Fabian Henderson threw his dog off the roof. Six stories.

**lundwall1** · November 13th, 2009, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by smallwonder4

I'll bet Daisy would not have been able to overcome her fears in a shelter environment either. Well done and thank you for your patience and rehabilitating this animal!

I'm glad someone else sees it the same way as I do. I read that PetsAlive is willing to sign a liability waiver, so the ASPCA could let Oreo go knowing they were released of any liability should she be mismanaged and able to cause harm to someone.

I read an interesting quote earlier that said something to the effect of isn't it interesting that the more easily knowledge can be spread the worse the AKC, PETA, and ASPCA really look hmmmm

You are right! Daisy would NOT have thrived in my opinion in a shelter or kennel environment - she would of been miserable and done miserably and would have been put down ASAP - of that I am sure! And a wonderful dog would of lost her life needlessly -just like what could be the case w/ Oreo!

Petsalive willing to sign a liability waiver?? Then what is the problem here? It should not even be up for discussion - let them sign the waiver and give them Oreo!

As for some of these organizations, again they are not all that they are cracked up to be - don't get me wrong, you've got some great ones out there with some great caring people - but it’s NOT like that all across the board. I have known people who have worked for the ASPCA in NYC, and they could not take it not just the sadness but the lack of some of these peoples empathy - some people are really just in it for the paycheck. You know "putting down" an animal - is not always like going to sleep - it’s not always not painless and quick...some of it is downright cruel and heartbreaking

**skeptik** · November 13th, 2009, 03:18 PM

Could you link that info about the liability waiver? I am having a hard time finding much other than the original article I quoted.

And the AKC can kiss my ass. I've never said anything but disparaging things about that joke of an organization. WTf does the AKC have to do with any of this, though?

**skeptik** · November 13th, 2009, 03:20 PM

As for some of these organizations, again they are not all that they are cracked up to be - don't get me wrong, you've got some great ones out there with some great caring people - but it’s NOT like that all across the board. I have known people who have worked for the ASPCA in NYC, and they could not take it not just the sadness but the lack of some of these peoples empathy - some people are really just in it for the paycheck. You know "putting down" an animal - is not always like going to sleep - it’s not always not painless and quick...some of it is downright cruel and heartbreaking

I have seen, read, heard and discussed far more cases of cruelty and misguided "love" in PRIVATE rescues than I have ever witnessed in public ones.

**Sarabei** · November 13th, 2009, 03:25 PM

I don't see any reason this dog can't be given a shot at a good life with an organization that is willing to take the risk and is equipped to handle Oreo. This dog has survived SO much; while I can understand the sentiments that euthanasia is called for in this instance; Oreo has hurt no one, SHE is the one who has been hurt. Euthanasia should be the LAST resort. I don't think the ASPCA reached this decision easily, I am sure it came hard for them, however, they, at this point, have other options. Give this dog a chance to live a happy life!!

**DogMom** · November 13th, 2009, 05:19 PM

She's gone.

http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/20.../oreo-is-dead/

**Chaindrive** · November 13th, 2009, 07:54 PM

**skeptik** · November 13th, 2009, 08:15 PM

In one appeal, Camille Hankins, the director of Win Animal Rights, sent an e-mail message to the A.S.P.C.A. begging for clemency and accusing the organization of completing “what the animal abuser who threw her off that Brooklyn roof top set out to do.” Protesters also gathered briefly at the headquarters Friday morning.

The A.S.P.C.A. was unmoved, citing the evaluation of staff members and an outside veterinary behaviorist who said that Oreo could not be rehabilitated. “Animal cruelty isn’t pretty and doesn’t always have a happy ending,” said the society’s president and chief executive, Ed Sayres, “It is ugly and sad and, ultimately, tragic.”

The ASPCA could just not set that kind of precedent. To allow a dog deemed dangerous and incapable of rehabilitation to go to a rescue would open the flood gates on every other dog ruled dangerous. How could they let Oreo go to a rescue and not let every other animal seized for an attack go?

What happened with Oreo is very, very sad. Hopefully the attention given to her and her horrible life and tragic death will also call attention to the many dogs still out there, perfectly capable of re-homing that are euthanized every single day.

Rest in peace, Oreo.

**smallwonder4** · November 13th, 2009, 09:06 PM

Yup, Fabian Henderson got his wish. RIP Oreo :-(

I don't know how to link to a specific tweet, but Pets Alive tweeted earlier today that they'd sign the liability waiver:

Mr. Izquierdo - I am sitting by the phone. Call me. What harm does it do for you guys to give us the dog? We'll sign a waiver of liability.

It's currently on the second page of their twitter timeline http://twitter.com/petsalive but as they continue to tweet other posts, the one I quoted will go further back.

ETA: that precedent is set already. I'm watching DogTown which is Best Friends Animal Sanctuary in Utah's show and they take in aggression cases deemed unfit for adoption by other rescues as a matter of course.

**skeptik** · November 13th, 2009, 09:11 PM

deemed unfit for adoption by other rescues

Deemed unfit by the ASPCA?

**smallwonder4** · November 13th, 2009, 09:19 PM

Best Friends' No More Homeless Pets campaign created a new vision: A grassroots effort to place dogs and cats who were considered "unadoptable" into good homes, and to reduce the number of unwanted pets through effective spay and neuter programs.

http://www.bestfriends.org/aboutus/

I don't know about the ASPCA specifically.

**skeptik** · November 13th, 2009, 09:35 PM

Thanks for the link to Best Friends. Great organization.

I imagine the hundreds of voices that cried out for this dog today will go bounding after some other cause now that the spotlight has shifted. There were THOUSANDS of dogs euthanized today in America. Only one of them was Oreo.

**smallwonder4** · November 13th, 2009, 09:46 PM

There were THOUSANDS of dogs euthanized today in America. Only one of them was Oreo.

That is absolutely true. Shelters are overcrowded for a variety of reasons, and HSUS estimates that 1/2 of the 4-6 million animals that enter shelters every year are put down... sometimes by needle, sometimes by mass gassing...

I still don't understand why the ASPCA would release their intention to kill Oreo like they did if they weren't crying for help from other rescues.

**smallwonder4** · November 13th, 2009, 09:56 PM

ASPCA puts down abused NY dog after saying rehab failed and despite pleas from dog lovers
By: CRISTIAN SALAZAR
Associated Press
11/13/09 4:50 PM EST

NEW YORK — A young pit bull mix that survived being thrown off the sixth-floor roof of a Brooklyn building still was not fit to live because of her aggressive behavior, her caretakers said, and she was euthanized Friday, despite pleas from animal activists to spare her life.

Oreo suffered two broken legs and a fractured rib when she was beaten and thrown off a roof June 18. After months of working to rehabilitate her, the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals determined that she was unpredictably aggressive, and could never live among humans or other dogs.

The plight of the 1-year-old Oreo stirred emotions among animal lovers, and the ASPCA decision to euthanize her led many to flood the organization with hundreds of calls, e-mails and Twitter messages.

"We're saddened by the outcome," said ASPCA spokesman Andy Izquierdo on Friday afternoon after the organization announced Oreo's death. "But we truly feel it's the most humane decision for Oreo."

Earlier, Izquierdo said the agency had received well over 200 calls and e-mail messages, as well as at least two death threats.

"People don't know the behavioral piece," Izquierdo said. "We could fix her physically, but we couldn't do anything with her psychologically."

Protesters rallied outside the building Friday morning. And at least one pet sanctuary offered to take in the dog.

"The aggression thing is a dumb excuse because all dogs can be worked with," said Emily Danks, a self-described animal rescuer who said she was escorted out of the ASPCA's building on the Upper East Side after trying to convince staff members to let her take Oreo.

She said she had planned to take the dog to Pets Alive, a sanctuary in Middletown.

Matt DeAngelis, executive director of Pets Alive, said his organization had left phone messages for the ASPCA with an offer to take in Oreo. But he said they had not heard anything, and he was perplexed at why the ASPCA didn't accept the group's offer.

In an e-mail, Stephen Zawistowski, one of the ASPCA's lead animal behavior experts who had worked with Oreo, said the organization didn't believe that sanctuary placement was "good for her welfare."

"We made this decision having the experience of working with a number of well-known sanctuaries and rescue groups," he said, adding that the ASPCA was unfamiliar with Pets Alive.

Fabian Henderson, a 19-year-old who lived at the housing complex in Brooklyn's Red Hook section, where officers found Oreo badly injured, was arrested on felony charges. He has pleaded guilty to aggravated cruelty to animals, and is to be sentenced Dec. 1.

There was no phone listing for Henderson at the Brooklyn building. His lawyer could not immediately be reached for comment.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/na...medium=twitter

Holy shit, she was just a puppy. I did not realize she was only a year old! That would have been reason #4 in my first post. Damn.

**Chaindrive** · November 14th, 2009, 01:57 AM

I'll probably get groaned for this but...Oreo was just a baby.

Babies need lots of patience.

All of my dogs and cats have been rescue dogs and cats. Sometimes it goes well immediately, and sometimes it takes a little patience.

Like when the rescue dog is put in a friend's yard by another friend because the dog has been chained up all his life and tries to bite everything and everyone (sheppard) and the other friend is a merchant marine and asks me to feed the dog when he goes to his job (two houses down). I go every morning and night and feed the dog.

The food the merchant marine (the friend down the street) has provided for me to feed the dog with is gravy train, which, when he was home he just put in a bowl on the porch. It's winter when I go to feed the dog and every morning and night I decide he needs the gravy part of the gravy train to warm him, and I make his food and put hot water in it and stir it up and take it out to him and wait while he eats it.

Third day of feeding him, the dog that won't let anyone near him leans against my leg as I'm making his food (I would open the front door and leave it open so the dog could see what I was doing as I was preparing his food).

Fourth day, I open up the gate, and walk him to my house without a leash...he's so pleased he's dancing...put him in my house with the cats and the other dogs, and everyone's happy. I had him until he was 16 or so. He never once snarled or bit at anyone again.

Friend comes home, discovered I'd stolen him and bitches me out. I tell the friend that he wasn't around to give him what he needed and I could, so I took him. Friend agrees.

My point here is patience.

I've had rescue cats hide under the bed for a week, I've had rescue dogs be racoons in dog suits until they calmed down (my heeler...it took 2 years before he was able to be a house dog...he was 4 months old when I got him from a couple that was in the military and had to move and couldn't take him).

Patience.

**skeptik** · November 14th, 2009, 07:42 AM

Whoever groans you that for that has a beating coming from me, Chaindrive.

Although I understand what you are saying and totally agree with most of your point there is a point with dogs where the aggression is not likely to be managed. I imagine it happens in all animals, almost like a mental illness.

That being said I have two rescued birds (one, the parrot, came to me vicious) and a rescued dog. I have also worked with my GSD with his aggression issues, not from any sort of abuse at all but because he comes from a German working line. He's a dog that needs a job and I have to give him one daily, even if it's just me hiding milk bones around the yard or taking everyone outside so we can play together. I have done therapy work and my therapy dog (rescued GSD, r.i.p) passed her CGC and her certifications. I trained her for those.

There are many things that can be worked out with an animal, and I am never one to promote re-homing or euthanasia for manageable issues. My GSD, Jack, used to hate everyone that walked toward us (difficult to manage on South Beach). He was also dog aggressive. I lived on training forums, I read countless books, I consulted three trainers. Through perseverance it worked out (took upwards of 4 years) but I will never forget what the first trainer that assessed him told me:

There is a difference between justifiable aggression (towards other dogs or about territory) and misplaced unpredictable aggression.

My dog, although fearsome, never ever looked at me remotely cross eyed. A dog that turns on it's handler without provocation or justification is a liability. Not every animal we pity should live among us. Sometimes the must humane thing of all is euthanization.

Wonder, I think that info about Oreo is incorrect. I read on the ASPCA's site that she was two. Still a young dog, granted!

**skeptik** · November 14th, 2009, 07:50 AM

"The aggression thing is a dumb excuse because all dogs can be worked with," said Emily Danks, a self-described animal rescuer who said she was escorted out of the ASPCA's building on the Upper East Side after trying to convince staff members to let her take Oreo.

She said she had planned to take the dog to Pets Alive, a sanctuary in Middletown.

Matt DeAngelis, executive director of Pets Alive, said his organization had left phone messages for the ASPCA with an offer to take in Oreo. But he said they had not heard anything, and he was perplexed at why the ASPCA didn't accept the group's offer.

In an e-mail, Stephen Zawistowski, one of the ASPCA's lead animal behavior experts who had worked with Oreo, said the organization didn't believe that sanctuary placement was "good for her welfare."

"We made this decision having the experience of working with a number of well-known sanctuaries and rescue groups," he said, adding that the ASPCA was unfamiliar with Pets Alive.

Sure, all dogs can be worked with but not all dogs can be rehabilitated.
Pets Alive briefly worked with Best Friends. They did not have the veterinary facilities to treat Oreo when she first came in. What I suggest Pets Alive does is, instead of disparaging the ASPCA for taking an animal they could NOT have treated in the first place, they should promote their willingness to take these unadoptable dogs and partner with the ASPCA in future cases.

I have to say though, it's a total waste of resources. Why not make their focus the thousands of dogs that need little to no training?! Why not concentrate on re training and re homing as many dogs as possible?

I guess there's just not a whole lot of publicity in that.....

**DrSmith** · November 14th, 2009, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by backlash

I wonder if this dog was just naturally disposed to be mean, or if what it went through made it mean...

I've heard people say that but I really never believed it, that is till I owned a Fox terrier.

He wasn't mean but he really behaved to the letter of that breed. I would have thought that was all myth and theres just owners who make them mean or what ever people generally say about a certain breed.

My dog would climb the fence, dig and tunnel under it and had the most hair bristling shrill bark you ever heard! when he had something in his sight he didn't see anything but that however he was a bred to annoy fox's out of their hole so in true fashion he'd corner a rabbit or squirrel (or what ever happened to mosey in that day) in the yard and then just bark non-stop in it's face!

My dog was a psycho and I miss him, he died chasing a squirrel on a fence, he was looking up and just running, tripped and broke his neck.

I hate when I hear stories like this, I love animals and kids and the punishments for both are far to lenient!

**Chaindrive** · November 14th, 2009, 11:06 AM

Thank you, skeptik, and I see your point. Maybe it's because none of my rescues have been incorrigibly vicious that I'm looking at this with, perhaps, rose colored glasses. I do know that the ones I've had that had behavioral problems just required tons of patience.

**smallwonder4** · November 14th, 2009, 01:40 PM

Dr. Smith, even if this dog was true to the letter of what the pit bull was bred for (pit fighting) it should only be dog reactive/ aggressive but should be fine with people, eager to please in fact. In the beginning of the breed, back when dog fighting was a "gentleman's sport" they were culled on the spot if they bit a dogman in the pit... not fed dinner, and certainly not allowed to breed. Granted nobody knows the lineage of Oreo.

I feel like this dog needed to be in a highly experienced foster home where it could have learned to trust and follow a human... eventually expanding that out to new humans, dogs, experiences, etc. I understand that there are other dogs out there for the money to be spent on, but I still feel like the money spent putting Oreo back together was wasted, because she was killed before the second half of her rehabilitation could take place. Shelters are inherently stressful environments. Oreo would have had shifts of employees caring for her rather than one consistent person she could come to trust and learn to follow.... like Chaindrive said, PATIENCE could have turned this puppy around, but instead she's dead.

**Abroad** · November 14th, 2009, 04:46 PM

You don't think patience went into this from the ASPCA's side?

Oreo underwent 59 sessions of nearly 45 minutes each that were aimed at modifying her behavior. She did not improve significantly.

And considering someone further up the thread said half the dogs that are turned in to shelters are euthanised and the ASPCA manages to place 94% of the dogs they get, I should think they know what they are doing.

I can appreciate the sadness, - I feel it too; but I do believe putting Oreo down may have been a mercy for everyone, including Oreo.

**Whisper** · November 14th, 2009, 11:25 PM

Karmas a beautiful thing.He will get his,heres proof.This happened right here in my hometown ,4 blocks from me. My comps screwed up right now so cant copy and paste,,,google this headline story will come up.."An ear for a ear for animal abuser".The guy cut dogs ears off to make him look mean,in jail a guy bit his ear off lol!!So karmas beautiful,, google it its in WINDSOR ONTARIO CANADA I just used the thing that says "canada pages only"

**skeptik** · November 15th, 2009, 12:11 AM

I thought about this today while mopping. It really comes down to a few things for me.

Some people believe that any dog can be rehabilitated. I do not believe that every single dog can be rehabilitated. When the ASPCA's behaviorist plus an independent behaviorist come to the conclusion that the dog's quality of life is negatively impacted by the aggression that's pretty much all I need. When a rescue is intent on getting one particular dog, deemed a risk to people by respected professionals in their field, I have to question the wisdom of their crusade.

I imagine to a lot of people the atrocious actions of Oreo's former owner leaves us as a society owing for the pain in her past. I do not think it serves Oreo, or the thousands of other abused dogs in shelters, to spend time and money better spent helping as many dogs as possible, on one single dog.

Forests and trees and all that shit...

I am sure that Oreo could have been heavily sedated for the rest of her life and maybe learned not to bite the people that cared for her. She would have been alive, granted, but would it have been a life worth living? Dogs attack because they are afraid. I don't think it's fair that she would have to live the rest of her life fighting down that very natural reaction to her life thus far just so a group or an individual could claim they rescued and rehabilitated her.

**Whisper** · November 15th, 2009, 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by whisperswing

Karmas a beautiful thing.He will get his,heres proof.This happened right here in my hometown ,4 blocks from me. My comps screwed up right now so cant copy and paste,,,google this headline story will come up.."An ear for a ear for animal abuser".The guy cut dogs ears off to make him look mean,in jail a guy bit his ear off lol!!So karmas beautiful,, google it its in WINDSOR ONTARIO CANADA I just used the thing that says "canada pages only"

best part about this guy that bit the guys ear off,he wasnt charged with anything!!And the one that got his ear bit off was transferred to a jail 300 miles away for his own safety!! But no charges that says alot.The whole city was nuts when this happened and the guy got his head kicked in few times so they do get it back!

**smallwonder4** · November 18th, 2009, 05:41 PM

Oreo may be dead but the controversy isn't. I've been reading online (twitter mostly) about petitions and calling for the SPCA director to lose his job etc, and I really thought they were just beating a dead dog so to speak, but it would appear that these voices have been heard by people who can actually do something... not for Oreo obviously, she's dead, but not in vain if this bill becomes law in NY... and it might, because it's based on a Hayden's Law, passed in CA in 1998 stating that no dog should be euthanized if another rescue will take it.

MANHATTAN -- A bill to allow animal welfare organizations the right to request animals be given to their care when a shelter is planning to euthanize them will be introduced in the State Legislature this week by Assembly Member Micah Z. Kellner and State Senator Thomas K. Duane.

The bill is named Oreo’s Law in memory of a pit bull mix who became well-known after she survived abuse at the hands of her former owner, including a fall from a six-story building, but was eventually
euthanized after the ASPCA determined she was untreatably aggressive. Pets Alive Animal Sanctuary, a no-kill animal shelter located in the foothills of the Catskill Mountains, specializing in the rehabilitation and care of abused animals, offered to take Oreo, but the ASPCA refused the request.

“As a dog owner and a foster parent for an animal rescue group, I was heartbroken to learn that Oreo was euthanized. When a humane organization volunteers their expertise in difficult cases, a shelter should work with them to the fullest extent possible.” said Assembly Member Micah Z. Kellner. “I am hopeful that Oreo’s Law will ensure that no animal is ever put to death if there is a responsible alternative.”

"The humane treatment of animals in the care of shelters is an issue about which I feel very strongly," said Senator Thomas K. Duane, who will introduce Oreo's Law legislation in the New York State
Senate. "No animal should be put down by a shelter if a reputable humane or rescue organization is willing to assume responsibility for its well being. Oreo's Law would make sure that in instances where
animals aren't rabid or physically suffering, such organizations have the authority to take possession with the payment of the normal adoption fee, and that Oreo’s sad plight will not be repeated."“We are deeply moved that Assembly Member Kellner and Senator Duane have taken up Oreo’s cause.

We all need to be the voice for these innocent animals,” said Kerry Clair and Matt DeAngelis, Executive Co-Directors of Pets Alive Animal Sanctuary. “We have asked our local legislators to
support the bill and we hope that Oreo’s tragic and unnecessary death will offer life to thousands of others.”

Oreo’s Law is modeled after a provision in California state law, adopted there in 1998 as part of a general animal welfare reform package known as the Hayden Law (named after the Senator who
authored it).

Sorry to quote examiner.com but it's pretty new info, and it hasn't been picked up by bigger sources yet.
http://www.examiner.com/x-16635-SF-A...seek-Oreos-Law

**smallwonder4** · November 18th, 2009, 06:27 PM

I found a more reputable link... from one of the Reps behind this bill

The case of Oreo, an abused dog who was put down after her rescue by the American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (APSCA), brought to light a tragic loophole in our animal protection laws. This week, I am introducing legislation to close that loophole and save the lives of thousands of abused and injured animals in New York State.

This new legislation will allow animal welfare organizations the right to request animals be given to their care when a shelter is planning to euthanize them. The bill will be sponsored in the State Senate by Senator Tom Duane.

The bill, modeled on an existing law in California, is named Oreo’s Law in memory of the pit bull mix who became well-known after she survived abuse at the hands of her former owner, including a fall from a six-story building, but was eventually euthanized after the ASPCA determined that she was untreatably aggressive. Pets Alive Animal Sanctuary, a no-kill animal shelter located in the foothills of the Catskill Mountains, specializing in the rehabilitation and care of abused animals, offered to take Oreo, but the ASPCA refused the request.

As a dog owner and a foster parent for an animal rescue group, I was heartbroken to learn that Oreo was euthanized. When humane organizations volunteer their expertise in difficult cases, shelters should work with them to the fullest extent possible. This legislation will give tragically abused animals like Oreo another chance at life.

http://www.micahkellner.net/2009/11/...hance-at-life/

Also at the link are links to more info, press release, and pics of PetsAlive's kennel where Oreo would have been granted sanctuary for the rest of her life if she couldn't be rehabilitated and adopted.

Furthermore, I watched an episode of Cesar Millan, Dog Whisperer today that hit on this topic. It was the episode with Howie, season 3 episode 10, a dog rescued from life on a chain, rehabilitated physically from an imbedded collar, but for 2 years he couldn't be psychologically rehabilitated. Cesar couldn't believe the staff at the vet clinic wasn't walking him... was keeping him behind walls etc. He got him on track and acting like a dog in one visit. Such is his magic.

**lundwall1** · November 19th, 2009, 12:09 PM

This story just absolutely KILLS me. There was a place willing to take Oreo, willing to take the "risk", willing to give her a home, willing to have patience - and the ASPCA would not allow her to live elsewhere. Do they think "well if we can’t fix her no one can?" PLEASE, different things work for different dogs. Oreo was put down, no sorry KILLED UNNESSASARILY, her life was filled with cruelty from the very person who was suppose to love and care for her, and then when she did not "conform" quick enough for the ASPCA she was KILLED. If I were Oreo I would not have trusted people either - after what had been done to her - and then even done to her by the people that were suppose to be helping her in the first place. She was FAILED. The ASPCA could of just released her to that rescue-liability waver signed and all. No one can convince me that the ASPCA did the right thing in this case – there was another alternative for her. We are NOT GODS - sometimes people seem to act is if they are, over creatures big and small, over animals and humans alike. The only "good" thing I can see coming from this is hopefully that legislation being passed - to protect other animals like Oreo.

**DogMom** · December 2nd, 2009, 12:43 PM

The asswipe skipped his sentencing court date and a bench warrant has been issued. The plea deal has been trashed.

Fabian Henderson skips court, now faces jail for throwing dog Oreo off roof

A Brooklyn man who tossed a 1-year-old dog off a roof this summer now faces jail after he failed to show up for his sentencing Tuesday.

Fabian Henderson, 20, pleaded guilty last month to aggravated animal cruelty - and got a deal that banned him from owning a dog again but spared him jail time.

Skipping court, though, means there is now a warrant out for Henderson's arrest.

"What do you expect from somebody who would throw a dog off a roof," said Camille Hankins, one of a contingent of animal rights activists who sat in Brooklyn Supreme Court all morning waiting for Henderson to be sentenced.

"It's just another incidence of anti-social behavior," said Joseph Pentangelo of the ASPCA. "It's indicative of a person who has very little respect for the law."

Animal rights activists were outraged by Henderson's cruelty, but they more infuriated after officials euthanized Oreo last month because she became too aggressive.

Henderson could now face up to four years in jail. His lawyer declined to comment.

http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/...ng_dog_or.html

**skeptik** · December 2nd, 2009, 12:49 PM

In my wild and crazy mind I wish we could legislate breeders.

**skeptik** · December 2nd, 2009, 12:53 PM

Let's not forget that most animal behaviorists do not agree with most of Cesar's techniques. If you really want an animal trainer to admire I suggest Karen Pryor.