Ridiculously high dropout rates in urban areas

[Athena]

Low Graduation Rates in US Cities
Tuesday, Apr. 01, 2008 By AP/KEN THOMAS

Buzz (WASHINGTON) — Seventeen of the nation's 50 largest cities had high school graduation rates lower than 50 percent, with the lowest graduation rates reported in Detroit, Indianapolis and Cleveland, according to a report released Tuesday.

The report, issued by America's Promise Alliance, found that about half of the students served by public school systems in the nation's largest cities receive diplomas. Students in suburban and rural public high schools were more likely to graduate than their counterparts in urban public high schools, the researchers said.

Nationally, about 70 percent of U.S. students graduate on time with a regular diploma and about 1.2 million students drop out annually.

"When more than 1 million students a year drop out of high school, it's more than a problem, it's a catastrophe," said former Secretary of State Colin Powell, founding chair of the alliance.

The report found troubling data on the prospects of urban public high school students getting to college. In Detroit's public schools, 24.9 percent of the students graduated from high school, while 30.5 percent graduated in Indianapolis Public Schools and 34.1 percent received diplomas in the Cleveland Municipal City School District.

Full article

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So? What should we do? I say, we stop spending so much in the way of resources on forcing kids to attend school. Draconian attendance policies, truancy agents, cops patroling the streets looking for abscent children - it all detracts from the bottom line. We should be spending this money on engaging those who give a shit. Quality, not quantity.

We should also be moving into a tiered system as early as elementary school, much like the honors, regular and special ed tracks in most high schools. We should test all kids going into elementary school and place them based on the results. More accurate training for teachers, more accurate learning for kids. Transition between tracks should be fluid for kids on lower tiers capable of moving up or vice-versa. Teachers will no longer be forced to cater to the lowest common denominator, or leave more average kids out of the loop by focusing on brighter students.

If we quit trying to force education down the throats of the unwilling and spend those resources more wisely, maybe there would be fewer of the unwilling who tend to drop out because they are bored or disillusioned.

[CPL CHUD]

Well, I need someone to hand me my bag out of the drive thru window.

[swivel]

Instead of "Urban" read: "Black boys"

They can not stay in school. They belong to a culture that frowns on success. They destroy the souls of any kid that shows any interest in learning or improving himself, saying that they are being "white". The racial warfare which is being raged today almost SOLELY by black leaders, is hanging out the next generation of black men to dry.

And the few black heroes, who point out this very problem, are called traitors for wanting the best for their people. It is absolutely revolting.

One of the reasons that I might be voting for Obama (even though I disagree with almost his every view) is that I would like to show blacks that racism is over for our part. Nobody in my generation has ever supported systematic racism, and never would. There is no glass ceiling, you can be whatever you want to be. And if you want to be a hoodlum, knock up young girls and leave them out to dry, beat up your friends in the front yard, ignore the majesty of your brains, disrespect the legacy of your forefathers, stay drunk and on drugs, worship anger and power over class and wit, and generally waste your lives being criminals and worthless punks... just know one thing... the rest of society will fucking kill you before we let you take us down with you.

I say, raise my taxes and build more prisons and get ready, because the longterm effects of the baby-boomers will be nothing compared to this generation of angry, ignorant black men that want to tear down this country for being great in just the manner they wish to tear down each other for aspiring to greatness. Fuck every one of you punks for giving your race a bad name. Your grandparents deserve more for the work they put into your futures. Much, much more.

[Rotten Apple]

Instead of "Urban" read: "Black boys"

They can not stay in school. They belong to a culture that frowns on success. They destroy the souls of any kid that shows any interest in learning or improving himself, saying that they are being "white". The racial warfare which is being raged today almost SOLELY by black leaders, is hanging out the next generation of black men to dry.

You can add American Latinos to that too. Not the just over the border ones, those guys are still trying to excel. The ones that are third or fourth generation on up.

I have been accused of acting "white" because of my academic performance when I was in school. Coconut, whitewashed, I've heard it all. It mostly came from my peers though, not my family or culture as a whole.

I always countered it with "So, I could prove that I am 100% Chicana to you by having a desire to fail? No thanks."

[swivel]

I always countered it with "So, I could prove that I am 100% Chicana to you by having a desire to fail? No thanks."

EXACTLY!!!!!

What better way to "show the white man" than to get richer than they are? How are black men getting back at me by sitting in jail? I love spending those tax dollars!

And everyone needs to be very careful about making this just about race. This is about race and gender. The women aren't fucking up half as bad.

[Athena]

And everyone needs to be very careful about making this just about race. This is about race and gender. The women aren't fucking up half as bad.

Hold on...lemme think a minute...


Yeahhhh...I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Worse yet, I'm going to site my personal experience.

During my four years in the hood, I saw a lot of fatherless black families. Mistake #1, sure. Of course, this left a bunch of single black mothers - women who had total control over the quality of their child's upbringing (for the most part, you know what I mean). Did these women say, "Phew, the dysfunctional black man is out of the picture. He can't influence my babies any more, so I'm going to raise them right,"? Nope. Nadda one. Of all the single black mothers I knew, 100% of them worked ACTIVELY toward raising little gangsters. Ooh...my favorite story to illustrate this -

So, my boyfriend and I were enjoying a lovely afternoon, BBQing on the patio. Little kids were running around everywhere. One cute little group was playing "house" over to our right on a neighbor's patio. I'm sure you can imagine the looks on our faces when we suddenly hear, in a squeeky, 7 year old voice, "Bitch! Whatchu doin' wit my baby's daddy?!"

@_@

We couldn't help but giggle because, hey...that's the hood version of "house", for you. But it spoke to an absolute tragedy. This is what the children emulate because this is what they know.

I would argue that, given the incidence of fatherless black families, black mothers MUST be embracing the thug culture just as wholeheartedly as the men do, considering the rate at which they're churning out little Gs. Is that fucking up less? Not in my opinion.

[swivel]

Yeahhhh...I'm going to go ahead and disagree. Worse yet, I'm going to site my personal experience.

Professor Bell notes that about three-quarters of black male high school dropouts in the United States are unemployed, compared to about one-third of their white counterparts. So, he says, many cannot support a family. And some analysts say that a loss of the traditional bread-winner role has turned many black men to violence.

In addition to victimizing one another, many African American men are abusive to women in their communities. Studies show that African American women suffer more abuse and are more likely to be killed by men than women in other racial groups.

"But even in that situation, the black girls tend to outperform the black boys in a school situation. And some people are concerned that the school system is less compatible for boys than it is for the black girls who are achieving at a higher rate. And it is reflected now in admission rates to colleges and professional schools where black women outnumber black males two-to-one," says Poussaint.

Rap artists and their music often are a role model for young African American men
Poor education, drugs, absent fathers, a decline in the availability of low-skilled jobs in America's inner cities and popular rap culture that glorifies swaggering masculinity over hard work have all been cited as causes for the plight of young black men.

From my linked source, above.

http://www.voanews.com/english/archi...TOKEN=38624191

You are looking at a 2 to 1 difference. That is MASSIVE.

Also, men can walk out on babies easier than women can. You are blaming women for falling for the promise of a young black man, trying his hardest to "woo" her so he can get some pussy? It isn't her fault for believing a liar, it is the liars fault.

[Athena]

Also, men can walk out on babies easier than women can. You are blaming women for falling for the promise of a young black man, trying his hardest to "woo" her so he can get some pussy? It isn't her fault for believing a liar, it is the liars fault.

Of course, when you compare male behavior to female behavior, the difference is substantial. I'm looking at a bigger picture. Who is to blame for creating these criminals? Are we going to blame society?

My point had nothing to do with her role in the family being fatherless. My point is that, quite often, the single mother does absolutely NOTHING with the control afforded her by a fatherless situation. Now, the blame for her child becoming a violent, thieving criminal falls squarely on her shoulders. I just don't feel as though the mother who actively exposes her offspring to the criminal element should be considered to be less of a fuck up than the one her male child will likely turn into as a young adult. And her female child? Odds are, she'll turn out like her mother...a little thug machine. Just because the nature of the female failure is not as easily calculated or compared does not mean it should be completely discounted.

[swivel]

Of course, when you compare male behavior to female behavior, the difference is substantial. I'm looking at a bigger picture. Who is to blame for creating these criminals? Are we going to blame society?

My point had nothing to do with her role in the family being fatherless. My point is that, quite often, the single mother does absolutely NOTHING with the control afforded her by a fatherless situation. Now, the blame for her child becoming a violent, thieving criminal falls squarely on her shoulders. I just don't feel as though the mother who actively exposes her offspring to the criminal element should be considered to be less of a fuck up than the one her male child will likely turn into as a young adult. And her female child? Odds are, she'll turn out like her mother...a little thug machine. Just because the nature of the female failure is not as easily calculated or compared does not mean it should be completely discounted.

Points taken, but we don't see these differences between men and women in any other race. So race is part of the problem.

And we don't see the same effect on black women that we see with black men, so gender is part of the problem.

Hence, the problem of Black Men. And some other black men are brave enough to talk about this. And yes, we can partly blame society. It is a cultural thing. A "hate whitey" culture that white people ignore because of self-blame revolving around slavery.

We are allowing them to founder because of our guilt!

[Athena]

I still believe the bulk of the responsibility for how these individuals turn out lies on the folks who were directly involved in their upbringing. In the case of black, American society, that is, all too often, the mother. Sure, we can partly blame a variety of factors. I'd just hate to have the peanut gallery think that we are absolving the black female of the active role she plays in the downfall of society, simply because the statistics regarding school and prison display such a disparity. I'm just reminding the crowd that not everything is measured by statistics.

I agree with everything else you said.

[swivel]

I still believe the bulk of the responsibility for how these individuals turn out lies on the folks who were directly involved in their upbringing. In the case of black, American society, that is, all too often, the mother.

Parents don't raise kids. Kids raise kids.

[Athena]

We are allowing them to founder because of our guilt!

It's quite silly, really. We feel bad for our hand in their suffering, so we repay them by encouraging their failure. Pffft. Some friends we are. :p

[Athena]

Parents don't raise kids. Kids raise kids.

Huh?

[swivel]

Huh?

Parents don't raise kids. They provide the genetic component, their peers and siblings provide the nurture component.

It is only in the last three or so years that this has become apparent to psychologists, but commonsense should have clued us in: Kids spend almost no time with their parents, and what little time they do spend with them, they ignore almost everything they say. Parents have the first 5 years. How much do you remember of your life before you were 5? Exactly. The hippocampus isn't yet doing its job fully.

Kids care what their peers think in a way that parents can only envy. And the real proof comes from looking at tribal cultures, where kids are raised in the manner that our genetics and bio-chemistry expect. This is also where you can discover the truth behind the degraded maturation process that kids in modern culture go through.

In small tribes, kids go largely ignored once they can self-ambulate. Larger concerns are the next baby, food, and safety. What happens is this, kids form small groups, where all ages interact together. These groups usually consist of children from 3 to 13, give or take a year or two on either end. This is the "child" stage. Before this, they are babies, and require sustenance from someone else. After this stage, they become adults, and start differentiating themselves from the child group.

What is interesting about these groups is that the older kids berate the younger kids, and keep them in line. And each kid looks up to the kids older than themselves, and attempts to be like they are. This makes each kid develop rapidly, as they model their own behavior after that of an older child. This was the way of things until about 100 years ago, when schools became big enough that we could group kids by age, and teach them a progressively-harder curriculum.

Problem with this scenario: Now kids only had other kids their own age to emulate. Every age group faced this dilemma, which stunted them all. There were no older tribe-mates to show you the ropes, there were no bonds with older children, there was no responsibility that you learn from being an "elder". Now, the only children who benefit from the culture that their genes and biology EXPECT are middle children, who still only get a scant sampling of the effect, and it is perverted by familial bonds, which have their own peculiar place in a healthy upbringing.

If you are interested in learning more, the studies are out there. What you think you know about nurture and childhood is completely false.

[Athena]

Either I misunderstand what it is that you're trying to say, or I don't buy it. Either way, obviously, I will look into it further. For the time being, however, and I'll probably sound disgustingly ignorant...

Simply because we are not raising our kids in the manner they are intended to grow up does not suggest to me that a parent lacks a substantial amount of influence over their child's behavior. I mean, how does this differ from, say, a domesticated animal? Certainly, a dog is programmed to grow up in a manner vastly different to that which it experiences in a home, yet, generally, a dog's behavior is very closely tied to the quality of training it receives from its owner. We may have altered the system, but that doesn't necessarily mean it doesn't work for us. I realize that I may certainly be mistaken and will have to review those studies you speak of. Still, I don't understand. Don't we override all sorts of biological programming, to an extent? If what you suggest is true, shouldn't I be more like my peers than like my parents?

[dop]

I think Swiv is saying you are a lot like your parents because of genetics not much or any by nurture, you are the rest of your personality by nurture of your friends...

[swivel]

I think Swiv is saying you are a lot like your parents because of genetics not much or any by nurture, you are the rest of your personality by nurture of your friends...

Precisely. And parents know this on a fundamental level.

The studies which bear this out have taken genetics into account, with adopted twins as a control group, and comparisons between biological and adoptive offspring. Once you control for the genetic factor, nothing else remains between the parent and the child. The .25 correlation we find attributable to nurture has no visible component due to parental influence. None.

What we have is a situation where kids are going to turn out like their parents, because they are built on the genes of their parents. People think this is due to behavioral modification, so they attribute the outcome to nurture. Science tells a different story.

Another point: Psychologists and laymen make the mistake of attributing innate behaviors to the first occurrence of that behavior. Here's what I mean: Suppose that I have an innate (genetic) tendency to not get along with authority figures. When I am 8, I have a massive blow-out with a teacher that is memorable to everyone around me, including myself. For the rest of my life, I have the same sorts of out-bursts with teachers, cops, parents, psychologists, etc... The current (and incorrect) trend is to blame all subsequent manifestations of my behavior on the interaction I had with that teacher at age 8. This is crazy. There is no control for the more likely scenario, which is that I am innately prone to fighting with authority, and this genetic urge HAD to present itself a "first" time, since it was going to be presenting itself many, many times. As soon as we control for the heritable, such follies vanish.

[WryBread]

There's a Chinese saying that I have always thought very wise, "You can't choose your childrens' friends, but you can choose the neighborhood." The story was of a mother who did not have a lot of money, but made sure to set her modest home in a neighborhood of admirable people, thus paving the way for her children to naturally assume their values.

I won't vote for Obama because it will prove something to black thugs. That is what he's counting on -- that's why he's pussyfooting around the Rev. Wright issue. Obama wants to run with the foxes and hunt with hounds -- to come off as Mr. Deep Philosopher and Messiah figure even as he sucks up for years to a preacher who melds his parishoners into a tithe-giving hate group.

[Athena]

I don't know...I would have been totally screwed had I picked up my friends' values and behavior.

But, hey...I still haven't had time to look into it yet.

[gprime]

Illegitimacy is, as has been pointed out, a crucial issue that ought to be addressed in a way few have the boldness to. And of those who do, mostly elderly blacks I might add, they are called "house niggers" or other absurd names. Maybe it is just me, but I find them the polar opposite, if for no other reason than that they challange the prevailing rhetoric of the caucasian community, which is governed to greatly by political correctness to effectively discuss the issues.

The question is what to do? My solution would be to cut social spending entirely, so that these thugs cannot rely on "government cheese" and welfare checks to pay for bastard children with their various baby mamas. Those who want to learn and excell, will find a way, between the vast public resources (like the library system) and the extensive network of private programs designed to move minorities out of the ghetto and into elite private schools and social institutions. And those who don't can be left to their own devices. Let the gangbanging crackheads kill each other off, so that we don't see another race riot, like what happened following the Rodney King incident.

While I don't want us to go out of our way to help them, and find the current offerings already excessive, I'm struck by how badly they are squandering golden opportunities. Booker T Washington, unduely slandered these days by Afrocentrists, emphasized the importance of education and building a skill set of true value. He and others opened up black colleges. And things only got better with MLK and the 1964 Civil Rights Act. These days, as Walter Williams and Thomas Sowell (both Black) often point out, there is no longer a serious problem of White racism. If anything, the trend has done a 180 degree turn. In a time where blacks have no racial barriers, plenty of aid through affirmative action, and citizenship in a free and stable country (compared to anywhere in Africa at least), there is no excuse for their culture to degenerate into that of thugish brutality and savagery.

[CPL CHUD]

I don't know...I would have been totally screwed had I picked up my friends' values and behavior.

But, hey...I still haven't had time to look into it yet.

If you ever get the time I think you'll find this book interesting:

The Nurture Assumption: Why Children Turn Out the Way They Do

.....and maybe a little bit of Richard Dawkins to round it out.

[Pete Bondurant]

Don't worry about all of these inner-city high school dropouts. St. Barack d'Obama is going to use your tax money to buy them brand new lap-top computers and then hire government nutritionist to ensure that they eat properly. View his Westchester University appearance on so-called HARDBALL, where he explains this to the cheering throngs of idiotic American upper-middle class college students. Also, I think he makes out with Chris Matthews.