NY Cops Acquited - Excessive Force or Not?

[Athena]

Article

Sean Bell was gunned down, shot at 50 times, after his last-minute bachelor party at Kalua Caberet on Nov. 25, 2006. Cops who were investigating prostitution at the club responded with force under the belief that the victim and his friends were going to their car to retrieve a gun after an altercation with another patron. One officer unloaded his gun, reloaded and, again, emptied his clip at the trio of young men. All three were wounded, but only two lived to speak of it. Once the firestorm had ceased, it became apparent that they were not going to the car to get a gun, as there was no gun present.

We've heard the practically cliche story plenty of times, now. Young, black, unarmed men gunned down savagely by white police officers. The race card is always pulled. This time is a little different, however. Two of the policemen involved in the shooting were black themselves. This fact brings into focus the real question, the one we should have been asking all along: What qualifies as excessive force?

The judge who decided this case said that "The People have not proved beyond a reasonable doubt that each defendant was not justified" in shooting. Perhaps they were justified in shooting. After all, they claimed to have heard one of the men say, "Yo, go get my gun" and, after being warned to stop, the men bumped two police vehicles (one unmarked) as they attempted to get away.

But, is the question solely, "Should they have fired?" Perhaps we should be asking, "Should they have fired so many goddamn times?" Because it's worth stating again, Officer Oliver fired his weapon until it was out of bullets, loaded another full clip, and continued to fire until that one was out of bullets, for a grand total of 31 spend rounds. His fellow officers fired 11 and four shots, respectively.

Their excuse was that they believed they were under fire. Surrounded by chaos with multiple officers firing, it's a reasonable error, to a point. However, Oliver fired twice the shots of the other two officers combined. Surely, he would have realized at some point that he was the only one firing. Did it matter, though?

While "were they justified [in shooting]" may have been the only consideration in the courtroom, Oliver's superiors and police chiefs everywhere have the responsibility to determine whether the extent was justified. Killing an unarmed man and wounding two others with a modest amount of shots is a tragedy not easily forgotten. But doing so in no less than 50 shots tears a hole in communities that is not quick to mend. Resentment and distrust of police officers are conditions every urban center in American suffers from. Actions like this ripple through the country, lending credence to the paranoia.

Perhaps Oliver's career, if not his freedom, should be sacrificed for the greater good.

[Pete Bondurant]

NY Cops Acquited - Excessive Force or Not?

NOT!


USE ALL NECESSARY FORCE!

[Athena]

50 rounds aimed at unarmed individuals is hardly "necessary", Mr. Bondurant. While some initial shots may have been justified (although I can't seem to understand why the cops didn't wait to see if the men were actually going to exit the car again after entering it), how does one justify such excessive firing?

Are you a gun owner, Mr. Bondurant? I spend some time down at the range with a .40 and, while two clips can go quickly with continuous fire, it's not exactly "a flash", so to speak.

I suppose I can only wonder what caused the officer to reload, as though the initial clip wasn't enough, especially considering that these men were unarmed.

[Pete Bondurant]

50 rounds aimed at unarmed individuals is hardly "necessary", Mr. Bondurant. While some initial shots may have been justified (although I can't seem to understand why the cops didn't wait to see if the men were actually going to exit the car again after entering it), how does one justify such excessive firing?

Are you a gun owner, Mr. Bondurant? I spend some time down at the range with a .40 and, while two clips can go quickly with continuous fire, it's not exactly "a flash", so to speak.

I suppose I can only wonder what caused the officer to reload, as though the initial clip wasn't enough, especially considering that these men were unarmed.

The only things these officers are guilty of...is...bad marksmanship.

[Fins]

50 rounds aimed at unarmed individuals is hardly "necessary", Mr. Bondurant. While some initial shots may have been justified (although I can't seem to understand why the cops didn't wait to see if the men were actually going to exit the car again after entering it), how does one justify such excessive firing?

Are you a gun owner, Mr. Bondurant? I spend some time down at the range with a .40 and, while two clips can go quickly with continuous fire, it's not exactly "a flash", so to speak.

I suppose I can only wonder what caused the officer to reload, as though the initial clip wasn't enough, especially considering that these men were unarmed.

You are thinking like a can popper and not like a trained law enforcment officer who is facing a threat. Cops are trained that when they are facing a threat to keep shooting until the threat is down. As long as the suspect is still up they are still a threat.

NY cops carry 15 + 1 capacity Glocks. And these can be unloaded in about 3 seconds. A trained and practiced officer can unload, reload, and unload again in probably 8 seconds. (A competitive shooter with a customized side arm could do it quicker) Then consider there were 3 cops it is surprising that there were only 50 shots fired.

When looking at the facts, it is by no way excessive force. However, one could possibly argue it as negligence. I have seen the facts as to why they thought the suspects were a threat.

In the end, the victims families will get several million out of the city just like Diallo's family did.

[Athena]

All those facts considered, I'm still not convinced that 31 shots from a single officer was necessary. And, if it wasn't necessary, it was excessive by its very nature.

When looking at the facts, it is by no way excessive force. However, one could possibly argue it as negligence. I have seen the facts as to why they thought the suspects were a threat.

You've seen facts as in, those not released to the public? Please, do share.

Considering the DA, who was presented with all the facts, thought it appropriate to charge them with, among other things, manslaughter, assault and reckless endangerment, I'd say you are wrong. You see, in relation to police officers, charges like manslaughter and assault under such circumstances imply excessive force. If negligence was the more appropriate charge, that's what they would have been charged with.

I would also like to note that the acquital only means that the prosecution failed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that the officers were unjustified. From the article:

Also, the officers, who had been on paid leave, still face possible departmental charges that could result in their firing. While the judge found that the officers' behavior was not criminal, he added, "Questions of carelessness and incompetence must be left to other forums."

Just to clarify my position, I am not asserting that these men should go to jail. In fact, Oliver assumes more responsibility than the others, in my opinion. I am simply asserting that, perhaps, Oliver is a liability for his department and should lose his job as a result. One can be incompetent without being criminally incompetent.

In the end, this incident further entrenches the general distrust of police in our urban areas. Paying millions to the victim's family does not even begin to impact that. Departments sheding themselves of troublesome officers might send a message.

[Morbid]

NY lost almost an average of 2 officers a month in 2007. That statistic coupled with the fact that these men did not comply with officers, even ramming a vehicle, is enough to justify lethal force in my opinion. Even more since this incident all began with the mentioning of a gun.

But that's just me. I feel that if you are unwilling to follow simple orders from a police officer...like "stop"....or "put your hands where I can see them"...well, I have little to no sympathy of the consequences. I am glad these officers were acquitted and I hope this incident does bring about change within that police department. Starting with more rigorous shooting range practice so the next time this happens, only one shot will be needed to stop an incident like this, and we will never hear a thing about it.

[sherrz]

Now while I'm all for the use of deadly force, I hardly think it was necessary for that police officer to shoot off 31 rounds. Especially when they weren't positive that they were armed. I think that verdict was a gross injustice. The police forces do need to set clearer guidelines on when deadly force is able to be authorized. Just because you thought you heard one of them say "I'm gonna get my gun!" (or whatever was said), doesn't necessitate deadly force. I know sometimes there's no time to react but they weren't even sure if that's what was said.

[Athena]

NY lost almost an average of 2 officers a month in 2007. That statistic coupled with the fact that these men did not comply with officers, even ramming a vehicle, is enough to justify lethal force in my opinion. Even more since this incident all began with the mentioning of a gun.

I can't seem to find any articles that state the exact circumstances. Still, I would be 100% behind them if, say, this car was headed toward them. Otherwise, when the threat has not been confirmed, the officers have the responsibility, in my opinion, to pursue non-lethal means of stopping the subjects. Shooting out the tires, for example. The fact of the matter is, police encounter far more obviously dangerous situations every day in this country without requiring 50+ rounds. Again, I agree with the judge's ruling, but I hope that the department launches an intense internal investigation. If they do, it sounds like they will find someone incompetent.

But that's just me. I feel that if you are unwilling to follow simple orders from a police officer...like "stop"....or "put your hands where I can see them"...well, I have little to no sympathy of the consequences. I am glad these officers were acquitted and I hope this incident does bring about change within that police department. Starting with more rigorous shooting range practice so the next time this happens, only one shot will be needed to stop an incident like this, and we will never hear a thing about it.

That's fair. My heart isn't exactly bleeding for the victims. They were stupid and reckless and certainly deserved consequence, although I'm not sure that a simple failure to heed officer warnings should constitute a death sentence. However, you're right - if they WERE justified, they should be trained well enough to not have to unload, reload then unload again. The number of shots fired is what makes this case so painful.

[CPL CHUD]

I'm surprised we don't hear more cases like this. These guys have a horrible job. I don't envy them a bit. Not to mention the danger they face, coupled with that fight or flight predatorial instinct that plays heavily into what they do; it's amazing to me that police officers are so restrained.

Plus the marksmanship record for the typical police officer in a situation like this is statistically very, very low. They usually don't take the time to aim, they fling bullets to stop the target and bring the situation to an end as quickly as possible. You've got to think of it like this; when they actually have to discharge their weapons then the shit has hit the fan, things have gone from bad to totally fucked. It's unpredictable, it's scary, and it's kind of to be expected.

[Fins]

You've seen facts as in, those not released to the public? Please, do share.

It doesnt require any secret facts. I already stated the facts, did the math, and explained how it is not excessive.

Considering the DA, who was presented with all the facts, thought it appropriate to charge them with, among other things, manslaughter, assault and reckless endangerment, I'd say you are wrong. You see, in relation to police officers, charges like manslaughter and assault under such circumstances imply excessive force. If negligence was the more appropriate charge, that's what they would have been charged with. .

DAs are politicians. In high profile cases it is common practice for them to file charges, even though the odds are the defendant will be aquitted, just to apease the voters. Especially in election years.

In the end, this incident further entrenches the general distrust of police in our urban areas. Paying millions to the victim's family does not even begin to impact that. Departments sheding themselves of troublesome officers might send a message.

Most cops are thugs on power trips. But thats another discussion

[Louis_Cyphre]

So, just curious - when's the last time NYC cops busted 30 or 50 or more into a white dude? Or, say, ass-raped one with a broom handle?

Yeah, I know - some of the cops in question are black. Doesn't matter, frankly, given that ALL the swiss-cheesed/ass-raped guys are.

Giuliani rules, baby.

[Morbid]

So, just curious - when's the last time NYC cops busted 30 or 50 or more into a white dude? Or, say, ass-raped one with a broom handle?

Yeah, I know - some of the cops in question are black. Doesn't matter, frankly, given that ALL the swiss-cheesed/ass-raped guys are.

Giuliani rules, baby.

Yeah, you are right! No white guy has ever been abused by a police officer in NYC! Damn, good point.

[Athena]

It doesnt require any secret facts. I already stated the facts, did the math, and explained how it is not excessive.

You said you've "seen the facts as to why they thought the suspects were a threat". That has little, if nothing to do with "excessive". If they were facts other than those that were presented in the article I posted, I was hoping you'd clarify. You see, the cops involved were supposedly undercover, suggesting they were not in uniform. Perhaps their badges were not in plain sight? In this day and age, I'm not going to stop for someone unless I can see a badge. Also, did the cops open fire before or after the men bumped the unmarked police van? I thought that, perhaps, you had heard more than I have.

As for your statements about how quickly a clip *can* be unloaded, I'll take your word for it. Of course, if what you said is universally correct, that clips can be unloaded so quickly and cops are trained to fire until a suspect is down, this type of thing would happen with much more frequency. I believe there's more to it, but I'll likely never know.

DAs are politicians. In high profile cases it is common practice for them to file charges, even though the odds are the defendant will be aquitted, just to apease the voters. Especially in election years.

Most cops are thugs on power trips. But thats another discussion

Boy, you're a fan of the blanket statements, huh? There's an element of truth to your statement about DAs, but I'm not in any position to conclude that this case was only pursued for political reasons.

As for your statement about cops...I think we actually HAVE that discussion around here, somewhere. I'll see if I can't drag it up...

[Athena]

Giuliani rules, baby.

Ah! Giuliani is a Rockefeller Republican at best. At worst, nothing but a twisted Democrat in wolf's clothing. Let's not forget that he was flying your flag until, what...1980? One might argue that his Democrat background laid the groundwork for his retarded politics. ;)

[Hellsbells]

New York City settles for $7.15M in Sean Bell police shooting

The city agreed Tuesday to pay more than $7 million to settle a wrongful death civil suit lodged by the fiancée and pals of Sean Bell, the unarmed black groom gunned down by cops on his wedding day, sources said.

The settlement, approved by a Brooklyn federal magistrate, ends a four-year legal battle by tragic would-be bride Nicole Paultre Bell and two men wounded in a 50-shot barrage that claimed her lover's life.

Under the agreement, the city will pay $3.25 million to Sean Bell's family estate, which is controlled by Paultre Bell. Bell's pals Joseph Guzman, 35, who was shot 11 times in the incident, will receive $3 million and Trent Benefield, 27, who was shot three times, will be granted $900,000.

"I believe the settlement is fair," said Paultre Bell, the mother of Bell's two daughters, Jada, 7, and Jordyn, 4. "No amount of money can provide closure for losing Sean. I don't think there will ever be closure."

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/..._shooting.html

[Mare]

The city has to appeal and the Court of Appeals will, hopefully, significantly lower the amount granted.

[biteme]

50 rounds aimed at unarmed individuals is hardly "necessary", Mr. Bondurant. While some initial shots may have been justified (although I can't seem to understand why the cops didn't wait to see if the men were actually going to exit the car again after entering it), how does one justify such excessive firing?

Are you a gun owner, Mr. Bondurant? I spend some time down at the range with a .40 and, while two clips can go quickly with continuous fire, it's not exactly "a flash", so to speak.

I suppose I can only wonder what caused the officer to reload, as though the initial clip wasn't enough, especially considering that these men were unarmed.

He probably reloaded because the perps weren't dead and still dangerous in his opinion
Since only 1 died and 2 survived and probably kept moving I would have to say the cops are terrible shots and sounds like they barely got the job done with the 50 rounds. Yes I would have to believe cops will keep shooting at what is considered a dangerous target till it stops moving, the only surprise is that two survived, can't believe these cops actually qualified with their weapons, it's a disgrace and an embarrassment to the whole department that they should fire that many shots and not kill the unarmed suspects. I can only hope all the cops involved will have to go back and qualify with their weapons before being allowed to carry them in the future

[TACO]

Personally, I think they need more shot placement training (in other words marksmanship). Was it excessive...after reading some of the other threads no it was not excessive. Is there some corrupt policemen in the NYPD, yes. But why should we lump all them together? Being a policeman is a very tough job that does not pay very well! Just my random thoughts.

[Aslan]

7 MILLION dollars?
That is all sorts of bullshit.
First of all, it has already been established someone hanging with him said 'get my gun'
It has also been established it was an 'impromptu' bachelor party. Which if you have half a brain means it wasn't scheduled and he just hit the strip club.

7 fucking million. Awesome. Now I know how to retire. Just hang out with a few thugs and have them threaten the police.
Sure one would be a doa but hey, we're talking 7 mil.

[sodom]

I've got alot to say but I'm just a bit too white...................

[sodom]

I'm surprised we don't hear more cases like this. These guys have a horrible job. I don't envy them a bit. Not to mention the danger they face, coupled with that fight or flight predatorial instinct that plays heavily into what they do; it's amazing to me that police officers are so restrained.

Plus the marksmanship record for the typical police officer in a situation like this is statistically very, very low. They usually don't take the time to aim, they fling bullets to stop the target and bring the situation to an end as quickly as possible. You've got to think of it like this; when they actually have to discharge their weapons then the shit has hit the fan, things have gone from bad to totally fucked. It's unpredictable, it's scary, and it's kind of to be expected.

"statistically very, very low"


Do you have statistics?You sound like a Pig....................Or a wanna be.

[biteme]

The city has to appeal and the Court of Appeals will, hopefully, significantly lower the amount granted.

Hopefully give nothing, except jail time to the idiots creating the whole mess
I can't believe they can go to a car to retrieve a gun, make a run for it hitting a cop car
and they get a payout for the mess they created, what they should get is jail time