Somethin's A'brewin in the South...

[Athena]

They're dropping quick as Pan Handle-sized hail balls - legislation designed to offend the sensibilities of freedom loving people.

First, and perhaps most notibly, there was the AZ immigration law which gives police the power to "check the papers" of anyone suspected to be here illegally. In other words, especially brown people. Reports have stated that "other states" are considering similar legislation. I haven't seen which states specifically reported, but no doubt they're southern.

Now, let's consider Oklahoma's two new anti-abortion laws. One forces women undergoing an abortion to get an ultrasound and hear details about the baby from the doctor if they refuse to look at the screen during a sonogram. The other protects doctors from malpractice suits if they withhold information or provide straight up false information about their pregnancy. It appears this piece of legislation is intended to prevent women from aborting disabled or otherwise ill fetuses. In both cases, the Democratic governor Henry vetoed the bill, but the overwhelmingly Republican OK legislature voted to override the veto, so the two became law immediately.

Similarly, Kansas is trying to approve a law that would allow family members (husbands? parents?) to sue doctors who perform "questionably late-term" abortions. That bill has been vetoed by the governor, but lawmakers are expected to try to override the veto.

Lastly, there are the remarks from Alabama's gubernatorial candidate, Tim James.

"Why do our politicians make us give driver's license exams in 12 languages? This is Alabama. We speak English," James says. "If you want to live here, learn it. We're only giving that test in English if I'm governor. Maybe it's the businessman in me, but we'll save money and it makes sense."

James pauses, looks down contemplatively, and then gazes up again to ask: "Does it to you?"

For the first time in my political experience, we've seen a rash of death threats administered to politicians over votes they've made. It's no secret that Obama's rise to Presidency has caused a spike in hate group interest/membership.

Could it be that the very presence of Obama or the Democrat mandate is proving even more polarizing than Bush? And could we be moving toward something ominous, here?

[cubby]

"...but no doubt they're southern."

As much as I respect you and sometimes agree with you, I take exception to that remark. The south is not the only area of this country with stupid or questionable legislation. Just go and look at some of the other threads you have started to get the proof you would want. Happy Meal toys banned is the first to come to my mind at the moment.

[Mystica43229]

I'm sure an uprising is going to happen and by the end of 2012, the way that we will think will end and hopefully for the better. I think that all these conservative, racist trash are going to fall because they are coming out more and more in droves and people are finally going to realize how fucking ignorant they are.

[Mystica43229]

I'm sure an uprising is going to happen and by the end of 2012, the way that we will think will end and hopefully for the better. I think that all these conservative, racist trash are going to fall because they are coming out more and more in droves and people are finally going to realize how fucking ignorant they are.

I'm talking about them all over the country not just in the southern states.

[Athena]

"...but no doubt they're southern."

As much as I respect you and sometimes agree with you, I take exception to that remark. The south is not the only area of this country with stupid or questionable legislation. Just go and look at some of the other threads you have started to get the proof you would want. Happy Meal toys banned is the first to come to my mind at the moment.

Touchy, there, Cubby!

I was specifically referencing Arizona-style immigration laws. States along the Mexican border - southern states - have more reason to adopt such legislation than northern states. Washington's not going to be stopping illegal Canadians on the street any time soon.

[AngelFire]

Our Los Angeles Mayor, and Police Cheif said today that LA, will not adapt those laws, and I agree with him.

I am brown skin, and I am 100% legal. I don't require a green card, and neither do any of my kids. But just because of my skin color, I may be stopped and questioned if I am in Arizona. It's racial profiling, and they continue to argue that it isn't. Then how the hell else would they determine who may, or may not be here illegally? I don't walk around with my birth certificate.

[Mystica43229]

Our Los Angeles Mayor, and Police Cheif said today that LA, will not adapt those laws, and I agree with him.

I am brown skin, and I am 100% legal. I don't require a green card, and neither do any of my kids. But just because of my skin color, I may be stopped and questioned if I am in Arizona. It's racial profiling, and they continue to argue that it isn't. Then how the hell else would they determine who may, or may not be here illegally? I don't walk around with my birth certificate.

This country was founded my immigrants. I guess it's a tough subject. Our ancestors came here for a better life, and I guess, why can't we give others the same?

[CplPunishment]

Listen I don't understand why the borders are closed to one people and open to another. It is just not clear to me the justification. Look at the Louisana purchase for instance. We bought like 2 million acres of land and then told the residing people hey you got to go South cause you can't live here. Makes no sense to me at all. In Israel the Palestinian people strap bombs on because of this exact kind of stuff. Just thankful it is not happening here. Yet?

[Undeniable Truth]

Ah, good old Oklahoma.

I live here, and it's not better or worse than anywhere else. I prefer beaches, though....so I'm not sure how much longer I'll stick around.

The state, as a generalization, has always been bipolar when it comes to political issues. On the federal level Oklahoma has a long history of voting Republican when it comes to Presidential elections, yet party line Democrat on the state and local levels. In fact, until recently both the state senate and house have been by and large Democratically controlled for most of a century.

And then...corruption within the Democratic party here caused a mini, state level revolution. It's a long story, but it's widely known here. A decades long history of straw donors, pocket lining, and illegal ties that even our current Governor (who vetoed this legislation only to be overridden, by the way) can't hide his involvement in. A "Good Old Boy" mentality kept the wheels of what is often referred to here as "The Little Dixie Mafia" turning.

Sad. Allowed by lemming voters for decades. But true.

Even worse (at the very least, just as bad...I haven't decided yet); it was decided that somehow the other party would be a better choice...and they turned the majority in both state branches within the last election or so for as mentioned, the first time in many, many decades. Backlash...or so they think.

To me this merely means that it's now the Republican Party's turn to slap the band-aids around for a while so their own "babies" will think their particular boo-boos are going to be all better now. It means that more government tax dollars will be wasted, as it'll all be overturned anyway. Current Bubba will then go crawling back to his little ones and say "Hey, at least I put the band-aid on it and lookyyyy...I have more! Vote for me so Other Bubba doesn't take the band-aids away again!"

Today it's abortion here. Yesterday we took our shot at immigration, which got all tied up in the courts too. There's no amazement there.

I've tried the whole "Dudes, your boo-boos have gangrene and your fucking legs are about to fall off!" thing to no avail for a really long time.

I'm really fucking jaded. I fully admit it. When I do make my way to the beach, I'll be yelling it in a different state.

[MichaelJCheaney]

I am SOOOOOO going to catch crap for this but bring it on......

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that the same people who are for a womans right to abort a baby on demand, are also the ones who will fight so hard to abolish the death penalty?

[Athena]

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that the same people who are for a womans right to abort a baby on demand, are also the ones who will fight so hard to abolish the death penalty?

That's such a simplistic way to look at it. It's no different than a liberal finding it ironic that those who fight so hard to end abortion are typically pro war.

Apples and oranges.

I'm pro-choice because I find it contrary to the idea of personal freedom to force unwilling women to incubate fetuses. I'm anti-capital punishment because it is an expensive, ineffective and inaccurate program.

See? Apples and oranges.

[Mare]

Only in Iowa:

Instead of building a border fence to help stem illegal immigration, the U.S. government should implant microchips into immigrants before deportation, much like what is done with pets, Pat Bertroche, an Urbandale physician and one of seven Republicans running in the 3rd District Congressional primary, said Monday. While speaking at a Tama County Republican forum, Bertroche made it clear that he wasn’t joking when he suggested treating undocumented immigrants like pets.

http://iowaindependent.com/32926/ins...candidate-says

[Undeniable Truth]

I am SOOOOOO going to catch crap for this but bring it on......

Am I the only one that finds it ironic that the same people who are for a womans right to abort a baby on demand, are also the ones who will fight so hard to abolish the death penalty?

I, personally, would like to see the death penalty maintained. I don't believe that the problem is with the penalty itself. It's everything leading up to that point that needs to be eyed. Focusing on the penalty itself...much like focusing on the legality of abortion...., in my opinion, is falling prey to another red herring.

An argument for a different thread, perhaps.

[MichaelJCheaney]

Ultimately I don't know that I can see the Arizona laws passing constitutional muster.

However one thing that it will do is spark a debate yet again on the societal costs of ILLEGAL immigration.

After all, if the Feds can't muster the intestinal fortitude to deal with the problem, and lets face it a billion dollar virtual fence is not going to solve the problem,than why is it so wrong for the states that are most directly affected by ILLEGAL immigration to attempt to do something about it?

[AngelFire]

Only in Iowa:


http://iowaindependent.com/32926/ins...candidate-says

I find that to be offensive as all hell. They are not animals, they are human biengs born in a different part of the world.

[cubby]

Not really, just trying to response to something I thought needed a response from someone born and raised in the Deep South.

Knowing that you really are just trying to jumpstart a debate on the issue of illegal immigrants, whether it be good, bad or indifferent. Also, being a fair minded person, semi-intelligent person, I realize that you were talking about Arizona, since Arizona is in the southern half of the U.S. But that is not what you said, what you said was, "...no doubt they're sounthern." Every class I've ever had the honor to attend in school has identified Georgia as being south of the Mason-Dixon line. You also referenced Alabama and their single language driver license test. Georgia and Alabama are next door naeighbors, so I felt safe in assuming that you were including all of the southern U.S. in your sweeping statements.

Georgia also has a few immigrants, legal and illegal, some small communities now have become predominantly hispanic. I don't at this point know whether this legislation has been considered but I'm sure it's on it's way since Arizona has started this ball a-rolling.

I don't really see this passing. But that doesn't say anything about whether or not I think It's a good or bad legislation. I think the federal government should take more of an active role in keeping out the illegals and let the states get back to running their own states.

But, of course, that is just my opinion.

[Athena]

Ultimately I don't know that I can see the Arizona laws passing constitutional muster.

However one thing that it will do is spark a debate yet again on the societal costs of ILLEGAL immigration.

After all, if the Feds can't muster the intestinal fortitude to deal with the problem, and lets face it a billion dollar virtual fence is not going to solve the problem,than why is it so wrong for the states that are most directly affected by ILLEGAL immigration to attempt to do something about it?

You know what the biggest cost associated with illegal immigration is, though? Enforcement. If we adopted a more open border policy, we wouldn't have to spend nearly as much rounding them up, detaining them and shipping them back.

By and large, people don't want to cross the border illegally. It's dangerous, often times expensive, uncomfortable and intensely stressful. Many of them feel they have no other choice, though, because America's immigration process is unnecessarily difficult and time-consuming.

Outside of that, the costs associated with illegal immigration are debatable. By many estimates, they pay more in taxes at the state and federal level than they take from social welfare programs (many of which they can't access because of their fake social security numbers). So, we may actually be making money on illegal immigration when looked at as a whole. And that's not even taking into account the benefit they provide to businesses who use their services at a lower rate of pay.

And crime? Illegal immigrants (and immigrants in general) are associated with lower crime rates than Americans. AZ's claims that illegal immigration is causing crime there are disingenuous. AZ's crime rate has been dropping faster than the national average.

So, yeah... When the cost issue is viewed objectively, it's really not a compelling argument.

It's all about our fear of brown people.

[Pete Bondurant]

This country was founded my immigrants. I guess it's a tough subject. Our ancestors came here for a better life, and I guess, why can't we give others the same?

We can give people a better life. They can come to this country. They can participate in the American dream. In fact, thousands of people do this every year.....legally. This law in Arizona concerns people who are in the U.S. illegally.

[Twisted]

We can give people a better life. They can come to this country. They can participate in the American dream. In fact, thousands of people do this every year.....legally. This law in Arizona concerns people who are in the U.S. illegally.

Generally true, and I think you'd see a different reaction if there were a way to keep the focus that narrow. However, it is nearly impossible to say someone is illegal just by looking at them, and if you do look at them to determine that, but are leaving out race, what factors could give them away as being here illegally?

[MichaelJCheaney]

You know what the biggest cost associated with illegal immigration is, though? Enforcement. If we adopted a more open border policy, we wouldn't have to spend nearly as much rounding them up, detaining them and shipping them back.

By and large, people don't want to cross the border illegally. It's dangerous, often times expensive, uncomfortable and intensely stressful. Many of them feel they have no other choice, though, because America's immigration process is unnecessarily difficult and time-consuming.

Outside of that, the costs associated with illegal immigration are debatable. By many estimates, they pay more in taxes at the state and federal level than they take from social welfare programs (many of which they can't access because of their fake social security numbers). So, we may actually be making money on illegal immigration when looked at as a whole. And that's not even taking into account the benefit they provide to businesses who use their services at a lower rate of pay.

And crime? Illegal immigrants (and immigrants in general) are associated with lower crime rates than Americans. AZ's claims that illegal immigration is causing crime there are disingenuous. AZ's crime rate has been dropping faster than the national average.

So, yeah... When the cost issue is viewed objectively, it's really not a compelling argument.

It's all about our fear of brown people.

I don't really see that as being a compelling argument either Athena.

After all, if you replace the words "Illegal Immigrants" with "Taxes" or Marijuana, or any other word that conjures up a negative meaning, you could make the same argument.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

The Arizona governor has signed a bill that changes the new AZ immigration law. Now police can ask for documents only while enforcing some other law or ordinance. Critics say this still will not stop racial profiling. Fears from critics are that there could be a lot of stops for minor things that are usually overlooked just because a driver is "brown". I tend to agree with that and am not sure how it could be combated.

I actually assumed that this is how it was done currently. I've had to provide ID for every "crime" I've been involved in - whether or not I was eventually charged with an offense.

The new law also makes it a state crime to live in or travel through Arizona illegally. And it targets those who hire illegal immigrant day laborers or knowingly transport them.
[...]

Defenders of the law -- angry over the charges of racism permeating the debate -- say it is needed because the federal government has failed to enforce border security with Mexico, allowing hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants to move into in the state.

"Illegal is illegal," Arizona state Sen. Russell Pearce, the controversial statute's primary sponsor, told CNN Friday. "Illegal's not a race, it's a crime. ... And in Arizona, we're going to enforce" the law.
[...]

"It goes back to the federal government," Martinez told CNN. "If they abdicate their responsibility, they leave state and local governments to grapple with this issue, and the only thing that happens is that we create greater chaos. ... This is just not the way forward."

http://edition.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS...n.law.changes/

Federal law:

Every alien, eighteen years of age and over, shall at all times carry with him and have in his personal possession any certificate of alien registration or alien registration receipt card issued to him pursuant to subsection (d) of this section. Any alien who fails to comply with the provisions of this subsection shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and shall upon conviction for each offense be fined not to exceed $100 or be imprisoned not more than thirty days, or both.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/ht...4----000-.html

Should Arizona have to enforce federal law that is largely ignored? What is the point of the federal law? (As an American, if I travel anywhere else in the world, I would have to produce my "papers". Probably get deported from Canada if I don't have 'em.)

I feel for the predicament AZ finds itself in and am not sure what can be done. Personally, I think many of the problems that concern AZ residents (like being #2 in the world for kidnapping behind Mexico City) are tied to drug people that happen to also be illegal immigrants. Those people are not scared of any law that gets enacted.

[MC30]

for some reason i don't consider Arizona or Kansas the south...maybe Oklahoma...those are more midwest imo. what i consider the south:http://www.sonofthesouth.net/slavery...dixon-line.htm
and i have no clue about the site it came from...just for the map.

[Undeniable Truth]

Here in Oklahoma, the state has its own immigration law. Three years ago lawmakers passed house bill 1804. It makes it illegal to knowingly transport illegal immigrants and makes it tougher to hire them.

Last February after a legal battle, parts of that law became enforceable. The state can now force businesses to cross-check employees against a federal database.

Some lawmakers want to expand on the law already in place, making it tougher than Arizona's. And that has some people fired up.

"Oklahomans have had enough of the unregulated invasion of our country by illegals," said Republican state representative Rex Duncan. Duncan is among a handful of lawmakers working on a new bill.

"We're taking some strong steps Oklahomans are demanding, and they'll be well supported and received."

The proposal he's working on includes confiscating cars driven by illegal immigrants if they're caught without a valid license. And tougher penalties for those who support human trafficking.

http://www.kjrh.com/news/local/story...A.cspx?rss=701

[MichaelJCheaney]

You know what the biggest cost associated with illegal immigration is, though? Enforcement. If we adopted a more open border policy, we wouldn't have to spend nearly as much rounding them up, detaining them and shipping them back.

It seems to me this argument could be made about ANY law. Take taxes for example. The biggest cost comes with enforcing compliance with the tax laws and the audits are time consuming, and I am sure that the cost/benefit ratio is rather high.

Or traffic tickets.

You have the man hours involved in making the stop, writing the ticket, the lost productivity time, when perhaps the time could be spent investigating something else.

My point being expense could be used to justify taking off the books that people disagree with.

And crime? Illegal immigrants (and immigrants in general) are associated with lower crime rates than Americans. AZ's claims that illegal immigration is causing crime there are disingenuous. AZ's crime rate has been dropping faster than the national average.

Here your lumping LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigrants together, merely by using the words immigrants in general. And personally don't buy the notion that illegal immigrants are associated with lower crime rates, merely because the second that they crossed that border, they committed a crime, and that would not show up in any crime statistic that the Feds keep.

It is entirely possible that Illegal immigration in and of itself is not causing a spike in crime in any state, but that the Illegal immigrants are committing the crimes.

Outside of that, the costs associated with illegal immigration are debatable. By many estimates, they pay more in taxes at the state and federal level than they take from social welfare programs (many of which they can't access because of their fake social security numbers).

I do believe that by them having a fake Social Security number that IS a crime. Its called Fraud!!! -If I was using YOUR Social Security number and got caught, I would be prosecuted for!

[Athena]

It seems to me this argument could be made about ANY law. Take taxes for example. The biggest cost comes with enforcing compliance with the tax laws and the audits are time consuming, and I am sure that the cost/benefit ratio is rather high.

Or traffic tickets.

You have the man hours involved in making the stop, writing the ticket, the lost productivity time, when perhaps the time could be spent investigating something else.

My point being expense could be used to justify taking off the books that people disagree with.

Yes - cost should always be a consideration and can be used to justify doing away with laws that people disagree with. That has been the main argument in support of decriminalizing marijuana. It costs jurisdictions millions to prosecute annually, but what good does it do us?

This is why many states don't bother to heavily enforce immigration. It costs more than we can benefit from it.

Here your lumping LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigrants together, merely by using the words immigrants in general. And personally don't buy the notion that illegal immigrants are associated with lower crime rates, merely because the second that they crossed that border, they committed a crime, and that would not show up in any crime statistic that the Feds keep.

It is entirely possible that Illegal immigration in and of itself is not causing a spike in crime in any state, but that the Illegal immigrants are committing the crimes.

Yes, I'm lumping all immigrants together, because studies on the subject conclude that illegal immigrants are no more prone to crime, on average, than their legal counterparts. Both factions are less prone to crime than Americans born here.

And of course we're not talking "technical" crimes like hopping the border or using a fake social security card. We're talking violent crimes or crimes with victims. To judge them by "technical" crimes would be like calling you a career criminal because you speed or forget to use your blinkers daily.

I do believe that by them having a fake Social Security number that IS a crime. Its called Fraud!!! -If I was using YOUR Social Security number and got caught, I would be prosecuted for!

We're not talking identity theft. These people are using unclaimed SS numbers inthe vast majority of cases.

[Echo]

Go ahead.....kick all of the illegal immigrants out of this country and then sit back and watch our economy CRASH.

A Day Without A Mexican

Great movie. Some should watch it........

[Echo]

'Latinos take $3 billion in social services and don't pay any taxes.' Turns out it's a big lie. There was $100 billion, we figured out, was what the Latinos were contributing to the economy of the State of California..."

* Guatemalans and Hondurans are not Mexicans
* There are 40 countries south of the border
* 20% of California K-12 teachers are Hispanic

* Every Hispanic on the West Coast is presumed to be Mexican
* Agriculture is California's #1 industry... not Hollywood

This is true. See: California Section 5: Economy.

* Texas, California, Arizona, New Mexico, Colorado
, Utah, Wyoming, and Nevada used to be part of Mexico
* The wall is 12 ft high recycled Gulf War landing plates

Some facts that were displayed on screen throughout the film.

[MichaelJCheaney]

A Day Without A Mexican......

We have that already.

Every May 1st, because they are all out protesting how horribly they are being treated in America......

[MichaelJCheaney]

* Guatemalans and Hondurans are not Mexicans
* There are 40 countries south of the border
* 20% of California K-12 teachers are Hispanic
* Every Hispanic on the West Coast is presumed to be Mexican
* Agriculture is California's #1 industry... not Hollywood

Yes there are 40 countries South of the Border but logistically speaking the odds of people trekking thru Mexico to get to the United States are pretty slim....(I am not saying it isn't done though IMO)

EVERY Hispanic is presumed to be Mexican?

That seems like an awful big claim for the movie makers to make.....a Large Majority would have been a better claim for them to make.

I would love to meet the dumbasses that think Hollywood is Cali's biggest industry though, just so I can laugh hysterically at them.....

[Echo]

We have that already.

Every May 1st, because they are all out protesting how horribly they are being treated in America......

Honestly though, California AND New York's economy would crash without illegal workers and that would trickle down to everyone else.

People don't understand what they are asking for here. How about 7 dollars for a tomato? When illegal migrant workers can no longer be here, and be underpaid and taken advantage of....they will have to REALLY pay legal people to pick the fruit and veg.

Also, I would like to remind everyone that we are the melting pot, and we are a country that was BUILT BY IMMIGRANTS. Legal AND Illegal.

Unless you are Native American you did not come from here. ............an immigrant migrated here and so on and so forth


And then there is this:

'Latinos take $3 billion in social services and don't pay any taxes.' Turns out it's a big lie. There was $100 billion, we figured out, was what the Latinos were contributing to the economy of the State of California..."

Sounds like a pretty sweet deal for California to me.