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Thread: David Hartley Killed On Falcon Lake

  1. #61
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    I get that but I have lived in LA all my life and been to Mexico fishing many times. When I read that they are displaying heads on poles in the middle of Tijuana town square.
    I keep my happy ass at home and fish in the Santa Monica bay. The boarders in Texas have had far more violence then our boarder here in California.
    Maybe it's just me but when I read these warnings coupled with the articles in the LA Times about the drug wars between the cartels I take that shit very seriously.
    Just saying.....
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    When I was in Tiauana in 88 it was a metropolis thriving with vendors and shops and 100k worth of peeps. Now they said it is a ghost town b-cause of the violence. It is a real shame, I enjoyed my time there and in San Diego.
    Last edited by CplPunishment; October 14th, 2010 at 11:24 AM. Reason: sp

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    There is no question that David Hartley went willingly to Falcon Lake. You can hear him in the dashcam video telling the cops that's where they are going. Border Patrol agents saw them in the area when they stopped for lunch at Subway. The Hartleys obviously (or obliviously) didn't seem to have concerns.

    Who the hell knows why they went to a known area of danger. My only thought on it is maybe they lived with the danger every day and going there was no more dangerous than any other thing they did on a daily basis.
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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by gee View Post
    I don't believe this. These drug cartels have never cared about backlash of killing innocent people, Americans, or anyone for that matter.
    Publicity.

    Anything that brings attention to them, their members, they will attack and kill.

    What makes you think they won't turn on their own members, especially one's who have goofed this big?
    "Mexican Americans don't like to just get into gang fights,
    they like flowers and music and white girls named Debbie too."

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by penelopejo View Post
    Publicity.

    Anything that brings attention to them, their members, they will attack and kill.

    What makes you think they won't turn on their own members, especially one's who have goofed this big?
    It's not that I don't think they will turn on their own members. I don't see this as being a big goof! They don't care about kidnapping Americans on a regular basis and the bad publicity that brings. Why would they give two shits about mistakenly killing this guy???

    http://articles.cnn.com/2010-05-07/t...z?_s=PM:TRAVEL This is as recent as May 2010

    Here is another article dated Oct 13,2010 for your reading pleasure
    Title: Beheadings, hangings plague Tijuana amid festival
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_drug_war_mexico

    Now this article is in reference to the type violence that is going on right now. I am not saying that this is what they are doing to Americans. Make no mistake though, if you find yourself in Tijuana at the wrong place and time You too could be hanging from a bridge with out your head attached (in reference to above beheading article)
    If I swallow anything evil, put your finger down my throat...

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by gee View Post
    It's not that I don't think they will turn on their own members. I don't see this as being a big goof! They don't care about kidnapping Americans on a regular basis and the bad publicity that brings. Why would they give two shits about mistakenly killing this guy???

    http://articles.cnn.com/2010-05-07/t...z?_s=PM:TRAVEL This is as recent as May 2010

    Here is another article dated Oct 13,2010 for your reading pleasure
    Title: Beheadings, hangings plague Tijuana amid festival
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/lt_drug_war_mexico

    Now this article is in reference to the type violence that is going on right now. I am not saying that this is what they are doing to Americans. Make no mistake though, if you find yourself in Tijuana at the wrong place and time You too could be hanging from a bridge with out your head attached (in reference to above beheading article)


    Because we've turned it into something big over here. If it's big here, it's big there.

    Those stories I have never heard of as I've heard of this one. This one is too big to turn their heads on. I imagine he's turning them into an example saying,"Watch watch what the fuck you do or I will kill you."

    I'm not saying he does care about the guy being shot, I'm saying he cares that it's bring too much attention to his cartel. That his people will be spotted easily and that makes them vulnerable to other cartels out there.
    "Mexican Americans don't like to just get into gang fights,
    they like flowers and music and white girls named Debbie too."

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    I'm just sitting here reading and I do almost all of those things on the lying list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gee View Post
    It's not that I don't think they will turn on their own members. I don't see this as being a big goof! They don't care about kidnapping Americans on a regular basis and the bad publicity that brings. Why would they give two shits about mistakenly killing this guy???
    They didn't and don't care about mistakenly killing the guy. BUT once the shit hit the fan and it became a big media/international incident, that changed things. The unwanted attention (far greater than usual) is what is pissing the boss off. If everyone had just said "Tsk! Tsk! Another drug cartel murder" then things would have been fine for them.

    In any business, a "mistake" that doesn't cause problems is easily overlooked. Cause a problem and heads will roll. In this case, literally.

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    More than two months after the alleged murder of an American jet skier on Falcon Lake, new clues began to emerge Thursday. Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez Jr. said he was looking for two men who opened fire on David and Tiffany Hartley on September 30.
    [...]

    Gonzalez told CHANNEL 5 NEWS he got his information from confidential informants who told him David's body and jet ski were destroyed and will never be found. When asked about the lab results on Tiffany's blood-stained life vest, Gonzalez replied, "It was human blood. It did belong to David Hartley."

    Gonzalez also said at least four sources had confirmed Tiffany Hartley's account of what happened. Sheriff Gonzalez said this now makes four suspects in the Falcon Lake murder case.
    [...]
    http://www.krgv.com/news/local/story...16sKuGTlw.cspx
    Gonzalez, citing confidential informants, also said that suspected Zeta drug cartel members on board the three speed boats were also ordered to kill Tiffany Hartley, who managed to escape.

    "Information has been revealed that authorized her killing as well, but she was able to escape," Gonzalez said. "They were targeted because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time."

    Gonzalez also said that he believes at least six drug cartel members – possibly eight – were on the lake when the shooting occurred.
    [...]

    Gonzalez expressed frustration with Mexican law enforcement, saying sometimes "they just won’t call back," but said he’s optimistic the killers will eventually be caught and brought to justice.

    "Eventually something’s going to happen,” he said, “Information is constantly flowing.”
    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/12/15...h-border-lake/
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  10. #70
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    Well LE believe her
    Two suspects identified in Mexico lake killing
    (CNN) -- Two additional suspects have surfaced in the fatal shooting of an American man on a lake that straddles the United States and Mexico last September, Zapata County Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez told CNN.
    [...]
    Gonzalez said officials would not release the new suspects' names.

    "We're just waiting for more information. We understand that they were there, they participated in the shooting. They were given the orders to go kill (Tiffany) also," the sheriff said.

    The new information, based on cooperation from informants, came to light last month, but is just now being released publicly.

    Hartley's account of what happened has never changed. She and her husband were returning from touring a well known local landmark, the previously submerged town of Old Guerrero on the Mexican side of the border. They were about a mile from the town's well-known church when three boats approached. The men in the boats had guns and began to fire. David Hartley, his wife said, was shot in the head.

    In the months since the attack, many doubts have been raised by law enforcement sources suggesting Tiffany Hartley's version of events does not ring true. Rumors persist that somehow, in some way, the Hartleys themselves were involved.

    Gonzalez, who says he always believed Tiffany Hartley, said that the new information on the suspects corroborate her story.

    The suspects are known Mexican drug traffickers and "do come over to Zapata County (Texas) every once in awhile. We're waiting to try and grab them when they're here," he said.

    A factor hindering the investigation is that the shooting took place in Mexico. Mexican authorities have not publicly provided any new leads since the investigator on the case was found dead.

    The new revelations bring the total number of suspects in the case to four, Gonzalez said.
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/02/28/...ing/index.html

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    A 'stupid' mistake or murder?

    CNN) -- It was planned as a day of recreation for the young couple but turned into tragedy. A 30-year-old man dead, his body lost -- possibly forever.

    As his grieving widow waits for answers, suspicion is cast on her. Then an investigator is murdered as he looks into the crime.

    Today, nearly six months later, some of the puzzle pieces are falling into place regarding what happened to Americans David and Tiffany Hartley that September day on Falcon Lake, which straddles the U.S.-Mexico border.

    Even with the new information, however, authorities caution that the full picture of what happened that day, leading to David Hartley's death, may never be known.

    "It didn't happen in the United States," said Zapata County, Texas, Sheriff Sigifredo Gonzalez.

    And Mexican authorities, he told CNN, have "somewhat of a zero solvency rate, and a zero conviction rate."

    "So unfortunately, this case may remain open forever, even though the information and the evidence may be there," according to Gonzalez.

    A suspicious story


    Tiffany Hartley has told police that she and her husband were on Sea-Doo personal watercraft on the lake on September 30, to visit a half-submerged church, when they were ambushed by assailants who shot David Hartley in the head.

    She said she was unable to haul his body onto her watercraft before being forced to flee.

    Early on, authorities surmised the couple had stumbled into a drug transaction, as the area is widely known as a Mexican drug cartel's stomping ground.

    Tiffany Hartley's story was greeted with skepticism by some who believed that something more sinister was at work.

    But Gonzalez's support of her never wavered.

    "I still believe Tiffany," he said.

    Gonzalez says what she told him in interviews after the shooting called to mind two similar incidents in April and May of last year -- incidents she had no way of knowing about.

    Before David Hartley's killing, there were four reports of American fishermen running into Mexican pirates on Falcon Lake, authorities said. In each case, the fishermen were warned to stay off the Mexican side of the lake and sent on their way.

    "Everything she's telling me has happened before in the other events, the other cases," Gonzalez said.

    Doubts about Tiffany Hartley's story were somewhat lifted after the gruesome murder of Rolando Armando Flores Villegas, who was leading the Mexican investigation into her husband's death. His head was delivered in a suitcase to a Mexican military post shortly after David Hartley's death.

    Gonzalez said he doesn't believe that the Hartleys were involved with drugs or that Tiffany Hartley was somehow involved in her husband's death to collect insurance money -- some of the theories that have been bandied about by those who doubt her story.

    "There is no evidence to indicate any of that," he said.

    Wrong place, wrong time

    The new information, he said, seems to support investigators' theory that drug cartel members killed Hartley because the couple was seen as a threat.

    Hartley could merely have fallen victim to an unlucky shot from assailants who intended to disable, not kill, according to Gonzalez and another expert.

    "They opened up with automatic weapons or semiautomatic weapons and just started throwing rounds in the direction of the Hartleys," said Fred Burton, vice president of the global intelligence agency Stratfor.

    "[By] sheer volume ... [the gunmen] could get lucky and hit your target."

    A few informants have come forward in the case, Gonzalez said, although obviously, they fear for their safety.

    One says he was told what transpired by those involved in the shooting. Another claimed they were on the water at the time the shooting occurred, and heard what they described as a "war zone" -- even from a couple of miles away.

    The couple's decision use their personal watercraft on the lake where there had been several attacks on fishermen was "stupid," according to local fishing guide and resort owner "Speedy" Collett.

    Collett says fishermen are completely safe on Falcon Lake as long as they follow the unwritten rules. Nevertheless, he says business has been down since Hartley's killing in September -- something Gonzalez echoed.

    Tiffany Hartley admits she knew "there were attacks" on the lake, but she says "we didn't know where they were exactly."

    "We hadn't heard anything for a while, and we were just there in August and enjoyed three, four hours that day on the [lake]."

    Investigators believe there were seven gunmen on three boats, according to Gonzalez, who said it's his understanding that the cartel was "getting ready to cross a drug load" and saw the Hartleys as a threat.

    The instruction was given to "go ahead and shoot at them," he said.

    Parts of Falcon Lake are under direct control of the Zetas drug cartel, Burton said. The area is notorious for the moving or storage of thousands of pounds of marijuana, Gonzalez said.

    "This was a very strong smuggling corridor for them," Gonzalez said. "Therefore, anybody that's an outsider that goes into that area is viewed as either working for another cartel or a possible informant for a government agency."

    The Zetas police the area, Burton said, and are responsible for surveillance. Tiffany Hartley last year recounted for CNN seeing her husband shot, and the gunmen returning as she struggled to save him.

    She said she was holding her husband by his life vest with one hand and her Sea-Doo with the other when she found herself staring down a gun barrel. She said she looked the two men in the eye and pleaded with them not to shoot her.

    After a whispered conversation in Spanish, the two left, she said, and she took off on her Sea-Doo.

    More shots rang out, she said, but she didn't look back.

    New details emerge

    Gonzalez said the first informant, who heard about the shooting from those involved, also said that Tiffany Hartley was briefly held at gunpoint.

    The gunmen did fire at her as she fled, the informant said, but were not able to hit her because "she kept zigzagging all over the place."

    Burton believes in a slightly different version of events, speculating there was a moment where the people involved realized they had made a mistake, and let Tiffany Hartley go after realizing she was not a threat.

    "From all the individuals that I've spoken to that are very close to the investigation, not only inside the United States but in Mexico, they pinpoint nothing but a story of just a couple being in the wrong place at the wrong time," Burton said.

    As for David Hartley's body, Gonzalez and Burton agree it will probably never be found.

    Gonzalez said informants have told him how it was disposed of, but would not elaborate because he lacks concrete information.

    The Sea-Doo, he said, was also destroyed.

    "That body is evidence that they really don't want to come to light," Burton said.

    Mexican authorities have identified two suspects in the case, and the U.S. has identified two more, Gonzalez said, leaving three others unidentified.

    The sheriff previously has said that at least some suspects may be dead. Burton believes they were killed by the Zetas.

    "The killers were killed by the organization because, remember, this is bad for business," Burton said.

    From all the individuals that I've spoken to [it's] a story of just a couple being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

    "There's so many homicides inside of Mexico that are unsolved that this is just another one," he said. "... I think politically, the Mexican government looks at this kind of case and says, 'We have thousands of unsolved homicides. Why is this one so important?' "
    [..]
    Some may find that shocking, he said, but "I think most people fail to recognize the scope of violence that we have seen over the past 18 to 24 months around the border."

    "I think Mrs. Hartley is in a very difficult situation in that the likelihood of the Mexican government ever successfully resolving this case to where there's an arrest or prosecution of the people involved is highly remote," Burton said.

    "If the Zetas have killed the people that are responsible for the crime, that's all the justice Mrs. Hartley could probably expect at this point in time."

    Tiffany Hartley, meanwhile, said she is now thinking of starting a nonprofit organization "to fight for America and our borders."

    She believes her husband was a victim "of terrorism, of politics and the way of life in Mexico," adding that she believes too much money flows back and forth across the border.

    And she believes her husband's body, one day, will come home.

    "God's word says, 'Whatever has been stolen from you will be given back to you a hundredfold,' " she said. "And I believe, a hundredfold, I will get everything that's been stolen from me. And that's my husband."
    http://www.cnn.com/2011/CRIME/03/09/...ake/index.html

    For every murdered child
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    U.S. man fishing in Mexico says he escaped gunfire on Falcon Lake

    FALCON LAKE - The Sheriff of Zapata County is reminding people not to venture into Mexico at Falcon Lake after a U.S. man fishing in Mexican waters reported someone fired at his boat.

    “He experienced a bullet hole through his windshield. No one was physically hurt,” said Zapata County Sheriff Siegfried “Sigi” Gonzalez.
    Authorities in Texas issued a warning about pirates in May of 2010.
    “I continue to strongly urge that U. S. fishermen remain on the U. S. side of Falcon Lake,” said Gonzalez in an email response to a question about security.

    Falcon Lake is world renowned for its bass fishing. It became the scene of a high-profile murder investigation last September after Tiffany Hartley reported gunmen shot her husband while the pair was jet skiing in Mexico.

    Recently, KHOU 11 accompanied the border patrol marine unit on tour of the watery international boundary separating the U.S. and Mexico.

    “It’s 44,000 acres of lake," said Omar Garcia, the border patrol supervisor of the marine unit. "And 65 percent of it is in Mexico.”

    Fishermen searching for the best bass don’t have to stay in U.S. waters.

    “The rule of thumb is, as long as they don’t touch land or make contact with another vessel on the Mexican side, they can come back and forth without having to go through an inspection at a port of entry,” said Ramiro Cerillo, US border patrol supervisor in Zapata County.

    While on patrol we were required to wear life preservers and body armor just like the agents. The boat launched from the same dock used by David and Tiffany Hartley when they went jet skiing last September.

    “Anything East of the markers is US, anything west is Mexico.” said agent Garcia as he steered the boat toward a large, metal marker protruding from the Lake.

    The Hartley's were six miles inside Mexican waters. Tiffany Hartley told investigators the couple was taking photos of a partially submerged church in Guerrero Viejo, a flooded ghost town.

    The agents who patrol the lake said it’s not common to see jet skis that far away from the shore.

    “We haven’t seen a lot of them. It’s very rare that we see them," said Cerillo. "If we do see them, it’s in the coves.”

    In May of last year, the Texas Department of Public Safety issued a warning about pirates on Falcon Lake in an area controlled by the Zetas cartel. Several fishermen had reported they’d been robbed while in Mexican waters.

    The area is a smuggling route for drug traffickers.

    ”They’ll try to blend in with fishing boats and bring their contraband in the boats themselves," said Clara Torres, Assistant Patrol Chief for the Laredo Sector, which includes Falcon Lake.

    “Once they get in that brush, it’s almost impossible to see them," said Garcia, as he steered the boat toward a cove.

    The coves are good fishing spots, but also great hiding places for smugglers or pirates.

    When Tiffany Hartley reported gunmen shot her husband in the head, it stunned locals living near the lake, according to Karran Westerman, who publishes the tiny Zapata County Times.

    “At first there was disbelief,” Westerman said.

    But nearly a year later, disbelief has been replaced by doubt.

    “I think there are still a lot of questions, a lot of doubt," Westerman said. "Exactly what happened? Were the Zetas really involved?”

    The Hartley murder investigation remains open on both sides of the border. Authorities have not recovered David Hartley’s body or jet ski.

    The lead investigator in Mexico was murdered and decapitated just after the search for evidence began.

    Tiffany Hartley moved back to Colorado, where she continues to pressure authorities to resume the search for her husband’s body.

    Despite the high profile case, the bass still lure plenty of fishermen and women to Falcon Lake. Kristy Evans was fishing on the lake's shore.

    “It’s a great sport," Evans said. "You just want to keep it somewhere safe.”

    Her fishing companion said most people avoid Mexican waters altogether.

    “I won’t risk it,” Jose Gomez said.

    Tiffany Hartley told KHOU by phone she and her husband were not aware of the warning at Falcon Lake when they ventured into Mexico.


    [...]
    http://www.kens5.com/news/US-man-fis...128491563.html
    Last edited by Whisper; August 27th, 2011 at 10:42 PM.

    For every murdered child
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    For any quirk of fate we may arrange.
    We are not "meek" or "mild";
    Don't turn your back when twilight dims the sky -
    We'll haunt the perpetrators till they Die
    "Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for that animal their world is changed forever!" - Unknown

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  16. #73
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    I am not surprised that this case is still open. I do not believe this will ever get resolved.
    If I swallow anything evil, put your finger down my throat...

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    Quote Originally Posted by gee View Post
    I am not surprised that this case is still open. I do not believe this will ever get resolved.
    I really dont think the wife had anything to do with it,they (and I hate to say this) were stupid and didnt listen to what they were told about staying away from that area and decided to "sight see"
    Their own stupidity got him killed and her almost killed,anyone that goes in that area knowing the history(especially lately) is an idiot

    For every murdered child
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    For any quirk of fate we may arrange.
    We are not "meek" or "mild";
    Don't turn your back when twilight dims the sky -
    We'll haunt the perpetrators till they Die
    "Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for that animal their world is changed forever!" - Unknown

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    Quote Originally Posted by whisperswing View Post
    I really dont think the wife had anything to do with it,they (and I hate to say this) were stupid and didnt listen to what they were told about staying away from that area and decided to "sight see"
    Their own stupidity got him killed and her almost killed,anyone that goes in that area knowing the history(especially lately) is an idiot
    I agree I believe the wife was telling the truth. I just don't think this will ever be solved.
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    @gee no it wont because the couple they did arrest said his body and the jet ski have both been destroyed and no one would ever find either

    For every murdered child
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    We are not "meek" or "mild";
    Don't turn your back when twilight dims the sky -
    We'll haunt the perpetrators till they Die
    "Rescuing one animal may not change the world, but for that animal their world is changed forever!" - Unknown

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    Mexican marines over the weekend arrested a man they say masterminded some of the most horrific crimes in northern Mexico, including the killing of U.S. tourist David Michael Hartley two years ago and mass slaughters in a border state.

    The Marines announced that Saturday they arrested Alfonso Martinez Escobedo, 31, known as “La Ardilla,” Spanish for “the squirrel,” in the border city of Nuevo Laredo.

    Mexican officials said Martinez is a high-ranking Zeta who oversaw the gang's criminal activity in the states of Tamaulipas, Nuevo Leon and Coahuila, all of which border Mexico.

    They also accused him in the killing of Hartley; the summer 2010 slaughter of 72 Central American migrants in northern Mexico; another 200 slayings near the town of San Fernando in Tamaulipas and the killing of a police commander who was investigating Hartley's death.

    Hartley's wife, Tiffany, wasn't immediately available for comment Monday.

    Her mother, Cynthia Young, said the family was still learning the details of the arrest and would likely make public comment at a news conference Tuesday or Wednesday.
    [...]

    In a written statement, officials also alleged Martinez was behind massive prison breaks in the border cities of Nuevo Laredo and Piedras Negras and was a point man on the Zetas war against their former masters in the Gulf Cartel.
    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/loc...on-3928519.php
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    Thank you for the update. Never read about this story before. Am I the only one......

    The shooting renewed warnings of pirates on Falcon Lake, which is about 60 miles down the border from Laredo and is popular with water skiers and bass fishing.
    ....who wonders what the bass were fishing for?
    If you're going through Hell, keep going...... ~ Winston Churchill

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    Tiffany Hartley stood before the TV cameras and said, with steel in her voice, that she knew as much as the reporters standing on her parent’s driveway about a suspected Mexican cartel leader who may have been involved with the order for gunmen to cut down her husband while they jet-skied on a lake along the U.S.-Mexico border.

    She hoped to hear more, she said, but as of Monday afternoon, inquires to the FBI, State Department and even President Barack Obama’s administration were left unreturned.

    She did know one thing that perhaps no one but her family knew. She could not have done this a year ago.

    The two-year anniversary of David Hartley’s death passed the last week of September, and she’s in a much better place. She still has her moments. She had one Monday morning, in fact, at a Greeley flower shop where she works after a friend in Texas texted her about the arrest of Salvador Alfonso Martinez Escobedo and his possible connection to David’s murder and her own attempted murder.

    She was shocked. She hadn’t heard anything from the State Department, despite her weekly emails to officials there, or anyone else for 10 months, since Mexican authorities found some remains in Falcon Lake that could have been David’s (as it turns out, it was not his body).

    “Peace? Joy? Happiness? No,” Hartley said and smiled. “I wasn’t really expecting to hear that this morning.”

    She doesn’t know whether Martinez will be brought to trial for her husband’s murder or any of the other crimes where he remains a suspect, including the slaughter of 72 migrants in the northern state of Tamaulipas in 2010.

    “It’s hard to have that confidence,” she sad. “We’re hopeful. We always have hope. I always have to have my hope.”
    [...]

    She hasn’t moved on. It’s not that simple. She’s still sad. She still lives on her parents’ farm. But she looks to the future. Even a conviction for David’s murder would not bring her the closure she needs, she said. She wants his body, as she has all along.

    But there is hope. There always is. After all, David’s murder was mentioned among the Martinez’s many suspected crimes.

    “There is comfort in that,” she said. “I know the Mexican government has its hands full with him. But (David) will not be forgotten.”
    http://www.greeleytribune.com/news/c...ey-2010-mexico
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