yeah, I flinch when I read shit like "civilians commit crime, just like illegals do"....that awful kind of justification....it doesn't need to be justified because regular legals do, just as it doesn't need to be vilified because it's done by an illegal. People commit crimes. THere are scores more wonderful human beings who are illegal than there are criminals.

ALL THIS SAID....I think splitting up families is DISGUSTING. I dont give a fuck if theyre illegal....give them their fucking papers, whatever, but to split families is sickening, and turns my stomach. It makes me want to cry. Sappy as it is, it makes me sad. Because all the shit above being true, inside I know I'm full of shit largely, and I know too many dudes who are probably illegal, who've worked for me, with me, who inside I love like brothers. THe Kings...the Carloses...the Marios...the names that mean something to only me, that make me smile when I think about them, the kind of guys I'd hug for a hello, and scruffle their hair and laugh at them because theyre silly, cool, sweet men who are excellent family men.

THis is why there IS no good answer for this, but I can only say this makes me sad, reading about some of this. It's horrifying, honestly, some of it. ANd it makes me have to go look in the mirror, and at times, be ashamed of some of my blatant ignorance, and my malevolence.

**swivel** · May 29th, 2008, 10:55 PM

^^ Double thanks.

**TheLittleFriend** · May 29th, 2008, 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by The Diabolical Mr. Lieman

ALL THIS SAID....I think splitting up families is DISGUSTING. I dont give a fuck if theyre illegal....give them their fucking papers, whatever, but to split families is sickening, and turns my stomach. It makes me want to cry. Sappy as it is, it makes me sad. Because all the shit above being true, inside I know I'm full of shit largely, and I know too many dudes who are probably illegal, who've worked for me, with me, who inside I love like brothers. THe Kings...the Carloses...the Marios...the names that mean something to only me, that make me smile when I think about them, the kind of guys I'd hug for a hello, and scruffle their hair and laugh at them because theyre silly, cool, sweet men who are excellent family men.

Yes, it is disgusting to see the the families split. But I know they are awared of the risks of coming here. They come here for a better life and make choice to have children legally in America. That is a risk. I don't like it, but what can we change about this? I mentioned in other thread, about calling police on illegal immgrant because his children were out, alone. I did not know he is illegal, I only called police on him because the children were on my yard without being watch. He deported. I have an angry girlfriend, three blocks away from me....pissed at me because I had him deport. He and the gf should've been more extra careful...not let this kind of shit happened. I'm glad that I caught the children before they get kill by the car!

**celtic friend** · May 30th, 2008, 09:41 AM

That was a great post, Lieman.
For me, when I posted what I did, I did not honestly think of race. See being Hispanic for me is not a negative, my ex-Stepmom and my sister on my Dad's side is Puerto Rican. I personally thought of all of the reasons for not wanting illegals here. Have I ever thought of race in a situation I would be a liar if I said not, just not in this one.

Also, while it is horrible for these people to be torn from their families, did these illegals not realize what was going to happen if they got caught? When are we responsible for our own situation?
I would like a program to allow them to stay for a certain amount of time, know who they are REALLY, and then have a grace period to become citizens. There really is no easy answer for this.

**Smartypants** · May 30th, 2008, 09:58 AM

Oh, what a web we weave. :spider:

**Athena** · May 30th, 2008, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by celtic friend

Also, while it is horrible for these people to be torn from their families, did these illegals not realize what was going to happen if they got caught? When are we responsible for our own situation?
I would like a program to allow them to stay for a certain amount of time, know who they are REALLY, and then have a grace period to become citizens. There really is no easy answer for this.

I don't think anyone's saying they're not responsible. Yes, they most likely knew the risk and took it anyway. My position is, the risk shouldn't exist, ESPECIALLY for illegal immigrants who are gainfully employed. They came here to work, to contribute to our economy. The RAND Corporation determined that, not only do they account for a VERY slight portion of social services spending (2-3%), crime is not linked to immigrant populations in this country. So, why kick them out? When plants like this are raided, employees should automatically be granted visas for themselves and any family members they may be supporting, and these visas should easily transition into naturalization, should that be desired by the worker.

There's no reason we can't make this happen. People are scared, be it xenophobia or economic concerns...And that's why we won't do it.

I must say, though...At least we're not Italy.

**The Diabolical Mr. Lieman** · May 30th, 2008, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by celtic friend

That was a great post, Lieman.
For me, when I posted what I did, I did not honestly think of race. See being Hispanic for me is not a negative, my ex-Stepmom and my sister on my Dad's side is Puerto Rican. I personally thought of all of the reasons for not wanting illegals here. Have I ever thought of race in a situation I would be a liar if I said not, just not in this one.

Also, while it is horrible for these people to be torn from their families, did these illegals not realize what was going to happen if they got caught? When are we responsible for our own situation?
I would like a program to allow them to stay for a certain amount of time, know who they are REALLY, and then have a grace period to become citizens. There really is no easy answer for this.

The answer is yes, they do have responsibility, and they knew it was a risk. It's tough. It's just a horrible, horrible risk, and on this occasion, it backfired. I'm glad Im not them.

**WryBread** · May 30th, 2008, 10:09 PM

Send the white illegals home first. It's all the same to me. To me it's not a matter of race.

Illegal immigrants are criminals by definition. It doesn't matter why they come here. The guy who steals your tv wants a better life for his family, too. He wants to watch your tv or do something with the money that he'll get from selling it. Excuse the woman who stole your identity because having come here illegally, she needs an illegal i.d. to hold down a job illegally?
Come on.

Put the employers of illegal aliens in jail for a long time, seize their assets and beggar them? Fine with me, too.

**celtic friend** · May 31st, 2008, 06:50 PM

I was thinking about this a little more, and I don't know if I agree that we should give a pass to everyone that is caught being an illegal. First, they are knowingly commiting a crime, there are ways to get into this country legally. Secondly, what does that say to all of the citizens that do it the hard way and try to become citizens? What would be their motivation, all they would have to do is simply come over here, and poof you are good.
The system is broken from the inside, from the starting gate so to speak, and that has to be fixed before we can figure out what to do with the millions of illegals here now. Whatever, we choose will have an impact on how people in the future approach coming here.

**w8ng4msrgt** · May 31st, 2008, 07:43 PM

Originally Posted by Athena

I don't think anyone's saying they're not responsible. Yes, they most likely knew the risk and took it anyway. My position is, the risk shouldn't exist, ESPECIALLY for illegal immigrants who are gainfully employed. They came here to work, to contribute to our economy. The RAND Corporation determined that, not only do they account for a VERY slight portion of social services spending (2-3%), crime is not linked to immigrant populations in this country. So, why kick them out? When plants like this are raided, employees should automatically be granted visas for themselves and any family members they may be supporting, and these visas should easily transition into naturalization, should that be desired by the worker.

There's no reason we can't make this happen. People are scared, be it xenophobia or economic concerns...And that's why we won't do it.

I must say, though...At least we're not Italy.

I am not sure where you got your numbers above so I did some looking for myself.

they do not appear to take into account new restrictions on assistance to legal and illegal immigrants, which may have a particularly dramatic effect on reducing eligibility for welfare benefits among poor families in California--in 1994, approximately 15 percent of California families receiving AFDC were noncitizens (California Department of Social Services, 1995). Finally, they assume that states will maintain their current level of effort in funding

Rand Link

I then went and looked for the CA AFDC funding levels. I found this info for the 95-96. I could go back and look for 94-95 but I am not.

General Fund Cost (1995-96): $2.6 billion for benefits, $271 million for administration.
Serves as a "pass through" for over $3 billion in federal funds for benefits and administration.

Link

5.871 billion dollars at 15% is $880,650,000 going to non-citizens for a welfare benefit. That is one benefit from one state and when you add it up nation wide the dollar is staggering.

**Pete Bondurant** · June 1st, 2008, 03:30 PM

You will be over-run by the mestizo latin peoples in due course! Best you all learn pidgin Spanish. I wish you all luck living in the United States of Mexamerica! Purchase your sombreros now. You will soon be forced to drive those ridiculous bouncing vehicles while listening to samba music. Enjoy the future Americans. Your nation will soon be the equal of Peru!

**Rotten Apple** · June 1st, 2008, 03:33 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant

You will be over-run by the mestizo latin peoples in due course! Best you all learn pidgin Spanish. I wish you all luck living in the United States of Mexamerica! Purchase your sombreros now. You will soon be forced to drive those ridiculous bouncing vehicles while listening to samba music. Enjoy the future Americans. Your nation will soon be the equal of Peru!

I.CANNOT.FUCKING.WAIT.

(You really have no clue do you? You are mixing up your stereotypes...badly I might add.)

**Pete Bondurant** · June 1st, 2008, 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by Kathy

(You really have no clue do you? You are mixing up your stereotypes...badly I might add.)

I really have no clue. I am mixing up my stereotypes.

**The Diabolical Mr. Lieman** · June 1st, 2008, 05:55 PM

Both hilarious and bizarre.

**Athena** · June 1st, 2008, 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by w8ng4msrgt

I am not sure where you got your numbers above so I did some looking for myself.

they do not appear to take into account new restrictions on assistance to legal and illegal immigrants, which may have a particularly dramatic effect on reducing eligibility for welfare benefits among poor families in California--in 1994, approximately 15 percent of California families receiving AFDC were noncitizens (California Department of Social Services, 1995). Finally, they assume that states will maintain their current level of effort in funding

Rand Link

I then went and looked for the CA AFDC funding levels. I found this info for the 95-96. I could go back and look for 94-95 but I am not.

General Fund Cost (1995-96): $2.6 billion for benefits, $271 million for administration.
Serves as a "pass through" for over $3 billion in federal funds for benefits and administration.

Link

5.871 billion dollars at 15% is $880,650,000 going to non-citizens for a welfare benefit. That is one benefit from one state and when you add it up nation wide the dollar is staggering.

Note that "non-citizen" and "illegal immigrant" are two completely different things. While "non-citizen" would include illegal immigrants, it is not limited to illegal immigrants. It includes all legal immigrants who have not gone through the naturalization process, as well.

**Athena** · June 1st, 2008, 06:09 PM

Originally Posted by Kathy

I.CANNOT.FUCKING.WAIT.

(You really have no clue do you? You are mixing up your stereotypes...badly I might add.)

LMAO. Speaking of "mixing" - I was getting my nails done a couple of weeks ago on a very warm day. The door to the nail shop was propped open and there was a young man of Mexican ethnicity sportin' a Mustang with the top down, adorned with very stereotypically "Mexican" decorations (chrome detailing, a Mother Mary decal, a Mexican flag with tassles hanging from the rearview mirror)...Rockin' some particularly fine Cuban salsa. I was sad when the light turned green.