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Thread: I used to be pro-death penalty 100 percent, until I read about Todd Willingham

  1. #91
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    Texas Gov. Rick Perry has shaken up a state commission that is probing whether a man executed in 2004 belonged on death row. Perry's move forces the commission to delay a scheduled hearing on the case.

    The governor acted two days before the commission was to hear from an expert who has cast doubt about the quality of the arson investigation that helped convict Cameron Todd Willingham of murder in the deaths of his three daughters in a fire at their home.

    Death-penalty opponents say a thorough review of the Willingham case may force Texas to admit that it executed an innocent man. The Texas governor and others, however, say they remain convinced of Willingham's guilt.

    Perry replaced the chairman of the Texas Forensic Science Commission and declined to reappoint two commission members. The commission was to hear testimony Friday from Craig Beyler, an arson investigation expert. He wrote the latest of three reports critical of the testimony that helped prosecutors convict Willingham of murder in 1992.

    The governor's office told CNN the moves were a routine replacement of members whose terms had expired.

    In Ardmore, Oklahoma, however, where Willingham's family lives, his stepmother said she was "shocked and disappointed" by the abrupt postponement of Friday's hearing.

    "What good is it going to be having a commission if they don't have the freedom to investigate and find out what really happened?" Eugena Willingham asked.

    Barry Scheck, co-founder of the Innocence Project -- which assists prisoners who could be proven innocent through DNA testing -- called the governor's decision "troubling." He compared it to a series of resignations and firings that happened one night in October 1973 as President Richard Nixon sought to thwart an investigation into the Watergate scandal.

    "This is like the Saturday night massacre," Scheck said in a statement. "Rather than let this important hearing go forward ... the Governor fires the independent chairman and two other members of this Commission. It's like Nixon firing [special Watergate prosecutor] Archibald Cox to avoid turning over the Watergate tapes."

    The Innocence Project examined Willingham's case in 2006, and concluded that "expert arson analysis shows an innocent man was executed." It referred the case to the Texas Forensic Science Commission.
    http://edition.cnn.com/2009/CRIME/10...ecution.probe/
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  2. #92
    Count CPL CHUD's Avatar
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    I've re-assessed my view on the death penalty and am now against it as it stands. Unless it gets a wild reconstruction it is basically worthless. Some criminals commit more violent crimes in jail to get the death penalty as kind of a "legalized suicide".

    And I'm actually leaning more and more towards releasing all nonviolent criminals from exorbitant prison sentences and instead forcing them into long rehabilitation programs; the same way a parent would treat a naughty child. As it stands we are pouring billions of dollars into systems that yield terrible return per capital.

  3. #93
    Grand Baron solange82200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CPL CHUD View Post
    As it stands we are pouring billions of dollars into systems that yield terrible return per capital.
    Well freaking said!!!!!

    And Morningstar, I cannot believe what I am reading. I cannot believe Texas would stoop so fucking low. I am disgusted. Disgusted isn't even a strong enough word to describe how I feel.

    "The governor has made his position on this case clear, and has said that he has not seen anything that would cause him to think that the decisions made by the courts of Texas was not correct," Cesinger said. "Beyond that, the business of the commission is up to the commission."
    How could anyone come to that fucking conclusion?????? Arson experts are saying it's wrong. YOU Governor Perry are not an arson expert. What the fuck is wrong with you??? Typical. Real fucking typical
    Last edited by solange82200; October 2nd, 2009 at 01:23 PM.
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    Silvahalo68:

    "She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."


    Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.

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    Why take any chances? Just get rid of all of them. That's what I say, anyway.
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    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
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    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    Grand Baron solange82200's Avatar
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    Guys, I think Gov. Rick Perry and Todd Willingham were mentioned on The Rachel Maddow show last night (Pete B.'s favorite show, I know!). Im going to watch it and report back, stay tuned!
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...00/24mwe1t.jpg

    Silvahalo68:

    "She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."


    Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.

  6. #96
    Grand Baron solange82200's Avatar
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    Ok, this was on Rachel Maddow, and now one of those commission members that got reappointed is speaking out, saying he was pressured by aides of the gov to drop the investigation. This is the same idiot who was flirting with the idea of seceding the union. Fucking idiot
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...00/24mwe1t.jpg

    Silvahalo68:

    "She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."


    Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.

  7. #97
    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solange82200 View Post
    Guys, I think Gov. Rick Perry and Todd Willingham were mentioned on The Rachel Maddow show last night (Pete B.'s favorite show, I know!). Im going to watch it and report back, stay tuned!
    This programme is banned in Peteland.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  8. #98
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    Ex-relative: Executed inmate confessed to murders

    A former brother-in-law of a man executed in 2004 for killing his three children says the death row inmate had confessed to his ex-wife that he set the fire that killed their daughters.

    The statement from Ronnie Kuykendall is included in two affidavits released this week by the city of Corsicana in response to media requests amid suggestions that Cameron Todd Willingham may have been innocent.

    Willingham was executed on Feb. 17, 2004, after being convicted of capital murder for the 1991 deaths of the children, 2-year-old Amber and 1-year-old twins Karmon and Kameron. Prosecutors said he set fire to the family's Corsicana home while the children were inside.

    Forensic scientists have called into question arson evidence used to convict Willingham, who maintained his innocence until his death. The prosecutor who argued the case still believes Willingham is guilty but acknowledges it would have been hard to win a death sentence without the arson finding.

    One of the affidavits is based on a statement Kuykendall gave to Kirby Hill, then an investigator with the district attorney's office in Navarro County.

    Kuykendall said his sister Stacy, Willingham's former wife, called her family together on Feb. 8, 2004, to tell them about a visit with her ex-husband, the Corsicana Daily Sun reported.

    "Stacy asked all of us to come into the living room, at this time she started crying and told us about her visit with Willingham," Ronnie Kuykendall said in the affidavit.

    "She stated that after visiting with him for about one hour and 45 minutes he told her that he had set the fire because he knew that she was going to leave him in January (1992) like she had said and that she was going to divorce him and he figured if he did this she would stay with him and she could get her tubes untied and that they could start another family and that he wanted her to write the board a letter because he did not want to die," according to Ronnie Kuykendall.

    Stacy Kuykendall has declined to talk to the media since her ex-husband's execution.

    The second affidavit is from a neighbor who this month gave a statement about what he saw on the morning of the December 1991 fire.

    Tony Ayala told Corsicana police Detective Seth Fuller on Oct. 6 that he saw Willingham packing his vehicle and moving it out of the carport as smoke poured out of the house.

    Ayala told Fuller that he tried to tell police in 1991 what he saw, but he was rebuffed.
    http://www.buffalonews.com/260/story/829633.html

  9. #99
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    well, people can say pretty much anything they want to now; after all, Cameron Willingham isn't around to contradict them, is he?
    "If you can't live without me, why aren't you DEAD?"" cb said this to an ex
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  10. #100
    Grand Baron solange82200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    This programme is banned in Peteland.
    I know, I can picture you now all dressed in camouflage in your underground bunker, with your five semi-automatics, seven rifles, and fifty cans of spam, listening to Glenn and Rush on the radio over... and over.... and over....
    I cant for the life of me figure out how you get internet down there so you can get on DD!

    As far as this new confession, I just have to say I'm a little suspicious. How convenient this pops up now just as the heat is on Gov. Rick Perry. Money talks, dont it Gov?
    http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a2...00/24mwe1t.jpg

    Silvahalo68:

    "She really outta get that thing removed. The only beautiful life there was the one she took."


    Because only in the world of make-believe can one define success as the failure to put behind bars anyone responsible for the death of Caylee Anthony.

  11. #101
    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by solange82200 View Post
    I know, I can picture you now all dressed in camouflage in your underground bunker, with your five semi-automatics, seven rifles, and fifty cans of spam, listening to Glenn and Rush on the radio over... and over.... and over.... ?
    Marian McPartland's Piano Jazz is the only programme I regularly listen to on the radio......and I cannot eat Spam because my pancreas is fucking gay.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  12. #102
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    Texans: Did we execute an innocent man?

    (CNN) -- A Texas state board revisited questions surrounding a 2004 execution on Friday amid warnings from critics of the controversial execution that the panel is trying to bury its own critical review of the case.

    Cameron Todd Willingham was executed in 2004, 13 years after a fire killed his three daughters. Prosecutors argued that Willingham deliberately set the 1991 blaze -- but three reviews of the evidence by outside experts have found the fire should not have been ruled arson.

    The last of those reports was ordered by the Texas Forensic Sciences Commission, which has been looking into Willingham's execution since 2008. But a September 2009 shake-up by Texas Gov. Rick Perry has kept that panel from

    reviewing the report, and the commission's new chairman has ordered a review of its operating rules. Critics say that may kill the probe.

    "They are attempting permanently to keep the investigation from continuing and moving on, and I do believe it's because they don't like the direction the evidence is leading," Willingham's cousin, Pat Cox, said Thursday.

    The Forensic Science Commission's chairman is now John Bradley, an Austin-area district attorney with a reputation as a staunch supporter of the death penalty. Bradley has pledged to state lawmakers that the Willingham investigation "absolutely" will continue -- but said the panel needs better rules to guide its work, and could not say when the Willingham issue would move forward.

    Thursday, he told CNN that the concerns of Willingham's supporters are based on "a lot of misinformation."

    "I think that's being used very much as a side issue to politicize, through some New York lawyers, the work of the commission," Bradley said. "The commission has been very clear that the commission is going to address the merits of the Willingham case."

    The panel meets again Friday in Houston, and one of the items on its agenda is a legal opinion arguing that the panel has "relatively narrow investigative jurisdiction." The unsigned memorandum argues that the commission's mandate covers only cases on which a state-accredited forensic laboratory worked.

    But because Texas started accrediting crime labs in 2003, Cox and others who have backed his family say that would mean cases such as Willingham's and that of another inmate, Ernest Willis, would be dropped. State Sen. Rodney Ellis, who pushed for the commission's creation, calls the opinion flawed.

    The Forensic Sciences Commission "was operating within the language and intent of the law when it determined that it had jurisdiction to investigate the case the first time in August 2008," Ellis said in a written statement to CNN.
    http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/07/23/....html?iref=NS1

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by malq View Post
    I am completely willing to sacrifice the small innocent percentage that may be accused and actually killed to actually punish those who truly deserve to die.

    This arguement that someone innocent may die, has all but killed the death penalty system. Think of all those waiting on death row or have commuted sentences that committed horrific crimes. Thousands of them.. would you kill a few innocents to ensure all those assholes die?
    Would you? I hear you all say that every day on here but no one is willing to back it up with a little innocent blood.
    That's what it takes folks. Like the men who die building dams and bridges. Thirty men fell to their death building the Golden Gate Bridge. Did we stop building bridges? Its called a sacrifice. if you don't like that free everyone. It will never be perfect.

    My problem is I cannot sacrifice an innocent person. I would not kill an innocent person just so I could kill a guilty person. Why should an innocent person pay for his life because someone else committed a heinous crime? What if YOU were that innocent person, or your innocent family member who had to die in order for some guilty person to die?
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  14. #104
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    I think one of the biggest risks is that we might kill someone who is innocent, but also capable of providing material evidence against another person. Consider, if a witness could be appropriately framed, then the true killer could not only avoid focus, but have one of the key pieces of evidence against him wiped out and unable to be brought to court.
    "Attempted murder, I mean really. Do they give a Nobel Prize for attempted physics?" -- Sideshow Bob

  15. #105
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    Cameron Todd Willingham Exoneration Was Written But Never Filed By Texas Judge
    A Texas judge who reviewed the controversial 2004 execution of Cameron Todd Willingham planned to posthumously exonerate the father who was put to death for killing his three daughters in a house fire.

    Scientific experts who debunked the arson evidence used against Willingham at his 1992 trial and a jailhouse witness who recanted his shaky testimony convinced District Court Judge Charlie Baird in 2010 that "Texas wrongfully convicted" him. But Baird's order clearing Willingham's name never became official, because a higher court halted the posthumous inquiry while it considered whether the judge had authority to examine the capital case.

    While waiting for permission to finish the case from the Third Court of Appeals, Baird put together the document that "orders the exoneration of Cameron Todd Willingham for murdering his three daughters," because of "overwhelming, credible and reliable evidence" presented during a one-day hearing in Austin in October 2010.

    "You can't do anything for Willingham except clear his name," Baird told The Huffington Post. "When they tried Willingham, I'm convinced that everyone worked in good faith. The problem is that up until the execution, everything had changed so dramatically that you realized the science relied upon at trial was not reliable enough to take a man's life."

    Baird's intended order never came to light because the court of appeals criticized his handling of the case and prevented him from resuming work on it before he left the bench at the end of 2010 after choosing not to seek re-election. No one asked him for it after the court of appeals blocked him, he said.

    Baird, now an attorney in private practice, said he was moved to share the document with HuffPost after reading about Carlos DeLuna, a Texan who a Columbia University team said this week may have been wrongly executed in 1989.

    The 18-page unissued order closely examined the arson evidence presented during the trial, including claims that investigators found patterns on the floor where an accelerant was poured and traces of it on the porch. But Baird said he was persuaded by other experts that the initial investigative techniques were out of date. The judge faulted Gov. Rick Perry and the state Court of Criminal Appeals, because they "ignored" exonerating evidence in 2004.




    Baird, a Democrat, is now running for district attorney in Travis County, which includes Austin. The Willingham opinion is undated. Baird said he wrote it in the weeks after the Oct. 14, 2010, hearing. District court planner Kasey Hoke and court administrator Debra Hale told HuffPost they remember him preparing it in late 2010.

    With Baird pushed to the sidelines that year, the fire that tore through Willingham home in Corsicana on Dec. 23, 1991, remained on the books as a triple homicide. Willingham escaped the burning house, but his three daughters -- a 2-year-old and 1-year-old twins -- were trapped inside and died from smoke inhalation. (His wife was out running errands for Christmas.)

    Investigators concluded the blaze had been deliberately set with an accelerant. Two weeks after the fire, they arrested Willingham, a 23-year-old high school dropout with a rap sheet that included shoplifting and driving under the influence.

    Willingham, maintaining his innocence, turned down a plea deal offering him life behind bars. At his August 1992 trial, the two fire investigators testified for the prosecution that Willingham torched his own home. The prosecution also called a jailhouse snitch, Johnny Webb, to the stand. Webb claimed that Willingham admitted in jail after his arrest that he killed his children. The jury convicted him in about an hour.

    State and federal courts upheld Willingham's conviction, and in 2003 the U.S. Supreme Court declined to get involved. During the appeals process, Baird was on the Circuit Court of Appeals that twice ruled against Willingham.

    But doubts about Willingham's guilt emerged. In 2000, Webb recanted his testimony. Forensic science had evolved since his trial, too. In 2004, Gerald Hurst, a chemist, released a report days before Willingham's execution that said the testimony of the fire investigators was wrong and that the fire was accidental. The report was rushed to Gov. Perry, but he denied a request for a reprieve, allowing the state to put Willingham to death by lethal injection on Feb. 17, 2004.

    (The New Yorker and the Chicago Tribune had written extensively about Willingham's case prior to Baird's involvement.)

    Baird's proposed order -- which drew upon Hurst's report and the findings of other experienced arson investigators -- came as a welcome surprise to Willingham's relatives and attorneys, who continue to believe he was innocent.

    "I'm very thankful he did this," said Eugenia Willingham, Todd Willingham's stepmother. "I'm sure this will have a good impact for Todd. I raised that boy and I believed him," Willingham told HuffPost. "He adored those children. I never thought he could have done that."

    The fire occurred in Navarro County, but lawyers for Willingham's family brought the case to Baird under a provision of the Texas Constitution that says all courts are open for people claiming harm to their reputation. Using the same arcane provision, Baird issued the state's first posthumous exoneration in 2009 to Timothy Cole, who died in prison for a rape he didn't commit.

    R. Lowell Thompson, Navarro County's district attorney, sought to derail the inquiry into Willingham, who was prosecuted by a predecessor. The prosecutor filed the petition with the court of appeals that froze Baird's investigation and is critical of the former judge for writing the proposed order.

    "It's very surprising to me that he would enter some sort of opinion without hearing all the evidence, because none was presented by the state," Thompson told HuffPost.

    Baird said Thompson had the chance to argue his side, but left the court. Thompson said he departed because he wanted to get the court of appeals to step in immediately.

    "I was doing my job and he thought he was doing the right thing," said Thompson. "To me, it looked like he wasn't applying the law."

    Some of the harshest criticism in Baird's writing is directed at Perry. The governor's role in refusing to postpone Willingham's execution was closely examined by The Huffington Post during his presidential campaign.

    "By 2004 there was no doubt that every single indication of arson had been debunked by the scientific community," Baird wrote. "This fact was staring Governor Perry in the face; nevertheless, he refused to grant a reprieve."

    Perry has stood by decision when questioned previously about Willingham.
    [...]

    "Nothing the Austin court could have done would change the fact that Todd Willingham was convicted and sentenced to death by a jury of his peers for murdering his three daughters," said a statement from his spokeswoman Lucy Nashed. "He had full access to every level of the appeals process, and his conviction was reviewed and upheld by multiple levels of state and federal courts. ... The governor reviewed all of the facts of the case and agreed with the jury, and state and federal courts that Willingham was guilty."

    With Baird's opinion revealed, lawyers for Willingham's family members continue pushing for a pardon that would clear his name. Last year, the Texas Forensic Science Commission issued a report saying the evidence from the fire investigators was no longer valid.

    "It's an awful shame that this opinion was sitting in his desk gathering dust and nobody could see it," said Barry Scheck, a lawyer from the Innocence Project working for Willingham's relatives. "This opinion will stand the test of time, because it faces the facts."
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...html?ref=crime

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