Angelica Swartout told family her newborn baby was stillborn

[Robynne]

I know that when a dead body of a woman is found, testing can be done to see if the woman has given birth in their lifetime. So why could they not do some ultrasounds and other tests to prove if she had ever been pregnant or given birth. Your body never returns to it's original form after having a child.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I know that when a dead body of a woman is found, testing can be done to see if the woman has given birth in their lifetime. So why could they not do some ultrasounds and other tests to prove if she had ever been pregnant or given birth. Your body never returns to it's original form after having a child.

I am pretty sure there is some way to tell if a woman's ever given birth BUT can the state force you into doing the testing? I dunno. Wouldn't that be a violation of Fifth Amendment rights against self-incrimination? It's the state's job to prove a crime was committed but you don't have to help them do it.

The link that HB provided has been updated to include the last two paragraphs of this quote:

The defense team contends she never had a child. They say her alleged late-stage pregnancy was a charade designed to maintain the affection and support she began receiving from family members after a positive pregnancy test in January 2010.

A local Planned Parenthood doctor testified in a June pretrial hearing that Swartout had a negative pregnancy test in late March 2010, when the alleged murder victim would have been a third-month fetus if born full-term in October. Swartout falsely told her family that she delivered a still-born son at a local hospital in October 2010 as a way to end her “masquerade,” defense attorney Gordon Mallon said at another pretrial hearing last month.

Mallon and co-counsel Eve*lyn Oldencamp argued then that Swartout made a bogus confession under pressure from Springfield police during two days of interviews last December. But Lane County Circuit Judge Suzanne Chanti denied a defense motion to keep the confession from jurors when Swartout’s trial begins Jan. 10.

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...elica.html.csp

Can they even prove, at this point, that there was a baby to kill?

[penelopejo]

I agree with you DV, but she is trying to say that she never was pregnant to begin with. To give herself more credibility, wouldn't her defense team have already asked her to do this test to prove she was never with/gave birth to begin with and bolster their defense of giving a bogus confession under pressure? Although I believe that negative pregnancy test would be enough to prove she wasn't, I'd want everything and anything to prove I never gave birth and it was all a lie.

[Robynne]

I was just thinking that if her defense team is saying she didn't have a baby, they could have the tests done as proof.

But this statement will definitely help her case...

A local Planned Parenthood doctor testified in a June pretrial hearing that Swartout had a negative pregnancy test in late March 2010, when the alleged murder victim would have been a third-month fetus if born full-term in October.

All I know is that if she did in fact lie about the pregnancy, I feel it's a hell of a lot better than her having the baby and killing it. I don't agree with the "lie" but I like it better than murder.
Just sayin'

[Bohring]

All I know is that if she did in fact lie about the pregnancy, I feel it's a hell of a lot better than her having the baby and killing it. I don't agree with the "lie" but I like it better than murder. Just sayin'

Cheers to that.

[Jerri Blank]

Swartout judge to review police files
Defense lawyers say the personnel material could help clear their 24-year-old client of murder

The judge who will preside over the Jan. 18 murder trial of a Springfield woman accused of smothering a newborn child will review police officer personnel files sought by defense attorneys in the case.

Lane County Circuit Judge Suzanne Chanti decided Friday that she would view the files privately and provide to Angelica Swartout’s defense team any material that could help them clear their client of the murder charge.

The 24-year-old hotel clerk’s lawyers had subpoenaed the records from the city, but City Attorney Matt Cox filed a motion to quash their request, saying the personnel records are protected by privacy laws.

The state alleges that Swartout gave birth to and suffocated a son in the employee restroom of her Springfield workplace in October 2010. Her lawyers say she faked a pregnancy to obtain attention and support from members of her large adoptive family. They presented pretrial testimony from a local doctor that Swartout had a negative pregnancy test six months before the alleged murder.

The defense team contends that she falsely confessed to infanticide under duress of police questioning on two consecutive days. Chanti ruled last year that police obtained the confession legally and that jurors can view it during Swartout’s upcoming aggravated murder trial.

Springfield Police Chief Jerry Smith on Friday delivered the personnel files sought by the defense to a court clerk, carrying the binders and folding files in a large cardboard box.

The defense subpoenaed the records of five officers: four who investigated the Swartout case and another officer that Swartout’s lawyers say may have had an inappropriate interaction with a key state witness in the case.

They alleged they had information that Larry Turner showed inappropriate leniency following a traffic stop of the witness, Swartout’s sister Jewel Sward, because of her importance to the state’s case.

They did not detail the alleged leniency. But a document filed in a divorce proceeding between Sward and her husband includes his allegation that an unnamed Springfield officer stopped Sward in the summer of 2011 on suspicion of drunken driving, but she “was let go” because she is “an important witness for the State in a capital murder case” and because she had had previous contact with the officer. Ironically, that document was filed by Cox, who also initially represented Jewel Sward in her divorce case. He has a general law practice that includes domestic relations cases, as well as handling Springfield’s legal matters. He filed the document in September, in support of a motion to withdraw from representing Jewel Sward in the divorce case, due to a conflict of interest raised by her husband’s allegation against a city employee.

Police Chief Smith said Friday that “no special consideration” was given to Sward by his officers due to her role as a witness in the murder case.

“It’s untrue,” he said of Jeffrey Sward’s allegation.

Smith on Friday reviewed records of his department’s interaction’s with Sward, and found that her only contact with Springfield police last summer was a citation for driving while uninsured. That citation was not issued by Turner, Smith added.

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...fense.html.csp

[Dakota Valkyrie]

A recent doctor’s exam showed signs that alleged child-killer Angelica “Angie” Swartout experienced a full-term pregnancy and childbirth, Deputy Lane County District Attorney Bob Lane told a jury in opening statements at her aggravated murder trial Monday.

That exam, obtained last month with a warrant to search Swartout’s body, showed a vertical line of darkened skin on her lower belly — a phenomenon of advanced pregnancy — and cervical changes consistent with having pushed out a baby, Lane told jurors.

But defense lawyer Eve Oldenkamp told the panel that the same doctor will testify that she can’t be sure Swartout gave birth. Oldenkamp also said the defense will present testimony from another obstetrician that it’s likely Swartout did not give birth.
[...]

The prosecution alleges that Swartout concocted the fake tale to cover up delivering and suffocating a son in a hotel employee bathroom, as she told police in December 2010.

The defense alleges that she falsely confessed due to sleep deprivation and a predisposition to agree with authorities. They faulted police for failing to verify the alleged infanticide by checking the hotel bathroom for traces of blood and other evidence. A defense forensic expert found no such evidence when he studied the alleged crime scene months later, Oldenkamp told jurors.

That’s because Swartout actually concocted the story to cover up the fact that she faked her pregnancy to garner the love and attention she’d long craved in her large adoptive family, the defense lawyer said.
[...]

Jewel Sward, an older sister who caught Swartout in her lie about delivering a stillborn son, was the first witness for the state on Monday. She testified to seeing Angelica Swartout’s unclothed pregnant belly and placing her hand on that “rock-hard” belly during a labor contraction.
[...]

Lilianne Swartout, Angelica Swartout’s biological half-sister as well as her adoptive sister, also testified to seeing her sister’s bare, swollen belly and to seeing and feeling a child moving inside it.
[...]

Lilianne Swartout briefly broke down as she recounted the moment she believed her sister had killed her newborn son: when she found a folder in the apartment containing computer printouts of articles about placental abruption — the condition Angelica Swartout said killed her son in utero.

“I thought at first that she just wanted to be more educated about having Lucias,” she said before choking up. “Then I saw the dates ... that she’d printed this out weeks before it happened. I showed that to Jewel (Sward). She decided we should go to the police.”
[...]

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...child.html.csp

She was called by the state, but a sister testifying Tuesday in the aggravated murder trial of Angelica Swartout sounded more like a defense witness, telling jurors she had “reasonable doubt” that Swartout bore and smothered a baby in December 2010.

Nadine Swartout joined two other sisters, their adoptive mother and four longtime friends of Angelica Swartout in testifying that they saw the 24-year-old hotel clerk’s belly swell before she allegedly delivered and killed a baby boy in a workplace bathroom on Oct. 18, 2010.

Nadine Swartout, 23, said she “definitely, at the time” thought her one-year-older sister was pregnant. “But now ... I don’t know,” she told the jury. She said her certainty was first shaken when she learned that Angelica Swartout had a negative pregnancy test at a Planned Parenthood clinic about six months before the alleged infanticide.

“Thinking beyond a reasonable doubt ... can I be sure that my sister did this?” she testified. “I can’t. I know that my family may be offended, but you have to stand up for what you think is the truth. I don’t know. Maybe only God and Angie know.”

Nadine Swartout and her and Angelica Swartout’s adoptive mother, Ruthanne Swartout Staley, also testified about Angelica Swartout’s tumultuous teen years in a large family that included more than 60 siblings.

Defense attorneys contend Swartout faked the pregnancy to gain support and attention from that family.

And five of Swartout’s longtime Springfield friends testified that they were sure she had what one called “a full-on pregnancy.” Several reported personally feeling her “baby bump,” but most also said she didn’t like her belly touched, wore baggy clothing and asked them not to tell others she was pregnant.

Childhood friend Amber Reed testified, however, that Swartout changed later in her alleged pregnancy, “showing off” what Reed described as her expanding belly by wearing more fashionable maternity clothes. Reed said her friend seemed to become more positive about the idea of becoming a mother after telling Reed and others she’d had an ultrasound showing her unborn baby was a boy.

Under questioning by Swartout’s defense attorney, however, Reed and others acknowledged never seeing such an ultrasound, despite asking to see it.

Earlier Tuesday, a co-worker at Angelica Swartout’s Crossland Hotel workplace testified that she found blood in an employee bathroom when she came to work the night of the alleged murder. Shirley Hogan reported finding two garbage cans containing plastic bags that appeared to be splattered with blood and urine. Hogan said she asked Swartout about the blood, and the clerk said she’d had a miscarriage. Hogan, who said she’d seen no indication that Swartout was pregnant, also reported finding “fresh-looking blood” on sheets in a laundry bin.
[...]

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...adine.html.csp

[Elfearsandvampireteeth]

Is it because these people have a labor that went unrecognized that they are able to decide to do this? Or do they just have the will to conceal it THAT well? I am here to tell you that I WAS IN LABOR FOR 25 FUCKING HOURS. I was inside out/upside down with pain. I wanted to find a way to get out of my body. After labor, I was WHITE AS A SHEET for 2 days. How do these people just go on as if nothing happened? I just cannot fathom concealing labor like so many girls do and then... PLOP, they walk into a bathroom and have a baby at their prom, or like this one - goes to work, has a baby and goes home that night. WhatThe is confused.

Anyhow, didn't anyone think it was weird that this girl didn't call anyone to say, "Hey, I'm in labor!"

Thank you, Anytime I hear about these girls/women having secret deliveries(i.e in the bathroom at their senior prom or the bathroom in the prisons visiting room) I do not get how they stay quiet or naturally deliver so fast and nobody notices!
I am thankful & blessed to have fairly quick labor/delivery but it hurts like a motherfucker and I just can't imagine sqautting in a toilet stall silently pushing a baby out!

I guess these bitches underservedly are not only blessed with fertility but the gift of quick,painless births? WTF!

[Dakota Valkyrie]

A local gynecologist who performed a jail pelvic examination on Angelica Swartout testified Wednesday that “remarkable” evidence of trauma to the accused woman’s cervix suggested she had delivered a baby.

Dr. Melissa Edwards drew a diagram on a large courtroom notepad showing the “pinpoint” opening in the cervix of women who have never given birth. She then drew a picture of the opening she said she saw in Swartout’s cervix, a wide, horizontal gap that curved up at each end.

“I felt there was more evidence to suggest that a baby was born than not,” said Edwards, who practices at Women’s Care Physicians and Surgeons.

“I can’t tell you precisely the size or if it was born alive,” she added.
[...]

Edwards said the exam she conducted last month also showed that Swartout has a vertical line of dark pigmentation from her belly button to her pubic bone, which the doctor called a “classic sign of pregnancy” that typically appears in the second trimester.

Edwards said the upward curves at the end of Swartout’s cervical opening suggest scar tissue from tearing and that tissue from the inside of the organ appeared to have been forced outside in another spot. Both were consistent with pushing out a child before the cervix had sufficiently dilated, she said.

The doctor noted, however, that Swartout had no marks or scars in the perineal tissue surrounding her vagina — unusual for a woman who has delivered a child.

Edwards also said false negative pregnancy tests are not uncommon. For instance, drinking lots of fluids can dilute urine to the point that telltale hormones cannot be detected, she testified.
[...]

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...-body.html.csp

[Obsolete]

Edwards said the exam she conducted last month also showed that Swartout has a vertical line of dark pigmentation from her belly button to her pubic bone, which the doctor called a “classic sign of pregnancy” that typically appears in the second trimester.

Isn't that line common in hispanic women, even without pregnancy?

[penelopejo]

Yes. I had the line even before I got pregnant. It wasn't as dark as it was during my pregnancy, but it was there. Actually, it's still there, just really, really faint.

[Abroad]

Edwards also said false negative pregnancy tests are not uncommon. For instance, drinking lots of fluids can dilute urine to the point that telltale hormones cannot be detected, she testified.

There goes the "but she had a negative pregnany test only six months earlier" excuse.........

[Dakota Valkyrie]

A doctor testifying for the defense told a jury Thursday that she believed it was “more likely than not” that Angelica Swartout, accused of smothering a newborn son, never delivered a child.

The testimony by Medford obstetrician and gynecologist Linda Ruth Harris was the opposite of what jurors heard Wednesday from a local OB/GYN physician called by the state. While both doctors said they could not be sure one way or the other, Dr. Melissa Edwards said the appearance of Swartout’s cervix and other physical characteristics showed more evidence to suggest that a baby was born than not.
[...]

Both medical witnesses are experienced doctors who offered their opinions after performing recent pelvic exams on Swartout at the Lane County Jail.

Harris testified that her practice now includes a Jackson County clinic where about half of her patients are Latinas and Hispanic women. That led her to reach a different conclusion about one feature that both doctors observed in Swartout: a vertical line of darkened skin running from her belly button to her pubic bone.

Edwards called that a sign of pregnancy. But Harris testified Thursday that many dark-skinned women, including Native Americans, have such a line long before becoming pregnant. Swartout’s mother is a member of Canada’s Ojibwa tribe.

Harris told jurors she offered to testify after seeing a defense investigator’s digital photos of Swartout’s cervix during Edwards’ exam. She said she was concerned that Edwards was expected to cite the appearance of that cervix in her testimony, concluding that the accused woman had likely given birth.

“I wanted to see the shape and size of the cervix myself,” Harris said. “I also wanted to make sure that people understood that the shape of the cervix is not always a determinant if someone has delivered vaginally.”

She described Swartout’s cervical opening as smaller and less turned up at each end than Edwards had the previous day. Her drawing for jurors was of a slightly elliptical opening.

Harris also disputed Edwards’ contention that the presence of the outside of tissue normally found on the inside of Swartout’s cervix suggested she had pushed out a baby.

The Medford doctor said she had seen many examples of such “everted tissue” on adolescent women who’d never had a vaginal delivery.

She acknowledged under questioning by prosecutor Bob Lane, however, that Swartout’s cervical opening was not the “classically small, round” opening “that one would see in a textbook.”

Both Edwards and Harris testified that Swartout had no signs of tearing or other trauma to the tissue surrounding her vagina. Harris said Thursday that it would be ”remarkable” for a first-time mother to give birth, unattended, without some tearing in that area.

Harris also testified that she has seen cases of women feigning an entire pregnancy, and that studies have documented such women fooling friends and family members by gaining weight, sticking out their stomachs to make their bellies appear round, or voluntarily contracting muscles to simulate the movement of a baby inside a womb.

Finally, Harris countered Edwards’ testimony that false pregnancy tests are not uncommon, saying a “false negative” test would be unlikely at the gestational age in March of a full-term fetus born in October.
[...]

The trial continues today with jurors slated to watch Swartout’s videotaped confession.

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...-baby.html.csp

[penelopejo]

If I were on that jury, I wouldn't find her guilty because there's not enough evidence to tell me otherwise. Maybe guilty of lying to the police, but not of murdering a child that we don't even know exists.

I find it very odd that there was no sign of either tearing or stretching, even though they are saying she gave birth....

[Dakota Valkyrie]

A Eugene man testified Monday that a Springfield motel clerk accused of killing her newborn son on Oct. 18, 2010, did not appear pregnant when they had sex multiple times earlier that year.

Riley Enriques told a jury in Angelica Swartout’s aggravated murder case that he’d previously had sexual relationships with pregnant women. Enriques did not say how far into the year the encounters occurred with Swartout, but testified that the two frequently had sex when she came by his apartment once or twice a week to “kick back, watch movies, smoke weed and drink.”

Several other defense witnesses testified that Swartout did not appear to be in advanced pregnancy at a summer 2010 baby shower in her honor.

Among them was a friend since third grade, Stephanie Minter, who told jurors that she asked Swartout at the shower: “You’re so small, like, is your baby OK?”

Minter also testified that she went home after the gathering and told her husband that Swartout “didn’t show too much.”

Under questioning from prosecutor Bob Lane, however, Minter testified that she never asked her friend if she really was pregnant, even after placing a hand on Swartout’s belly.
[...]

Swartout is expected to testify today as the defense wraps up its case.

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...-baby.html.csp

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Accused of killing a newborn son, Angelica Swartout took the witness stand Tuesday and demonstrated for jurors how she allegedly pushed out her belly to simulate advancing pregnancy in order to continue receiving support and attention from her large adoptive family.

The 24-year-old hotel clerk testified that she got so “trapped into the story” she’d allegedly concocted after an apparent miscarriage that she “didn’t know how to get out of it.”

Swartout spoke only vaguely about a videotaped December 2010 police interrogation in which she tearfully confessed to delivering and smothering a baby boy in a workplace employee bathroom on Oct. 18, 2010.

“My mind wasn’t processing what was going on at that time. … I didn’t realize at the time I was setting myself up for an aggravated murder charge,” she said in a Lane County courtroom.

She said she didn’t “tell the truth” even when police confronted her because doing so would mean “telling my family I lied to them.”

Under cross-examination by prosecutor Bob Lane, she acknowledged agreeing when police suggested that she delivered a child in the employee bathroom, that the baby was squeaking and gasping for air, and that she wrapped it up so tightly that it couldn’t breathe, then put it in a trash bin.

“I felt they already decided what happened, so I just kept agreeing with them,” she said, later adding: “I felt that even if I told them the truth, I wouldn’t be believed.”

Swartout also told Lane that she didn’t recall telling a co-worker the night of the alleged infanticide that she’d had a miscarriage. The hotel laundry worker testified last week that Swartout offered that explanation after the co-worker found plastic bags that appeared to be spattered with blood and urine in a restroom trash can.

Swartout also appeared to struggle to answer Lane’s questions about why she waited until the summer of 2011 to tell her defense team that she’d faked a pregnancy and never delivered a child.

Under follow-up questioning by defense attorney Gordon Mallon, Swartout said she didn’t want to admit to her family that she’d lied about the pregnancy, and had expected that a police investigation would turn up evidence — such as a negative pregnancy test at a local clinic in March 2010 — that she never had a child. She said “reality kicked in” when she went to a summer 2011 court proceeding and learned that she faced a possible death sentence. The state has since decided not to seek the ultimate punishment if Swartout is convicted.

She began her testimony Tuesday by telling jurors she was “very scared.”

“This is the only chance I have to tell the truth,” she said. “I’m scared that if I’m not believed, I’ll spend the rest of my life in prison.”

But she looked directly at the jury as she responded to Mallon’s request that she “tell the jury how this all got started.”

“I lied. I lied to my family and friends,” she said.

Swartout said she initially told them truthfully that she’d had a positive home pregnancy test while living out of state in early 2010. Feeling “scared and unsure,” she contacted one of her older adoptive sisters, Jewel Sward, and accepted Sward’s invitation to come home to Springfield, Swartout said.

“For the first time in my life since I was a kid, I felt a sense of belonging,” she told the jury. “I mattered to my family all the sudden. ... They thought I was going to have a baby. Babies are big in our family.”

Then, that February, she had some vaginal bleeding. She’d read that such bleeding was possible even during pregnancy, Swartout said, telling jurors: “I didn’t want to think about the other possibility that it could have been a miscarriage.”

After the negative pregnancy test, that “denial” ended, she said. But she pretended the gestation was progressing, she said, because “I was just so into the way I was being treated by my family,” including regular phone calls from her adoptive mother. The acceptance stood in contrast to her teen years, she said, when she was “cast as kind of the black sheep.”

She said she lied about doctor appointments and about having an ultrasound showing she was having a boy. Swartout disputed reports by prosecution witnesses that her belly grew steadily larger with pregnancy in the spring, summer and fall of 2010. She testified that a local mother-child nutrition program recorded her weight as 181 pounds in April 2010, and 180 pounds in June of that year. She said she now weighs about 170 pounds.
[...]

She told the panel of eight women and four men that she carried out the ruse by wearing baggy clothing — “I actually wore a fleece (jacket) all summer” — and pushing out her stomach. At Mallon’s suggestion, she stood in the witness stand and struck the same pose as in a July 28, 2010, photo that her sister provided the state as evidence of her advancing pregnancy.

She said she falsely told friends and family that she delivered a stillborn son at a local hospital on Oct. 18, 2010, “because I was supposed to be having a kid.”
[...]

http://www.registerguard.com/web/new...-didn.html.csp

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Swartout trial ends in hung jury
Judge Suzanne Chanti declares a mistrial after jurors are unable to reach a verdict

The jury went home, the attorneys went back to their offices, and Angelica Swartout went back to jail Wednesday afternoon after Lane County Circuit Judge Suzanne Chanti declared a mistrial in Swartout’s aggravated murder case.

Chanti’s ruling came after jurors convinced her that after four full days of deliberating behind closed doors, they could not reach consensus and decide whether prosecutors proved beyond a reasonable doubt that Swartout killed a newborn son in October 2010.

“Because the jury is hopelessly hung, I do declare a mistrial,” Chanti said.

After releasing the jury, Chanti immediately scheduled a new trial for Swartout for April 16. Lane County sheriff’s deputies then led Swartout back to jail, where she has been held since Springfield police arrested her in December 2010.

Earlier, when jurors returned to the courtroom just after 2:30 p.m. Tuesday, Chanti instructed them not to reveal how many of them lined up on the side of convicting Swartout of murder and how many others felt that prosecutors failed to prove the case.
[...]

Lane County Chief Deputy District Attorney Patty Perlow declined to comment on the case on Wednesday, saying all parties are still prohibited from talking about it outside of court because of a gag order that Chanti previously imposed.

Unless a plea agreement is reached, another trial will proceed — although it is possible that prosecutors could dismiss the charge rather than retry the case.
[...]

http://www.registerguard.com/web/pol...-lane.html.csp

[MotherManderkin]

A few key points I feel I must make... Firstly, yes, there are several ways to tell if a woman has delivered a baby in her lifetime. They cannot be faked. Two I can think of off of the top of my head are the placement of the pelvic bones, and the size of her uterus. No matter when she delivered, be it 2 weeks ago or 20 years ago, those will be different than someone who has never had a baby. The pelvic bones shift during pregnancy and never go back into place. The uterus shrinks after delivery but never goes back to the size it once was.
As far as having a negative pregnancy test 3 months into a pregnancy... *raises hand* I did that too. I had a negative BLOOD pregnancy test 3 months into a pregnancy. It can happen.
Unfortunately, I do not think this child's body will ever be found. Due to that fact, I do not think that she will be convicted. I think we have another Casey Anthony over here who can lay down and bring a child into the world, take it away just as easily without flinching, and then get off on reasonable doubt. Sad.

[Obsolete]

A few key points I feel I must make... Firstly, yes, there are several ways to tell if a woman has delivered a baby in her lifetime. They cannot be faked. Two I can think of off of the top of my head are the placement of the pelvic bones, and the size of her uterus. No matter when she delivered, be it 2 weeks ago or 20 years ago, those will be different than someone who has never had a baby. The pelvic bones shift during pregnancy and never go back into place. The uterus shrinks after delivery but never goes back to the size it once was.
As far as having a negative pregnancy test 3 months into a pregnancy... *raises hand* I did that too. I had a negative BLOOD pregnancy test 3 months into a pregnancy. It can happen.
Unfortunately, I do not think this child's body will ever be found. Due to that fact, I do not think that she will be convicted. I think we have another Casey Anthony over here who can lay down and bring a child into the world, take it away just as easily without flinching, and then get off on reasonable doubt. Sad.

If that's true, then you just made the case that there was never a baby to begin with. The doctor that examined her testified that there wasn't indisputable proof that she had ever given birth. If the uterus and pelvic bones are forever changed after birth it should be pretty easy for them to say "yes, she definitely had a baby".

I don't believe she ever gave birth and if she ever was pregnant, I believe she miscarried during her early stages.

A doctor testifying for the defense told a jury Thursday that she believed it was “more likely than not” that Angelica Swartout, accused of smothering a newborn son, never delivered a child.

[CbabyRKO]

I can't be the only one who has heard of women claiming they were pregnant even tho its a lie and their bodies began to mimic the signs of pregnancy distended belly and morning sickness etc. I don't think she was pregnant. Or if she was she miscarried early on and made up the miscarriage story including the blood in the bathroom of her job. But like her sister said only she and God knows what really happened.

[MotherManderkin]

I think you are probably right. Which makes this story even more mind boggling and sickening. I didn't read the part about the doctor examining her and saying that. Yes, there are several definite ways to be able to tell if a woman has given birth. If he didn't see any indications, then she probably did not.

[MotherManderkin]

I can't be the only one who has heard of women claiming they were pregnant even tho its a lie and their bodies began to mimic the signs of pregnancy distended belly and morning sickness etc. I don't think she was pregnant. Or if she was she miscarried early on and made up the miscarriage story including the blood in the bathroom of her job. But like her sister said only she and God knows what really happened.

I have heard of that, I believe it is called pseudo pregnancy? I have also heard of women wanting to fake pregnancy so badly that they distort their image, sonogram pictures, tell lie after lie... and when they can't produce a baby they either deseperately try to steal one, or claim theirs has died. She may be the biggest most delusional and psychotic attention whore I've heard about in a long while, but the more I read, the more I am starting to be convinced that this was all a ruse for attention and sympathy.

[malq]

If that's true, then you just made the case that there was never a baby to begin with. The doctor that examined her testified that there wasn't indisputable proof that she had ever given birth. If the uterus and pelvic bones are forever changed after birth it should be pretty easy for them to say "yes, she definitely had a baby".

I don't believe she ever gave birth and if she ever was pregnant, I believe she miscarried during her early stages.

Oddly enough, I happen to be right next to a MD. I asked her, and she read Mothers post. She said she is correct. Forensically, that's how they tell if a skeleton has given birth FYI. I did not know that.

[MotherManderkin]

Oddly enough, I happen to be right next to a MD. I asked her, and she read Mothers post. She said she is correct. Forensically, that's how they tell if a skeleton has given birth FYI. I did not know that.

See, I retain at least some of what I learn in college... My professors would be so proud.

[Obsolete]

Oddly enough, I happen to be right next to a MD. I asked her, and she read Mothers post. She said she is correct. Forensically, that's how they tell if a skeleton has given birth FYI. I did not know that.

I wasn't disagreeing, I was proving a point...which I effectively proved. So HAH!

[malq]

I wasn't disagreeing, I was proving a point...which I effectively proved. So HAH!

I agree with you. I proved you were right. HAH!. Love and peace-Malq

[Obsolete]

I agree with you. I proved you were right. HAH!. Love and peace-Malq

Now show me your tits!

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Now show me your tits!

NO!
I have no desire to see malq's moobs.

[Obsolete]

NO!
I have no desire to see malq's moobs.

Then don't look, and stop trying to moob block

[malq]

Now show me your tits!

I have tried 3 times to show you just my nipples for a warmup. @dakota keeps blocking my post.
this is my last try