he wasn't a nice man, therefore we should execute him?
eep.
he wasn't a nice man, therefore we should execute him?
eep.
Sorry Coyote, you didn't say it, but you quoted when Runcire said it as an example:Originally Posted by Coyote
How can you say that no one on death row is truly innocent? We haven't been able to study each and every case being appealed to know that. And like Absynthe said, it's ok to execute someone just because they're not nice? Shall we execute Pete? (sorry, couldn't resist)We have a basic need, an intrinsic desire, to know that evil cannot and will not endure.
And thank you about the thread, I appreciate you all listening to what I have to say and discussing it although you don't agree with me.
IMO, the words in red are where your entire stance is off.
The justice system is NOT about prevention or deterrence. While the laws that make up the system may have some deterrent effect, the justice system is about punishment of those that have gone against the will of a society, and the laws that society has created in order to maintain order.
No criminal ever thinks they will be caught, so no law or punishment acts as a deterrent, none.
I've said before, and will say again that the death penalty is about making sure bad people, who did bad things can't ever do those bad things again. IF, life without parole actually meant life without parole, then I might agree with you that LWOP ensures the same thing, but there are many examples of people having been given life without parole turning up in society and committing the same crimes again.
Athena, something about your many post on this subject in this and other threads bothers me and I'll just ask you directly about it.
Many times you have said that you are bothered by inmates lack of access to DNA testing, yet several times in this thread you have pointed out the possible flaws in DNA testing and forensic evidence. Now there are people claiming that DNA evidence can be "rigged" for lack of a better term. Are you not bothered by the possibility that faulty testing could set a predator free?
Are you not concerned that groups like the innocence project may have used possibly flawed data and testing to make these stories of innocent people being executed fit with their agenda?
Groups like the innocence project were not formed to answer the question "Is there a problem with the death penalty?", they were formed to answer the question "How can we get rid of the death penalty?". They have an agenda and a goal. Meeting that goal is priority one. The means to get there may not be as pure as they would have us believe.
I have personal experience with this group and others like them, as I've posted here before. Even after having a family member executed by the state of Texas, I still believe in the death penalty, flaws and all, just as I believe our justice system is the fairest on the planet.
My opinion of groups like this was set in stone when they ignored Johnny's request to stop filing appeals on his behalf. Johnny's words were that he no longer wanted to live like a caged animal and wanted his execution to be carried out as sentenced. He stated that he was guilty of this crime and that the punishment was just. They ignored his request because "the cause was larger than Johnny".
This placed undue burden, pain, and suffering on Johnny but more importantly his entire family, who had been convicted of nothing.
Since Johnny was executed, the family mourned for a period of time as they would his death by any other means, but now that suffering is over. Their suffering lasted all of 12 years (I believe, not exactly sure on the time) while he sat on death row.
Off topic kinda: I now live very close to where Johnny committed his crimes. Several times I have thought about locating his surviving victim and the family of the woman he killed and simply apologizing to them for what that animal did. I know no one in his imidiate family did or would do something like that and wonder if it is not the "right thing to do". What do you as a group think about that?
R
That's a hard one, Harley.
I faintly remember reading your story about Johnny.
While an apology from you would be an admirable thing to do, and would certainly make you feel good for doing it, I don't know if it would be the "right" thing to do.
What effect would it actually have on the victim's family? Would this apology help give them greater closure? Would they be appreciative of an apology, at this point in time? Or, could this open a wound that has partially healed, and bring back memories that they would rather leave behind them?
Maybe, you could sit down and hand write a short letter of apology, and figure out a way to get it to them, and see how that goes.
Without knowing the victim's family, it's really hard to say if your good intentions would be received as such.
I just don't know.
Harley, Johnny is your family member that was executed? The whole opening old wounds aspect is a big risk, but other than that I think it is an honorable, caring thing to do. I like Dmax's idea of writing a letter. I think you know better than any of us whether it's best, but I personally support the idea. I think I would like to know that someone other than myself thinks about my lost loved one, and understands my pain. I would like to hear what other posters think of your ideaOff topic kinda: I now live very close to where Johnny committed his crimes. Several times I have thought about locating his surviving victim and the family of the woman he killed and simply apologizing to them for what that animal did. I know no one in his imidiate family did or would do something like that and wonder if it is not the "right thing to do". What do you as a group think about that?
I really don't want to hijack this thread, so if you have thought on my Kinda Off Topic, please PM.
Thanks DMax and Solange for your thoughts. Great points Dmax.
R
The logic behind the death penalty is flawed...the faults are more than few and it's proved to be utterly worthless for a myriad of reasons. There's really no point as it's vindictive at best, nothing more...and no one, even the far right, has ever been able to sufficiently justify the existence of execution. 'They deserve to be punished in the same fashion' is fundamentally flawed for obvious reasons.
I don't even know where to start with the American justice system being fair, if I had time I would...a majority of the country's values are not even civil.
25% of the world's prison population? I'll be damned...just what are those other countries doing?America’s criminal justice system has deteriorated to the point that it is a national disgrace. Its irregularities and inequities cut against the notion that we are a society founded on fundamental fairness.
The United States has by far the world’s highest incarceration rate. With 5%of the world’s population, our country now houses nearly 25% of the world’s reported prisoners. We currently incarcerate 756 inmates per 100,000residents, a rate nearly five times the average worldwide of 158 for every 100,000. In addition, more than 5 million people who recently left jail remain under “correctional supervision,” which includes parole, probation, and other community sanctions. All told, about one in every 31 adults in the United States is in prison, in jail, or on supervised release.
http://webb.senate.gov/email/incardo...de_jimwebb.pdf
Innocent or guilty, a prisoner has a better chance of being killed in prison than being executed.
I don't hear any of the bleeding hearts waving flags for those guys. Its only when our government tries to kill someone as punishment that the obfuscatory nutjobs come out of the woodwork slow down the process, costs us tons of money and this renders our system ineffective.
These are the same people that bitch about red tape.
If you look at the number of lives saved by invoking a strong deterrent, it out weighs the whole "maybe we killed an innocent person problem"(cough) outcry. It's for the greater good.
a few tidbits that make sense to me
Imposition of the death penalty is extraordinarily rare. Since 1967, there has been one execution for every 1600 murders, or 0.06%. There have been approximately 560,000 murders and 358 executions from 1967-1996 FBI's Uniform Crime Report (UCR) & Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).
# Approximately 5900 persons have been sentenced to death and 358 executed (from 1973-96). An average of 0.2% of those were executed every year during that time. 56 murderers were executed in 1995, a record number for the modern death penalty. This represented 1.8% of those on death row. The average time on death row for those 56 executed - 11 years, 2 months ("Capital Punishment 1995", BJS, 1996), an all time record of longevity, breaking the 1994 record of 10 years, 2 months.
Assume that all murderers would instantly die upon murdering. Murderers would then kill only if they wished to die themselves. Murder/suicide is an extremely small component of all murders. Therefore, if a swift and sure death penalty was universally applied to our worst criminals, it is logically conclusive that the death penalty would be a significant deterrent and that many innocent lives would be saved.http://www.prodeathpenalty.com/DP.html
The highest murder rate in Houston (Harris County), Texas occurred in 1981, with 701 murders. Texas resumed executions in 1982. Since that time, Houston (Harris County) has executed more murderers than any other city or state (except Texas) AND has seen the greatest reduction in murder, 701 in 1981 down to 261 in 1996 - a 63% reduction, representing a 270% differential! (FBI, UCR, 1982 & Houston Chronicle, 2/1/97, pg. 31A).
If you look at the number of lives saved by invoking a strong deterrent, it out weighs the whole "maybe we killed an innocent person problem"(cough) outcry. It's for the greater good.
"Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq
I understand the point you're trying to make - but I don't think this is an 'apple-apple' comparison. Now, if the state sanctioned or promoted the prison-yard stabbings the comparison would be fair. They don't - it's not.Innocent or guilty, a prisoner has a better chance of being killed in prison than being executed.
I don't hear any of the bleeding hearts waving flags for those guys.
And if that makes me a 'bleeding heart' (Ha!) then I'll proudly wear the label like a mantle.
It is apples to apples. its not a matter of being peomoted. it happens and maybe an innocent is dying there. Right?.. An innocent killed by our government by being wrongly planted in prison? LOL where is the outcry?
The fact is people die in prison and there is little support for them.
If people are executed by the government for the crimes they committed, there is always a huge outcry.
either way a person dies. and only the invoked DP is scrutinized closely.
Sorry about that thing on your chest. embarrasing isnt it?
"Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq
Where did you get the idea that it's a good deterrent????If you look at the number of lives saved by invoking a strong deterrent, it out weighs the whole "maybe we killed an innocent person problem"(cough) outcry. It's for the greater good.
The embarrassing thing is that nothing you said in the quote above is rational. Sorry to be so blunt, but you don't even make any sense.It is apples to apples. its not a matter of being peomoted. it happens and maybe an innocent is dying there. Right?.. An innocent killed by our government by being wrongly planted in prison? LOL where is the outcry?
The fact is people die in prison and there is little support for them.
If people are executed by the government for the crimes they committed, there is always a huge outcry.
either way a person dies. and only the invoked DP is scrutinized closely.
Sorry about that thing on your chest. embarrasing isnt it?
Last edited by solange82200; September 13th, 2009 at 01:15 PM.
It is not a deterrent, but if it were aggressively applied and enforced, it would be.
Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
That lift your vassal hands against my head
And threat the glory of my precious crown.
It is apples to apples.
The fact is people die in prison and there is little support for them.
If people are executed by the government for the crimes they committed, there is always a huge outcry.
either way a person dies. and only the invoked DP is scrutinized closely.
Sorry about that thing on your chest. embarrassing isn't it?
How about that Solange? ha! I pasted something accidentally.
In other words why is it not a heated debate when an innocent person gets murdered in prison. The government put them there.
"Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq
I know you addressed this to Solange.
But if I may.In other words why is it not a heated debate when an innocent person gets murdered in prison. The government put them there.
I believe the debate is about society's approval of death as a penalty.
In the 'murder in the exercise yard' scenario society disapproves and works to punish the guilty. In the 'death chamber' scenario society sanctions and executes the deed.
The decedent is well, dead in either case - but as a victim in one and a convict in the other.
I am not philosophically opposed to the DP - but there are issues that concern me - not the least of which is that apparently innocent people have been subjected to this penalty. I would favor it a bit more if I were absolutely convinced that DAs and police NEVER played politics in seeking/preparing cases. And the fact that 99% don't - isn't enough for me.
I agree that 'the other side' uses red herrings to try and defeat the DP - but I don't think the issue I stated above is one of them -
As for the 'thing on my chest'? big woop
It is absolutely about prevention. The steps taken regarding prevention and punishment are very similar. In fact, punishment is often a part of prevention. The fact that we heavily consider an individual's likelihood to reoffend in both sentencing and parole hearings PROVES that prevention is the goal and that punishment is a tactic used to contribute to prevention.
Would you care to cite some examples?IF, life without parole actually meant life without parole, then I might agree with you that LWOP ensures the same thing, but there are many examples of people having been given life without parole turning up in society and committing the same crimes again.
In the meantime, let's remember that 2008 saw the lowest number of executions in a decade at a mere 42. What are the odds, based on the evidence you dig up about the number of LWOP sentences that have resulted in release (or escape, I suppose), that these 42 being executed might have gotten out had they not been?
Before, guaranteed access to DNA testing was what I considered to be a step in the right direction - a compromise, so to speak. The news that DNA evidence can be fabricated is relatively new. The Israelis pulled this off within the last 6 months. This recent discovery has changed my opinion (as my opinion is one to change as new information comes to light). While I still think guaranteed DNA evidence is a step in the right direction, it's no longer good enough to justify the continued use of the death penalty.Athena, something about your many post on this subject in this and other threads bothers me and I'll just ask you directly about it.
Many times you have said that you are bothered by inmates lack of access to DNA testing, yet several times in this thread you have pointed out the possible flaws in DNA testing and forensic evidence. Now there are people claiming that DNA evidence can be "rigged" for lack of a better term. Are you not bothered by the possibility that faulty testing could set a predator free?
Despite your personal experience with the Innocence Project, they were not formed to eliminate the death penalty. In fact, a great number of cases they take up aren't even death penalty cases. They have made no official statement (from what I can find) regarding the death penalty and, from what I've seen, the death penalty is not so much as mentioned specifically on their website. What is?Are you not concerned that groups like the innocence project may have used possibly flawed data and testing to make these stories of innocent people being executed fit with their agenda?
Groups like the innocence project were not formed to answer the question "Is there a problem with the death penalty?", they were formed to answer the question "How can we get rid of the death penalty?". They have an agenda and a goal. Meeting that goal is priority one. The means to get there may not be as pure as they would have us believe
I have personal experience with this group and others like them, as I've posted here before. Even after having a family member executed by the state of Texas, I still believe in the death penalty, flaws and all, just as I believe our justice system is the fairest on the planet.
• Eyewitness Identification
• False Confessions
• DNA Testing Access
• Evidence Preservation
• Forensic Oversight
• Innocence Commissions
• Exoneree Compensation
These are things that can affect ANY case. They were formed to battle the flaws in the system, not battle capital punishment. Furthermore, they are non-profit. Until you can prove otherwise, I'm going to disregard the assertion that they have an agenda.
So, based on this premise, I am far more concerned about the paid prosecutors that have bosses breathing down their neck to get convictions, who often have political aspirations, manipulating evidence to acquire said convictions (as we've already seen happen) than I am worried about a non-profit that's mission is to ensure justice is carried out (as we have never seen happen) doing the same to suit their alleged "agenda".
Here are my issues with this portion of your post, assuming things actually went down like this (not accusing you of lying, but it wouldn't be the first time a person has embellished his personal experience a bit to support his position, which is the problem with citing unverifiable personal experience):My opinion of groups like this was set in stone when they ignored Johnny's request to stop filing appeals on his behalf. Johnny's words were that he no longer wanted to live like a caged animal and wanted his execution to be carried out as sentenced. He stated that he was guilty of this crime and that the punishment was just. They ignored his request because "the cause was larger than Johnny".
This placed undue burden, pain, and suffering on Johnny but more importantly his entire family, who had been convicted of nothing.
Since Johnny was executed, the family mourned for a period of time as they would his death by any other means, but now that suffering is over. Their suffering lasted all of 12 years (I believe, not exactly sure on the time) while he sat on death row.
1.) You judge an entire faction of non-profits by the actions of one (presumably rogue) agent/office.
2.) In your own experience, the murderer would've rather died than remain "caged". If you truly believe punishment trumps prevention on the list of justice system priorities, why would you support the easy way out for the murderer?
3.) 12.75 years is the average length of time spent on death row between sentencing and execution. What proof do you have that the murderer would have been executed any sooner had the Innocence Project (or whatever similar non-profit) not gotten involved? I understand that it's a logical conclusion, but not much concludes logically when it comes to death row.
4.) Are you suggesting that the family of the murderer should be a consideration?
All in all, it still boils down to the fact that you can justify the execution of innocent civilians because, to your knowledge, they are few and far between, and I'm not and never will be.
"Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"
Malq, when I said that you didn't make any sense, I meant that your argument is weak. If I was somehow arguing that we shouldn't improve the justice system as a whole, then maybe you could say that I don't care about innocent people getting killed in prison. And although obviously we don't want that to happen, the solution isn't as clearcut or easy. We have to lock up criminals to keep them off the streets, the only solution is to make sure we do all we can to sentence only those that are truly guilty. As far as us a society executing criminals, there is an easy solution to that. Just don't. Give them life without parole. That argument you made that somehow we are wrong to oppose the DP because we aren't as "outraged" about the possibly innocent people that get killed in prison by other prisoners is not logical to me. Maybe others disagree, but that's just my opinion.It is apples to apples.
The fact is people die in prison and there is little support for them.
If people are executed by the government for the crimes they committed, there is always a huge outcry.
either way a person dies. and only the invoked DP is scrutinized closely.
Sorry about that thing on your chest. embarrassing isn't it?
How about that Solange? ha! I pasted something accidentally.
In other words why is it not a heated debate when an innocent person gets murdered in prison. The government put them there.
Ok now I get where you are coming from.
So if an innocent person is arrested and held in prison for life, what is the difference between holding a person against their will and getting murdered as a result of that, and going ahead and killing him as punishment?
"Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq
hmm good point, but it always gets back to what is acceptable.
A little collateral damage is almost always a side effect of a unique system to protect the whole. Look at health care. it is completely messed up but we need it and there will always be mistakes.
It is subjective as to what is acceptable. If you want it to be perfect, then we will have to abolish it to make you happy. I am a realist and will let a few die to protect the rest of the nation. My guess is that we are talking about maybe 5 people that have honestly been executed. I know a lot have been exonerated but really what were the circumstances there. from what I have read the were dna specific which does not mean the did not do it.
The amount of people here we are talking about is absolute peanuts compared to the big picture.
However, purists will surely kill the death penalty. It is almost dead already.
"Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq
You first!
"Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"
I already told you. Both are horrible to have happen, but one can be easily prevented. You are really reaching here. It's like you have your mind made up and are looking for arguments to justify it, when it should be the other way around. You should be looking at the arguments and THEN making up your mind.Ok now I get where you are coming from.
So if an innocent person is arrested and held in prison for life, what is the difference between holding a person against their will and getting murdered as a result of that, and going ahead and killing him as punishment?
And as far as your willingness to murder an innocent person for the sake of the rest of society, murder is murder. What makes you any better than the criminals you profess to hate, technically speaking?
You already have your mind made up too, and aren't going to change it. I'm tired of hearing the line being towed around here, that only the pro DP people here are being "stubborn" and not hearing the other side of the debate. Such a democrat thing to say.
As for one being easily prevented, that's just not true, either.
The bottom line for me is this, and there is no scientific basis behind it, or statistical reasoning. I've been there. Been to prison, and have seen guys there for murder living it up. Prison is an institution, and it's not pleasant, but it's not horrible either. You get fed, you get showers, television, shrinks, church, outside play, hell, you get to play 11 on 11 football every damn day, soccer, cards, whatever. You get to socialize, get married, have visits every week where you get your dicks sucked, fucked, you get to get handjobs from women guards all the time, you get dirty magazines, you get pen and paper to write, books....there are a lot of people having fun in there.
The whole thing wrong with continually saying the DP isn't a deterrent for criminals, is that neither is fucking prison, people.
Criminals are going to do their things, rolling the dice that they will not be caught. Ok? And prison isn't good enough for some people. There are those that deserve worse in our society, and that is why we have the DP.
I suppose you haven't been around enough to notice that Solange used to be rabidly pro death penalty. She and I have been rounds about the issue in the past. Even prior to that, I was rabidly pro death penalty.
Tell me, how many of you that are currently pro DP came to that conclusion after being rabidly anti-DP for years? I bet not a single one of you. Why? Because, when all things are considered rationally, the shift only goes one direction. This is because the argument in favor of capital punishment is purely an emotional one, while there are tangible, evidence-based arguments in favor of the alternative.
So, if you keep hearing that pro DP people are the only ones being stubborn, it's because that's the reality of the situation. Solange and I are speaking as people who were swayed by evidence to adopt a position contrary to our original one, even as it directly contradicts our feelings about the situation.
And, if you want to base your opinion on personal experience, that's fine. But, if the prison(s?) you were in was a cakewalk, wouldn't the natural solution to the issue be to make prison less comfortable for murderers? Again, only 42 murderers were executed in the US last year. The other few thousand are still livin' it up. So, your position still doesn't really address the issue.
Last edited by Athena; September 16th, 2009 at 11:15 AM. Reason: Wrong code. :P
"Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"
Thank you Athena for pointing that out. I know Im not perfect or always right, but I do try to keep an open mind.
Not to say that this article proves anything, but I just happened upon it and thought it was kind of fitting to the discussion:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/09/15/...ef=igoogle_cnn
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...00/24mwe1t.jpg
Silvahalo68:
"She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."
Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.
Did you not read what I wrote? I am not murdering anyone.
"Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq
Well then, I guess you and solange's opinions are easily swayed from time to time, eh. ;)
Well as long as you want to make mass assumptions and pass them off as fact, bet on, then. If it works for you......Tell me, how many of you that are currently pro DP came to that conclusion after being rabidly anti-DP for years? I bet not a single one of you.
Bullshit, and you can say it, but it doesn't make it so. You're basing your opinion off of two things. Cost. Collateral damage. Am I right? Cost, it costs a ton to keep inmates up, and build more prisons to house the growing number of inmates. Due to overpopulation, we are letting out violent criminals all the time. As with the innocent people getting killed, your comment down below on making the prisons more awful is plain out fucking naive, and the rhetoric of an idealist in junior college. There are human rights groups who will never let that happen. Why can't we have it the other way, and fix things on the level of the courts, and the lawful process and it's procedures. WOuldn't that make more sense, so we could get it right, and have a much more accurate reading on who should receive the DP? Because if that happens, and your argument boils down to simple cost, then that's just pitiful, to let money weigh in on decisions on whether to execute violent criminals who deserve it.Why? Because, when all things are considered rationally, the shift only goes one direction.
The DP is not perfect, and it could use change, but to abolish it is retarded.
Bullshit. That's such a cop out. Tangible? Fuck that. When the criminals are killed, they cannot get out later due to overpopulation, thay cannot escape, or get out after a life sentence, and kill again. So we would never know. They're fucking dead.This is because the argument in favor of capital punishment is purely an emotional one, while there are tangible, evidence-based arguments in favor of the alternative.
You keep chalking it up to emotional, using that word as a buzzword to illustrate your point, as an attack. Don't forget, you went to that well in this very thread, as did solange, and the entire ARTICLE was used to get people here emotionally charged about the poor innocent man. Please.
It goes way beyond emotional. Tangible is when someone's family is left with their throats slashed, or kids limping because someone shoves their meatstick into their asshole after they kill mom and dad. Tangible. There are men and women who deserve to die, Athena, and we are a government, and we have reserved the right to kill these perps as a means to keep peace, and maintain it.
Wait. It IS the situation, or is LIKELY the situation. Because before, you were just going on a bet.So, if you keep hearing that pro DP people are the only ones being stubborn, it's because that's the reality of the situation.
Actually, solange was swayed emotionally. I know she agrees with you at every juncture, and you're going to feed that, but I haven't seen that be the case here.Solange and I are speaking as people who were swayed by <i>evidence</i> to adopt a position contrary to our original one, even as it directly contradicts our <i>feelings</i> about the situation.
When personal experience dictates a fact of the matter, then yes. It would be different if ol' Mommy got killed, so I was for the DP. But when I've seen both sides of the matter, and I understand that criminals are not punished accordingly to fit their crimes, then yes, I do think there should be laws that mandate death for those deserving.And, if you want to base your opinion on personal experience, that's fine.
Wait, babe. My position doesn't ADDRESS the issue, or the issue doesn't properly address what I'd like to see more of.Again, only 42 murderers were executed in the US last year. The other few thousand are still livin' it up. So, your position still doesn't really address the issue.
The answer is that they should start killing more motherfuckers, Athena. Not all murderers. So your stat is deceptive, and does not properly address the issue. You're somehow saying I say only murderers, and all murderers should get the DP. No. I mean, violent, and clearly unredeemable offenders. And yes, if a jury decides that they are deserving of death, after all the facts are presented, then kill them the next fucking month.
You still talk about your stats, and evidence, that the DP is not a deterrent. I'll say it again. What makes that moot, and quite frankly useless, is the fact that neither is prison.
Why don't you ever want to concentrate on fixing the courts' side of things, girls? Why not try to get it right, instead of saying: Dont kill anyone, and lets go smoke some weed at a college frathouse. Fight the power!
Of course I read what you wrote lol. I find it ironic how so many right-leaning folks who claim that our government is so incompetent and corrupt, are willing to give them the power to execute it's own citizens. They always complain that the government screws up the post office, medicare, social security, everything, but yet somehow they think that they run the justice system well enough that we give them the power to literally kill people? And Im not even trying to direct this at you guys in this forum, I have no idea what some of you think politically, this point just came to mind as I was thinking how fucked up the legal system can be, and yet how much power they hold.
I was just reading on cnn.com how they think Garrido (the guy who held Jaycee for 18 years) may be responsible for the disappearances of two other girls in the 80's. One of those girls was 9 years old, the same age as my son. The first thing I thought was I hope they execute this bastard. He so fucking deserves it, as much as anyone can. But I have to remind myself it isn't worth the problems associated with having the death penalty, as good as it would make me feel or as much as he deserves it. Im mostly to the point where Ive run out of arguments and am just typing off the top of my head, which is why Im blabbering lol
Two things Doc. Athena stated already that the cost was not the main reason she is against the DP. You DID read what she said I hope?Actually, solange was swayed emotionally. I know she agrees with you at every juncture, and you're going to feed that, but I haven't seen that be the case here.
And also, what do you mean by the above quote? That I agree with her at every juncture? Are you saying I always agree with Athena? If so, that isnt true. And there is proof on this site of that lol.
And about the whole "easily swayed" comment, that is the most foolish thing Ive ever heard (okay, Im exaggerating there, Ill admit). To me the most ignorant people are the ones who never change their mind on ANYTHING, no matter how wrong they are. It's the ones whom I already know how they are going to respond to a post before they even say anything, because they are so utterly predictable and prone to seeing every single issue through their own little idealogical or political prism. For the record, I dont see you like that, but that whole "easily swayed" comment was way off base, in my humble little opinion
Last edited by solange82200; September 15th, 2009 at 11:00 PM.
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Silvahalo68:
"She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."
Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.
No one is saying that. Not me, anyway. I'm saying fix the system, not worship it and give it free reign. But just because the system is faulty, not perfect, doesn't mean we get to just give out passes to uber bad guys, eh?
This is the problem. Your first, natural instinct is clear, and correct. You have trained yourself to think: oh wait, what if an innocent man dies. What about the cost. I. should. think. rationally.I was just reading on cnn.com how they think Garrido (the guy who held Jaycee for 18 years) may be responsible for the disappearances of two other girls in the 80's. One of those girls was 9 years old, the same age as my son. The first thing I thought was I hope they execute this bastard. He so fucking deserves it, as much as anyone can. But I have to remind myself it isn't worth the problems associated with having the death penalty, as good as it would make me feel or as much as he deserves it. Im mostly to the point where Ive run out of arguments
No, your first impression, natural thought was the right one. This man deserves to fucking die.
[/QUOTE]
Two things Doc. Athena stated already that the cost was not the main reason she is against the DP. You DID read what she said I hope?
And also, what do you mean by the above quote? That I agree with her at every juncture? Are you saying I always agree with Athena? If so, that isnt true. And there is proof on this site of that lol.
And about the whole "easily swayed" comment, that is the most foolish thing Ive ever heard (okay, Im exaggerating there, Ill admit). To me the most ignorant people are the ones who never change their mind on ANYTHING, no matter how wrong they are. It's the ones whom I already know how they are going to respond to a post before they even say anything, because they are so utterly predictable and prone to seeing every single issue through their own little idealogical or political prism. For the record, I dont see you like that, but that whole "easily swayed" comment was way off base, in my humble little opinion
It isn't Doc, it's Mr., lol. Everyone makes that mistake. I just want to make sure, with DOC, no one mistakes me for that piece of shit, Doc Salvador, heh.
But no, I shouldn't have said you agree with her every juncture, that was a shot, I'm sorry. I sincerely apologize, it was kind of an inside thing Athena and I have going, where she blatantly tries to sway people to her side, and muddy the waters with ridiculous semantics.I just laughed out loud, btw. I so adore that woman, you have no idea, but when she talks about these things, I would like to give HER the DP.
And the easily swayed comment was a silly jab, not intended seriously. She gets those little buggers in on me all the time, lol, I was just returning the favor. She'll get it, and I'm sorry it seemed sincere with you, solange. I was teasing.
Apology accepted, Mr. lol
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...00/24mwe1t.jpg
Silvahalo68:
"She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."
Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but had to point out that I have spent my whole life formulating my opinion of the death penalty. It is not based on what you think or varied opinions in this thread. I have amassed a lifetime of info on the subject and had tons of discussions about it elsewhere. Frankly for you to convince me to change my mind, you would have groundbreaking shit. That is not ignorance or being wrong. It's a stance based on input gained in my lifetime. It's ok to debate your own stance, but to expect others to change their mind based on your input, that's ignorant.
Oh, and of course peoples arguments flow through their ideological or political prism. And they should until proven otherwise. Its the makeup of the person molded through a life of decision making.
"Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937
You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq
Kind of like going into a thread involving a black person reporting racism, and automatically assuming that they are playing the race card, just because you fall on the right side of the political spectrum? Those are the kind of things that bother me. Not so much for someone to have a predictable opinion on something like say, abortion or even the dp. Of course being a conservative or liberal you are more likely to feel a certain way about those issues. I just get irked when someone automatically accuses Obama of having czars, for example, yet they had no problem with Bush's 47 czars. When people take sides on an issue not because they really believe it, or because the facts justify it, but more because it fits their agenda at the moment. That is what I meant in my commentOh, and of course peoples arguments flow through their ideological or political prism. And they should until proven otherwise. Its the makeup of the person molded through a life of decision making.
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...00/24mwe1t.jpg
Silvahalo68:
"She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."
Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.
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