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Thread: Death by firing squad is '100 percent justice'

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    Redneck Coyote's Avatar
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    Death by firing squad is '100 percent justice'

    The executioner says he was eager to join the firing squad.

    Not because he was familiar with the 1996 case, or felt the need to deliver justice for a raped and murdered little girl.

    It wasn't even because his high school classmate was raped and killed just before graduation.

    So why did he do it? Why choose to join four other men in executing a convicted murderer?

    "How often does this come along?" he says, "... 100 percent justice."

    It's been more than 14 years since guns were last fired in Utah's execution chamber. But later this month, they may sound again, reviving a debate about the death penalty and the methods used to carry it out.

    The one-time executioner met a CNN reporter in a Salt Lake City restaurant Tuesday to talk about his former role as Utah prepares to put Ronnie Lee Gardner before a firing squad June 18.

    Gardner was convicted of killing attorney Michael Burdell in 1985 during an attempted escape from custody at a Salt Lake City courthouse, where he was appearing for a pre-trial hearing in connection with another murder. On Thursday, he will go before the state Board of Pardons and Parole in an effort to have his death penalty commuted.

    The former firing squad member asked not to be named, as he remains a law enforcement officer in the state. The man he helped execute, John Albert Taylor, was sentenced to death for killing an 11-year-old girl in 1989. Charla Nicole King had been sexually assaulted. A telephone cord was wrapped around her neck -- three times, her mother told authorities. She knew because she counted as she unwound it, trying to revive her daughter.

    The officer agreed to recount his experience because he believes in the death penalty -- and thinks the firing squad method is plagued by misconceptions.

    It is not like the scenes depicted in movies, with a condemned man tied to a stake and smoking a last cigarette before being riddled with bullets in a gruesome spectacle. Instead, he says over coffee, toast with grape jelly and an omelet, the process is instantaneous and carried out with the utmost professionalism.

    "It was anti-climactic," he says. "Another day at the office."

    He has brought with him a stack of photos from Taylor's autopsy, including one of the man's heart, blown into three pieces.

    Does he have any lingering effects from his role in the execution?

    "I've shot squirrels I've felt worse about," he says. He volunteered to participate, he said, and would do so again, given the opportunity.

    "There's just some people," he says, "we need to kick off the planet."

    The officer remembers feeling a sense of responsibility that day, as he awaited the countdown to fire at Taylor, strapped into a chair 17 feet away with a target pinned to his chest.

    He remembers telling himself, "Don't (expletive) this up."

    The five men selected for the firing squad had been given a month to prepare. They practiced their shooting in the execution chamber.

    On the day of the execution, four of the five were armed with live rounds. The fifth received an "ineffective" round that, unlike a blank, delivers the same recoil as a live round. No one knew who had the ineffective round.

    Two alternate marksmen were on standby -- one to replace an officer who loses his nerve (none did) and a second to replace the alternate.

    At the designated time, the five fired simultaneously. Only one shot was heard.

    "They don't want to hear five shots," the officer said.

    The former executioner has brought someone with him to the interview: Chris Zimmerman, once the police chief in Roy, Utah, who investigated the King slaying, interrogated Taylor, arrested him and witnessed his execution.

    Zimmerman recalls seeing Taylor clench his fists as a reflex. His chest rose, and then sunk.

    "The process was not gruesomely bloody, nor was it slow. "We were there, and it's not that way," the officer said.

    He remembers getting home at 3 a.m. -- Utah executions are conducted just after midnight. Five hours later, he was kicking in a door to serve a search warrant.

    A coworker who recently had struggled after shooting a suspect approached him to make sure he was OK, the officer said. But a police shooting, where an officer must make a split-second decision, is "a whole different world," he said. "I'm going .... 'Look, man, this is nothing like what you went through.'

    "I do not want to downplay in any way what real cops do in real shootings."

    Zimmerman points out that an officer who saw Taylor running from the murder scene with a gun and shot him would have been considered a hero. "Both ways, we killed him," he said.

    He remembers King's mother telling investigators of finding her daughter's body and trying to resuscitate her before realizing it was fruitless, gently unwrapping the cord from the girl's neck.

    "That woman has to live with that the rest of her life, and John Albert Taylor was put to death in seconds," Zimmerman said.

    The officer points out that both Gardner and another death-row inmate in Utah, Troy Kell, were already in custody when they killed again. Gardner was charged with killing bartender Melvyn Otterstrom in October 1984; Kell was serving time for murder when he killed another inmate in a Utah prison.

    No one executed for their crime, the officer points out, has ever killed again.

    "It seems to be quite effective," he says. "Nobody's heard from Gary Gilmore," the first person executed after the Supreme Court lifted a ban on capital punishment in 1976. Gilmore died by firing squad at the Utah State Prison in 1977.

    "You'll notice this didn't take two and a half hours," he says, referring to a recent execution in Ohio, where personnel had trouble finding a vein on an inmate to administer a lethal injection.

    "The death penalty," the officer says, "is nothing more than sending a defective product back to the manufacturer. Let him fix it."

    Asked about the arguments against the death penalty -- that one race receives it disproportionately, that the poor are more likely to wind up on death row -- the officer discounts them as procedural issues that should be fixed in the courts, not the execution chamber.

    As soon as the death penalty is discarded, he believes, those same arguments will be turned against the alternative -- life in prison without the possibility of parole.

    And, he and Zimmerman say, polls show that most Americans support the death penalty. "The pulse of America is, 'Look, we're tired of this stuff,'" the officer says.

    Utah was given permission to use the firing squad as a method of execution by the U.S. Supreme Court in 1879, according to the Death Penalty Information Center, a non-profit organization. Although one other state -- Oklahoma -- currently allows firing squad as a secondary method of execution, it can be used only if lethal injection and electrocution are ruled unconstitutional.

    Firing squads are still in use in other countries; according to the Capital Punishment UK website, they are steadily declining. The site says there were 30 such executions worldwide in 2007 -- 15 in Afghanistan, one each in Belarus, Ethiopia, Indonesia and North Korea, three in Somalia and eight in Yemen. Some provinces in China are also thought to use the method.

    Utah lawmakers outlawed the firing squad in 2004, but a handful of death-row inmates who had already chosen it as their execution method were grandfathered in after family members of murder victims begged the state Legislature not to open another door for appeals, lengthening what in many cases has become at least a 20-year wait for justice.

    "The appeals process is a little out of control," the officer said. "Get it done in a couple of years and move on."

    Asked about cases in which people are freed from prison after being proved innocent, the officer says he doubts there have been innocent people executed since 1976. It's hard to convict someone and put them on death row, he says, and it's harder to keep them there through numerous appeals. That process minimizes the risk of the innocent being executed, he says.

    Taylor's death, the officer says, was a homicide in that it came at the hands of others. But it was not murder, he maintains, and the death penalty "needs to be used more often."

    "I haven't lost three seconds of sleep over it," he says. "... it's true justice."
    Source

    I like this guy and he has some good points. As he says, “There's just some people we need to kick off the planet.”
    "If you ask me, this country could do with a little less motivation. The people who are causing all the trouble seem highly motivated to me. Serial killers, stock swindlers, drug dealers, Christian Republicans. I'm not sure that motivation is always a good thing. You show me a lazy prick lying in bed all day watching TV, and I'll show you a guy who's not causing any trouble." --George Carlin

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    "It seems to be quite effective," he says. "Nobody's heard from Gary Gilmore," the first person executed after the Supreme Court lifted a ban on capital punishment in 1976. Gilmore died by firing squad at the Utah State Prison in 1977.
    I actually recently finished reading the Norman Mailer novel Exectutioner's Song about Gary Gilmore, and then morbid curiosity had me watch the movie (same title with Tommy Lee Jones)

    I'm intrigued that the condemned are permitted to chose their method of execution. I don't believe they deserve the 'humane' lethal injection like a beloved pet being put to sleep. I dig the firing squad, handier with nasty animals.
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    Great Marshal Southern Sin's Avatar
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    I like the firing squad idea too....

    Voilent death for a violent life i say...

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    HOW they die is entirely irrelevant, to me. I don't care if it's a quietly snapped neck or being torn limb for limb by lions. The FACT of the matter is that, as new evidence comes to light, we are increasingly unsure that we're getting the right guy, and for as long as that's the case, we shouldn't make any of our sentences irreversible.

    Aside from that, this guy is kind of a simple-minded douche. This claim:

    As soon as the death penalty is discarded, he believes, those same arguments will be turned against the alternative -- life in prison without the possibility of parole.
    ...is akin to the super-retarded "if gay marriage becomes legal, it's only a matter of time before pedophilia is, too."

    LWOP has overwhelming support. I've NEVER heard an argument against it in my 10+ years of debating the death penalty. People aren't going to turn on that "just because they can." That's asinine.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    Redneck Coyote's Avatar
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    I don’t support LWOP as I detest my tax dollars going to provide food, shelter and medical assistance to the scum of the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post

    As soon as the death penalty is discarded, he believes, those same arguments will be turned against the alternative -- life in prison without the possibility of parole.
    ...is akin to the super-retarded "if gay marriage becomes legal, it's only a matter of time before pedophilia is, too."
    Where do you get this at? People already complain that minorities and the poor aren’t treated fairly by our justice system. It’s in humans nature to decry what they feel is injustice. Why should it be any different for LWOP?
    "If you ask me, this country could do with a little less motivation. The people who are causing all the trouble seem highly motivated to me. Serial killers, stock swindlers, drug dealers, Christian Republicans. I'm not sure that motivation is always a good thing. You show me a lazy prick lying in bed all day watching TV, and I'll show you a guy who's not causing any trouble." --George Carlin

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    Grand Marshal sodom's Avatar
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    A firing squad kinda sounds like fun.But,If I ever lose it and make a mess?Chop my fucking head off with a rusty axe.Hard........It's how we live.I's how we die.

    RIP Goathead......................
    "Killing is killing whether done for duty,profit or fun."

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    Malignant Narcissist brokenandtwisted's Avatar
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    I too fail to see how the method of execution is relative to capital punishment. Although I strongly oppose the death penalty (pretty much for the same reasons as Athena), I do feel that perhaps the method doesn't match the crime. I cannot comprehend the reasoning behind the lethal injection of a child serial rapist...as opposed to removing his limbs with a 4H pencil...which is far more appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    HOW they die is entirely irrelevant, to me. I don't care if it's a quietly snapped neck or being torn limb for limb by lions.
    First time I've said this...but I am very disappointed with you, Athena. Any self-respecting misanthropic sadist would go with the latter.

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    Great President sorrow_discord's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post

    LWOP has overwhelming support. I've NEVER heard an argument against it in my 10+ years of debating the death penalty. People aren't going to turn on that "just because they can." That's asinine.

    Actually there are a few groups that are anti LWOP
    here's one, http://theotherdeathpenalty.org/

    I know there is also a group based out of PA, it was in our media awhile back.

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    Great Baron Tits McGee's Avatar
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    "I've shot squirrels I've felt worse about," he says. He volunteered to participate, he said, and would do so again, given the opportunity.
    "The death penalty," the officer says, "is nothing more than sending a defective product back to the manufacturer. Let him fix it."
    This guy is hysterical!
    "Work like you've never been hurt, fuck like you don't need the money, and scratch like nobody's watching." -- Crystal from Squidbillies.


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    Great Count Angelinfl's Avatar
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    With the advent of DNA and cameras etc. there are more ways to confirm guilt. Keeping these people for years and years in jail is just plain wrong IMHO. If they are sentenced to die.. give them one appeal and then if still sentenced to the big D and I don't mean Dallas.... get rid of them in 30 days like Saddam and move on in life.

    That may deter some people because it is still in their world that it actually happens and people are actually REALLY put to death.

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    Great Marshal Southern Sin's Avatar
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    Ronnie Lee Gardner executed by firing squad

    Original Article

    DRAPER, Utah - Convicted killer Ronnie Lee Gardner has been pronounced dead after he was executed by firing squad shortly after midnight. Gardner had been moved to an observation cell adjacent to the death chamber, the place where he spent his final moments Thursday into Friday morning. Prison officials monitored the activities of 49-year-old Ronnie Lee Gardner and all units at the prison were under lockdown until the execution was carried out. Gardner was pronounced dead at 12:20 a.m.

    Prior to his execution, Gardner walked 90 feet from the observation cell to the death chamber at the Utah State Prison. A hood was placed over the murderer's head and a paper target was pinned to his chest in front of his heart. A five-person firing squad, four using live rounds and one using a blank, took aim at the target on Gardner's chest and shot him.

    Officials said Gardner had his last meal Wednesday, which consisted of a lobster tail, steak, apple pie, ice cream and a 7-Up and is now going through a self imposed 48-hour fast leading up to his execution.

    Gardner had his last meeting with family members at the prison Wednesday night. The prison has invited witnesses from the government, the families of the victims, Gardner's family and the media to attend the execution.

    Gardner has chosen to die by firing squad for killing attorney Michael Burdell during a 1985 courthouse escape attempt. He was in court for the murder of Melvyn Otterstrom during a robbery. On his way out of the courthouse, Gardner also shot and wounded deputy Nick Kirk, who died years later. Kirk's widow believes the gunshot wounds eventually killed her husband.

    Throughout the legal proceedings leading up to the execution, the families of Gardner's victims have been divided on the issue of the death penalty. Burdell's fiancée, Donna Nu, said she opposes executing him; the Otterstrom and Kirk families want Gardner put to death.

    The debate over the method of execution has sparked international interest. News media from across the globe are expected to arrive at the Utah State Prison to cover the execution. Utah officially did away with the firing squad as a method of execution in 2004, but several inmates are "grandfathered in."

    The execution is also drawing protests. The group Utahns for Alternatives to the Death Penalty held a prayer vigil at St. Mark's Cathedral at 5:30 p.m., then a rally was held at the state capitol at 9 p.m.
    So its a done deal then

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    According to FOX 13's Ben Winslow, who was among several members of local media who witnessed the event, Gardner's body tensed at the moment the four rounds of 30-30 caliber bullets hit their target. His fingers still moved. His arm raised and lowered again and again. Some thought he was still alive.

    http://www.dailypress.com/news/natio...,3431885.story

    Yeah, they were wrong, firing squad was 100% effective.
    "I love humanity, but I hate people." ~Edna St. Vincent Millay
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    I've shot squirrels I've felt worse about," he says. He volunteered to participate, he said, and would do so again, given the opportunity.
    Yea this guy is my new hero, Too bad he's not named.

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    Tweets from Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff
    A solemn day. Barring a stay by Sup Ct, & with my final nod, Utah will use most extreme power & execute a killer. Mourn his victims. Justice
    about 18 hours ago via TwitBird iPhone
    I just gave the go ahead to Corrections Director to proceed with Gardner's execution. May God grant him the mercy he denied his victims.
    about 7 hours ago via TwitBird iPhone

    "One of the things that Ronnie has said to me multiple times is, 'live by the gun, die by the gun,'" Gardner's personal attorney, Tyler Ayres
    http://www.aolnews.com/world/article...rdner/19521504

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    Cunt gee's Avatar
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    He was the person who will ever die by firing squad.

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    Mashable, a site that covers social media, asked if it was necessary for Shurtleff to be tweeting right before Gardner was shot to death. A number of Twitter users were similarly put off, with one writing that Shurtleff's tweet "will probably go down in history as the dumbest most disgusting use of Twitter ever."
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ynews/ynews_ts2702

    WOW.. ya think?
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    Grand Baron TACO's Avatar
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    An eye for an eye & a tooth for a tooth!
    What ever the criminal does to a victim, should be done to 10 times worse!

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    OK, so... I THOUGHT i had made another thread, here it is: http://www.dreamindemon.com/forums/s...ronnie+gardner needs to be merged.
    Anyway, I found this: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/201...424_DEATH.html which shows the CHAIR Gardner would be strapped to. A chair? I totally envisioned him being tied to a post. Seriously.
    "We must all go through a rite of passage, and it must be physical, it must be painful, and it must leave a mark." Captain Howdy, Strangeland.

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
    I don’t support LWOP as I detest my tax dollars going to provide food, shelter and medical assistance to the scum of the earth.
    But you're okay with spending three times that to execute a person? Sounds like finance isn't your true concern, here.

    Where do you get this at? People already complain that minorities and the poor aren’t treated fairly by our justice system. It’s in humans nature to decry what they feel is injustice. Why should it be any different for LWOP?
    Minorities and the poor AREN'T treated fairly, in many cases. Money may not be able to buy you love or happiness, but it sure as hell can buy you freedom in this country.

    I'm not saying it's different for LWOP. I'm just saying that I've never found anyone who considers it generally unjust (this differs from those who consider it unjust in specific circumstances, like juvenile sentencing, for example).

    Sorrow_Discord was able to come up with a source for a group that opposes LWOP in general, but that still isn't to suggest that it's a common opinion. The fact remains that I, in over a decade of debating such issues, has never met an individual opposed to LWOP. That doesn't mean they don't exist... just that they aren't common.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    Redneck Coyote's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    But you're okay with spending three times that to execute a person? Sounds like finance isn't your true concern, here.
    I believe we’ve been through this in another thread Athena. Show me where the cost of execution only runs that high. A good quality piece of rope can be obtained for less than $10 and there are plenty of trees provided by nature free of charge. How many days will $10 house a prisoner?
    "If you ask me, this country could do with a little less motivation. The people who are causing all the trouble seem highly motivated to me. Serial killers, stock swindlers, drug dealers, Christian Republicans. I'm not sure that motivation is always a good thing. You show me a lazy prick lying in bed all day watching TV, and I'll show you a guy who's not causing any trouble." --George Carlin

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coyote View Post
    I believe we’ve been through this in another thread Athena.
    You're probably right, Coyote.

    Show me where the cost of execution only runs that high. A good quality piece of rope can be obtained for less than $10 and there are plenty of trees provided by nature free of charge. How many days will $10 house a prisoner?
    Show me where execution only ever happens. It doesn't. Execution cannot be extracted from the process that allows it. That's like trying to "prove" that some outrageously expensive electric car is worth the price by just looking at the gas that it uses. But it can't be done - you can't use the gas without buying the car and the maintenance associated with it, just like you can't use the rope without buying the trial and appeals associated with it.

    And, at the end of the day, a capital case, trial through execution, is more significantly more expensive than a LWOP case, trial through natural death.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    Great President sorrow_discord's Avatar
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    I have heard the cost thing many times, and have even seen the figures. My question is how many of those figures are including the cost of the defense after trial phase and imposing of the DP phase, and in the cases where it is law the man. appeal? If they are including those defense costs other then what I listed then it is misleading as those costs are not paid by the state but by the defense themselves. (no state appointed lawyers after Man. appeal)

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrow_discord View Post
    I have heard the cost thing many times, and have even seen the figures. My question is how many of those figures are including the cost of the defense after trial phase and imposing of the DP phase, and in the cases where it is law the man. appeal? If they are including those defense costs other then what I listed then it is misleading as those costs are not paid by the state but by the defense themselves. (no state appointed lawyers after Man. appeal)
    The state in question is generally reviewing their costs, not privately-funded costs. This typically includes the cost of prosecution and expert witnesses for the state, jury selection, etc. Ultimately, they're trying to estimate their expense.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

  24. #24
    Great President sorrow_discord's Avatar
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    Here is something for the sake of argument. Say that we have twenty-five inmates that had video taped themselves committing the rape, torture and murder of their victims. This would leave without a doubt the actual guilt. Now say in cases such as this, where guilt can not be disputed of the the perp committing the crime that we have a law that says that the convicted must be executed within one year of conviction. Run that cost versus the cost of keeping them for 42 years (which is the average length of a person serving a LWOP)

    The majority of the cost of a DP case is upfront costs, there is no disputing the fact that it does cost more to try a DP case then a non DP case...but if the DP is actually carried out in cases where there can be no argument against the guilt of the perp and the execution is done in a timely manner then the actual cost is less then when one is serving a LWOP.


    Edit: On a side note, the courts have already ruled that in case of non-homicide cases people under the age of 18 can not recieve a LWOP. That means that a 15 year that has a history of extreme torture and rape must not be given LWOP. The courts stated earlier this year that it was cruel and unusual punishment. There is also a filing on behalf of adults who have been given LWOP for non homicide cases..even when the crime that they committed was one of extreme violence.
    Last edited by sorrow_discord; June 22nd, 2010 at 01:10 PM.

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrow_discord View Post
    The majority of the cost of a DP case is upfront costs, there is no disputing the fact that it does cost more to try a DP case then a non DP case...but if the DP is actually carried out in cases where there can be no argument against the guilt of the perp and the execution is done in a timely manner then the actual cost is less then when one is serving a LWOP.
    Sounds great in theory. In reality? Even when there's indisputable evidence (does that even exist in a world where video can be easily manipulated and DNA can be forged?), guilt is still an elusive finding. There are mitigating factors to contend with, psychology of the perp to consider.

    I think this best-case scenario is so rare and fleeting, it doesn't necessarily make sense to establish what amounts to a totally separate system for them.

    Edit: On a side note, the courts have already ruled that in case of non-homicide cases people under the age of 18 can not recieve a LWOP. That means that a 15 year that has a history of extreme torture and rape must not be given LWOP. The courts stated earlier this year that it was cruel and unusual punishment. There is also a filing on behalf of adults who have been given LWOP for non homicide cases..even when the crime that they committed was one of extreme violence.
    Yep... a ruling I agree with as it pertains to juveniles (and maybe even adults, although I haven't done much thinking about it). Remember, now, that life WITH parole does not guarantee parole. Parole can still be denied for individuals who do not appear to have benefitted from their sentence.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

  26. #26
    Great President sorrow_discord's Avatar
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    Considering that the majority of the time when video is manipulated that I have heard of has involved video taken by bystanders to prove police brutality by editing out of the part where the person physically attacked the police (Pittsburgh's protests a few years back were quite famous for having damning evidence against the protesters edited out when aired in the news. For the most part all that was shown was police using pepper spray on people not the reasons that led up to it)

    I have heard of people claiming that they were framed even when video proved they weren't. Shoplifters, molesters, and in a few cases murders. But can video be so seamlessly manipulated as to pass scrutiny by experts? Can a face be so flawlessly added so as to convict a person of rape, murder, theft that would pass any software program that the defense can run it through? Also why the hell would the police, having video proof of the crime and the perps actual face conceal that to frame another while knowingly letting the real perp off? Am I to believe that when the news is given video surveillance of a crime so as to find the perp that it is a fake, therefor upon seeing the person on the street ignoring the news release and going upon my merry way without reporting the sighting?

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrow_discord View Post
    But can video be so seamlessly manipulated as to pass scrutiny by experts? Can a face be so flawlessly added so as to convict a person of rape, murder, theft that would pass any software program that the defense can run it through?
    The technology exists, yes.

    Also why the hell would the police, having video proof of the crime and the perps actual face conceal that to frame another while knowingly letting the real perp off? Am I to believe that when the news is given video surveillance of a crime so as to find the perp that it is a fake, therefor upon seeing the person on the street ignoring the news release and going upon my merry way without reporting the sighting?
    I'm not saying the practice would be common - I'm saying that the possibility exists. I happen to believe that, for as long as the possibility exists that we could get it wrong, we should not be executing people. A LOT would have to change for me to find the death penalty an acceptable practice. I don't have moral qualms with the death penalty... my qualms are financial and constitutional. If we could remove those concerns, I'd be all for it. I just don't see how we can.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

  28. #28
    Great President sorrow_discord's Avatar
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    The technology exists, yes.

    Name one case that was tried in a court of law where this has happened and has been proved to have happened.


    The possibility does not exit, as there is also technology that would prove even the slightest alteration and or edit.

    Under those arguments. as there is technology(trojans) that can cause child porn to be unknowingly downloaded onto a hard drive, then the actual proof of child porn on a computer should not be the only proof used in court to convict a person of possessing child porn...but the technology does exist and has been used quite often that proves how the porn was aquired (by either trojan or other means)

    just as a person attempting to prove innocence because of taped crime has been found to have tampered with video. I have never heard of any case where it was argued that a taped crime was doctored so as to convict a person.
    Last edited by sorrow_discord; June 22nd, 2010 at 07:37 PM.

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sorrow_discord View Post
    Name one case that was tried in a court of law where this has happened and has been proved to have happened.


    The possibility does not exit, as there is also technology that would prove even the slightest alteration and or edit.

    Under those arguments. as there is technology(trojans) that can cause child porn to be unknowingly downloaded onto a hard drive, then the actual proof of child porn on a computer should not be the only proof used in court to convict a person of possessing child porn...but the technology does exist and has been used quite often that proves how the porn was aquired (by either trojan or other means)

    just as a person attempting to prove innocence because of taped crime has been found to have tampered with video. I have never heard of any case where it was argued that a taped crime was doctored so as to convict a person.
    Sorrow, just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't make it impossible. For all my life, they've been warning Seattleites about some monster 9.0 earthquake that could swallow the city whole. It hasn't happened yet. Does that mean it never could?

    The way you talk makes me think that, perhaps, you're unfamiliar with criminal legal proceedings. There's no guarantee that a tampered video would be granted access to technology proving its falsehood, just like confessions get thrown out, just like prosecution (or defense) wrongly sits on key evidence, etc., etc. Our system is flawed.

    We've gotten entirely too focused on the issue of video technology, when that's really beside the point. My point? That, for as long as the system is run by humans, there IS room for error. And, for as long as the potential for error exists, our sentencing should not be irreversible. I'm making a similar argument in the sterilization thread.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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