Originally Posted by biteme
There a five links that address and debunk way more than jobs. If you took the time too read them you might actually be able to have an informed debate regarding this subject.
WOW."Maybe they should give unto others before demanding from the USA?"
Like I said depends on what point of view the article and numbers come from
everyone has an agenda whether pro or con
But I see you only read/believe those that agree with your point of view
and your response has nothing to do with what I posted
What's new
LOL
Oh for fucks sake! Never mind. Really.
Ethnic studies do not teach history. They teach the causes of victimisation. They are courses that exist simply to employ left-wing zealots and advance a limited and radical political agenda. The Arizona law is not limiting any citisen's rights. The Arizona law is not calling for a return to the era of segregation. The Arizona law is simply an attempt to enforce already existing immigration laws. The State of Arizona is forced to do this, because the Federal Government has abrogated the responsibility it has to do this. No Latino citisen in Arizona will be prohibited from voting, owning property, serving on a jury, owning a fire-arm, marrying a person of another race....or having digital cable television....so....please...dispense with the ridiculous hyperbole.
Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
That lift your vassal hands against my head
And threat the glory of my precious crown.
Post of the Day Pete. Echo's rants on this subject alone make me realize that she has friends that are illegal and feels that they are abused.
You have never been more wrong. Of course they teach about History. OUR HISTORY. We do not have a common geneaology in the US. How is it that some of you do not understand that?
None of us are natives. NONE. Unless you are Native American you came from somewhere else either through immigration or from someone that immigrated here.
We are a nation of different ethnic groups and always have been .
Period.
The new Arizona "laws" are as Un-American, racist, and ignorant as it gets. It's nauseating.
Or I happen to read and inform myself unlike some people that insist on bingeing on the stupid juice.
There are tons of posts in the two Arizona threads, feel free to actually read them to find out why my opinion is what it is.
Or you can continue to be spoonfed nonsense.That's entirely your choice.
What? He couldn't be more right, and your argument is extremely flawed. There are thousands of ethnic groups in the USA alone. They aren't teaching all of them in one ethnic studies course, dear, so pulling the 'common genealogy' card is hogwash on principle of what is being taught in these courses. These exact courses exist due to affirmative action and the historical oppression of 'ethnic groups' that consist of Asian, African, Latin and Native Americans. Fine and all but entirely irrelevant to standardized education.
General history is to be examined and studied with facts, figures and all bias is to be disregarded. Whether the individuals from historical times are of Latin descent is irrelevant in a general history course. This is not a university curriculum. The students should not and do not need to be specializing in various ethnic studies. The curricula should be approaching history (as well as every other humanities subject) with strict neutrality.
I have spent twenty-two of my twenty-six years alive in public education systems and not once have I taken an 'ethnic studies' course and I am extremely cultured and liberal to a fault. Saying people are 'ignorant' because they do not want specialized courses within their elementary/secondary school systems is foolish. These systems are established to provide a well-rounded and generalized education, they are not to teach interdisciplinary studies. Are these same schools teaching other interdisciplinary studies such as linguistics, biophysics, cognitive science? Leave 'ethnic studies' to colleges and universities.
Fuck, no wonder America has a horrid reputation regarding education if you're all off teaching one another about various races and not useful shit like mathematics, bio/chem/physics, English, HEALTH CLASSES, other languages, general history.
Just gonna throw out there one more time that the courses we are discussing are electives. I feel like that might be getting lost.
And that's kinda my thing with this. As far as I can tell, the argument for the existance of ethnic studies is not that standard history courses were insufficient. And if it were, the answer would still be to MAKE them sufficient, not to make supplimentary, optional electives. That'd be a cop out.
Now, this:
Indeed. And the problem with topics as fluid as "ethnic studies" is that they lend themselves to manipulation and bias. It can be easily influenced by the educator, sometimes unintentionally. No matter what the ethnicity, there is a history of white oppression. Simply observing this is not harmful, but the line between observing white oppression and insinuating that whites are inherently domineering and oppressive has illustrated itself as fine on many an occasion.The curricula should be approaching history (as well as every other humanities subject) with strict neutrality.
The problem is that these courses are not as they tend to be on a university level, where you've got a Hispanic professor teaching Asian studies to a diverse crowd. No - when played out at the high school level, these courses tend to include Native American teachers teaching Native American Studies to a Native American crowd, thus increasing the chance for bias to manifest [i]exponentially[i].
When looked at separate from the immigration law, this law is simply establishing some controls to prevent that.
I would also note in relation to Pete's claim of political bias in these classes that the term "activist" is commonly associated with them, and that's never a good thing, really.
"Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"
Regardless of being electives or compulsory, politically charged subjects (in this case race, creationism is another big one) have no place in public education. As you stated, the possibility of bias increases exponentially when an 'ethnic' individual is teaching their respective courses.
You cannot teach AMERICAN history WITHOUT teaching about ethnicities. The white man's fear of Ethnic Studies is laughable to me.
It says a lot.
You are a fool. You do not need to discuss the values, roles and other morals of (an example) historic Latin Americans to learn about American history. I sure as Hell didn't in high school while learning American history, and ironically I probably know more shit about your country than you do. Every country in the world has 'ethnic people'. Incidentally Canada has a horrible human rights history and I never attended a course on the historical oppression of Asian-Canadians from the 1840s-1950s. And guess what? I know all about those events, the people involved, the dates...and I learnt all about it without studying ethnicities.
I am inclined to believe you don't know what the fuck ethnic studies even are.
Neutrality is a fundamental principle of standardized public education. If you want to teach your children about various races and their roles within society, ship them off to a private liberal arts high school.
Last edited by brokenandtwisted; May 28th, 2010 at 04:23 PM. Reason: Durrrrrr, parenthesis fuck-up.
A panel of experts has concluded that I have won this argument. Do not question these findings.
Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
That lift your vassal hands against my head
And threat the glory of my precious crown.
This is where you're getting caught up, I think. A complete picture of American history will include - DOES include - elements of ethnic studies as you seem to be understanding it (as in the inclusion of ethnic groups). That's not the argument, here. You can't teach about slavery without mentioning blacks, or the history of transit without mentioning the Chinese, or WWII without mentioning Japanese citizens.
Ethnic studies, however, do not give a complete picture of American history. These are supplimentary electives, and, without certain controls, they are dubious and potentially dangerous. There are ample examples of ethnic studies gone bad. Because of the nature of Ethnic Studies, it is easy for educators to frame opinions as facts.
It is not appropriate to teach a group of Latino students that "Republicans hate Latinos". It is not appropriate to teach a group of minority students of any sort that white people are inherently racist. It is not responsible to teach that the "White Establishment" is the cause of personal failures among minorities. It is in these respects that ethnic studies can actually do more harm than good, and it appears as though this is what AZ legislators are trying to avoid.
It's already been conceded (at least by me) that the timing is terrible in conjunction with the immigration law, and that the motivation for THIS law may very well be prejudice. But, this law, when viewed independently and without assumption, is not entirely without merit.
Ultimately, I would agree with Broken in that ethnic studies as a specialized course really should be left to the university level. I don't know that public schools have the resources to establish the necessary controls. But this is not to suggest that the elements of ethnic studies required for a well-rounded understanding of American history should be discontinued or neglected or anything of the like.
Last edited by Athena; May 28th, 2010 at 04:57 PM.
"Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"
If you were really informed then you would understand that these laws are not racist. But you continue to spew your crap about "whitewashing America" or your referals to Whitey. Who is the actual racist. Time to look in the mirror.Or I happen to read and inform myself unlike some people that insist on bingeing on the stupid juice.
There are tons of posts in the two Arizona threads, feel free to actually read them to find out why my opinion is what it is.
Or you can continue to be spoonfed nonsense.
Thanks to all posters for this lively debate. I don't know enough to participate, but I am enjoying the differing points of view and learning a lot. Y'all are giving a tired and disillusioned old social reformer hope for the future. Let's go chain ourselves to a fence!
"If you can't live without me, why aren't you DEAD?"" cb said this to an ex
"I've already got one asshole in my pants, why would I want another one?" cb said this to an obnoxious drunk
"Oh, man! That sucks like a hooker when the rent's due" cb says this when shit gets real
"I don't care HOW big your dick is, it's 3 AM. Go call somebody else" cb said this to an obscene phone caller
AZ... Staying classy.
Yeah... you've got motorists yelling racial slurs at the artists in the presence of children, but Mr. Blair is under the impression that Prescott is exempt from race-relations issues.A group of artists has been asked to lighten the faces of children depicted in a giant public mural at a Prescott school.
The project's leader says he was ordered to lighten the skin tone after complaints about the children's ethnicity. But the school's principal says the request was only to fix shading and had nothing to do with political pressure.
The "Go on Green" mural, which covers two walls outside Miller Valley Elementary School, was designed to advertise a campaign for environmentally friendly transportation. It features portraits of four children, with a Hispanic boy as the dominant figure.
R.E. Wall, director of Prescott's Downtown Mural Project, said he and other artists were subjected to slurs from motorists as they worked on the painting at one of the town's most prominent intersections.
"We consistently, for two months, had people shouting racial slander from their cars," Wall said. "We had children painting with us, and here come these yells of (epithet for Blacks) and (epithet for Hispanics)."
Wall said school Principal Jeff Lane pressed him to make the children's faces appear happier and brighter.
"It is being lightened because of the controversy," Wall said, adding that "they want it to look like the children are coming into light."
Lane said that he received only three complaints about the mural and that his request for a touch-up had nothing to do with political pressure. "We asked them to fix the shading on the children's faces," he said. "We were looking at it from an artistic view. Nothing at all to do with race."
City Councilman Steve Blair spearheaded a public campaign on his talk show at Prescott radio station KYCA-AM (1490) to remove the mural.
In a broadcast last month, according to the Daily Courier in Prescott, Blair mistakenly complained that the most prominent child in the painting is African-American, saying: "To depict the biggest picture on the building as a Black person, I would have to ask the question: Why?"
Blair could not be reached for comment Thursday. In audio archives of his radio show, Blair discusses the mural. He insists the controversy isn't about racism but says the mural is intended to create racial controversy where none existed before.
"Personally, I think it's pathetic," he says. "You have changed the ambience of that building to excite some kind of diversity power struggle that doesn't exist in Prescott, Arizona. And I'm ashamed of that."
Faces in the mural were drawn from photographs of children enrolled at Miller Valley, a K-5 school with 380 students and the highest ethnic mix of any school in Prescott. Wall said thousands of town residents volunteered or donated to the project, the fourth in a series of community murals painted by a group of artists known as the "Mural Mice."
The public art, funded by a $5,000 state grant through the Prescott Alternative Transportation Center, was selected by school students and faculty.
"The parents and children love it," Lane said.
Looks like Mr. Blair should get out of the office more often.
Last edited by Athena; June 7th, 2010 at 12:24 PM.
"Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"
good lord, that Blair person makes me want to scream! that's the mentality at work here?
(the guy in charge of mural projects is named "Wall" - i find that truly delightful)
Image at unveiling in May and after some work had started on it.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EnO6DJ8RqIE"]YouTube- Prescott Mural on Going Green, Jeff Lane & Kevin Kapp Apologize[/ame]
Info on video:The video has him saying they are giving the artistry back to the artist.On June 5th, 2010 in Prescott, AZ, Miller Valley Elementary School principal Jeff Lane and Prescott Unified School District Superintendent Kevin Kapp admit they made a mistake and apologize for their decision to lighten children's faces on the "Go Green" mural painted on the side of the school.
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the mural was perfect when it was unveiled. bringing artistry back to the artist, rather than to minor politicians/administrators, sounds like a step in the right direction.
Image at unveiling in May and after some work had started on it.
YouTube- Prescott Mural on Going Green, Jeff Lane & Kevin Kapp Apologize
Info on video:The video has him saying they are giving the artistry back to the artist.
Pathetic. At least AZ is consistent in beyond stupid and a shining example in ignorance and intolerance.
I find it saddening that you expected more from a state where rich, white Republicans retire.
I live in Prescott and it has been such a buzz all over. And I agree about the white Republican party. It is sad when you are with people and a colored person walks by and everyone points and says "omg a black guy! wow havent seen one of those ina while."
Just so wrong.
I shut my eyes and all the world drops dead; I lift my eyes and all is born again. ~Sylvia <3 Plath
I am too pure for you or anyone.
What a bunch of shit.You actually know a fucking person that said"OMG a black guy?"
Wow!!I usually hear"it's another non english speaking motherfucker!"I just want to flame the fuck out of all you fucking motherfuckers.All you pros and cons.......Besides Echo.Everyone thinks she is a bitch.You are correct!But that bitch has a big brain.That gives her ten cool points off the top.I have nothing to add to the debate.
Just talking shit
"Killing is killing whether done for duty,profit or fun."
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