Murderabilia - A business we should get into?

[Athena]

...Just kidding. Well, maybe.



To those of us with a passion for the macabre, it only makes sense that such a trade would exist - Letters, drawings and other personal items, right down to hair or nail clippings, otherwise known as "Murderabilia", for sale on the internet. These items are sent by prisoners, their families and sometimes, even their attorneys, to online auction houses. Just like eBay, you can hop online and bid for these bizarre items. Heck, if you've got a spare $450.00 lying around, you, too, can purchase a sketch of Minnie, Mickey and Donald Duck drawn by John Wayne Gacy at MurderAuction.com.

Unfortunately, Tod Bohannon, owner of MurderAuction.com, is worried that he might be shut down by a bill introduced last may by Republican Senator John Cornyn.

5/24/2007--Introduced.

Stop the Sale of Murderabilia to Protect the Dignity of Crime Victims Act of 2007 - Amends the federal criminal code to:
(1) restrict the items that a federal prisoner may place in the mail or for delivery; and
(2) provide for civil and criminal forfeiture of real or personal property used to commit a crime or obtained as a result of such crime.

Provides civil remedies, including injunctions, damages, and attorney fees, for persons aggrieved by federal prisoners using the mail in violation of this Act.

The bill has received bipartisan support from U.S. Representatives Dave Reichert (R-WA) and Brad Ellsworth (D-IN) and, from what I can tell, has yet to be voted on.

Sen. Cornyn has more friends, though. Namely, Andy Kahan, director of the Houston-based Mayor's Crime Victims Office. Kahan has effectively lobbied 5 states - Texas, California, New Jersey, Michigan and Utah - to ban the sale of "grotesque" items of this nature. But that's not all! Kahan will actually go to auction sites and buy up these items, just to take them out of circulation. He also threatened MurderAuction's U.S. hosts with litigation. As a result, Bohannon now routes his site through a U.K. server.

There are some more general concerns about this legislation, however, from people outside ther murderabilia business. Mainly, it threatens prison art, something widely used to help rehabilitate less violent criminals, or a peaceful medium more talented criminals use to fund their legal defense. Opponents of the legislation suggest that, while the law is intended to prevent the sale of items made popular by the crimes committed by the seller, it will effect prisoners selling items based on the merit of the art itself, rather than the crimes they have committed.

During my research of the subject, it seems that murderabilia is offered by a number of "true crime" sites. I took a cruise around to see what I could pick up. Some interesting stuff out there, if I was willing to put out the dough. I also found this interesting little fictional piece about a murderabilia collector named Jude.

I might be one sick puppy, because, suddenly, I'm really interested. I could totally dedicate a room in my home to this stuff. Well, maybe not a whole room, but a display case...


(Lizzie Borden murderabilia)

[KillBill20]

I can honestly say I have a really strong urge to buy this:

http://www.murderauction.com/auction...tion_id=111234

I've always been really interested in the Defeo Murders. Those are the real horror of the Amityville House. I've never believed that George and Kathy Lutz's house was haunted, either by the Defeo's... or ghosts, or anything more than a family who got spooked by living in a house where people were murdered.

How come we don't have a gigantic twenty page form going on about the Amityville Murders? I thought this was a true crime website...

~Kyle

[Athena]

Christ! Thanks, Kyle!

I couldn't believe it...A true crime website, full of motherfuckers I know are sick...Yet no one is interested in murderabilia? I suppose you and I are simply sicker than most.

The Amityville murders, huh? Tag, you're it. ;)

[Jaded]

I've been waiting for the budget to allow the purchase of something off of that website. I've been browsing there for quite some time now. I'm thinking something from Gacy is going to be my first purchase...unless I can come across something really interesting from Richard Ramirez.

[lisaznola]

French murderer, cannibal, grave robber and probable serial killer, has a site. He sells his art and I think he is personally involved with the other site that sells works from other serial killers and from artists that use serial killers, violent crime as 'inspiration' and subject.
Nico isn't locked up though.

info on nico here

the 'store'

[CPL CHUD]

I'm not particularly interested in murder, just the fictional romantization of it. Weird huh.

[impqueen]

How come we don't have a gigantic twenty page form going on about the Amityville Murders? I thought this was a true crime website...

~Kyle

'Cause you haven't made one yet. I've always found that crime fascinating, although like you I don't think the house is haunted.

Get on it, boyo. :D

[impqueen]

I actually find murderabilia very interesting. Then again, I also used to read true crime for fun. Now that I'm writing it, I get most of my true crime jones taken care of during research.

I think if the profits are going to the victims, or even to some random person who happened onto the artifacts, as it were, i'd be cool with purchase. On the other hand, some vibes i would not want in my house. Lizzie Borden, hail yeah. Jet Duncan, not so much.

[Raq me darkly]

The local news last night had a segment on it. This is a link to the video of the report.

Murderabilia: Online Sites Where Crime Pays
Jamie Smith Reporting

PHILADELPHIA (CBS 3) ― America has long had a fascination with serial killers. From movies to TV shows, the subject has always been big business. But one source of fascination may just cross the line.

CBS 3's Jamie Smith reveals the bizarre business of "murderabilia".

Online sites where crime pays.

The sites are full of a horrifying inventory of criminal minds where the personal items of killers are sold to the highest bidder.

Like a lock of Charles Manson's hair going for around $800, complete with an autographed certificate of authenticity.

Or a handwritten letter from John Couey, who was convicted of killing 9-year-old Jessica Lundsford.

There are sweat socks worn by Hadden Clark, a Washington D.C. area cross-dressing killer from the 90's.

A hand-tracing by murderer Gary Heidnik who held six women captive. Police found them chained and naked in the basement of his Philadelphia home.

The items all found on internet sites that specialize in convicts' belongings, right down to fingernail clippings and used dental floss.

"I think it's despicable. It's troubling there's a market for this stuff," said Bruce Castor, the former Montgomery County district attorney who spent a career bringing killers to justice.

Murderers like serial killer John Eichinger who is awaiting execution for slashing to death three women and a little girl.

Castor described him by saying, "He's an atrocious man."

We showed Castor Eichinger's hand-written envelopes for sale on line.

"Really sick stuff," responded Castor.

The mastermind behind one of these sites is Tod Bohannon. He collects $10 registration fees from these online shoppers.

"Arthur Shawcross did this. He's the Genesee River killer from New York. He killed about 12 prostitutes," said Bohannon displaying the murderer's artwork.

Bohannon has filled his Georgia home with what he calls serial killer artifacts. He was a young teen when his fascination with crime items began.

"When I was 13, I watched Helter Skelter. Got me interested in Charlie Manson," said Bohannon.

Bohannon says he has written to hundreds of killers in prison.

Murderers like Jeffrey Dahmer, Night Stalker Richard Rameriz and Ted Bundy.

In return he has received letters, autographs and even items like Hadden Clark's fingernail clippings. Items that often wind up for sale online.

Bohannan considers his collection part of history.

"It's not much different to me than collecting comic books or World War II memorabilia or klan memorabilia," he said.

"It's hard to believe there's this subculture propagating crimes these people did," says Castor who is now Montgomery County Commissioner.

There are laws restricting inmates from making huge profits as a result of their crimes.

But in most of these cases, it's not the criminal who is making the money. It's the Web site dealers.

Five states ban the sale of "murderabilia".

New Jersey is one of those states. Pennsylvania is not.

Congress has introduced a bill that would make it a felony for inmates to mail items for interstate commerce, but that would not affect those who buy and sell.

(© MMVIII, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved.)

[Morbid]

I am always conflicted with this shit. I mean, it almost seems as if it is a glorification of what these people did.

"Look! It's the actual log Bundy used to smash some girls head in with!"

Yeah, ok.

Then, I have an issue with people profiting off of the items and not the victims. While I know that puts me in a very gray area, as we sort of profit of of the things we post. But I do feel there is a difference as what we do is not primarily about money (if it were, we really, really suck at it).

I dunno. Maybe it is like owning a piece of history or something. Like a piece of the Titanic, or a gun owned by Billy the Kid...but it's just that some of the people who get into this shit remind me of the people who glorify serial killers, get hard-ons watching people die on Liveleak.com or think the Columbine shooters where martyrs.

I'm fascinated by crime and criminals, but not to the point that I would actually want to own any of their property.

[Athena]

I am always conflicted with this shit. I mean, it almost seems as if it is a glorification of what these people did.

"Look! It's the actual log Bundy used to smash some girls head in with!"

Yeah, ok.

Then, I have an issue with people profiting off of the items and not the victims. While I know that puts me in a very gray area, as we sort of profit of of the things we post. But I do feel there is a difference as what we do is not primarily about money (if it were, we really, really suck at it).

I dunno. Maybe it is like owning a piece of history or something. Like a piece of the Titanic, or a gun owned by Billy the Kid...but it's just that some of the people who get into this shit remind me of the people who glorify serial killers, get hard-ons watching people die on Liveleak.com or think the Columbine shooters where martyrs.

I'm fascinated by crime and criminals, but not to the point that I would actually want to own any of their property.

Those are all very valid points. I'd probably feel better about purchasing these items if the proceeds went to the victims' families, or a victims' advocate fund, or something.

I do think, for most people into this sort of thing, it's more like owning a piece of history than it is glorifying the actions of heinous criminals. Not to say there isn't a certain portion that do glorify...I mean, if people will exhalt the Columbine kids, they'll exhalt anybody. But, generally, I think it's just something to show your friends so that they can say "weird!". Like my Freddy glove. I don't own it because I wish I was Freddy Krueger or even because I support the type of suffering that character inflicted. I own it because I think it's cool and so do other people. I know, one is fictitious and the other is not, but I believe the same logic applies to both.

[Morbid]

I understand movie props and such. Hell, if I was a bit richer than I already am, I would own TONS of shit from movies. Real life stuff from killers? Eh...not so much. I think owning shit like that is only cool to the person who actively went out and bought it. I mean, take the log example. Let's say it was for sale, complete with blood and mucous from the victims, for a mere 5.000 dollars. I buy it, have it enclosed in bullet proof glass with fancy lighting that really highlights the hair left embedded in it, and put it on a pedestal in the center of my living room.

Friends come over and I proudly point out this macabre, weird item I bought and displayed. I explain it's history to the viewers who look at it with obvious interest. I sit back proudly at my new item and feel a bit of satisfaction that other people are interested in it. We then go back to eating dinner and what-not, get a little drunk, play some dumbass board game and then everyone goes home. I go to bed thinking just how neat my hairy, bloody log is...when in actuality, everyone else is in their cars on their way home turning to their spouse and asking, "Why in the hell would anyone buy a fucking log that was used to beat someone to death???"

So, in other words, no thanks. I'll stick with the fake machete used in the fake killing in the fake Friday the 13th Part 2, you guys can keep the bloody log used to murder someone. :)

[Athena]

Well, I won't even shell out $5k for a car, much less a log, but...

Do you have any idea how much business museums involving murderabilia get? Or how many drive-bys notorious murder scenes get? I think you underestimate the general populace's attraction to the macabre.

...and this, coming from a guy whose main hobby focuses around people's attraction to the depraved. :p

[Rotten Apple]

I think murderabilia is crap. I won't pay for a bloody log and I wouldn't pay for artwork done by a serial killer. Most of that stuff is not true art anyway. An artist would be recognized on the merits of their work alone, not their names.

My interest in serial killers and murders and criminals is mostly what makes them do what they do. the WHY of it all.

So um, notes from their psychiatrists, family backgrounds and medical records, yeah, I would pay for those.

[Morbid]

Do you have any idea how much business museums involving murderabilia get? Or how many drive-bys notorious murder scenes get? I think you underestimate the general populace's attraction to the macabre.

...and this, coming from a guy whose main hobby focuses around people's attraction to the depraved. :p

There are also fascinating museums on torture devices that is quite interesting, but I have no desire to own any of them, no matter how cool some of them look. :)

I underestimate nothing in this regard and will even state that I am more knowledgeable in it than yourself. I am fully aware of how much money this crap fetches....and make no mistake, it really is all crap. But again, there is difference between being interested in it than buying and owning it. To me, anyway. I rubberneck. I don't get out of the car and snag a piece of bloody clothing.

My personal attraction to crime has nothing to do with depravity. I find the person who is able to kill his entire family just as interesting, on a psychological level, as I do the Jessica Vasquez's. Lastly, this site was not put in place to revel in the actions we report as much as it was to wake people up and quit being apathetic to the crimes and victims and try to put faces on both of them as well as to let people vent uncensored. What other reasons people continue to come here is their business.

It's just a personal feeling of mine, that the selling and buying of this shit, and the crap produced by these "serialebrities" is just another slap in the face to the families and friends of the victims. That is also why this site will never advertise, or be a part of, any type of murderabilia.

It may not be completely logical, but hey, that's just the way I feel about it.

[celtic friend]

Curious, what do you all think about O.J.'s book, "If I Did It"?
Do you agree with it being released? I know the family sued and took it over so he could not make money but still should he have been allowed to profit? The Goldman/Browns?

[Athena]

There are also fascinating museums on torture devices that is quite interesting, but I have no desire to own any of them, no matter how cool some of them look. :)

I underestimate nothing in this regard and will even state that I am more knowledgeable in it than yourself. I am fully aware of how much money this crap fetches....and make no mistake, it really is all crap. But again, there is difference between being interested in it than buying and owning it. To me, anyway. I rubberneck. I don't get out of the car and snag a piece of bloody clothing.

My personal attraction to crime has nothing to do with depravity. I find the person who is able to kill his entire family just as interesting, on a psychological level, as I do the Jessica Vasquez's. Lastly, this site was not put in place to revel in the actions we report as much as it was to wake people up and quit being apathetic to the crimes and victims and try to put faces on both of them as well as to let people vent uncensored. What other reasons people continue to come here is their business.

It's just a personal feeling of mine, that the selling and buying of this shit, and the crap produced by these "serialebrities" is just another slap in the face to the families and friends of the victims. That is also why this site will never advertise, or be a part of, any type of murderabilia.

It may not be completely logical, but hey, that's just the way I feel about it.

I wasn't seriously suggesting that this site go into the murderabilia business. It was just a title to snag interest. Hell, it got the elusive Morbid posting in Three Things, didn't it? ;)

You assert that friends of a person exhibiting murderabilia would have friend who wonder, "Why in the hell would anyone buy a fucking log that was used to beat someone to death???" I disagree. I happen to know that there are a lot of people in the world who don't understand why anyone would own horror movie props. I've met these people, in fact. These people don't come to my house, though. The people who come to my house have similar interests and, although none of them would collect movie props like mine, they all love to look at my stuff and they can certainly understand why I own it. I've got no reason to believe that murderabilia would be any different.

To each, his own, I suppose. :)

"My personal attraction to crime has nothing to do with depravity. I find the person who is able to kill his entire family just as interesting, on a psychological level, as I do the Jessica Vasquezs."

I get it. You don't wonder what makes these people tick, you just want to get their faces out there so they can receive the appropriate level of shame. That's noble. It's also pretty exceptional. True crime has the market it does because a whole lot of us do wonder what makes these people tick. Our inability to account for depravity drives our fascination with it.

[Athena]

Curious, what do you all think about O.J.'s book, "If I Did It"?
Do you agree with it being released? I know the family sued and took it over so he could not make money but still should he have been allowed to profit? The Goldman/Browns?

The family won the civil case, which has a lesser burden of proof. It only makes sense that they would get any profit from the book, as well.

As for whether or not a criminal should be able to profit off his crime in general, I'm not sure how I feel. I'm morally opposed, but I'm morally opposed to abortion, too, yet would like it to remain legal.

[Raq me darkly]

While we are on this topic (and I believe it is a cousin to Murderabilia), how about Serial Killer Trading cards?;)

[Athena]

I'd totally buy some of those. In fact, I think I might. Does that make me a bad person? :p

[impqueen]

"My personal attraction to crime has nothing to do with depravity. I find the person who is able to kill his entire family just as interesting, on a psychological level, as I do the Jessica Vasquezs."

I get it. You don't wonder what makes these people tick, you just want to get their faces out there so they can receive the appropriate level of shame. That's noble. It's also pretty exceptional. True crime has the market it does because a whole lot of us do wonder what makes these people tick. Our inability to account for depravity drives our fascination with it.

Far be it from me to say what Morbid thinks, but I didn't read his statement (in italics) that way.

I read it as M. saying that he finds the psychology behind all crime interesting, not just murder.

[Athena]

Far be it from me to say what Morbid thinks, but I didn't read his statement (in italics) that way.

I read it as M. saying that he finds the psychology behind all crime interesting, not just murder.

See, I thought that too, initially. But, if that's what he meant, he'd be contradicting himself in saying his interest has nothing to do with depravity, seeing as all violent or reckless crime is the direct result of depravity. Both the family killer's actions and Vasquez's actions were the result of depravity.

Having an interest in the psychology has everything to do with depravity, and our struggle to understand its origins.

[Morbid]

Far be it from me to say what Morbid thinks, but I didn't read his statement (in italics) that way.

I read it as M. saying that he finds the psychology behind all crime interesting, not just murder.

See, I thought that too, initially. But, if that's what he meant, he'd be contradicting himself in saying his interest has nothing to do with depravity, seeing as all violent or reckless crime is the direct result of depravity. Both the family killer's actions and Vasquez's actions were the result of depravity.

Having an interest in the psychology has everything to do with depravity, and our struggle to understand its origins.

You had it right Imp, because not all criminals, or the crimes they commit, are a form of, or are born out of, depravity. Some crimes are necessity, some are from belief, whether it be religious or personal, and others are just plane ignorance and stupidity.

Also, I don't remember ever saying I was talking about just violent or reckless crimes. I was talking about criminal behavior period. If me giving the examples of the family killer and Vasquez is what gave you that impression, my bad...but seeing as Imp understood it, I guess people got what I was trying to say.

[Morbid]

I'd totally buy some of those. In fact, I think I might. Does that make me a bad person? :p

No, it just means you buy some pretty stupid shit. But that's all pretty subjective I guess. Maybe we can create our own pedophile trading cards...would you buy those as well? ;)

True crime has the market it does because a whole lot of us do wonder what makes these people tick.

Wow. I never knew. So that's what I have been doing the entire time you have been breathing. But how does owning any of their shit help with that? Let me ask you this. Is there a limit to what you would buy? I mean, if you could but the semen spattered shirt of one of Bundy's victims or maybe even a tooth that was knocked out of the face of one of Bundy's...you would want that? Why would you want ANYTHING attached to any of these crimes they committed. Why would you want any thing they have created?

None of those items has anything to do about wondering what makes these people tick.

[swivel]

Sometimes we have a thread on our site that makes me look back at all the jokes I've made, and it gives me regrets.

I start thinking that my (mostly) harmless comments aren't funny anymore. They are sick. They could make an investigating officer see this site as a haunt for prime suspects. They reflect a gory visage of us, as we go from horror-stricken, to bemused, to numb, to joyful ecstasy.

I don't want to ever get to numb. And I certainly don't want to arrive at a point beyond...

[CPL CHUD]

Horror movies excite me more than reading about actual crimes. I know a lot of horror has a basis in reality, but reading what real people do often shadows the repulsion I'd ever feel in the land of make believe.

Fictional horror tickles my imagination, real crime tickles my repulsion. Sometimes the response is to joke at real crime; to make light of it and bring about levity in my own mind. Sometimes it's not to respond at all. None the less, to understand why people do the things they do I seek science, not memorabillia, and certainly not media.

[celtic friend]

Sometimes I have to take a break from reading the cases on here. They really get to me, I know they will not go away but I feel like I should be able to save all of these kids.
As for murderabilia, I would not even be able to have something like that in my house, I would have a very unreasonable fear of the item. I have certain things in my house and on me at all times that I associate with good, I know they are just items but still, I would never be able to have things associated with bad or evil acts in the house. I know they are inanimate before anyone jumps on me that is why I say unreasonable.
I didn't think murderers would be able to profit off of items, but they shouldn't be anyway, and I don't think there is a real need for these things. I wonder if the murderers get off on knowing their items are so wanted because of these killings that took place?
As for OJ I wish there was no DJ law and he could be tried again. I am glad the families fought him on the release.

[Athena]

You had it right Imp, because not all criminals, or the crimes they commit, are a form of, or are born out of, depravity. Some crimes are necessity, some are from belief, whether it be religious or personal, and others are just plane ignorance and stupidity.

Please, name a SINGLE story, posted on the front page, that doesn't involve depravity. If you can't, how am I to tell you're interested in that beyond the depraved? If you can, I'm wrong. But, I've been here since, what, June? And I can't recall reading a single story that wasn't, at the very least, posted because it was initially believed to involve depravity. You sure as shit haven't posted any Les Miserables stories, that I can remember.

I don't remember ever saying I was talking about just violent or reckless crimes. I was talking about criminal behavior period. If me giving the examples of the family killer and Vasquez is what gave you that impression, my bad...but seeing as Imp understood it, I guess people got what I was trying to say.

You named two examples of clear depravity...to prove that depravity has nothing to do with your interest? But I am to be faulted for stuggling with what can reasonably perceived as a clear contradiction?

Imp understood it. Imp also knows you better than I do. When you speak to people, you shouldn't assume so much. Because, there's no making heads from tails based solely on what you wrote.

My personal attraction to crime has nothing to do with depravity. I find the person who is able to kill his entire family just as interesting, on a psychological level, as I do the Jessica Vasquez's

And, I ask - What does the family killer have in common with Vasquez, but sets them apart from you or me? Depravity, corruption, degeneration - That's the only thing that sets me apart from a Vasquez, or even a family killer...or a dude who shakes his kid to death, or steals a skull, or, or, or...

Sometimes we have a thread on our site that makes me look back at all the jokes I've made, and it gives me regrets.

I start thinking that my (mostly) harmless comments aren't funny anymore. They are sick. They could make an investigating officer see this site as a haunt for prime suspects. They reflect a gory visage of us, as we go from horror-stricken, to bemused, to numb, to joyful ecstasy.

I don't want to ever get to numb. And I certainly don't want to arrive at a point beyond...

Glad to get you thinking. Because, while I might quietly purchase some trading cards, or a sketch (although I've done neither, yet), I don't feel as though I ever openly belittle people's suffering - something that is perceived as standard procedure around here.

And that's really just it. How many people take issue with the relatively innocent comments on the front page? People perceive what they will. We don't mean anything bad by it, nor do most people mean anything disrespectful by owning murderabilia, I don't figure.

I'm totally down with not supplying profits to the criminals in question. But, for me, owning some little item with relevance to a criminal is no different than the spider encased in plastic that I've got on my keychain...Just a fascination with that which is dangerous.

[Athena]

No, it just means you buy some pretty stupid shit. But that's all pretty subjective I guess. Maybe we can create our own pedophile trading cards...would you buy those as well? ;)

If I had the fascination with pedophiles that I do with murderers, perhaps. For some reason, I'm more fascinated with some brands of depravity than others. Killers gain more of my attention than rapists; serial killers moreso than gang-land murderers; Child serial killers moreso than prostitute serial killers...I don't know. I guess the better I think I can understand something, the less fascinated with it I am.

I'm kind of surprised that I'm catching shit for this.

Wow. I never knew. So that's what I have been doing the entire time you have been breathing. But how does owning any of their shit help with that? Let me ask you this. Is there a limit to what you would buy? I mean, if you could but the semen spattered shirt of one of Bundy's victims or maybe even a tooth that was knocked out of the face of one of Bundy's...you would want that? Why would you want ANYTHING attached to any of these crimes they committed. Why would you want any thing they have created?

None of those items has anything to do about wondering what makes these people tick.

Yep, you're WAY older than me. We've established that. As for owning murderabilia helping with understanding? I never said it did. In fact, as far as I can tell, it doesn't. But that's the funny thing about fascination. To go back to the spider on my keychain - it doesn't help me understand why it's deadly. It doesn't help me understand shit. But it's fascinating to me...And some don't understand why I'd want to look at it. I'm okay with that.

Just like a sketch of Minnie, Mickey and Donald Duck might be fascinating to me. You keep reverting to these especially gruesome items, as though that might be what draws my interest (these posts are directed at me, aren't they?), as though I understand what causes people to buy hair or a scab or something. I mean, a "semen-spattered shirt" or a tooth? Really? Something like a sketch would appeal to me, yes...Just as easily as something like a sketch would not appeal to you. Subjective, indeed.

[Athena]

I didn't think murderers would be able to profit off of items, but they shouldn't be anyway, and I don't think there is a real need for these things.

These are all reasonable statements, CF. I generally agree. Murderers shouldn't be able to profit, theoretically. But what about the man convicted wrongfully who has nothing but his artistic talent to pay for his legal counsel? He may be the exception, but ought to be considered.

And, you're absolutely right - there is no real need for these things.