Uninsured Immigrant Patients Sent Home for Care Against Their Will

[TheMorningStar]

Hundreds of legal and illegal immigrants in Arizona are being sent back to their home countries, sometimes against their will, for medical treatment because they lack insurance.
In some cases, the FBI and police, responding to allegations of kidnapping, have been called in to halt such forcible removals, according to patients' lawyers.

The forcible removals are the result of federal and state law mandating that only U.S. citizens and legal residents are eligible for Medicaid. As a result, state hospitals are pressured to transport noncitizens, even if they're legally in the U.S., at the hospitals' expense, back to their home countries, at a cost of up to $100,000.


http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/sto...4903138&page=1

They are doing this to people who are here legally.

The alarming scenario has come to light in recent weeks with the dramatic case of Sonia Iscoa Del Cid, a house cleaner in the country legally under temporary protected status, who woke up from a coma last week only to realize that she was going to be forced back to her native Honduras because she lacked insurance for long-term care.

The scenario was not unfamiliar to Fernando Gaxiola, an attorney who said he has prevented three attempted forcible removals of uninsured clients. "One was a baby born in Arizona and because the parents couldn't pay and they were Mexican, University Medical Center in Tucson tried to fly the child to a hospital in Mexico," he said."They were waiting to move the child from the helicopter to an air ambulance when the police intervened."


Would this be acceptable if they were here illegally? Not exactly cheap to send them back. I am not happy that tax paying Americans are paying these bills, but on the other hand everyone should have the right to life.

A spokesman for University Medical Center, Katie Riley, declined to discuss specific cases but explained that the hospital has transported hundreds of patients back to their home countries.

"There are certainly some who are not happy," she said. "In most cases, long-term care [facilities] won't take people if they don't pay. And we have no choice."

So, the long-term care facilities in their country of orgin take them in? I really wonder what happens to these people.

[Athena]

While I don't necessarily believe that everyone has the right to free health care, the trip back, being paid at the hospital's expense, seems anything but cheap.

I wonder in how many cases it would just be cheaper to treat them on the hospital's dime rather than transport them back to god knows where?

[Pete Bondurant]

I am bloody f*cking sick of these people. Not only should we send them back to their home nations, we should charge those nations for the costs therein, if they do not pay, then we take it out of the AID shipments we send them. End of story.

[gprime]

Would this be acceptable if they were here illegally? Not exactly cheap to send them back. I am not happy that tax paying Americans are paying these bills, but on the other hand everyone should have the right to life.

A right to life means a right to not be murdered by another individual after birth unless you give up said right by killing or attempting to unlawfully kill another human being. However, there is no right to preservational assistance that extends life. In other words, there is no right to food, no right to shelter, and certainly no right to health care. The truth is, if healthcare were available to everybody, there would be no "excess profits". And that means less money to be allocated to research and development, thus fostering far fewer medical breakthroughts. Inequality among access to private services is needed to sustain productivity, thereby ensuring better results to those who have earned the financial priviledge of benefiting from it.

[Athena]

All well and good, gprime, but what do you think about the hospitals transporting these people out of country on their own dime, sometimes against their will?

That strikes me as painfully inefficient. Furthermore, those here legally should not be transported anywhere, they should simply be denied treatment.

[gprime]

All well and good, gprime, but what do you think about the hospitals transporting these people out of country on their own dime, sometimes against their will?

That strikes me as painfully inefficient. Furthermore, those here legally should not be transported anywhere, they should simply be denied treatment.

I fully agree with you. The illegals should be turned over to INS, and the legal immigrants who cannot afford care should be denied service.

[w8ng4msrgt]

I fully agree with you. The illegals should be turned over to INS, and the legal immigrants who cannot afford care should be denied service.

The illegals leave there wallet at home and the hospital can't ask them their status so it is a free trip to the ER. I imagine if it was something long term it would be different.

[TheMorningStar]

I find the lack of compassion for these people disturbing.

Here is one of the cases from the article:
In another case, Gaxiola said one of his clients visiting the country on a tourist visa was transported from Tucson to a small town on the Mexican border.

"I called the FBI and the police," he said. "When the ambulance got to the border, the border patrol agent asked to speak to the passenger in the vehicle, who said he didn't want to be transported. The police responded, and he got back to Tucson."


According to the responces here, if you guys were on a vacation to another country and had a stroke, it would be perfectly alright for them to refuse you service (how well do you know your health insurance policy? Are you SURE it would cover you abroad?). What if you were abroad on a work visa?

A right to life means a right to not be murdered by another individual after birth unless you give up said right by killing or attempting to unlawfully kill another human being. However, there is no right to preservational assistance that extends life. In other words, there is no right to food, no right to shelter, and certainly no right to health care.

You are correct that I used the wrong phrase "right to life".
So you are against all forms of government assistance. No food stamps, no homeless shelters, no disability, no unemployment, no housing projects, no government backed student loans, no SCHIP or CHIP, no help buying a house ( no Fannie Mae/Freddy Mac, FHA, HUD ).

I have never used any of these services, I hope you never have to either.

Inequality among access to private services is needed to sustain productivity, thereby ensuring better results to those who have earned the financial priviledge of benefiting from it.

This question is to everybody who shares Gprime's opinion. Are you sure nobody in the history of your family ever had to use any of the above government services to put you in the position you are in today (up on that high horse)? No government student loans, no Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac FHA or HUD loans? Personaly, I would love to see government backed lending to students and potential homeowners stopped but I think that is off topic.

Let us not forget these people are here legally. In almost all 50 states, car insurance is manditory. As far as I am concearned health insurance should be manditory too, even if you are here on vacation or on a work visa - problem fixed.

[petrina]

this is a tough one for me to discuss. it hits very close to home for me. i am a social worker and i work with people who are hiv positive.

as you may know, medical care and medication is the only way to survive hiv - unless you are one of the very very very very few who are long-term non-progressors, and the virus will catch up with you eventually. and you also probably know people who have watched most or all of their friends die from this virus before today's antiretroviral therapy was developed - or perhaps you have experienced this yourself. and you also probably know that hiv medications cost over a thousand dollars a month.

it is very hard for me to look at someone - regardless of where they were born - and say "tough shit, you lose". and it sure as hell seems against the will of our forefathers who drafted the constitution to say "you were born somewhere else or look like you were born somewhere else and so we are gonna ship your ass away even when you are sick enough to seek hospitalization."

ok so thats it i guess. i could go on but that would be boring and pretentious and annoying.

[WryBread]

If they're here illegally, they need to be deported asap. There is one young woman here, snuck into the country by her parents at an early age, who is waiting for her FOURTH liver transplant, all of which operations were done here and paid for by taxpayers. Why has she had three livers while others die waiting for one chance?

Yeah, sometimes people just plain lose. American citizens go without health care all the time because their job doesn't offer it and they can't afford to buy it. I have a friend who is weighing whether he should pursue treatment for his terminal condition and beggar his family, or die earlier and leave them something to live on.

Illegal aliens are criminals. Their health care becomes our problem because they are here -- illegally. Send them back to where they are legal residents and let their own government help them.

[SqueakyClean]

Somebody who's here LEGALLY is a different ballgame to me. If they're here because they like America, they're working, they're paying taxes, they're being a good "guest" in their adopted country, and most of all they did the legwork to be here in a way that is concurrent with our laws, I don't have a problem with it. It's the people that think we can shove our laws and they can do whatever the hell they want, not follow the rules, not pay taxes, then expect us to take them on as a charity case. No thanks.

[TheMorningStar]

If they're here illegally, they need to be deported asap. There is one young woman here, snuck into the country by her parents at an early age, who is waiting for her FOURTH liver transplant, all of which operations were done here and paid for by taxpayers. Why has she had three livers while others die waiting for one chance?

Illegal aliens are criminals. Their health care becomes our problem because they are here -- illegally. Send them back to where they are legal residents and let their own government help them.

Yes, I started that thread: http://www.dreamindemon.com/forums/s...ead.php?t=3155
I think that thread is a great place to vent about free health care for illegals.

The current topic deals with people that are here legally.

Yeah, sometimes people just plain lose. American citizens go without health care all the time because their job doesn't offer it and they can't afford to buy it. I have a friend who is weighing whether he should pursue treatment for his terminal condition and beggar his family, or die earlier and leave them something to live on.

Thank you for this. What are your views regarding health care and visitors from other countries who are here legally?

[Athena]

Let us not forget these people are here legally. In almost all 50 states, car insurance is manditory. As far as I am concearned health insurance should be manditory too, even if you are here on vacation or on a work visa - problem fixed.

Because mandatory car insurance has stopped the problem of uninsured accidents, right? ;) We can try to make it mandatory, but those who can't or choose not to afford it still won't. It doesn't solve the problem by a long shot.

And, please, don't mistake our endeavor to look at the situation logically and objectively as a lack of compassion. I can only imagine how awful it would be to have something happen to you in another country, be denied medical service and then dumped off at some random border. It's a ridiculous policy for the hospitals AND the injured.

But, really, what are hospitals supposed to do? Did you know that hospitals in rural areas are sometimes forced out of business because they have to treat so many uninsured? These establishments are still businesses, and they can only hand out so many free services before they go belly-up.

So, you've got a couple of options, from my perspective.

Option #1.) Universal health care. This way, the cost associated with treating the uninsured foreigners can be spread equally among us. Of course, the standard of care would undoubtedly drop in some areas, because our government is RETARDED and would probably have the new health care system headed up by the DHS. Of course, as with all social services, you're forcing some to pay for the others. I suppose your politics will determine whether or not you're willing to swallow that.

Option #2.) Start a non-profit. I mean, why not? It can be a fund that hospitals can bill for the work they do on legal immigrants. You can use stories like these you've posted to garner support. I'll donate.

[celtic friend]

I am not for treating these people.
In the city near where I live a Children's Hospital just went under because of the amount of people that they have to treat that had no insurance.
I am not for universal health care, I am not waiting 6 months plus for a doctors app. It is already almost that bad now for a specialist. I don't want a overworked, underpaid surgeon working on my son. Schooling cost's so much money today, how would the government keep up the level of pay to match those costs? Where would the desire be to be the BEST at your specific specialty? What about overworked doctors? In Britain I read it takes 6-7 months for an app. we can't lack quality for quantity.

There is CHIP for uninsured kids, there also is medicaid now for people here legally. I am all for these programs staying in place, though I admit to hating that I have to pay each week for my insurance and then a copay of 20 just for the pediatrician, when I see mom's at the office with like 4 kids all on medicaid and the mom has her nails and hair done, plus all outfitted in name brand clothes, that gets me I admit.

Programs are in place to help people in need, I would be a fool to think that all who need are getting everything simply because they are legally here but universal health care is not the way. If there ever is case where a citizen can not get help from these systems they need to become their own advocate for health, notify all orgs. that they know of that deal with this situation, appeal decisions, you can't be lazy about it.

Logically we can't save everyone or even help everyone, and if we start making doctors act like they can, we all will suffer.

[celtic friend]

I do believe in helping our own Morning Star I wanted to clarify that, I also would work very hard to help someone I knew of that needed help. I would do my best to get them resources for care. I belong to a group that has a fund for heart kids families to help them pay bills in their time of need. So please all don't think I don't have a heart, I do.
Many hospitals also work with charities that offer assistance in paying for your bills. If anyone has trouble paying they should apply for this.

[Nell]

One of the hospitals in my hometown went under, leaving just one for a huge county and surrounding areas. This is an area where there is one hospital for hours each way. You have to wait 6-7 hours at the emergency room most times. That said, I like the idea of the non profit or universal health care. Waiting 6 months is better than no insurance. I had no insurance until recently. I don't know about elsewhere, but in Oregon even if you are destitute it is damn near immpossible to get medicaid without kids. Single people are screwed! And dental insurance? Ha! I have broken fillings and had to file them down numerous times.

I know the logistics and the money problems involved. I do. But I have too much compassion in my heart for poor people who are working hard and here legally to say fuck off, you got no money so die!

[Athena]

Waiting 6 months is better than no insurance. I had no insurance until recently. I don't know about elsewhere, but in Oregon even if you are destitute it is damn near immpossible to get medicaid without kids. Single people are screwed! And dental insurance? Ha! I have broken fillings and had to file them down numerous times.

I know the logistics and the money problems involved. I do. But I have too much compassion in my heart for poor people who are working hard and here legally to say fuck off, you got no money so die!

That's easy for someone who's been uninsured to say. What about someone like me who's never been uninsured a day in their life and who's never had to wait more than 2 weeks for an appointment? Should I be forced into some government-run healthcare system that drops my standard of living significantly? How is that fair? Besides, what happens when you need immediate treatment for something like an ear infection or a toothache? 6 months may as well be no insurance under those circumstances. Brits resort to pulling their own teeth sometimes, it so hard to find a publically funded dentist. But, hooray for socialized medicine, right?

Non-profits are beautiful things. They can provide focused, efficient support to those who truely need it, without stepping on any toes. Odds are, an organization that would provide healthcare to foreign visitors or students would be supported, in part, by industries who cater to these factions of society. Private school, the tourism industry, etc.

It's easy to say you've got compassion, but how are you showing it? Odds are, the University of Oregon's medical program or a local hospital sponsors a free clinic for low income residents...Why don't you donate to them?

[TheMorningStar]

And, please, don't mistake our endeavor to look at the situation logically and objectively as a lack of compassion.

Furthermore, those here legally should not be transported anywhere, they should simply be denied treatment.

Sorry, but I dont see this as being logical or objective.

That's easy for someone who's been uninsured to say. What about someone like me who's never been uninsured a day in their life and who's never had to wait more than 2 weeks for an appointment?

You are very lucky Athena. When I got sick, I had Personal Choice and my life was saved because of it. Having such a great insurance definately opened doors for me. However, even with top notch insurance, I had to wait 8 months to see the Neurologist my Neurosurgeon referred me to. 8 months of needless suffering.

Should I be forced into some government-run healthcare system that drops my standard of living significantly? How is that fair? Besides, what happens when you need immediate treatment for something like an ear infection or a toothache? 6 months may as well be no insurance under those circumstances. Brits resort to pulling their own teeth sometimes, it so hard to find a publically funded dentist. But, hooray for socialized medicine, right?

Non-profits are beautiful things. They can provide focused, efficient support to those who truely need it, without stepping on any toes. Odds are, an organization that would provide healthcare to foreign visitors or students would be supported, in part, by industries who cater to these factions of society. Private school, the tourism industry, etc.

Option #1.) Universal health care. This way, the cost associated with treating the uninsured foreigners can be spread equally among us. Of course, the standard of care would undoubtedly drop in some areas, because our government is RETARDED and would probably have the new health care system headed up by the DHS. Of course, as with all social services, you're forcing some to pay for the others. I suppose your politics will determine whether or not you're willing to swallow that.

Option #2.) Start a non-profit. I mean, why not? It can be a fund that hospitals can bill for the work they do on legal immigrants. You can use stories like these you've posted to garner support. I'll donate.

This is interesting to me. How about a third option? I think several non profit health insurance companies that are not government run would be a great. They would compete with the profit making insurance companies forcing prices down for those of us who already have insurance. At the same time they could provide some kind of bare minimum coverage to citizens and legal visitors to America. When they apply for their visa, they should be required to get this bare minimum coverage and maintain it for the length of their stay or their visa will get revoked and they get the boot.

[celtic friend]

One of the hospitals in my hometown went under, leaving just one for a huge county and surrounding areas. This is an area where there is one hospital for hours each way. You have to wait 6-7 hours at the emergency room most times. That said, I like the idea of the non profit or universal health care. Waiting 6 months is better than no insurance. I had no insurance until recently. I don't know about elsewhere, but in Oregon even if you are destitute it is damn near immpossible to get medicaid without kids. Single people are screwed! And dental insurance? Ha! I have broken fillings and had to file them down numerous times.

I know the logistics and the money problems involved. I do. But I have too much compassion in my heart for poor people who are working hard and here legally to say fuck off, you got no money so die!

Six months is not better when it is a life or death situation. Do you want to be the 36 patient your surgeon worked on in that day alone?
What about elective surgeries, are they just out the window then? Most TOF surgeries are done electively right now, because of the damage a Tet spell can cause, do we get rid of that, and only do immediate need surgeries?
You think you have a long wait in the ER now, wait till Universal health care.
I still say there are plenty of ways to help out the citizens that are here, many groups offer help, you just like I said before have to be your own advocate. Now if we start treating these illegals for free, we might as well just let everyone in the world become a citizen of the U.S., that is what that would be equal to, when does it stop?
As for dental care, most dental insurances suck. We treat it like we treat mental health, IMO.
The average person with good dental hygiene lives about 7 years longer than the person with poor dental health, but you need to be able to afford the care first.

[Athena]

Sorry, but I dont see this as being logical or objective.

As opposed to the hospital paying to transport them? It's both logical and objective. I'm sorry you can't see that.

You are very lucky Athena. When I got sick, I had Personal Choice and my life was saved because of it. Having such a great insurance definately opened doors for me. However, even with top notch insurance, I had to wait 8 months to see the Neurologist my Neurosurgeon referred me to. 8 months of needless suffering.

Are you suggesting your insurance influenced your wait time? I'm not sure I follow. I can all but guarantee you that a switch from private to public healthcare would not have gotten you seen any sooner.

This is interesting to me. How about a third option? I think several non profit health insurance companies that are not government run would be a great. They would compete with the profit making insurance companies forcing prices down for those of us who already have insurance. At the same time they could provide some kind of bare minimum coverage to citizens and legal visitors to America. When they apply for their visa, they should be required to get this bare minimum coverage and maintain it for the length of their stay or their visa will get revoked and they get the boot.

I don't believe I suggested that the two options I posed were the only options, but they are the two most realistic. While your suggestion is a very good one, it'll never happen. Temporary, supplimental insurance is very expensive, even if you saw insurance costs go down. Tourism would plummet if tourists and such had to purchase insurance to come here, and the tourism industry's lobbists (which are often our elected representatives) would fight tooth and nail to prevent such legislation.

[petrina]

well, perhaps we MIGHT have to say to some americans that yes, we are asking you to wait another few days so that someone can live. and i dont really see that as a fairness or rights issue. its not fair to make one person wait a few more days or even longer while others are dying from the same symptoms? yes, actually, i think that tho that is not fair, that seems a lot closer to fair to me. just like i am asked to recycle even tho i hate it. or think about carpooling or mass transit. or pay my taxes. i hate all those things. they suck. and they cut into my time and money and convenience and quality of life considerably. but i never thought to consider them unfair.

[Nell]

I didn't even propose any answers to you because I don't have them. I said it sucks for legal people or citizens who work hard to get insurance or health care. That I have been there and understand, so I had compassion for these people. I am not so smart that I think I can figure this out for you at all. And I do help out wherever I can. I have a degree in medical assissting and I have volunteered my time alot.

But seriously Athena, I had to sell my car to pay rent and eat because I am on leave now. So I don't have the extra money to donate to every worthwhile cause.

[celtic friend]

well, perhaps we MIGHT have to say to some americans that yes, we are asking you to wait another few days so that someone can live. and i dont really see that as a fairness or rights issue. its not fair to make one person wait a few more days or even longer while others are dying from the same symptoms? yes, actually, i think that tho that is not fair, that seems a lot closer to fair to me. just like i am asked to recycle even tho i hate it. or think about carpooling or mass transit. or pay my taxes. i hate all those things. they suck. and they cut into my time and money and convenience and quality of life considerably. but i never thought to consider them unfair.

They already do make you wait and take the immediate risk first. I am saying that if it got backed up so far that we could not do surgeries in the safe zone, then what? Perhaps, you should read more about what happens to children with repeated TET spells, they have all sorts of risks. If we took everyone in and saved everyone, the not immediate risk would never get help in time. I can't believe you would even consider recycling on the same level as a life or death situation. So maybe having a cancer and having to wait 6 months to be seen while it spreads is the same as throwing some plastic bottles into a blue bin? ok.
Universal health care is for the birds, it will never work, quality doctors/care is just as important as quantity. If the care is not good, it don't matter for shit anyway.

[petrina]

clearly, this is a very "hot" topic with many variables to consider. i am glad we are able to do so. it will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

[Athena]

Boy, I am just the bad guy, here, aren't I? :p

Nell - I wasn't suggesting you run out and donate today. I simply meant that, when people DO have spare cash, they should spend some of it on the causes that are important to them. Donations can and do fill in the holes.

Petrina - Believe me, darlin', if it was only a matter of waiting a few extra days, I'd gladly do it. But, universal healthcare would be a disaster for the U.S. We're talking wait times increased by weeks, not days. We're talking to an end to medical competition, which could lead to fewer innovations. We're talking significantly increased taxes (you think they're bad now?) and, potentially, inviting the government to further restrict our lifestyles.

More government control means less personal control. I like the freedom to make my own decisions.

And you don't see the fairness and rights issue? You're asking me to pay more money and get crappier service to provide for someone else. If I went to any number of foreign countries and was unfortunate enough to fall ill there but didn't have money or insurance, I'd be totally screwed. Why? Because healthcare is a luxury. Having someone else mend you when you're ill is not some fundamental right you are born with, as much as we'd like it to be.

Can you imagine how many people would come here specifically for free healthcare if we provided it to anyone here legally? People would get work, travel or student visas just to get their teeth worked on or appendectomy. No way the healthcare system could afford to handle that.

Look, guys, I'm not some soulless creature who has no consideration for the folks. But, the fact of the matter is that we cannot save everyone. Sometimes, life just sucks. If you want to improve it, you don't do it by petitioning your government to force more money out of people. You start and organization or you fundraise or you donate funds to an established charity. That's the most effective way to make change, in my opinion.

By the way, CF - We're two for two, lady. Does that mean the end of the world is near? :p

[celtic friend]

Boy, I am just the bad guy, here, aren't I? :p

Nell - I wasn't suggesting you run out and donate today. I simply meant that, when people DO have spare cash, they should spend some of it on the causes that are important to them. Donations can and do fill in the holes.

Petrina - Believe me, darlin', if it was only a matter of waiting a few extra days, I'd gladly do it. But, universal healthcare would be a disaster for the U.S. We're talking wait times increased by weeks, not days. We're talking to an end to medical competition, which could lead to fewer innovations. We're talking significantly increased taxes (you think they're bad now?) and, potentially, inviting the government to further restrict our lifestyles.

More government control means less personal control. I like the freedom to make my own decisions.

And you don't see the fairness and rights issue? You're asking me to pay more money and get crappier service to provide for someone else. If I went to any number of foreign countries and was unfortunate enough to fall ill there but didn't have money or insurance, I'd be totally screwed. Why? Because healthcare is a luxury. Having someone else mend you when you're ill is not some fundamental right you are born with, as much as we'd like it to be.

Can you imagine how many people would come here specifically for free healthcare if we provided it to anyone here legally? People would get work, travel or student visas just to get their teeth worked on or appendectomy. No way the healthcare system could afford to handle that.

Look, guys, I'm not some soulless creature who has no consideration for the folks. But, the fact of the matter is that we cannot save everyone. Sometimes, life just sucks. If you want to improve it, you don't do it by petitioning your government to force more money out of people. You start and organization or you fundraise or you donate funds to an established charity. That's the most effective way to make change, in my opinion.

By the way, CF - We're two for two, lady. Does that mean the end of the world is near? :p

I think it just might be, Athena.

[Rotten Apple]

I simply meant that, when people DO have spare cash, they should spend some of it on the causes that are important to them. Donations can and do fill in the holes.

I have to disagree with that statement. Donations do not fill in the holes. If you have ever worked for or with a non-profit, you know that you have to turn people away all the time. People just do not give enough to cover all the needy. And when times get like they are right now, people give even less and the need is even greater.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

All well and good, gprime, but what do you think about the hospitals transporting these people out of country on their own dime, sometimes against their will?

That strikes me as painfully inefficient. Furthermore, those here legally should not be transported anywhere, they should simply be denied treatment.

Well, it might cost them the same to shovel out 30 immigrants on a bus as it does to give one of them a catscan.....

[celtic friend]

Well, it might cost them the same to shovel out 30 immigrants on a bus as it does to give one of them a catscan.....

If you need immediate care they can not turn you away at a hospital. This is about extended care, if they went a hospital and needed a test they would get it.

[brokenandtwisted]

Eeek bit late on this. I support this for long term care. It's too much of a burden for the hospitals.