Health Care Reform Bill to Fine Families Who Cannot Afford Health Care Cost

[ImmortalOne]

Source

The House passed its bill in November, and officials said it was likely to be February before the two sides can sort out their differences over issues as diverse as government's role in a remade health care system, coverage for abortion and federal subsidies for lower and middle-income families who would be required to purchase insurance.

Senate Republican attacked the bill to the end, and citing public opinion polls, said they would use it as an issue in the 2010 congressional elections. "This debate was supposed to produce a bill that reformed health care in America. Instead, we're left with party-line votes in the middle of the night, a couple of sweetheart deals to get it over the finish line, and a public that's outraged," said the Republican leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.

The Senate vote unfolded as the sun rose over the Capitol on the day before Christmas, and marked the culmination of a battle that lasted months and included failed bipartisan negotiations, a last-minute flurryof Democratic dealmaking to lock in 60 votes and a highly partisan debate that held lawmakers in session a near-record 25 consecutive days.

For the third time since Sunday night, Sen. Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia, 92, was wheeled into the Senate so he could cast his vote. Sen. Jim Bunning, R-Ky., did not vote.

For Democrats there was an air of bittersweet celebration, underscored by the presence of Vicki Kennedy in the visitor's gallery that overlooks the Senate floor. Her husband, the late Sen. Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts, died in August after a career spent working relentlessly for universal health care.

"With Sen. Ted Kennedy's booming voice in our ears, with his passion in our hearts, we say, as he said: The work goes on, the cause endures," said Reid, echoing words Kennedy uttered in his most famous speech.

Beginning in 2014, the Senate bill would establish insurance exchanges where consumers could shop for private coverage sold under federal guidelines. Most Americans would be required to purchase insurance or face penalties, and hundreds of billions of dollars in federal subsidies would be available to families up to incomes of about $88,000 a year. Insurance companies would be banned from denying benefits or charging higher fees on the basis of pre-existing medical conditions. That provision would take effect in 2013 in the House version.

The Congressional Budget Office estimates the Senate measure would extend coverage to about 31 million Americans who lack it, while cutting federal deficits by $130 billion over a decade and possibly much more in the following 10 years. Premiums would rise for some, but fall for many others, particularly when the effects of federal subsidies are factored in, the agency says.

Being required to purchase insurance when the premiums are going to be too much to afford on modest incomes damaged by the economy.... hmm seems bad to me.

[Pene784]

This bill is outrageous to me. When I think about health care reform I think about disallowing hospitals to charge a $100 for a tylenol or a box of tissues, about making doctors post the prices they charge for every procedure so that you can make informed decisions about cost and your care, making some prescription only medications available over the counter- such as antibiotics, asthma medications, cough medications. Capping the amount doctors have to pay out in malpractice claims in most cases. Stop insurance companies from denying needed care to patients based on purely financial decisions but instead let the doctors make the decisions based on proper medical care ....... You know, fix the things that are actually broken. Insurance is available for any one who actually wants it. You may have to give up some luxuries for it or you may have to work at a job you don't love to get it or if you are poor you may be on medicaid or other insurance offered for the indigent, but there are options available to everyone who wants insurance. And there are some folks who do not believe in western medicine, why should they be forced to buy medical insurance that they will never use? Some wealthy families choose to just pay for medical care as they go so they can make all medical decisions and not let their insurance companies make important medical decisions for them. I think this bill is dooming American families to fail. So strange that they can pass a bill that the majority of Americans are against.

[ImmortalOne]

Well how the health care insurance (and car insurance) works is like this:

Joe Schmo walks in off the street, no insurance. His car windshield is broken (his foot is broken). The repair shop charges $150.00 (Hospital $500.00)...
Susan has Health Insurance and the insurance says: For this windshield we will pay you $400.00 (to the repair shop) and $1500.00 (for the hospital) - BUT you have to get $50-$500 from our insured first.

This is going to drive companies to take the 8% penalty for NOT providing insurance and cancel insurances. It's going to drive the middle class that is already struggling into poverty.

Only in America can we fix what isn't broken and make it fucked up and wrong.

[AmyB80]

I realized some time back that there are three prices you could pay. Let me try to give an example. The monetary amounts are not properly figured (meaning I may short what the doctor is truly paid) but the difference between prices is real. Go to doctor for prenatal visit. If you are on Public Aid the doctor can only charge Public Aid say $10.00 for the visit. If you have insurance that covers doctor visits with a co-pay, usually that co-pay is $20.00 of a billed to the insurance company amount of about say $150.00 after the insurance company states they are paying a higher benefit due to using an in-network provider. If you have no insurance and are paying cash you are charged the full $200.00 for the prenatal visit. Why are doctors, hospitals and other healthcare companies out to choke the life out of your wallet when you don't have any insurance, yet are most willing to accept the lower payments if made to them through an insurance company or state aid plan? You can ultimately get the discount as a cash paying person if you allow the bill to lapse with no payment and let it move on to collections, then they are usually willing to take a portion of the balance due and call it even, although in the meantime your credit record suffered a little more. We don't have insurance at this moment because my husband switched jobs and it does not start until January. Did you know that if you are covered through a spouses plan at another employer that your employer will give you a stipend for that? Did you also know that anyone that refuses insurance coverage through the company causes that company to have to pay a fine/fee because of it? I wonder if the fine/fee is about the same as what they would pay a year in coverage payments? Sometimes I do not understand what I am talking about. I better put that fair warning in here. On a related note that I do understand, we got the COBRA coverage papers asking if we wanted to continue coverage through Blue Cross at the cost of over $1200.00 a month. My husband used to pay approximately $82.00 a week out of his check for family coverage which equaled about $330.00 a month. Needless to say we decline the 4x cost coverage. Heck thats even more than our mortgage payment each month, to which I refuse to jump through hoops or miss payments in order to be "eligible" to play the paperwork disappearing act with the banks to try to get a better monthly payment (the presidents "fix" yet another joke) than the over $900.00 we pay now on a fixed rate 30-year with 28 years left to go.

[AmyB80]

....making some prescription only medications available over the counter- such as antibiotics... from Pene's 10:13am reply. I'm not so sure that is a good idea on the antibiotics. Studies show (wth does that mean anyway? but on this I'm willing to believe it is accurate) that the more often you take an antibiotic to treat things (including things that do not need antibiotics to get better which doctors have done before just to make a patient happy) will cause the antibiotic to be less effective in later years. Some bacteria mutate (sometimes due to the antibiotic they are exposed to) and become resistant, think in terms of MRSA. If the general idiot was able to obtain antibiotics over the counter to treat things like sore throat and things you and I know antibiotics are not used to treat, well can you see where I am going with this? I think we would see a lot more rampant superbugs.

[malq]

Is this the health care reform bill that is 2700 pages long and not one person who voted on it read it?

Is this the bill full of gimmes and givaways?

It this the bill that made it so if you are successful you have to pay for your insurance if you make over 88k? and if you don't,.. those that are successful will pay it for you?
quoted from thread post

Most Americans would be required to purchase insurance or face penalties, and hundreds of billions of dollars in federal subsidies would be available to families up to incomes of about $88,000 a year.

It this the bill that the public plan and national health insurance exchange will squeeze out private insurance and put us on the road to single-payer health care?

Is this the bill that Arizona and 5 other states are talking about opting out of? You heard me. States are separating from the union over this.

Lawmakers in six states are considering legislation to "protect" citizens from a federal health care plan by creating statewide initiatives to vote on whether to opt out of the national program -- even before Congress has created the program

source



Having the public plan now will mean socialized medicine later.
Here's the bottom line. Millions of people will drop their private coverage if there is political pressure to keep a public plan's premiums low and benefits high. And if private insurers leave the market, consumers will essentially be left with no choice of plans and no control over how their health care dollars are spent.
so this bill is essentially sets the future for guaranteed socialized medicine.
We fucked up Holmes.

[ImmortalOne]

It this the bill that made it so if you are successful you have to pay for your insurance if you make over 88k? and if you don't,.. those that are successful will pay it for you?

Canada pays $100 a month for a family. $100.00. Other more civilized (and less crime ridden) countries have similar situations.

You can give me all the "Tax breaks" you want. But when you are living on $35-45k a year for a family of 5-6 and do not fall within the "poverty levels" - I'm sorry but you aren't going to find extra cash laying around just to buy insurance and hope it comes back to you once a year. If you don't pay for that insurance that you already can't afford you are going to get fined more. Really? That makes sense to you? Especially with the fines raising for the American Family every year they don't have insurance (but not for the companies that will be paying a flat 8%).

Not to mention that the insurance companies can do whatever they want till 2014! That means they can deny whomever they want. They will jack up and raise premiums to get as much money as they can out of everyone till that date arrives.

I'm sorry but if you are already paying anywhere from $150-400 a week for health care (As a single mother it was going to cost me $1200 a month to put insurance on my kids through an employer at one point)... and STILL have to pay a rediculous co-pay and deductible and only have coverage up till so much.... Instead you can pay a tax for far less and everyone has health care? Children are no long going to go without medical coverage. The American male in a family isn't going to go without health coverage (real story: My kids and I get medicaid, my husband doesn't because she's the male in the family who is working and his work doesn't offer coverage)...

We dropped the ball on this in so many ways. Our congressmen and our leaders were more interested in what the bottom line in their own pockets were going to be as per usual.

[ImmortalOne]

I don't want a "hand out" or totally free coverage. As I said, Canada pays per month for their families. That's fine. I am angry about the fines for people who cannot pay. The middle class that is already struggling and is the backbone and working class of this country.

[malq]

I don't want a "hand out" or totally free coverage. As I said, Canada pays per month for their families. That's fine. I am angry about the fines for people who cannot pay. The middle class that is already struggling and is the backbone and working class of this country.

I hear you immortal. But if you expect the federal govt to get it together enough to provide health care for $100/month without the handout coming from the middle upper class, I wish you luck. This is the same federal government that allowed the insurance companies and medical system to create their own rules. It is a handout and a redistribution of wealth. It is socialism. Who do you trust?

[ImmortalOne]

I hear you immortal. But if you expect the federal govt to get it together enough to provide health care for $100/month without the handout coming from the middle upper class, I wish you luck. This is the same federal government that allowed the insurance companies and medical system to create their own rules. It is a handout and a redistribution of wealth. It is socialism. Who do you trust?

At this point... No one. I need to just go buy myself an island in the middle of no where. Declare my own country and start over.

[Twisted]

Well, first I'll come out and say I am a socialist. It's an economic sense to me, at least to some degree, that providing less-expensive preventative care decreases the cost of emergency visits.

In general, I suppose that makes me a dissenter regarding the value of socialized medicine.

That said, this bill is crap. It's exactly what the President ridiculed when he was campaigning. It's like telling a homeless person we're going to fine them for not having a house. The problem isn't people who don't want it, it's people who can't afford it. Taking more money from them doesn't fix it.

[Athena]

Well, I'm no socialist, but agree that preventive care is the key. The problem is, REALISTICALLY, preventive care reducing emergency room visits and, thus, health care costs, will have little impact ultimately. The reason is that preventive care relies heavily on personal responsibility. And, let's be real - Americans aren't all that responsible about their health. Even those WITH insurance will usually wait until they absolutely HAVE to be seen. Health care costs simply CANNOT depend on how well people are caring for themselves.

The problem - and I'm not even remotely sure as to how to fix it - is the lack of competition. It's largely caused by the operating practices of insurance companies, and just the effect that someone else paying a bill has on competition.

Limited insurance "networks" make it difficult, if not impossible, to shop around for the best value. Of course, even if this wasn't the case, because the insurance covers the bill, people aren't exactly motivated to shop around. With almost everything - car repairs, groceries, electronics - people will spend healthy chunks of time researching the best deal. But if, suddenly, someone else was covering, say, your grocery bill, you might be prone to shop at the closest supermarket because the pennies you might save are irrelevant to you. Now, they're the pennies your grocery sponsor saves. Not your problem.

As a result, health care providers can be as inefficient as they want, but they'll still get paid because no one - not the insurance company and not the patient - is looking around for a more efficient provider. Thus, inefficiency never gets rooted out, and premiums keep going up and up to account for the increased cost.

We can't have it both ways. We can't NOT pay for comprehensive health care.

People want to bring up Canada and other countries with socialized medicine. Fine. A couple relevant points:

1.) Canada and similar countries don't have NEAR the regulation that the U.S. does. This is why many up and coming drug manufacturers go to and sell their drugs out of Canada. These regulations = increased costs. You also see FAR fewer ads for medicine in those countries. A smaller percentage of their population is chronically medicated. To reap the rewards of these facts here in the states will require a MASSIVE culture shift. Americans love to be sick. We fucking LOVE to be medicated. So, drug companies create a shit load of pills we can suck down our necks and all these pills have to be tested and tested and tested and reviewed for approval. Costs $$$.

Canadians take significantly fewer pills. Ff their pills aren't tested with the "thoroughness" they are here in the States, it's not a big deal, because a third of the goddamn nation isn't on it, which means limited casualties should a medication eventually prove detrimental.

2.) Scope. If I'm not mistaken (and correct me if I'm wrong), not a single country with socialized medicine is operating at the scope we intend to. And volume does mean increased cost. Canada, 30 million people. England, 50 mil. France, 65 mil. America... 300 million. Our system will be inherently more complicated and more expensive.

3.) Preventive care in these other countries doesn't abide by U.S. standards. Here in the States, us womenfolk get a pap annually. Teeth cleaning is recommended every 6 months. In England, you don't get a pap until you're 25, then it's every three years. And teeth cleaning? Only when they think you really need it, quite often every couple of years. Are Americans going to be comfortable backing away from established standards for cheaper health care? Maybe, but the point is, socialized medicine in ANY country does not compare to insured medicine in the States. We will not be trading one for one as some may think.

How the government intends to pay for this is just one of a long list of problems insufficiently addressed by this legislation.

[Aslan]

In England, you don't get a pap until you're 25, then it's every three years. And teeth cleaning? Only when they think you really need it

if my roommate from London was any indication, there are those who think teeth cleaning is unnecessary.
Toothbrushes as well.

[Pene784]

The problem - and I'm not even remotely sure as to how to fix it - is the lack of competition. It's largely caused by the operating practices of insurance companies, and just the effect that someone else paying a bill has on competition.

Limited insurance "networks" make it difficult, if not impossible, to shop around for the best value. Of course, even if this wasn't the case, because the insurance covers the bill, people aren't exactly motivated to shop around. With almost everything - car repairs, groceries, electronics - people will spend healthy chunks of time researching the best deal. But if, suddenly, someone else was covering, say, your grocery bill, you might be prone to shop at the closest supermarket because the pennies you might save are irrelevant to you. Now, they're the pennies your grocery sponsor saves. Not your problem.

I think health care providers should make a menu of their services and the cost for each service. I do not know of any doctors (except cosmetic surgeons and the like) that posts their prices. I have asked on several ocassions in doctor offices and in the hospital what a certain service will cost and the only thing I have ever been told was "your insurance will cover it". Dentists tend to let you know their prices only because you usually have to pay a portion of the bill up front. I can't think of any other industry where it acceptable to leave people in the dark regarding cost until AFTER the service is provided and you are stuck with the bill. Very screwy. I think doctors should be required to let you know the price of each service BEFORE the service is provided.

[Twisted]

I think health care providers should make a menu of their services and the cost for each service. I do not know of any doctors (except cosmetic surgeons and the like) that posts their prices. I have asked on several ocassions in doctor offices and in the hospital what a certain service will cost and the only thing I have ever been told was "your insurance will cover it". Dentists tend to let you know their prices only because you usually have to pay a portion of the bill up front. I can't think of any other industry where it acceptable to leave people in the dark regarding cost until AFTER the service is provided and you are stuck with the bill. Very screwy. I think doctors should be required to let you know the price of each service BEFORE the service is provided.

On this, I have to agree entirely. It also would be nice to know both what they would charge you if you don't have insurance, and what they would charge the insurance company if you do have insurance.

[Twisted]

Americans aren't all that responsible about their health.

Sadly, that is very true. I know plenty that wouldn't see a doctor until they're bleeding or dismembered.

You're also correct on the scale thing. There is no evidence yet on how it would scale, something I had not considered.

[battery jackson]

wowwwwww, dont you just LOVE how "we are going to provide medical coverage to all americans" = "buy insurance or else you will be PUNISHED" ???

fuck this country. the people in it are too stupid or selfish to see what is going on here. they no longer deserve the freedom they have, because they are using it to give the freedom of OTHERS away because they don't know any better, thanks to the freedom of those in influential positions to bamboozle and lie to them. it's a vicious cycle and it won't stop until everybody is dead or enslaved. i myself prefer the patrick henry route personally. or just domineering over them with the fervor of any self respecting despot.

but realistically, it is pertinent to have fun while being dragged down by scum we should probably just put out of their misery in the first place, because otherwise, what would the point of life be, to complain? i know i do my fair share, so it's important to keep the spirits up regardless.

[MC30]

well speaking as someone who has had no health insurance for the past 10 years...(our jobs don't offer it, and realize that private insurance for a family of three is about 375 a month (if you even qualify) would be quite a stretch on our budget. our state offers a co-plan for our daughter, but we make $50 a month too much. $50! so what should we do? cut down on work..well thats not in the budget. so if i can't let go of $50 how an i supposed to round up $375? we are lucky that we have a walk-in clinic here that is $60 to find out whats wrong with you no matter what. its only gen. pract. stuff, but i don't know what we would do with out it.

[eracsurfer]

I swear that anything that our government gets its hands on turns to shit. Can anyone name a single thing that our government has taken over and fixed?

Something that Athena missed when commenting on the socialized medicine...

"The median wait time in Canada to see a special physician is a little over four weeks with 89.5% waiting less than 3 months"

Granted, this isn't in the case of an emergency, but if you have a child that is suffering from a sinus infection or ear ache... a freakin' month!?

Also, in the cases of specialized surgery, where is it that all of the "rich folk" from around the world go to get it? Right here to the US of A. Why? Because they can find someone that will do it without having to wait in line with the unwashed masses. Not to mention, we have the most cutting edge technology in the world. So, the "socialized" part only applies to those who can't afford better. Do you honestly think that the politicians and celebrities won't still have their private care physicians?

All this is going to do is further restrict access to QUALITY healthcare. Sure, everyone might get seen (eventually), but it will be more and more like a McDonalds where the less skilled doctors will be waiting on those that have socialized medicine, and the prominent docs will be serving the elite.

I really do like the menu idea that Pene mentioned.

[Pete Bondurant]

Can anyone name a single thing that our government has taken over and fixed?

Japan?