Children tried as Adults?

[Lazlo]

There is a story on the front page today that highlights one of the current practices in criminal jurisprudence - the trying of children, in this case a 13yo, as adults for crimes such as murder.

http://www.dreamindemon.com/2009/08/...er-spilt-milk/

Some of my points from up front:

From a commenter saying she acted like adult when she crossed that line and murdered -

Sure she acted like an adult. But can a child of 13 be held to the standards of accountability of an adult? If so, they should be able to sign contracts, get married, drive cars and own guns – hell, they know right from wrong. Right? Don’t know how I feel about charging children as adults, but I do know that it isn’t as cut and dried as some try to make it.

The response to my comment:

I think there are definitely two different standards held between driving and killing someone. Nobody has a right to take someone’s life. A 5-year old could tell you its wrong.

My response to their response:

Of course, you are correct. They know it’s wrong. But do they have the maturity to control their actions? Do they have a real grasp of the consequences attributed to those actions? I knew that the driving thing would be brought up, as the argument by absurdity is often over the heads of some, but it helps bring into focus the root issue – where and how do you draw the line. And with the vast differences in childhood development, how can you establish a benchmark that is equal to all, as any criminal process should be? That is why the age of adulthood is defined. Is it correct to adjust that down for offenders because there is a public perception of rampant adolescent crime?

It was at that point I thought it would be good to carry on here.
I would also add to my last point the public outrage for a particularly heinous act as a motivator to lower the age of responsibility.

Are our standards in this area of expectations for our children in line with those we impose on them in other areas?

Should they be?

I find the topic fascinating, and know the quality of posting in this forum will help me resolve my own feelings and beliefs on the issue. If you check out the FP story for the details in this case, please join the discussion up there as well.

[Thinkgoat]

Personally, I'm back and forth on this issue. The story you referenced, in my opinion, shows signs of a crime of passion. This 13 year old girl was obviously not in a healthy atmosphere if she threatened to kill her caretakers previously. She repeatedly told neighbors she was unhappy there. The taunting over the last of the milk is clearly not an indication of an "adult" atmosphere. But this 13 year-old knew what she was going to do when she grabbed the paring knife and cut through his carotid artery. Did she actually mean to kill him? I don't know. It's like punching a wall out of anger. Sure you know there's going to be pain but the broken bones may be a total surprise.

In the aftermath of the incident, she knew full well what she did. Using statements such as, "I did it. I killed him" pretty much removes any doubt. At 13. She knew it was wrong.

There was another story that sparked the same debate. 4 high school-aged boys who raped a teammate with a broomstick and hockey stick. Three of the boys were 14 and one was 15. ( http://www.dreamindemon.com/2009/05/...ping-teammate/ ) I argued that the 4 should be tried as adults because they clearly knew it was wrong.

What's the difference between these two cases?

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Kids are a case by case basis with me. Not only for variations in crime, but in maturity and circumstances. The sentences for juvenile crime frequently end too soon for some situations. So many variables, for me.

[nurseronda]

Kids are a case by case basis with me. Not only for variations in crime, but in maturity and circumstances. The sentences for juvenile crime frequently end too soon for some situations. So many variables, for me.

I have to agree with you on this. Some kids do know right from wrong and do the wrong anyways. I do believe that the death penalty should happen to some teens. I may be biased because as of right now I wished the death penalty was on the table for Morgan Leppert because as earlier stated, this involves my family. I also have to side with a small child who really didn't know what they done, took a life, a wrong that can never be undone.

[Thinkgoat]

The John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation conducted some research on this very subject 2 years ago.

children under 16 had as much difficulty grasping the complex legal proceedings as adults who had been ruled incompetent to go to court.

Kent Scheidegger, legal director of the conservative Criminal Justice Legal Foundation, said the vast majority of teenagers, even young ones, know enough to be tried in adult court. ''The notion that teenagers are not capable of understanding what is going on I find not credible in the case of mentally normal teenagers,'' he said.

The new study, by the John D. and Catherine T. MacArthur Foundation Research Network on Adolescent Development and Juvenile Justice, looked at more than 1,400 people between the ages of 11 and 24 in Philadelphia, Los Angeles, northern and eastern Virginia, and northern Florida.

Subjects were given intelligence tests and asked to respond to several hypothetical legal situations, such as whether to confess to a police officer. The results found that one-third of those 11 to 13 and one-fifth of those 14 or 15 could not understand the proceedings or help lawyers defend them. The study recommends that states reconsider the minimum age for juveniles to be tried as adults or to develop a system for evaluating young defendants' competence.

[darkthnker]

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive...679C946497D6CF
I found this article when I was checking that 1899 date. I find it so interesting-it could almost have been written today.

[absinthe]

If you ever sense teenagers are not taking your feelings into account, it's probably because they're just incapable of doing so.

The area of the brain associated with higher-level thinking, empathy, and guilt is underused by teenagers, reports a new study. When considering an action, the teenage medial prefrontal cortex, located in front of the brain, doesn't get as much action as adults.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14738243

so teenagers are biologically less capable of feeling empathy, but NOT less capable of telling right from wrong.

should this have any bearing?

[Dakota Valkyrie]

...it could almost have been written today.

Except for the noticeable lack of extremely violent crimes on the list.

[Turd Fergusen]

I think it all depends on the situation in which the child was raised in and if the child acted alone, in a group, or under the direction of an older kid or adult. Some 9yr olds do some fucked up shit, and they do understand what they are doing. Some get caught up in a group mentality and do things they don't understand or would do alone. Obviously in the last case there is an outside influence that takes advantage of a young mind.

In a nutshell this isn't something you can put a blanket definitlion over. Like the old question is this obscene? Let me take a look and I'll tell you!

[MichaelJCheaney]

I think it all depends on the situation in which the child was raised in and if the child acted alone, in a group, or under the direction of an older kid or adult. Some 9yr olds do some fucked up shit, and they do understand what they are doing. Some get caught up in a group mentality and do things they don't understand or would do alone. Obviously in the last case there is an outside influence that takes advantage of a young mind.

OK I am going to give you the conditions of the area she was raised in and see how you feel then. -I can do this since I am familiar with the area in question-

The neighborhood she was raised in is a VERY VERY Poor, gang infested area. Hookers are also very prevelant in the area.

Most kids are raised by Single Mothers with multiple children, drug use is above the city average in this hood, and so are murders.

Given all of these external factors, (and of course NOT taking into account her family life)

How do you rule?

Childrens court or Adult Court?

[Aslan]

They have hookers in Wisconsin?

All kidding aside, thanks for the inside scoop Michael. Like most, I'm torn on this one. Should nurture override nature in a court of law? Should it matter that she has told other people she's going to end up hurting one of them? How about that she has threatened him in the past with a knife? If a 15 yr old murders someone, should they be given the lesser sentence because they can't legally drive? How about a 17 yr old because they can't vote? Perhaps a 20 yr old because they can't drink? 24 because they can't yet get a break on their car insurance?

Yes I know that's taking it too far but my question to people who go by what others cannot do when they commit a crime is....where does it end?

Interesting topic Lazlo, thanks for starting this.

[MichaelJCheaney]

They have hookers in Wisconsin?

All kidding aside, thanks for the inside scoop Michael. Like most, I'm torn on this one. Should nurture override nature in a court of law? Should it matter that she has told other people she's going to end up hurting one of them? How about that she has threatened him in the past with a knife? If a 15 yr old murders someone, should they be given the lesser sentence because they can't legally drive? How about a 17 yr old because they can't vote? Perhaps a 20 yr old because they can't drink? 24 because they can't yet get a break on their car insurance?

Yes I know that's taking it too far but my question to people who go by what others cannot do when they commit a crime is....where does it end?

Interesting topic Lazlo, thanks for starting this.

Wisconsin is where all the UGLY ASS hookers migrate to!

Something that just occured to me. What if it turns out that Grandma and this girl were really close until she married the man she stabbed? And then things went south from there? The girl became really jealous of Grandmas sperm donor, and things just kind of were on the back burner until the spilled milk incident, which caused things to heat up and boil over.

Does that scenario change anybodies mind? (Keeping in mind of course that the neighborhood dynamics stay the same)

[Thinkgoat]

The neighborhood she was raised in is a VERY VERY Poor, gang infested area. Hookers are also very prevelant in the area. Most kids are raised by Single Mothers with multiple children, drug use is above the city average in this hood, and so are murders. Given all of these external factors, (and of course NOT taking into account her family life)

How do you rule? Children's court or Adult Court?

I understand all that - BUT, when does personal accountability come into play? At 13, this child has been in the educational system for 8 years and has been taught right from wrong, what bullies are, how to conduct one's self responsibly. So, how much does "being a product of one's environment" remove personal responsibility? Can a child of 13 be held accountable for their person?

[absinthe]

OK I am going to give you the conditions of the area she was raised in and see how you feel then. -I can do this since I am familiar with the area in question-

The neighborhood she was raised in is a VERY VERY Poor, gang infested area. Hookers are also very prevelant in the area.

Most kids are raised by Single Mothers with multiple children, drug use is above the city average in this hood, and so are murders.

Given all of these external factors, (and of course NOT taking into account her family life)

How do you rule?

Childrens court or Adult Court?

why should we take into account external factors in the case of a child suspect, and not an adult suspect?

[darkthnker]

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/s...2/index_1.html Here is a very lengthy article on the topic, telling many specific cases, and discussions on most of them. I have not finished reading all, but this has been a debate since Cain killed Abel.

[MichaelJCheaney]

I think people are getting the impression that I am NOT in favor of holding her responsible.

Believe me I am all in favor of her never seeing the light of day again.

I am just trying to get peoples feelings on the topic, if only because it is such a thought provoking one.

That all being said; given the Bleeding heart nature of Milwaukee Judges and the Criminal Justice system not holding people accountable, I predict she is out in 15 years...

[thatsmallgrl]

Something that just occured to me. What if it turns out that Grandma and this girl were really close until she married the man she stabbed? And then things went south from there? The girl became really jealous of Grandmas sperm donor, and things just kind of were on the back burner until the spilled milk incident, which caused things to heat up and boil over.

I think you may be on to something here. That could very well be the case.

But I think this goes beyond simple jealousy.

From what I've read and what I understand of the case, there was a bit of animosity between the step-gradfather and the girl, and that he was being an ass right before she killed him. From the description of his assness I'm thinking this wasn't the first time he's tried to goad her; especially since it's been stated that she has threatened him before. I think he really believed she would never do it, but attempted to push her into anyway.

It's a tough call with kids. There's a kid in my area right now who may not be getting any jail time for killing his father with a shotgun after coming home from school. He was 13. The case is on here somewhere, I'm too lazy to find it. I really think it should go case by case, and not a broad generalization. Not all kids are the same, and not all situations are the same.

[darkthnker]

I don't believe that the priviledges of adulthood (driving, contracts, marriage, etc.) are comparable to being held accountable for criminal activity. There are financial considerations, children cannot be financially responsible for adult activities. Parents are expected to pay the costs incurred by their children. This is why we don't allow them to do certain things - we don't want to pay for the consequences,IMO. It isn't that they are not capable. Children can pay the penalty of incarceration, parents don't go to prison for the crimes of their children.

[MichaelJCheaney]

why should we take into account external factors in the case of a child suspect, and not an adult suspect?

We shouldn't.

However there seems to be a certain segment of society that is bound and determined NOT to believe that children are just a capable of committing evil acts as adults are.

[absinthe]

I think people are getting the impression that I am NOT in favor of holding her responsible.

not at all :)

[Turd Fergusen]

We still don't know enough specific factors in the case. Maybe the stepgrandfater liked to sneak in the girls room late at night an cop a feel and this was all more about something like that than milk. My earlier comment was kids charged as adults in general. I don't think we'll ever know enough about this specific case (or very many at all as juvi shit is hush hush) to be able to make educated comments.

[absinthe]

We shouldn't.

However there seems to be a certain segment of society that is bound and determined NOT to believe that children are just a capable of committing evil acts as adults are.

obviously these people have never heard of mary bell.

[Athena]

A great debate to be had, especially considering that we are increasingly charging children as adults, which is a practice I disagree with.

Sure, there is the issue of consistency. A 14 year old isn't held to adult standards in any way, shape or form... unless he screws up. The worse he screws up, the more adult he is considered. What's wrong with that logic?

Then there is the issue of mental capacity. The human brain does not stop developing until roughly 25. Before that, we've got varied rates and stages of growth depending on the individual. Of course, brain development is not something we know a ton about to begin with. As one of the previous posters stated, it has been discovered that young teens and children are no more capable of grasping the proceedings of the court than adults ruled incompetent.

To me, however, there is one piece of research that really damns the practice of charging kids as adults: This.

In short, studies have found that, although kids sentenced as adults do tend to receive longer sentences, they end up serving LESS time than they would have in a juvenile facility (due to adult prison policies like "good time" and such). Research has also determined that, perhaps due to the decreased focus on rehabilitation in adult programs, juveniles sentenced as adults reoffend sooner after release AND more often than their juvenile system counterparts.

So, ultimately, sentencing juveniles as adults is a counter-productive "feel good" tactic. It serves society no real benefit.

You must understand that the juvenile system wasn't created until science began to realize the significant disparities in the capacity of children and the capacity of adults. That hasn't changed... so why should our policy?

[Aslan]

Isn't it weird that this girl just now came forward?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-to-death.html

She's 17. Should she face the penalty of an adult? She killed 30 adults.
She wanted to confess before she turned 18 so she wouldn't be tried as an adult.

See..that to me shows foresight and awareness. Absolute acceptance of the crime before it even happens.
Not so comfortable with the idea of a 14 yr old swaggering around knowing he can kill me and 'just end up in juvie'

What some may call extreme, others see as reality.

[Athena]

Isn't it weird that this girl just now came forward?
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage...-to-death.html

She's 17. Should she face the penalty of an adult? She killed 30 adults.
She wanted to confess before she turned 18 so she wouldn't be tried as an adult.

See..that to me shows foresight and awareness. Absolute acceptance of the crime before it even happens.
Not so comfortable with the idea of a 14 yr old swaggering around knowing he can kill me and 'just end up in juvie'

What some may call extreme, others see as reality.

I've known 5 year olds who have the foresight to bust on themselves because they know the consequences will be worse if they don't, so I'm not sure that this young lady's behavior signals anything exclusively adult. But that's beside the point.

The answer is not to charge kids as adults, it's to expand juvenile sentencing to account for cases like this one. A serial killer of ANY age should be permanently separated from society. The fact that the juvenile system cannot account for that is simply a flaw that needs to be addressed, not cause to throw the baby out with the bath water.

What people rarely take into consideration is that the majority of murderers, juvenile or adult, wind back up on the street eventually. Juvenile facilities focus on rehabilitation and boast lower recidivism rates.

I'm perfectly okay with a child receiving a shorter sentence with the hopes that the programs he's involved in while incarcerated may help rehabilitate him rather than to throw him into an unforgiving adult system out of spite.