Angel Proves God's Existence

[swivel]

Wonderful post ^^^

And MorningStar, your attempts to make blind devotion seem moral and numb acceptance seem glorious do nothing for me. There is no reason to believe in a god. There is zero evidence. Zero. So, if one exists it could be an evil abomination as easily as your fairies. Supplicating yourself before the unknown is a gesture of weakness, fear, and immorality, not a grand leap of faith to be cherished and admired.

There is a mile of substance in this thread, a grand refutation of almost every god I have ever encountered, and your rebuttal is that believing in fairies is fun? I grant you that living in a delusional fantasyland of your own creation can be a kick. But it does not compare to unraveling the mysteries of the universe to what degree we can, and exercising our imagination in other, healthy manners.

[impqueen]

Swivel, your little friends are wrong. They have been affected by the skepticism of a skeptical age. They do not believe except [what] they see. They think that nothing can be which is not comprehensible by their little minds. All minds, Swivel, whether they be men's or children's, are little. In this great universe of ours man is a mere insect, an ant, in his intellect, as compared with the boundless world about him, as measured by the intelligence capable of grasping the whole of truth and knowledge.

Yes, Swivel, there is a God. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no God. It would be as dreary as if there were no Swivels. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished.

Not believe in God! You might as well not believe in fairies! You might get your papa to hire men to watch in all the churches on Christmas Eve to catch God, but even if they did not see God coming down, what would that prove? Nobody sees God, but that is no sign that there is no God. The most real things in the world are those that neither children nor men can see. Did you ever see fairies dancing on the lawn? Of course not, but that's no proof that they are not there. Nobody can conceive or imagine all the wonders there are unseen and unseeable in the world.

You may tear apart the baby's rattle and see what makes the noise inside, but there is a veil covering the unseen world which not the strongest man, nor even the united strength of all the strongest men that ever lived, could tear apart. Only faith, fancy, poetry, love, romance, can push aside that curtain and view and picture the supernal beauty and glory beyond. Is it all real? Ah, Swivel, in all this world there is nothing else real and abiding.

This is a brilliant reworking of the "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" letter written by Francis P. Church in 1897.

Subtle, smart, and maybe my favorite post of the week. :D

[impqueen]

Wonderful post ^^^

And MorningStar, your attempts to make blind devotion seem moral and numb acceptance seem glorious do nothing for me. There is no reason to believe in a god. There is zero evidence. Zero. So, if one exists it could be an evil abomination as easily as your fairies. Supplicating yourself before the unknown is a gesture of weakness, fear, and immorality, not a grand leap of faith to be cherished and admired.

There is a mile of substance in this thread, a grand refutation of almost every god I have ever encountered, and your rebuttal is that believing in fairies is fun? I grant you that living in a delusional fantasyland of your own creation can be a kick. But it does not compare to unraveling the mysteries of the universe to what degree we can, and exercising our imagination in other, healthy manners.

I so rarely get to snicker at you, Swivel, that i am really, really enjoying it right now.

I'm sorry. I should be punished, probably. But damn, you just got taken. Smacked in the head by a subreference. :p

[Athena]

CPL and swivel got hornswoggled???

Fellas, fellas...It seems your rabid opposition to faith blinded to you a rather brilliant little joke. Loosen your neckties a bit, huh? ;)

TheMorningStar deserves a pat on the back. More clever than I could ever hope to be.

[CPL CHUD]

This is a brilliant reworking of the "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" letter written by Francis P. Church in 1897.

Man, I never even heard of that untill now. Sometimes people of faith come off as so crazy to me that I can't tell when they're joking or not.

[Raq me darkly]

You use the phrase "before time", which means "before change" which means that an eternal god could not exist within it. His very "first" action would be the BEGINNING of time, which would be the beginning of Him.

No, I use the phrase "before time" to indicate a time before "now" (as I mentioned) and "after time" to indicate after "now". "Now" is the time that we can know. If this entity existed in a time before that time which we can know, it would still be time to this entity but not to us. We can now measure more and more early time so we can guess longer and longer into our past.

But there is still more past than we can measure and for lack of a better term, this measurement is termed an "eternity." And how much future can we measure? Essentially none. We can only measure "now" and "past." We can plan for future, but we don't know what is in future. And because we cannot know how much future there is, it is called an "eternity."

It doesn't matter if time is circular, you still can't have an infinite number of them BEFORE a particular event. Even if time repeats itself, each iteration is distinguishable by the number of times an event has happened. If we had a universe with two particles orbiting one another, we could keep track by counting each orbit and revolution, so an exact duplicate of a previous state can be seen as unique. Because the second time the state exists, it has only existed once before. The third time, it has only existed twice before. Each duplicate state is still unique because of the sense of history inherent with change/time.

Again, it is only if you know what has come before. Perhaps deja vu is the passing through that exact state again but since we only perceive time as linear, we don't recognize that some time(s) previously we had actually done that before and it is an acknowledgement of this past.

Go to an "early" moment in our infinite/creator god and pose this problem: There is an infinite number of states (let's call them "cups of coffee") that god must go through before he creates the universe. When will he create the universe?

The answer is "Never".

I still fail to see why there must be an infinite number of "cups of coffee" before anything is done. You already said that the infinite number of states with a duration/length of zero essentially don't exist. So therefore, by your argument, no "cups of coffee" need be consumed.

[Athena]

Man, I never even heard of that untill now. Sometimes people of faith come off as so crazy to me that I can't tell when they're joking or not.

Honestly, I sympathize. I'm not even going to front like I wouldn't have reacted just like you had I been online last night. And I've heard of and read that piece (although not for some time, now). I still won't assume I would have recognized it, though. :p

When I was in high school, I was friends with a particularly devout young gymnist. We existed peacefully by making the conscious effort to avoid the topic of religion. Well, one day, it was unavoidable. I remember her saying that she could "feel God's love like you might feel the rays of the sun". I remember looking at her, one part puzzled, one part disturbed. Pausing long enough to register what she had just said to me, I replied, "Why'd you have to say that? I'm never again going to be able to take you seriously..."

She hated me after that. Told everyone that I had made her feel like she was crazy. I figured, if you can be made to feel crazy, there's a good enough chance that you actually are. I mean, I didn't feel bad; faith is whatever and to each their own, but don't lie to me about it. And, when it comes to that particular comment, if she wasn't lying, she was delusional.

[CPL CHUD]

She hated me after that. Told everyone that I had made her feel like she was crazy. I figured, if you can be made to feel crazy, there's a good enough chance that you actually are. I mean, I didn't feel bad; faith is whatever and to each their own, but don't lie to me about it. And, when it comes to that particular comment, if she wasn't lying, she was delusional.

I once worked with a guy who believed that if you had enough faith in god you would disappear and become "one with him", kind of like the way the force works in Star Wars, and when he would suddenly say something out of the blue and totally out of context, people would ask him who he was talking to, and his response would be "god of course". This guy was 100% serious about it too.

[TheMorningStar]

This is a brilliant reworking of the "Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus" letter written by Francis P. Church in 1897.

I thought I could milk that for laughs for a day or two. Wow, you caught that quick. I'm impressed!

http://media.mtvnservices.com/mgid:c...os.com:154150:

[Miss. Hill]

My Mommy (love her) is a devout Catholic, I am not. She has told me on many occasion that Virgin Mary and Jesus come to her. They have left roses on her wall and have given her messages, they guide her in decisions. She is constantly telling me to "let go and let god". We always argue about it but she is so brainwashed it's scary, LET GO AND LET GOD, yeah okay seems to be working for you, not!

She also attends weekly healing masses where the pastor, preacher, priest whatever his charlatan ass claims to be heals people by putting his hand on your head, he healed a blind person she told me, yup she seen it! My mom is hoping for healing of her depression and lack of money to pay for her 2nd face lift and tummy tuck. He asked her to lunch to discuss what he could do for her. He was totally hitting on the hot crazy lady, sick ;)


I could tell you many hilarious stories pertaining to my mom, I know she wouldn't appreciate it..so I won't. I will yell you she is loopy but also a loving Nana, and mom!

[Athena]

Apparently, this post broke the thread, so I'll try again:

I once worked with a guy who believed that if you had enough faith in god you would disappear and become "one with him", kind of like the way the force works in Star Wars, and when he would suddenly say something out of the blue and totally out of context, people would ask him who he was talking to, and his response would be "god of course". This guy was 100% serious about it too.

Whoa. Your crazy totally trumps mine. @_@

I can't imagine living the life of a person like that. Wouldn't your spirit be dampened over time by being looked at like you're insane? Bah...they probably just consider it a "test".

[swivel]

No, I use the phrase "before time" to indicate a time before "now" (as I mentioned) and "after time" to indicate after "now". "Now" is the time that we can know. If this entity existed in a time before that time which we can know, it would still be time to this entity but not to us. We can now measure more and more early time so we can guess longer and longer into our past.

You don't understand what "time" is. It is just a measure of change. Time and change are really the same things. What you are saying above makes no sense whatsoever.

But there is still more past than we can measure and for lack of a better term, this measurement is termed an "eternity." And how much future can we measure? Essentially none. We can only measure "now" and "past." We can plan for future, but we don't know what is in future. And because we cannot know how much future there is, it is called an "eternity."

See above. None of this makes any sense. You are using words for which we have specific meanings to mean something entirely new, of your own choosing. This ruins our ability to communicate.

Again, it is only if you know what has come before. Perhaps deja vu is the passing through that exact state again but since we only perceive time as linear, we don't recognize that some time(s) previously we had actually done that before and it is an acknowledgement of this past.

Pseudo-scientific musings.

I still fail to see why there must be an infinite number of "cups of coffee" before anything is done. You already said that the infinite number of states with a duration/length of zero essentially don't exist. So therefore, by your argument, no "cups of coffee" need be consumed.

You need to read my post on "slices" and "dices" again.

[I am Legend]

silly little cro-mags....................

dont you fundies know that all religions are basically based on something known as the precession of the equinox. it boils down to the 4 seasons, the solstices and the eqinoxes. its all about knowing when the son (son) is gonna let us plant our crops and such.

Jesus was a jew. how many xians adhere to the torah? (actually, how many jews do these days?) the answer to both is NONE.why? because yaweh is just an old tribal diety with a massive ego and some serious issues. xians can at least thank Paul for not having to follow Jesus' teachings.

in the end ALL religions are basically the same ole same ole. check out the cargo cults if you doubt that man will find religion in damn near anything.

wake up.

[swivel]

xians can at least thank Paul for not having to follow Jesus' teachings.

I have encountered theologians that call Christianity "Paulism" for this very reason. It allows them to discuss the actual religion, Christianity, which only lasted for ~80 years, from Paulism, which is what most people practice today. (end is near, don't have sex, Jesus was the ACTUAL son of God, etc..)

check out the cargo cults if you doubt that man will find religion in damn near anything.

When I first learned about the cargo cults, so much clicked into place that my nose started running. It is impossible for me to see every major religion as nothing more than another cargo cult now.


Where have you been? This place is almost sane without your craziness.

[I am Legend]

I have encountered theologians that call Christianity "Paulism" for this very reason. It allows them to discuss the actual religion, Christianity, which only lasted for ~80 years, from Paulism, which is what most people practice today. (end is near, don't have sex, Jesus was the ACTUAL son of God, etc..)



When I first learned about the cargo cults, so much clicked into place that my nose started running. It is impossible for me to see every major religion as nothing more than another cargo cult now.


Where have you been? This place is almost sane without your craziness.

i was busy reading Lucifers Hammer, which i must say was pretty good;)

Paulinian xiananity is a funny thing. it teaches basically nothing that the gospels claim jesus taught and said (kinda like how the night before xmas is silent on santas' elven slave labor ring). i have found that this is the best angle with which to begin debating someone who is christian, because it is easily backed up even within Pauls own books, if only one can be open-minded enough to see it.

sad fact: you cannot break down so many years of brainwashing over-night. if a person is smart and really cares about their "faith", they will read, learn, question, and one day logically come to the conclusion that I/we have, which is its so obviously bullshit that is is genuinely saddening to see so many duped by it.

if they dont, then they are basically jackasses who just use it to justify their own internal beliefs anyway. they will be sorely disappointed in the end.

[swivel]

i was busy reading Lucifers Hammer, which i must say was pretty good;)

One of the 5 best Sci-Fi books ever written.

And the best post-apocalyptic account of all time.

[michelle]

I think it had its place at the dawn of mankind when the gaps of understanding were large enough to fill with gods and goddesses. Now, not so much.

While I agree to an extent, religion has been so instilled in many a life that some folks could not continue, would not function without their GOD assuring them of an afterlife. It's hard for many a human to grasp they only have the life here on this planet. It is kinda a hard place to live at times. Without that hope many would just despair instead of live well, whether rick or poor, young or old. Times aren't always so great, whats wrong with the hope of pardise and rewards for living a good life?

[swivel]

While I agree to an extent, religion has been so instilled in many a life that some folks could not continue, would not function without their GOD assuring them of an afterlife. It's hard for many a human to grasp they only have the life here on this planet. It is kinda a hard place to live at times. Without that hope many would just despair instead of live well, whether rick or poor, young or old. Times aren't always so great, whats wrong with the hope of pardise and rewards for living a good life?

Armchair reasoning at best, post-hoc rationalizations at worst.

One could also, with no evidence to cite, claim that the reason religious people are miserable is because they don't fully appreciate the one and only life that they have to live. That they are slogging through this miserable existence in a spiritual coma due to the false promise of the wondrous life to come. Both of our arguments are based on nothing but biased musings, aren't they?

There is no evidence that people can not live without their gods. On the contrary, the most well-put-together people I know live with the least amount of superstition. Again, we could argue that this is correlation (idiots need a god, so cling to one) or we could argue that this is causation (accepting there is a god prevents you from outgrowing your idiocy/being a non-idiot leads you to seeing that there is no god). How can we tell?

One clue might be the powerful religiosity we find in prisons and the very few accounts we have of people that killed because they knew there wasn't a god or a heaven and had no reason to go on (compared to the number who kill because god commanded them to).

What I do not accept is that god is required simply because we have always said so. There is an obvious trend to witness: Over the past 2,000 years, people have become less and less superstitious. Over that same period, we have greatly enhanced the standards of living, we have become far more tolerant, we have ended slavery, we have put women on equal footing as men, we have learned to treat others with more respect and care, and we have progressed in every measurable way (intellectually, philosophically, scientifically, artistically). With the sharp decline of religion, and the marked rise of all that is good in the universe, how can we pretend that the two are positively correlated?

A whole heaping of blind motherfucking faith, I suppose...

[CPL CHUD]

While I agree to an extent, religion has been so instilled in many a life that some folks could not continue, would not function without their GOD assuring them of an afterlife. It's hard for many a human to grasp they only have the life here on this planet. It is kinda a hard place to live at times. Without that hope many would just despair instead of live well, whether rick or poor, young or old. Times aren't always so great, whats wrong with the hope of pardise and rewards for living a good life?

You're presuming a lot of things here. It's like slave owners in the South arguing that owning a slave has been so instilled in their culture that life would suck and shouldn't exist without them. The world would end if my favorite baseball team didn't play. I'd have no reason to live now if I knew there wasn't some eternal all you can eat buffet at the end of the tunnel. Nonsense.

Rather I tend to believe that if people know they got one shot they want to give it their all. Morals are independent of superstitious belief so we don't really have much concern there. All we have left is people wanting to make due with what life is and make the life we live now a better place.

And you got to remember that religion has never given us anything but armchair musing at best and genocide at worse. People do bad things if they are under the blind faith assumption that paradise awaits them; all they got to do is burn some left handed people, crash a plane into a tower, firebomb an abortion clinic, and an eternity of retarded bliss awaits.

God never assured an afterlife. He never assured anything. Human beings did. Human beings that had no concept of heliocentricity, or evolution, or penicillin, or how weather worked, etc. etc. Burning bushes told them stuff they already knew about morality instead of stuff that could actually help them out in the long run.

[swivel]

God never assured an afterlife. He never assured anything. Human beings did. Human beings that had no concept of heliocentricity, or evolution, or penicillin, or how weather worked, etc. etc. Burning bushes told them stuff they already knew about morality instead of stuff that could actually help them out in the long run.

I've always wondered why god wasn't more like a tutor. How come he never helped humans with their math? Why didn't he point to the germ theory of disease in a vision to some scientist? It has to be that:

A) He enjoys our suffering through it ourselves, at the cost of billions of lives and years of misery, while promoting his clerical army to kill those who are attempting to solve these mysteries themselves.

B) He is an idiot and couldn't help us in these areas if he wanted to.

C) He is dead.

D) He never was.

[Michele]

I have a feeling everyone in this forum believe's in God's existance, they just dont agree the same way everyone else does. We all have one thing in common in this forum. We believe in God's justice. Simply that, the rest Angel you are going to have to think hard and figure out yourself because they are not going to tell you. Now this is my first post so please dont be too "just" with me. ;)

[CPL CHUD]

I have a feeling everyone in this forum believe's in God's existance, they just dont agree the same way everyone else does. We all have one thing in common in this forum. We believe in God's justice.

Welcome to the board. I'd read the thread though to gauge what people believe and I have no idea what you mean by "God's justice". The only two possibilities I can imagine are that god doesn't exist or that it's an evil entity. Neither are worthy of my praise and worship.

[Athena]

On the contrary, the most well-put-together people I know live with the least amount of superstition.

Just out of curiosity - do you know any well-put-together religious folk?

[Michele]

Welcome to the board. I'd read the thread though to gauge what people believe and I have no idea what you mean by "God's justice". The only two possibilities I can imagine are that god doesn't exist or that it's an evil entity. Neither are worthy of my praise and worship.

Just out of curiosity - do you know any well-put-together religious folk?

I know some religious people who are well-put-together, but I also know many who are not religious, and well put-together. I think religion is a shot at bringing a person to find Gods will for them, but religion doesnt make a person good. Finding Gods will is what its all about.

[Michele]

Welcome to the board. I'd read the thread though to gauge what people believe and I have no idea what you mean by "God's justice". The only two possibilities I can imagine are that god doesn't exist or that it's an evil entity. Neither are worthy of my praise and worship.

God does exist. Satan does exist. Put it this way, there are only 2 will's in this world. One that is good and one that is bad, we get to choose who we want to be, the problem is is that people dont believe that something is evil, so they do it anyways and the end result is becoming lost, and its hard to find your way back, been there done that. Justice is this....you slap me, I slap you back kind of thing. You dont have to believe me, but this is my experience remember, its just my opinion from my experience.

[I am Legend]

I have a feeling everyone in this forum believe's in God's existance, they just dont agree the same way everyone else does. We all have one thing in common in this forum. We believe in God's justice. Simply that, the rest Angel you are going to have to think hard and figure out yourself because they are not going to tell you. Now this is my first post so please dont be too "just" with me. ;)

not even close. the sad fact is there is no god, at all. i clung to being an agnostic for far too long. time wasted in false hope. the idea of god is a joke, and religion is the lame ass punchline.

[swivel]

I have a feeling everyone in this forum believe's in God's existance,

I don't.

And if you'll read this thread, you'll find that the god you probably worship has been proven to not exist.

[dop]

there are only 2 will's in this world. One that is good and one that is bad, we get to choose who we want to be, the problem is is that people dont believe that something is evil, so they do it anyways and the end result is becoming lost

Hi Michele, welcome to the board.

I dont believe in any form of a god at all but thats beyond the point...

What strikes me as odd is you think people mostly do downrigth evil deeds(aparently lured by satan) because they dont believe those things are evil.

This just strikes me as odd because our front page and the prision sistems of many countires are absolutley packed with people that believe in god(s) yet broke their gods basic teachings and they know this, why would you say they dont know what they did is evil if they were given basic moral guidlines against it?

[Athena]

God does exist. Satan does exist. Put it this way, there are only 2 will's in this world. One that is good and one that is bad, we get to choose who we want to be, the problem is is that people dont believe that something is evil, so they do it anyways and the end result is becoming lost, and its hard to find your way back, been there done that.

I appreciate your involvement in this thread. :)

That being said, I solidly disbelieve in God, or any concept of a higher power in a conscious sense. I don't even view things in terms of "good" and "evil", persay. I tend to look at things in terms more similar to "productive" and "counter-productive". I may use terms like "good" and "evil", but it's definitely not in the "inspired by God" or "inspired by Satan" sense.

[Michele]

I don't.

And if you'll read this thread, you'll find that the god you probably worship has been proven to not exist.

Hi Swivel. Yeah, but not everyone is Athiest, some are just pissed off at him for this life, because for many it isnt easy, I could write a book about that. Not everyone was given a moral background, and people think why would God allow evil. Its all a test a test of choice. Like I said if you find the wrong path and become self willed then its hard to come back, but if you did, you would know that there is a God. Thats the only way I can prove it to you. Yeah, I know tons of people in here dont believe in God, thats the best I can do to prove it. I am just a sinner and have taken many wrong paths, I got a total ass whoopin in this world, but I never gave up searching. Its all about giving up ourselves and doing his will, and for everyone thats different. Thats the problem, well the one I faced.