12yr old BOY returns to school as a GIRL after the holidays.

**absinthe** · September 21st, 2009, 12:13 PM

Originally Posted by sorrow_discord

Pene784, I assume that use Lev. 18:22 or Lev. 20:13 to form the moral belief that homosexuality is a sin. My question is, do you eat pork (lev. 11:7) Shrimp (Lev. 11:12) Wear clothing of mixed linen (Lev.19:19) Make sure that any meat you eat is drained of all blood (Lev. 19:26) Would you kill your children if they cursed you (Lev. 20:9) Stone someone for adultry (Lev. 20:10) Work on the sabbath (Lev. 23:3)? Thats just to name a few. Do you give sacrifice when it is your time of the month, or after the birth of your children? Does your husband give sacrifice after he has a discharge of semen? I bet not, yet these are also a part of the holiness codes

One thing that I never understood is the reasoning behind Conservative Christians picking perhaps a handful of passages from the book of Leviticus and ignoring the rest.

one thing i never understood is why conservative christians want so bad to be jews.

**biteme** · September 21st, 2009, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by TheImperialCerealKiller

I'm seeing at least 30-40 articles about this kid online and not one interview with the parents, nor any mention of the kid's name or identifying information. It sounds like another, more small-minded parent called the media- the only quotes in the article come from some random mom who sounds pissed. I'd say 'random pissed-off mom' is the real famewhore here, wouldn't you? She's the one blabbing away in the papers. I guess we'll have to wait and see what the intentions are, how about that? Let's give it a month- any famewhore worth his/her salt is going to go public while the story's still hot, right?

Really- parents who figure out how to alter the androgen receptors in their kid's brain, just to get in the papers? You really believe that?

that they changed the child or dressed the child up was not the point.
It's having the child start school with previous classmates and pretending to expect them to not recognize the child. I said it not about transgender but how the parents dealt with it, They didn't make it a positive experience for the poor child, They placed the child in a most negative atmosphere, I can't see them having done this as in the best interest of the child.

**Pene784** · September 21st, 2009, 02:06 PM

I am aware that my views are not popular and that is okay with me. Just because I tell my child that certain things do not fit in with our beliefs does not mean I tell her that she should hate or demean the people. (Do children treat boys and girls in a different manner? How? I am sure they do not go around calling each other girl or boy)I do not go around preaching to people about the bible and what they should or should not do. I speak to my own child about these things so that she will grow up to be a moral person. I believe many of things that we go through on earth is just a test of character and morality. Does that mean gay or transgendered people will not go to heaven? does it mean in the end I will not go to heaven for my own beliefs? Who can say? I guess some people see all of the acceptance of immoral behavior as progress. I do not happen to be one of them. This is a subject that we will have to disagree on.

**sorrow_discord** · September 21st, 2009, 02:58 PM

Pene784, do you teach your children of all the abominations and sins that are listed in the bible, or just the ones that your church decided are a sin? That is where my major problem is with the christian religion. The bible says that homosexuality is a sin, it states that adultry is a sin..fine, but it also states that a lot of other things are a sin. Three things are pulled from the holiness codes and called a sin, yet the codes themselves actually number a great more than three.

**Pene784** · September 21st, 2009, 04:47 PM

.

**biteme** · September 21st, 2009, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Pene784

That is funny that you reference the name. Now that you have pointed out the fact that pene can also refer to a penis, I do remember my father saying that when I was a child and he is from Italy. I also call my dog "Pene" short for Penelope (easier to yell very loud "Pene" as she is almost completely deaf and startles easily if she doesn't hear you coming)Perhaps I should stop doing that when my parents are visiting. Maybe they think I am calling my dog a penis.

I dont claim my views are new or special, just my own.

Pene is spanish cock not Italian

**skeptik** · September 21st, 2009, 06:44 PM

People are bigoted assholes.

**sorrow_discord** · September 21st, 2009, 07:12 PM

Pene is penis in Italian also. lol Great that its the same in both Spanish and Italian.

Been trying to learn Spanish..hmm

**biteme** · September 21st, 2009, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by sorrow_discord

Pene is penis in Italian also. lol Great that its the same in both Spanish and Italian.

Been trying to learn Spanish..hmm

Penis is Latin
You mean like, "cazzo mi piacciono le penne e calamari"
more of a wet noodle in Italian
LOL

**Pene784** · September 21st, 2009, 07:31 PM

Bigot –noun a person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief, or opinion.

Try looking in the mirror if you would like to see a bigot. Pretty sure that definition fits in more than one situation. I am being ridiculed because my opinion and beliefs are different than your own. Just saying.

**sorrow_discord** · September 21st, 2009, 07:35 PM

Nope, even looked it up in my Dizionario Inglese Italiano to make sure that I had the spelling right, and not thinking of the pasta. lmao never gonna be able to see that in a store and not laugh now. Thanks

**Nell** · September 21st, 2009, 07:35 PM

you first

I would never tell my child that this was okay and that the child was normal and she should treat him , oops excuse me her as a girl. I think this is completely immoral and abnormal and that is what I would teach my child

**brokenandtwisted** · September 21st, 2009, 07:39 PM

Multiple studies have found that there is a correlation between intelligence and irreligion. Sufficient to say, many religious people are not intelligent. Pene784 is evidence of this. I for one eagerly await the day in which the religious are identified as being mentally ill.

No less, some doctors would probably argue that hormonal therapy as a teenager would be best due to the physiological changes adolescence brings forth. I'd agree with them on the principle of logic...however, does a twelve year-old know what they want? That's something worth arguing. When I was twelve I was interested in boys, I also wanted to be an architect. I'd now be fine in a relationship with a woman...and I have no interest in architecture.

**Pene784** · September 21st, 2009, 09:52 PM

Multiple studies have found that there is a correlation between intelligence and irreligion. Sufficient to say, many religious people are not intelligent

Religion = stupidity? I see. People that are religous and therefore do not agree with your opinions are not intelligent. You can make this assessment based on one opinion posted on a message board. Wow, you must be a genuis. Please tell me where to find all of these studies that you found that are supported by scientific data.

**absinthe** · September 21st, 2009, 10:04 PM

Originally Posted by biteme

Pene is spanish cock not Italian

you're right they are such totally different languages! zomg!

**Zsu Zsu's Petals** · September 21st, 2009, 10:06 PM

Originally Posted by TheImperialCerealKiller

Interesting article- I gotta say, little Jona certainly sounds like the happier and better-adjusted of the two.
It would be interesting to follow up with these two kids in, say, 20 years, and see what they have to say about the approaches their parents took.

I agree~ And my guess is that by the time this particular 12 year old and her parents reached the decision to let her live as a girl rather than a boy, there had been a lot of turmoil and heartbreak all around. Perhaps they believe that no matter how difficult it may be at school to deal with any bullies or fearful folks, it is less traumatizing than continuing to live what she considers to be a lie.

As we can see from the two case studies presented, this is not a spur of the moment decision, and it is really heart breaking for the child involved, and parents as well.

I have to say, if either of my children had been transgendered, and it was causing them as much trauma as it seems to cause the children involved, I would certainly allow them to transition, but if at all possible, they'd be at a new school.

As far as the whole religious thing goes, here's my favorite gleanings:

Judge not lest ye be judged.

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Love one another as I have loved you.

Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

**DA Devil's Advocate** · September 22nd, 2009, 03:13 PM

The thing about this is if current medical studies that show that there is such a thing as a male brain and a female brain are correct* then being transgendered wouldn't be a matter for therapy or other treatments but literally a birth defect [a mismatch between the mind and the body]. The appropriate treatment then would be gender reassignment surgery to match the body with the mind since it is currently beyond our ability to perform surgery to match the mind with the body.

If that is true would you deny these people the right to corrective surgery to have the body match up to the brain?

*Studies were done by accredited medical teaching universities where "normal" people, male and female, and transgendered people, where given color enhanced brain scans while being exposed to matching stimuli. In a number of cases sited as worthy of further study the scan results of the transgendered brains matched that of the "normal" samples of those corresponding to the gender the TS person imprinted on.

IOW, a male to female transsexual showed normal female brain patterns and structure. A female to male transsexual showed male brain patterns and structure.

http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2009/0..._transgen.html

If you follow this link be sure to follow the links in this article to the abstracts of the studies cited in it.

The testing is far from conclusive but it does suggest that there may be reason to believe that this is a nature, not nurture, situation and people are "born this way". Literally, in the case of a male to female transsexual, a female brain occurring in a male body and the other way round for a female to male transsexual.

**TheImperialCerealKiller** · September 22nd, 2009, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by biteme

that they changed the child or dressed the child up was not the point.
It's having the child start school with previous classmates and pretending to expect them to not recognize the child. I said it not about transgender but how the parents dealt with it, They didn't make it a positive experience for the poor child, They placed the child in a most negative atmosphere, I can't see them having done this as in the best interest of the child.

Ahhhhh- see, I thought you were saying that the 'boy dressed as girl' part was an attention grab for the parents! D'oh.

I'm so glad that wasn't what you were talking about.

I totally agree that it would have been easier for the child to switch schools. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt- maybe the child didn't want to switch, or maybe they couldn't afford to move to a new school zone and the school board wouldn't let them change schools or something. Because you'd think that a pair of parents sensitive enough to honour the kid's wishes would have the sense to at least suggest switching.

**Sister Iroz** · September 22nd, 2009, 07:09 PM

I think 12 is too young to make a life altering decision like this. Now I don't care if he/she wants to make the change when he turns 18 but before that are they really sure they know what they want in life? Ha, I don't even know what I want in life and I'm 49. :)