Spanking Creates Bullies?

[Athena]

So, new research has come out slamming a popular form of discipline. In short, it has linked excessive spanking with aggressive behavior. Now, what's "excessive", exactly? According to this research, it's more than twice a month.

More than half of the nearly 2,500 kids had been spanked in the month before the interview. And those who had been swatted more than twice at age three had twice as high odds of being highly aggressive at age five. Even after accounting for baseline differences in aggression and other factors -- for instance, psychological maltreatment, maternal depression and substance abuse -- the odds remained increased.

Although the researchers based their findings on what mothers told them, they echo the data behind anti-spanking recommendations by several professional societies, including the American Academy of Pediatrics and the American Psychological Association.

Source

I've always been in favor of spanking. Not the action, necessarily, but the ability of parents to be able to use the threat of spanking to enforce other, non-physical discipline. When I heard that a California jurisdiction outlawed the practice as an extension of child abuse, I was horrified. That said...

Now that this study has come out, does it change your opinion of this popular form of discipline?

[TwiztidAngel]

i can belive that kids dont need spankings like that...my kids would go months even years without a spanking...thats only cuz i use it as a last resort to major offenses

regular spankings can cause aggression...if thats all they know how to resolve things how do you think their gonna handle it outside the home?

[moonlilly1981]

Creating bullies? Yeah I dont think so. I dont see how a child who gets a swat on the bum every now and again can "turn" out to be a bully because of it. Most behaviors are learned. If you teach your child kindness by being kind then more then not your child turns out to be a kind person. If you bully your child then your child will turn around and then bully others. Then you have to factor in things like personality.

I have and do use spanking as a tool to disapline my children when needed. My daughter is mellow and laid back for the most part ( although lately shes eight going on eighteen ) and my son is more aggressive.

Bottom line I think a simple swat on the bottom combined with time outs and talks can be effective. Its not everyone's cup of tea but why should anyone tell me how to raise my child? A swat on the behind is not abuse.

[TwiztidAngel]

i think theyre referring to over zealous spanking...not "swats on the rump"

[Twisted]

I have to agree with Twiztid, in some sort of parallelism that seems almost creepy. Like agreeing with a copy of me.

Anyway, I was spanked fairly regularly, hell more than once it went beyond that and I don't disagree with my parents about whether I deserved it.

That said, I did not become a bully. In fact, I was a rather timid pacifist, and generally let people beat on me without retaliation. Never saw a point entering into a fight I'd inevitably lose.

[Dneilz]

I've been spanked. Couple pretty good ones. The use of belts and "the board of education" has met my ass many times. I have never been a bully. In fact, I always protected those being bullied. I would be the first one to jump up and yell the positive points about a person.

BUT.... there was a point where I put my mother and her physical punishment in her place. I hate to admit, but she tried hitting me when I was 15 and ya know what.... I hit her back. She pulled my hair, I pulled hers. I never lashed out at my innocent peers, but you bet your ass I put the stop to my mom's physical means of correction.

It wasn't the amount of spanking that she did... it was the fact that I KNEW she was hitting out of anger. I knew that she was intending to hurt me because she was mad at me. The welts on my lower back told the story of how I squirmed to get away.

She is a reformed spanker now. She would be horified if she had to sit and watch home movies of what she has done to us (she had four kids) and how she wasn't spanking with control. A swat on the ass, maybe two is understandable. But four to ten swings of a belt, that leaves welts is not.

So... now that I have established that I didn't get spanked twice a month, but when I got my butt spanked it was pretty harsh. I can say the only person I lashed out at was the person with the belt or board (or hairbrush is my sisters case)

I am cool with spanking, but if you're going to spank... take a time out and do it out of love and correction. Don't do it out of anger because your children will grow up knowing that all those spankings were really about their parent's inability to funnel anger in a positive way.

This is just my input. My opinion based on my experience.

No... I don't think spankings (and I am not talking the beating type) make a bully. Uninvolved parents.... perhaps.

[TwiztidAngel]

it was the fact that I KNEW she was hitting out of anger.

BINGO! you got out a thought i wasnt able to articulate right!

i never hit my kids when angry...i always calmed down and came back later...except the time jer ran into the road...he got it right then

[moonlilly1981]

I agree never hit when angry and never hit with an object other then your hand. Those are my rules. My mother also hit me alot until I was big enough to fight back. Even after social services came out cause I went to school covered in visable bruises. I love my mother dont get me wrong, and im not a bully in the least. Even my father tried to force her to stop. She just went behind his back and did it. Another bully tactic that thankfully I did not inherit.

[Pete Bondurant]

Now that I think of it.....the old man did give me quite a thrashing from time to time......can't say I didn't deserve it though....boys will be boys and all that.

[Undeniable Truth]

When I was growing up it was nothing to get your ass lit up in the middle of, say, the grocery store. Onlookers not only didn't mind, they were liable to cheer your Mom on when she did it. You know...back when you didn't fuck with the teacher because you knew she already had explicit written permission to paddle that hind.

I also know for a fact that I'd, likely on more than one occasion, been spanked more than twice in a one month period. Even as a child I knew there was a difference between being spanked and being beaten or abused. A bully I am not. I highly doubt that I'm an exception to the article's "rule", either.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I did a study and determined 100% of people who eat carrots will die. All other variables were eliminated or equalized. It's the carrots.

[Undeniable Truth]

OMG. My study showed that 100% of people who do not eat carrots die. WTH?

Despite the opinion of professional societies, surveys show that as many as 90 percent of parents spank their children.

We're doomed, people! Doomed I say!

[Mystica43229]

Hell, I was whipped with a belt once because I was too close to the busy country road we lived on (People sped all of the time) and I didn't get close to the road again. That was the only time. But I turned out a good person and I believe spanking is usually needed. I'm not talking about beating a kid, but a nice hand to the butt cheek is what a kid needs sometimes. I don't think timeouts work- it never did for my little brother.
Anyway, what has happened to our society? Back in the day, your neighbors and teachers were allowed to whip your ass if you got out of line!! Now, if someone sees you spanking your kid, they call you in! It is outrageous! I don't know about you, but (when I have children) if they act up, I'm spanking their ass whether it's in a grocery store parking lot, etc or at home. People need to stop being pansies knowadays.

[Silvahalo]

Well any form of over zealous physical punishment is inherently not a good thing, IMO. Whether one spanks, swats, smacks and I've seen all of them used as corporal punishment, one has to ask am I really disciplining or hitting out of anger? The act in using aggression to discipline a child relays the wrong message. Don't hit your brother! *smack*

Now this is not the same as a harmless swat on the butt as to usher a child in a action/inaction or reminding a child of a rule.

Does it cause a child to be a bully? maybe. Depends mostly I think on other factors. Family dynamics, parent child relations, home stability, and the child's personality. My son's best friend, the next door neighbor kid, 6yo, has been disciplined with a wooden paddle for years apparently. Does he listen better than my son does as he does not get spanked with a wooden paddle? yeah, actually kid next door does listen better. BUT, he seems to comply based on fear.

"Causality is extremely difficult to prove," Taylor told Reuters Health. Still, she added, "the evidence is at a point where we want to encourage parents to use techniques other than spanking that can actually lower children's risk for being more aggressive."

Sure a healthy does of fear coming from an authority figure, IMO, isn't a bad thing, but when I child is called upon by fear almost all the time to comply or modify his behavior it becomes problematic. I see the neighbor kid showing early signs of being a bully. He uses coercive tactics, fear, domination and intimidation often to get what he wants from my son. It is worrisome as this is my son's closest friend and he is being influenced by him.

"Children need guidance and discipline," said Taylor. "However, parents should focus on positive, non-physical forms of discipline and avoid the use of spanking.

Misdirection and simply talking thru a problem I have found works very well with my 6 yo. I have used swatting at times but has really done nothing but upset my child emotionally and that's just counter productive. And as the experts have said there is a direct relation with spanking and aggression in children, I think it best to keep it to a minimal, an absolute last resort if you choose to use it.

[malq]

Lame study.
I doubt there is any evidence that spanking, even excessively will make a bully out of someone. It will work one of two ways. The kid will be s submissive twat and conform to all rules for fear of a whooping, or he will rebel and become a problem child which at that point the parents should resort to another method. At that point he is being subjected to abuse. When that line is crossed it is a whole different ball game. You are talking about systematic abuse which leads to much deeper shit. you change his psyche. More than likely he will carry the trait to his kids and be a spanker as well.

Not condoning or applauding spankings. It's a personal choice.
A few spankings will never hurt anything done properly. Personally, I got spanked occasionally and got the belt 3 times. NOTE I deserved it each time! However, I have never had to lay a hand on my kids. I convey my displeasure other way easily.

Making a bully out of someone? nah that's a power trip and dominance issue. The punishment is not the problem rather the reason the child is being punished.

I know a lot of well behaved adjusted people that have been spanked as kids. It was generational thing. It didn't create bullies, most just accepted it as a deterrent for not doing that again.

Bullies are a necessary evil in society by the way as much as you guys cry about bullying. They strengthen character and bring out qualities in you at an earthly age that prepare you for real life situations. Life is not fair and just. There is no bubble that does not get burst. The sooner people realize that the better rounded they are. This notion to eradicate bullies is crazy. It's like you get rid of ants and the flies take over.

[Dneilz]

When my brother was going to get a spanking and I would hear my mom scream, "move your hands" my sisters and I would run down to the corner of the block in effort to not hear him scream and cry. That woman may have been 1/4 inch from being a 'midget or little person' but her spankings were like dynamite in the pants! You didn't cross that woman, especially at church.

He was never a bully either, and he got the worst of the spankings..... he was always doing something. Set a forest on fire playing with matches, caught with a lighter again, took my mom's steering wheel apart in her car (he is a mechanic now)...etc. He was a curious ADHD boy. :)

I once got caught with a rubix cube at church (we were raised Catholic) and my mom grabbed me by the ear and whispered ever so softly... "when we get home you are getting the belt".... I was looking at the exits knowing full well I was in big trouble. Got home and sure as shit, soon as everyone was in the house and settled I was ordered to my room. Once there it was the same old thing, "pull your pants down and remove your hands".... by the time she was done my ass was fire engine red. My hands had welts from the automatic response of trying to cover my ass. If you covered your ass, you just got more swings of the belt. That time though, I caught the belt with my hand, held it up and looked at her. I was ready to swing back. I really was. But I didn't. It was a moment of silence. I gave her the belt and she left.

We didn't talk for days. I stayed away from her.

A few years ago I talked to her about that belt and she asked me if I wanted it. I said yes. It was burned up in a bon fire that night.... I forgive her. She had a lot on her plate, but she definitely was one of those parents that just took things beyond punishment of a broken rule.

By the way... I never took that rubix cube to church again.

[CPL CHUD]

My dad used to spank me if I was out of line then make me stand in a corner and not say anything for hours. He stopped doing that by the time my brother and sister came around.

I'm 30 years old now and I might have been more aggressive in school while I was growing up, but my brother and sister still live with my parents and still do not listen to them, throw tantrums, and are generally spoiled brats well into their 20's. I think I'd rather spank a kid and run the risk of creating a bully (even though I wasn't a bully at all, just got in fights with a lot of kids) than have to deal with a bunch of kids that don't listen to me and end up burdening me with their crap for the rest of my life.

[TwiztidAngel]

My dad used to spank me if I was out of line then make me stand in a corner and not say anything for hours.

well no wonder you were a lil more aggressive he used TWO methods on you at once...i'd be a bit pissed myself

[MadmamainNC]

So what do they suppose people do? If a child is naughty enough to require more than 2 spankings a month, hop him/her up on meds and make a big stink out of it?

Spankings delivered in the wrong method can and will produce issues within any child be it aggressive behavior (passive or otherwise) or fear of others, but we're talking abusive spankings. The kind that's done with anger behind the blow and excessive force.

I feel our children are growing up without consequence and generally we have a spoiled bunch of self-serving ass-wipes filling the school yard, doing whatever they want -to who ever they want. Kids know full and well that parents can be turned in for discipline. Hell, we have one asstard on here suing his mother for breech of privacy over his FB account.

This is what happens when we take the rights away from parents.

Spare the Rod Spoil the Child doesn't mean you should whip them with the nearest baseball bat but use your brain and know that sitting them in the happy chair isn't going to teach them anything.

[Athena]

Some things that appear to have been overlooked:

1.) The study said "spankings", not "beatings" or "child abuse". I would imagine this involves your standard swat. It is you hitting a child for disciplinary purposes, but not hard enough to cause injury. That is, I believe, the definition of a spanking used by the study.

2.) The study controlled for things like home situation and personality. They are quite literally stating that, when all else is considered, kids spanked regularly are substantially likely to become aggressive as they age.

3.) "Substantially more likely" does not mean "everyone". As a result, "I was spanked and didn't turn into a bully," is not a valid rebuttal.

Like Moonlilly pointed out, lots of behavior is learned. Is it not reasonable to think that, if you hit your child for doing something you've said not to do, they may turn around and do the same thing?

So what do they suppose people do? If a child is naughty enough to require more than 2 spankings a month, hop him/her up on meds and make a big stink out of it?

I'm of the opinion that spanking should be a last resort, or used in situations where behavior needs to be immediately corrected, like when a child poses safety risks to himself or others. So, I would say that if a child requires more than two spankings a month, the parent is probably doing something wrong on a broader scale.

And I'm not sure that the condition of children these days can be attributed to parents having their rights taken away. Spanking is still legal in the vast majority of the country.

The trick to discipline is consistency, no matter what form of discipline a parent employs. I would suspect a lack of consistency is the culprit, coupled with over-indulgence (kids are spoiled to a greater degree these days than in generations past, I would wager).

[TheMeaningOfItAll]

The trick to discipline is consistency, no matter what form of discipline a parent employs. I would suspect a lack of consistency is the culprit, coupled with over-indulgence (kids are spoiled to a greater degree these days than in generations past, I would wager).

Right on. I have a friend whose children are absolute nightmares. They will probably end up in jail some day...and I firmly believe it is because she isn't consistent. One day she yells, one day she threatens but doesn't follow up, one day she spanks. The kids don't take her seriously. In my opinion, kids need firm boundaries and the knowledge that you will follow through with punishments.

I don't think the study can take into account the personality of the child. For instance--Perhaps the children that are getting spanked have personalities that are pre-wired to be bullies (for lack of a better word). They may be more defiant, take more risks, etc. than a child that isn't wired that way. Example: Our oldest child is a rule-follower. When she does something that requires punishment, which is rare, the mere idea of our disappointment and a time out are good enough deterrents for her. Our second child...Well, she has all those characteristics that will be great in an adult, but are trying in a child. She's stubborn, risky, argumentative, has no fear, etc. She could care less if I am disappointed in her. Time-outs and/or loss of toys are what deter her behavior. So, what I am getting at, is that other parents may have kids like our second, and may spank that child more due to frustration/lack of education/etc. The spanking may not necessarily cause the child to be a bully--they may already be programmed to be that way. Or maybe the spanking "trips a trigger" so to speak. Do I make sense?

[Athena]

Right on. I have a friend whose children are absolute nightmares. They will probably end up in jail some day...and I firmly believe it is because she isn't consistent. One day she yells, one day she threatens but doesn't follow up, one day she spanks. The kids don't take her seriously. In my opinion, kids need firm boundaries and the knowledge that you will follow through with punishments.

Oh, absolutely. Kids must need to know what the rules are and what happens when a rule is broken before they ever break it. Once you've laid down those guidelines, they must be followed, or, like you said, kids lose all respect for their parents.

It's really no different than the workplace. If you're told that no-show-no-calls result in a one-day, unpaid suspension, but they only actually enforce that about 50% of the time, you're more likely to push your luck than if the suspension was guaranteed. Chronic inconsistancy will likely get you frustrated and resentful toward the company, driving you to act out or quit. Kids are just little adults in this respect. They deserve the same level of professionalism that we do at our jobs.

I don't think the study can take into account the personality of the child. For instance--Perhaps the children that are getting spanked have personalities that are pre-wired to be bullies (for lack of a better word). They may be more defiant, take more risks, etc. than a child that isn't wired that way. Example: Our oldest child is a rule-follower. When she does something that requires punishment, which is rare, the mere idea of our disappointment and a time out are good enough deterrents for her. Our second child...Well, she has all those characteristics that will be great in an adult, but are trying in a child. She's stubborn, risky, argumentative, has no fear, etc. She could care less if I am disappointed in her. Time-outs and/or loss of toys are what deter her behavior. So, what I am getting at, is that other parents may have kids like our second, and may spank that child more due to frustration/lack of education/etc. The spanking may not necessarily cause the child to be a bully--they may already be programmed to be that way. Or maybe the spanking "trips a trigger" so to speak. Do I make sense?

A few years ago, I ran across an old baby book my parents put together for me. In it, at just 6 months or so, my father described me as "stoic, yet jovial". To this day, that description fits me like a glove. You see, personalities are established very quickly, for the most part. Kids who are going to be aggressive at 5 no matter what they do are likely already aggressive at 3. That's what they mean by controlling for personality... they take into consideration children that are already aggressive at the start of the study.

As for tripping a trigger, yes, I believe much of our behavior is hardwired in that we have inherent tendencies, some that can be "tripped". So... why do something that is likely to trip such a trigger? Whether the spankings create aggressiveness or exploit some underlying tendency for aggressiveness that may never have been tripped otherwise, isn't the result the same? In essence, the spankings caused the aggressiveness?

[Tundratot]

How do you control for "baseline differences and other factors"? And, how do we know the findings shouldn't be interpreted as "bullies were harder to raise and required more frequent discipline"?

Sometimes I wonder at the popular scientific studies we are quoted so often. My least favorite is the "gateway drug" hypothesis. I am not an advocate of smoking, but to say that tobacco is a gateway drug leading to more dangerous drug usage is just pointless. Or cannibis or alcohol. It's as meaningful as saying that lactose is a gateway drug.

[Aslan]

Creates bullies?

Oh I don't think so.

You aren't so quick to judge others or cheer the beating of a lesser when at some point you have known the feeling of being that 'lesser'.
I'm not against spankings and I guess I don't understand how people can 'walk away and return to spank their child when they aren't upset'.
When my dog poops on the floor I discipline him immediately. I don't sit him in a corner and expect him to 'think about what he did'.
I understand that children and dogs are different as far as realizing and rationalization, but if you want to correct wrong behavior, isn't it better if you do it as soon as you spot it?
If my child ran into traffic or was sitting there about to stick a fork into a light socket, I'm not sure I'd be all "Mommy is very upset with you and we will deal with this in 20 minutes" as if they were little business executives with the life experience to understand.
I always hated "Wait til we get home' threats. I was all "No, pull the car over now please" The waiting was worse than the punishment.

rambling, sorry

[TheMeaningOfItAll]

I'm not against spankings and I guess I don't understand how people can 'walk away and return to spank their child when they aren't upset'.

I know what you mean. I think a lot of people say they aren't spanking when upset, but in reality, it's a spur of the moment thing bent out of frustration. I also agree that punishment needs to come immediately. I have left stores, restaurants, parks, when I've given the kids a warning and they don't stop. That has happened maybe once per child for them to understand I mean what I say and say what I mean.

As for tripping a trigger, yes, I believe much of our behavior is hardwired in that we have inherent tendencies, some that can be "tripped". So... why do something that is likely to trip such a trigger? Whether the spankings create aggressiveness or exploit some underlying tendency for aggressiveness that may never have been tripped otherwise, isn't the result the same? In essence, the spankings caused the aggressiveness?

We don't spank in our house but I have several friends that do and they see no problem with it. I think there are several factors that play into people spanking. Frustration being a big one. I also think that lack of education (for example--other cooling down and punishment techniques, parenting classes) can contribute to spanking. Past experiences may play a role--"I was spanked and it didn't hurt me." For some, I believe it is a quick fix--spank the kid and move on with your day. I don't think a lot of people are in tune enough with their kids to recognize that the spanking may be shaping their behavior in a negative way.

[Waldowas]

Hm, personally I have to say I prefer those types of spanking where the spankee asks more!