White Guilt

[moonlilly1981]

I knew that.

I was just making sure YOU were awake!!!!!

And you are!

Its the go go juice.

Any who back on topic. I personally feel no white guilt what so ever. In my personal opinion it will not go away aslong as there are special programs that cater soley to minorities, and the fact that as white people we are told it is wrong to feel pride in being white. Racism exists on all levels of the spectrum. I know from personal experience that racism against white's goes ignored and is tolerated. No one should be made to feel badly about being born something that is out of their control. I also agree with others about how my family never did anything to be held responsible for what was done to slaves or even during the cival rights movement.

[Athena]

How many construction contracts have you bid on Echo?

Zero you say.

Shocking!

I have bid on plenty, and Moon is correct when she says that it is based on a point system.

Contractors receive:

X number of Points for being a MBE/WMBE

X number of points for being a Union Shop (Or having Sub-Contractors who are)

Typically things that are NOT taken into account during the process are things like;

A contractors safety record with OSHA or the MSHA (Mine Safety Health Administration)

Performance on Past Jobs-Was it completed on time and under budget? Was the paperwork submitted correctly etc.)

Quality of past work for the municipality.

In short the things that should be taken into consideration when contracts are let (Awarded) get lower priority than the title of MBE/WMBE.

Don't get me wrong I think its great that there are women and minorities, in construction.

However my big rub is when all things are equal within the point system that the MBE/WMBE gets the contract solely based on their skin color.

How is this fair?

It's not fair IF there's no reference to a a company owner's race. Here's what I mean:

I'm a buyer for Government Agency X. I need some widgets built and begin the bidding process. 5 companies put in for it, but I don't know any of the specifics about them - I only reference the companies by ID numbers.

In this scenario, awarding a point to a minority-owned company would be wrong because it's not counter-acting any bias. There is no bias because all I as the buyer know is a number, a performance record and an estimate for the work.

Now, let's say I, as the buyer, was familiar with all these companies. I, as a white person, am naturally prone to lean toward other white people. If there are a few different ethnic groups on a street and I need to ask directions, I am statistically more likely to ask the white people. Not because I'm racist - it's not a conscious decision on my part - but because people tend to gravitate to their own kind.

In this situation, I could make the argument for the point to be awarded to a minority contractor. White buyer, competition is mostly white... Even if it's not conscious or intentional, that buyer is more likely to choose a white contractor simply because he's "familiar".

In other words, "if all things are equal", a white buyer is going to opt for a white contractor 9 out of 10 times. Not to be a bastard, but because it's just what they know. Affirmative Action was developed to counter-act this phenominon.

And that's why I support the ID number system. If you're choosing between candidates, be it students or contractors, race really shouldn't apply.

An interesting side note, however - The demographic that benefits most from Affirmative Action is white women.

[62julietandvoid]

I am white, however being a woman I don't feel any guilt. Blacks think they've had it bad huh, try walking a block in our shoes. If only I'd recieved a nickle for every time some skeevy fuck thought it was OK to cope a feel with dirty paws or press their dick into my backside I'd be a rich mother fucker and I probably wouldn't be bitching as much as I do.

Then there's the waxing, plucking, outragous shoes and accsessories, bleaching, body modification. Breast and ass being pushed out of porportion, while the rest of us shrinks into an oblivion. Maratal abuse is a joke in our society, rape is advocated in movies and romance novels

Jesus I could go on and on. I don't feel guilty about shit. For fuck sakes, vibrators were once given to women by their doctors-gee wonder why?

[Dakota Valkyrie]

While I am sure my sister is a good pilot, she got her job with a major airline, in part, because she was a "double minority". She knew it going in. Being a woman and Hispanic doesn't help her keep the job, though.

[Echo]

Nowhere did I ever say that it was "okay" for Whites to not be proud of their heritage. Nowhere did I ever say that it was "okay" for Whites to experience racism based on the color of their skin.

If I saw a white person being called a name, discriminated against or hurt in any way just because they happened to be white I would stand up for them as well. Trust.

This thread is about White Guilt and yes it exists, do I feel the need to apologize for some of Moon's, Liemans, and Michael's posts in this thread?

No.

As I white person am I embarrassed by them?

Absolutely.

It bothers the shit out of me that some of my fellow white people are still woefully behind the times when it comes to race, still whining about organizations that protect minorities against discrimination, and still just basically "dont get it." At all. And at this stage in the game probably never will.

Sadly, it is what it is.

Lieman mentions White Pride, and then moves on to White Power. There is a difference between being proud to be white and being a skinhead and belonging to a fucking hate group. How does one even make that jump without being severely insecure and carrying a stunning amount of hate and ignorance in their hearts?

I feel the same about Black Power groups, if they hate me based on the color of my skin and not based on the person that I am inside than they are just as ignorant, intolerant, insecure, and hateful as any racist White group.


Lieman, your post reeks of hate and anger. Michael, you sound like a close minded snarky, racist teabagger that unfortunately has alot to learn, but since you can read an article 3 times and still use the title to make your point, I don't have my hopes up. And Moon...we have already talked about this.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Nowhere did I ever say that it was "okay" for Whites to not be proud of their heritage. Nowhere did I ever say that it was "okay" for Whites to experience racism based on the color of their skin.

If I saw a white person being called a name, discriminated against or hurt in any way just because they happened to be white I would stand up for them as well. Trust.

This thread is about White Guilt and yes it exists, do I feel the need to apologize for some of Moon's, Liemans, and Michael's posts in this thread?

No.

As I white person am I embarrassed by them?

Absolutely.

It bothers the shit out of me that some of my fellow white people are still woefully behind the times when it comes to race, still whining about organizations that protect minorities against discrimination, and still just basically "dont get it." At all. And at this stage in the game probably never will.

Sadly, it is what it is.

Lieman mentions White Pride, and then moves on to White Power. There is a difference between being proud to be white and being a skinhead and belonging to a fucking hate group. How does one even make that jump without being severely insecure and carrying a stunning amount of hate and ignorance in their hearts?

I feel the same about Black Power groups, if they hate me based on the color of my skin and not based on the person that I am inside than they are just as ignorant, intolerant, insecure, and hateful as any racist White group.


Lieman, your post reeks of hate and anger. Michael, you sound like a close minded snarky, racist teabagger that unfortunately has alot to learn, but since you can read an article 3 times and still use the title to make your point, I don't have my hopes up. And Moon...we have already talked about this.

I would also say, that as a white person, I am ashamed of you as well, Echo.

But you're right about the hate groups. I got into them for purposes that were foolish, reeked of insecurity, and as a means to an end to satisfy my need for the sadistic extreme.

I make no excuses for that. It was what it was, and I'm glad I'm out of that now, and there are times, when I truly wonder what the fuck I was thinking. But I DO know the reasons, and they're complicated, but they are what they are, and they're very real.

[thequeenofsorrow]

I hate it when older people in my family think they do something spectacular and wonderful by being nice to my biracial kids. Like they're proud of themselves for treating them the same as other kids. I realize people were kinda different in their believes a generation or two ago but fuck, you're proud of yourself for that?

[MichaelJCheaney]

It's not fair IF there's no reference to a a company owner's race. Here's what I mean:

I'm a buyer for Government Agency X. I need some widgets built and begin the bidding process. 5 companies put in for it, but I don't know any of the specifics about them - I only reference the companies by ID numbers.

In this scenario, awarding a point to a minority-owned company would be wrong because it's not counter-acting any bias. There is no bias because all I as the buyer know is a number, a performance record and an estimate for the work.

Now, let's say I, as the buyer, was familiar with all these companies. I, as a white person, am naturally prone to lean toward other white people. If there are a few different ethnic groups on a street and I need to ask directions, I am statistically more likely to ask the white people. Not because I'm racist - it's not a conscious decision on my part - but because people tend to gravitate to their own kind.

In this situation, I could make the argument for the point to be awarded to a minority contractor. White buyer, competition is mostly white... Even if it's not conscious or intentional, that buyer is more likely to choose a white contractor simply because he's "familiar".

In other words, "if all things are equal", a white buyer is going to opt for a white contractor 9 out of 10 times. Not to be a bastard, but because it's just what they know. Affirmative Action was developed to counter-act this phenominon.

And that's why I support the ID number system. If you're choosing between candidates, be it students or contractors, race really shouldn't apply.

An interesting side note, however - The demographic that benefits most from Affirmative Action is white women.

And you do bring up valid points Athena;

However I would counter that while I have no experience as a buyer that somehow, somewhere in the process before it gets down to you (the buyer) that human intervention is involved. After all someone has to:

Review the bids and then;

Enter the information into the computer. And I would imagine the the question of being minority owned or woman owned is in the program.

And the other thing that is left out of the hypothetical is cost.

Shouldn't the cost somehow play a factor in the letting process?

[Echo]

I would also say, that as a white person, I am ashamed of you as well, Echo.

But you're right about the hate groups. I got into them for purposes that were foolish, reeked of insecurity, and as a means to an end to satisfy my need for the sadistic extreme.

I make no excuses for that. It was what it was, and I'm glad I'm out of that now, and there are times, when I truly wonder what the fuck I was thinking. But I DO know the reasons, and they're complicated, but they are what they are, and they're very real.

In spite of myself this post kind of makes me love you.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

In spite of myself this post kind of makes me love you.

It's been too long, Echo. Too long. But it was bound to happen.

[Saffron]

In spite of myself this post kind of makes me love you.

There's a heart and a very smart person hiding beneath a lot of gruff words...

[Athena]

Its the go go juice.

Any who back on topic. I personally feel no white guilt what so ever. In my personal opinion it will not go away aslong as there are special programs that cater soley to minorities, and the fact that as white people we are told it is wrong to feel pride in being white. Racism exists on all levels of the spectrum. I know from personal experience that racism against white's goes ignored and is tolerated. No one should be made to feel badly about being born something that is out of their control. I also agree with others about how my family never did anything to be held responsible for what was done to slaves or even during the cival rights movement.

Your experience is not necessarily standard. Did you know that, per capita, more blacks are charged with hate crimes than whites?

One thing I'd like to clear up - I keep hearing references to slavery. White guilt doesn't have to have anything to do with slavery. Blacks were discriminated against systemically up until, really, the 1980s. White guilt is not about how YOU or YOUR FAMILY acted during a particular time frame. It's about treading a little more lightly or trying to make amends for what other white people - other members of your "team" - have done. It's kind of like how, when Islamic terrorists got all outta pocket, we expected all other Muslims to rise up and denounce those actions. We wanted them to try to make up for what we perceived as their team members did.

And, while we're at it, let's hit on the racial pride issue. For the most part, racial pride is fucking retarded. You're proud about something you had nothing to do with. It's like being proud to be a brunette or to have green eyes. I'm Armenian and Croatian. I'm interested and knowledgeable about my heritage, but am I not proud of it. Why should I be? I did nothing to earn my heritage. It was just bestowed upon me. I'm proud of being a business owner. I'm proud of my ability to communicate. Those are things I've worked towards.

Now, the reason why minorities express racial pride is because it's a defense mechanism, really. It's a remnant from when they were made to feel like shit simply because of their race. Because whites have never systematically been made to feel like shit because of their race (generally) in this country, it doesn't make sense for us to be proud to be white. I can't say I've ever been told it's wrong to be proud of my race... just that it's kinda stupid.

[Athena]

And you do bring up valid points Athena;

However I would counter that while I have no experience as a buyer that somehow, somewhere in the process before it gets down to you (the buyer) that human intervention is involved. After all someone has to:

Review the bids and then;

Enter the information into the computer. And I would imagine the the question of being minority owned or woman owned is in the program.

And the other thing that is left out of the hypothetical is cost.

Shouldn't the cost somehow play a factor in the letting process?

Well, I was a buyer once for a fairly large sheet metal shop. And when it came to negotiating contracts or entertaining bids, the game was anything but unbiased. I had sales people showering me with gifts, taking me out to lunch, offering me sports tickets... anything and everything they could do to get my company's business. But it didn't have to be like that.

Theoretically, a system could be set up where, if you want to enter a bid, you set up a profile on a website set up by the buyer. This profile does not include any information about owner race or gender (and, in my perfect world, doesn't reference unions either). It's just basic info. That website then issues you a unique ID number. All your communications with the buyer from that point on identify you only by this ID number.

Yes, cost should be considered (it should be one of the more heavily-weighted considerations). So should safety record or customer satisfaction rate.

Why it isn't done like this, I don't know. I've never worked in an industry that gives an advantage to minority owned businesses, or unions for that matter. But, if they wanted to, they *could* set it up like that. It won't because minority leaders are understandably worried about their people being judged on merit alone.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

And, while we're at it, let's hit on the racial pride issue. For the most part, racial pride is fucking retarded. You're proud about something you had nothing to do with. It's like being proud to be a brunette or to have green eyes. I'm Armenian and Croatian. I'm interested and knowledgeable about my heritage, but am I not proud of it. Why should I be? I did nothing to earn my heritage. It was just bestowed upon me. I'm proud of being a business owner. I'm proud of my ability to communicate. Those are things I've worked towards.

Now, the reason why minorities express racial pride is because it's a defense mechanism, really. It's a remnant from when they were made to feel like shit simply because of their race. Because whites have never systematically been made to feel like shit because of their race (generally) in this country, it doesn't make sense for us to be proud to be white. I can't say I've ever been told it's wrong to be proud of my race... just that it's kinda stupid.

Fucking please, lol. It makes sense for them, but not us, when in the same breath, you say that it is a stupid thing for anyone to be proud of their race?

NOW you're being a white apologist. Don't worry, Athena, you continue to talk that slang enough, and maintain your appearance of being a confident, self aware white that denounces white pride but condones the rest, maybe they'll buy it enough to like you, and consider you fly. :P

Where does it say that you have to EARN something to be proud of it? We all have things that were bestowed upon us, or given to us, that we are or were proud of.

My heritage is something I am very proud of. I love the fact that my ancestors were true marauders and murderers. I'm proud of the fact that my great great Grandfather was an olympic ice skater, lofl. I'm proud of the fact that my bloodlines are mostly disease free, and that my family lives into their hundreds often, that we aren't full of defects and diseases, and that we are for the most part a strong, and intelligent people. All of my family are.

I am glad I am white and not black. Asians as a whole are a VERY proud, and even racists race of people, and it has served them well.

The black people are proud of their traits. It's not just because it's DEFENSIVE, or that they've been treated like SHIT, lol.

[Echo]

The black people are proud of their traits. It's not just because it's DEFENSIVE, or that they've been treated like SHIT, lol.

How do you explain away "passing" or the "brown paper bag test? , bleaching cremes, and the compulsive straightening of their hair?

Some of this was much more common in the past but still goes on to this very day. Where do you think that came from? Not from being proud of their traits that is for sure.

What you may not realize is that black people tend to be very harsh on their own regarding skin tone and hair. Almost pathological about it at times. Light skinned and dark skinned are regularly referred to and light skin at times is deified. To. This.Day.

[Athena]

Fucking please, lol. It makes sense for them, but not us, when in the same breath, you say that it is a stupid thing for anyone to be proud of their race?

NOW you're being a white apologist. Don't worry, Athena, you continue to talk that slang enough, and maintain your appearance of being a confident, self aware white that denounces white pride but condones the rest, maybe they'll buy it enough to like you, and consider you fly. :P

Where does it say that you have to EARN something to be proud of it? We all have things that were bestowed upon us, or given to us, that we are or were proud of.

My heritage is something I am very proud of. I love the fact that my ancestors were true marauders and murderers. I'm proud of the fact that my great great Grandfather was an olympic ice skater, lofl. I'm proud of the fact that my bloodlines are mostly disease free, and that my family lives into their hundreds often, that we aren't full of defects and diseases, and that we are for the most part a strong, and intelligent people. All of my family are.

I am glad I am white and not black. Asians as a whole are a VERY proud, and even racists race of people, and it has served them well.

The black people are proud of their traits. It's not just because it's DEFENSIVE, or that they've been treated like SHIT, lol.

You don't read too good, so I'll boil it down for you.

ALL racial pride is retarded. People should be proud of things they have earned, not things they were simply given. It defies the whole purpose of pride. Racism is also retarded. To make fun or belittle someone over something they have no control over is stupid. To belittle people for their failures, on the other hand, makes sense.

In your specific case, be proud of your grandfather's ice skating. That's something he worked toward - something he earned. By the same logic, it's okay to be proud that your ancestors doing whatever they were doing. They were DOING something to earn that pride. Now, being proud for having been born defect-free? That's fucking retarded. No one did anything to earn that shit. Are you proud when you find a $100 bill on the ground? Or are you proud to have earned $100?

You're right - no where does it say that you can't be proud of things you haven't earned. That doesn't make the fact that you are any less retarded.

That said, I did not condone minority pride. It's retarded too. But at least I can see where it came from - why it developed.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

How do you explain away "passing" or the "brown paper bag test? , bleaching cremes, and the compulsive straightening of their hair?

Some of this was much more common in the past but still goes on to this very day. Where do you think that came from? Not from being proud of their traits that is for sure.

What you may not realize is that black people tend to be very harsh on their own regarding skin tone and hair. Almost pathological about it at times. Light skinned and dark skinned are regularly referred to and light skin at times is deified. To. This.Day.

I explain it by overall, whites being easier on the eyes. Is that my fault? No.

They have magnificent traits. Ones many whites wish they had. We all have things about one another that the others are envious of.

It just would be intellectually dishonest to say that blacks are self loathing. That simply isn't the case.

[Echo]

I explain it by overall, whites being easier on the eyes. Is that my fault? No.

They have magnificent traits. Ones many whites wish they had. We all have things about one another that the others are envious of.

It just would be intellectually dishonest to say that blacks are self loathing. That simply isn't the case.

You knew that first sentence was going to drive me insane. You are oversimplifying. Mucho. Black people didn't try to pass, bleach their skin and straighten their hair because white is easier on the eyes and you know it My Dear Lieman.

[MichaelJCheaney]

Michael, you sound like a close minded snarky, racist teabagger that unfortunately has alot to learn, but since you can read an article 3 times and still use the title to make your point, I don't have my hopes up.

So just because I have different views on race that somehow makes me a racist?

Really?

Who is intolerant now?

[MadmamainNC]

What you may not realize is that black people tend to be very harsh on their own regarding skin tone and hair. Almost pathological about it at times. Light skinned and dark skinned are regularly referred to and light skin at times is deified. To. This.Day.

The kids who worked for me when we ran an Amusement Park nearby, referred to one of their friends as a "blue-gums". Not from the south I had no idea what they were talking about and had to ask my hubby. He said it's a term meaning "he's so black his gums are blue".
They'd constantly pick on one another. Another term was "high-yellow".
Now they'd pick in jest and none of them seemed to take it personally but I do know as adults, they will get a clearer picture of acceptance because it is a fact that lighter skinned blacks are favored over darker skinned even among their own race.

The flip side to this is (as a white person) I know the majority of us favor those within our own race with tanned skin. It's a sign of wealth, health and beauty. Go figure!
And the only name I can think of we call anyone in our race based on their pigment is a "ginger kid". And honestly, red headed lily white men are not a preference among our women.

[moonlilly1981]

Echo- I have not once said one racist thing in this post. I backed up my statements with facts based upon the industry that I work in. Do I agree with it from a buisness perspective? No I donot. My company is in existance to make money bottom line. If it wasnt then guess what it wouldnt be around. You take and hire a subcontractor because of the contract price and quality of work. A building dosnt care what color or gender ( which you forget I pointed out women owned buisnesses ) that all fall under those particual guidelines in MY current contract. We have to have a certain number of minority or women owned subcontractors on this project. When we bid on a project we have to supply with our bid certificate proving a minority or women owned buisness. If we donot provide a certain percent when we bid we as a General Contractor cannot bid. If there is any issue with that statement that is not my own fault. But the federal government. My opinion is bids should go to the lowest bidder with the best rep for completing a project on time thus providing a potential at avoiding liquidated damages. Be ashamed I dont care.

Athena - I like the idea of there being a point system related to just a number like you said. Points awarded for a minority buisness would be fine in my opinion. That would in my opinion open the door for fair bidding procedures. But like I pointed out with my contract we have to prove that we use a certain amount of minority or women owned companies.

One thing that does bother me when I bring up the civial rights movement is that it is assumed that it means just black people. Cival rights started that way because of the segregation and treatment of our black communities. Its quickly moved to a stance for equal rights for everyone. Thats why the EEOC was created. It protects everyone no matter race, creed, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.

There is nothing wrong with having pride for your race. I am a caucasion american who comes from a family of people who came from all of Europe and Cherokee indian. Is that any different then my friend from mexico being proud that she is from mexico? No its not. Or my puerto rican ex's family being proud that they are puerto rican? No its not. Im proud of who I am and where I come from. Im proud of my family history. There is no shame in that. Yes whites have been made to feel like shit for their heritage. Italians are called WOPS. Jews are called Kikes, and the irish micks. Judgements are passed about every single race of person the planet. Humans by nature are judgmental creatures.

Your experience is not necessarily standard. Did you know that, per capita, more blacks are charged with hate crimes than whites?

Come down to my neck of the woods and you will see that yes it is more standard. I am not the only one who has experenced this. My father grew up in the projects of baltimore city. A white kid with a Jewish daddy. His stories boggle my mind. Beaten and left bloody in an ally just for being different. They all came from the same socioeconomic background.

Racial pride is nothing to be ashamed of. Its just a way of saying this is who I am and where I come from. Its the opposite of racial guilt.

[Athena]

The flip side to this is (as a white person) I know the majority of us favor those within our own race with tanned skin. It's a sign of wealth, health and beauty. Go figure!

It's not a sign of health anymore, lol, now that it's been determined regular tanning in beds is as bad for you as smoking. :P

But this really speaks to just how relative aesthetics is. Not too long ago, pale skin was beautiful, as it was a sign of status. If you were tan, it means you performed manual labor and were probably poor and certainly less delicate.

Lieman says white people are easier on the eyes. Who's eyes? His? Americans'? Of course. We're white people and, because we are the majority in this country, we set the standard for beauty. But in places where whites aren't the majority, we aren't necessarily easier on the eyes, either. Beyond basics like symmetry, beauty is relative.

[Echo]

So just because I have different views on race that somehow makes me a racist?

Really?

Who is intolerant now?

Racists should not be "tolerated." That is my stance on that and always has been.

As far as the first sentence in your post.........

Really?

[moonlilly1981]

How do you explain away "passing" or the "brown paper bag test? , bleaching cremes, and the compulsive straightening of their hair?

Some of this was much more common in the past but still goes on to this very day. Where do you think that came from? Not from being proud of their traits that is for sure.

What you may not realize is that black people tend to be very harsh on their own regarding skin tone and hair. Almost pathological about it at times. Light skinned and dark skinned are regularly referred to and light skin at times is deified. To. This.Day.

Vanity

Its the same reason why I wax, color my hair, put on make up, get tattoos, have an obsession with tight fitting pants, and push up bras. I don't do it but some girls and guys go tanning....why....vanity

[Athena]

Athena - I like the idea of there being a point system related to just a number like you said. Points awarded for a minority buisness would be fine in my opinion. That would in my opinion open the door for fair bidding procedures. But like I pointed out with my contract we have to prove that we use a certain amount of minority or women owned companies.

One thing that does bother me when I bring up the civial rights movement is that it is assumed that it means just black people. Cival rights started that way because of the segregation and treatment of our black communities. Its quickly moved to a stance for equal rights for everyone. Thats why the EEOC was created. It protects everyone no matter race, creed, religion, gender, or sexual orientation.

There is nothing wrong with having pride for your race. I am a caucasion american who comes from a family of people who came from all of Europe and Cherokee indian. Is that any different then my friend from mexico being proud that she is from mexico? No its not. Or my puerto rican ex's family being proud that they are puerto rican? No its not. Im proud of who I am and where I come from. Im proud of my family history. There is no shame in that. Yes whites have been made to feel like shit for their heritage. Italians are called WOPS. Jews are called Kikes, and the irish micks. Judgements are passed about every single race of person the planet. Humans by nature are judgmental creatures.

Come down to my neck of the woods and you will see that yes it is more standard. I am not the only one who has experenced this. My father grew up in the projects of baltimore city. A white kid with a Jewish daddy. His stories boggle my mind. Beaten and left bloody in an ally just for being different. They all came from the same socioeconomic background.

Racial pride is nothing to be ashamed of. Its just a way of saying this is who I am and where I come from. Its the opposite of racial guilt.

Yes, some white ethnicities have been specifically targeted. And, do you know any white ethnicities that, as a whole or steretype, are prouder than Italians, Jews or Irish people? I can't think of any. It's because discrimination had the same effect on them as black people. Because it was something held against them, they turned it into something to be specifically proud of.

It's still ridiculous, in my opinion, but if you disagree, that's certainly your right.

[Echo]

Vanity

Its the same reason why I wax, color my hair, put on make up, get tattoos, have an obsession with tight fitting pants, and push up bras. I don't do it but some girls and guys go tanning....why....vanity

Vanity???????

Have you ever in your entire life read a history book? Or are you just stuck on those construction contracts? Hopefully your "redneck" walmart has some books you can pick up and read.

You are in dire need.

[Athena]

Vanity

Its the same reason why I wax, color my hair, put on make up, get tattoos, have an obsession with tight fitting pants, and push up bras. I don't do it but some girls and guys go tanning....why....vanity

It's different, though. For black folk who expressly set out to obtain traditionally white characteristics, it often stems from the fact that whites in this country set the standard for beauty because we are the majority. It is sometimes a form of self-loathing.

[moonlilly1981]

Vanity???????

Have you ever in your entire life read a history book? Or are you just stuck on those construction contracts? Hopefully your "redneck" walmart has some books you can pick up and read.

You are in dire need.

Echo you know nothing about me. Do not name call me. This is three things. Yes I have read quite a few history books thank you. Before becoming a mother at an early age I was a double major in college. History and Education. Want to see a copy of my college transcripts?

Im proud of the fact that I work in the industry that I am in. An industry that is male driven and I am able to hold myself up on my own as a female in a supervisory position. I am not a secretary or receptionist. There is nothing wrong with that. I am something my daughter can be proud of. I shouldnt have to defend who I am in three things.

I brought up my knowledge about minority and women owned buisnesses dealing with the industry that I work in for good reason.

[Rockin Ma]

I keep coming to this thread reading and reading... waiting so I can try to respond because I want to but unfortunately, I'm thick and still can not clearly express an opinion because I'm still not getting what white guilt is. Is it feeling sorry for being white? I'm just not sure.

I know of no one who is sorry for their color... at least no one has ever expressed it to me.

[Echo]

Echo you know nothing about me. Do not name call me. This is three things. Yes I have read quite a few history books thank you. Before becoming a mother at an early age I was a double major in college. History and Education. Want to see a copy of my college transcripts?

Im proud of the fact that I work in the industry that I am in. An industry that is male driven and I am able to hold myself up on my own as a female in a supervisory position. I am not a secretary or receptionist. There is nothing wrong with that. I am something my daughter can be proud of. I shouldnt have to defend who I am in three things.

I brought up my knowledge about minority and women owned buisnesses dealing with the industry that I work in for good reason.

If you cant take the heat in three things..........move on. And when did I call you a name? Believe me, I showed restraint.

You were a history major and you pass passing, bleaching creme and hair straightening off on VANITY??? Hilarious.

Be proud of what you do as a strong woman in a managerial position, I am not putting that down. I think its awesome.

But please do educate yourself regarding US History, African American History, and sociology in general. I'm sorry but something did not stick the first time around.

I'm being totally serious.

I do not think you are actually a hateful person, but you definitely say some seriously ill informed and ignorant things regarding race. You should work on that.