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Thread: Why can't the white guy have the job?

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    Why can't the white guy have the job?

    Supreme Court Hears Controversial Reverse Discrimination Case

    WASHINGTON — The latest controversial race case landed in the Supreme Court today with extended arguments about the merits of a city's decision to set aside the results of a promotions exam when no African Americans scored well to enough to merit a promotion.

    A ruling—expected by June—could impact the hiring practices of employers all across the country.

    The issue confronting the justices is at what point does a hiring decision with unmistakable racial overtones go from permissible to unconstitutional.

    The packed courtroom included several dozen New Haven, Connecticut firefighters—white and black—some of whom stood in line outside the court in a spotty drizzle since shortly after midnight to make sure they had seats for the arguments which lasted beyond their allotted time.

    Gregory Coleman opened up the arguments by telling the justices that the white firefighters he represents were subjected to "regrettable and socially destructive racial politics" when their promotions were set aside by New Haven's city leaders.

    After reviewing the results of the promotions exam, the city—fearing civil rights lawsuits from its black firefighters—decided to promote no one. That decision led to the reverse discrimination action by the white firefighters who would have been promoted had the city certified the test results.

    Justice David Souter said New Haven was in a "damned if you do, damned if don't situation" and that the city ought to have enough leeway to re-test the firefighters without fear of litigation. But Chief Justice John Roberts was the most vocal critic of that approach. "[T]hey get do-overs until it comes out right?" Roberts wondered.

    Roberts was also troubled by the impact of the city's decision on its white firefighters who earned the promotion. New Haven argued and lower courts have so far ruled that because no was promoted no one was unfairly treated. But Roberts didn't buy that argument. "[T]here are particular individuals here," Roberts said and suggested the city was more interested in the racial dynamic of the promotions list than the people themselves. "[I]sn't that kind of a blank check to discriminate," he asked.

    Today's reverse discrimination case is the latest racially sensitive case to come before the Court. In recent years it addressed disputes over school admissions and bussing. And just as those cases have impacted the education system, this case could do the same for employers—public and private—all across the country.

    As has become custom, the comments of Justice Anthony Kennedy are of interest because his vote is often the one to carry the day in tight cases. Early on in the arguments he was asking about the permissibility of race conscionable decisions. But then later on he took specific issue with New Haven's actions. "[I]t looked at the results, and it classified the successful and unsuccessful applicants by race. And then — and you want us to say this isn't race? I have — I have trouble with this argument."

    The case also cast a spotlight on the Obama Administration's views of . Deputy Solicitor General Edwin Kneedler argued the city was fundamentally correct in its handling of the case. He said the city should have "considerable flexibility in assessing their practices and deciding on appropriate action if it looks like one of their actions" is reasonably likely to be discriminatory.

    Following the arguments lawyers and advocates from both sides gathered outside the court to talk about the case. Frank Ricci, the white firefighter most closely identified with the case said he was happy to have his day in court and asserted that "if you work hard, study and apply yourself, you will succeed."
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,...s/supremecourt
    They decided not to promote anybody.
    If Color A can't pass the test , shouldn't
    Color B get a crack at the job? I believe affirmative action and racial preferences has shot itself in the foot bigtime.. death is near.
    How would rule if you were on the supreme court?

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    Ticy-TacSpitterout Person MadmamainNC's Avatar
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    Hubby works for DOC. Happens all the time.

    I believe when we advance people based on numbers and not merit, we lower the standards we have in place. This holds true for anyone applying for the job who are more than qualified and being passed over for someone because of a quota.

    I believe at one time Affirmative Action was necessary but it's old, worn out and sure as hell not needed now.
    .
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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Why can't the white guy have the job?
    Well...the coloured people will be running the country...that is why. You should have thought about this before you let all of these Mexicans emigrate here. Now you can't make them leave. Too bad. Move to New Zealand.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
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    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    i'm the least racist person you'll ever see, in fact yo, some of my best friends are coloured people. i'm down with those negros, word to your mother.

    seriously, though. now a black guy's president! it's not 1972 - we don't need affirmative action anymore, but once a regulation is on the books, it's so hard to remove it. i don't think a move to overturn or outlaw affirmative action would have a groundswell of grassroots support either. people are generally politically correct wusses, and isolated cases like this won't make a real dent.

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Does the fact that a black man is President really negate the need for Affirmative Action?

    The policy was created to counter-act the subtle discrimination that may pass the scrutiny of discrimination laws. It is a fact that individuals with black, "ethnic" names will have a harder time getting employment, loans, rentals, etc. Black people are still passed up by taxis two-to-one over even other minorities, all of which are less likely to be picked up than white folks.

    Some of this is totally subconscious. It's the reason why ghettos (as in ethnic-specific neighborhoods) crop up and why black kids tend to sit with other black kids, white kids with white kids, so on and so forth, in the lunchroom at school. We are inherently drawn to our own kind. Whenever there's a clear majority, this puts the minorities at a natural disadvantage, and it continues today, despite the color of our President.

    Is it not our duty as a just society that triumphs equality to establish systems that counter-act this natural disadvantage?



    (Note for swivel: I'm anti-Affirmative Action, I'm just trying to create some conversation, here, if you don't mind. )
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    Great Marshal Zealant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by malq View Post
    How would rule if you were on the supreme court?
    I would rule that race has no place in the workplace.

    I would rule that if there is policy in place, the employer should be legally bound to follow their own policy.

    The test scores were the key, and decisions should have been made on the test scores, not with regards to race.

    If you're an ethic minority, and your test score is too low for advancement, too bad, study harder next time.

    The test scores were their hard copy of defense should there arise a discrimination suit from those with low and unqualified scores.

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    It's Complicated.... Just my luck sucks's Avatar
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    New Haven's city leaders were in that proverbial space between a rock and a hard place.

    If they had let the test scores stand and only white firemen were promoted, someone would have insisted the test was skewed in favor of whites, thus discriminating against the black firemen.

    The disgusting thing with someone pulling out the race card, is, or it seems IMO the troublemaker waving the card usually has little to nothing to do with the person/persons or matter at hand.
    We have enough youth. How about a fountain of smart?

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    Squire dontcensorme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zealant View Post
    I would rule that race has no place in the workplace.

    I would rule that if there is policy in place, the employer should be legally bound to follow their own policy.

    The test scores were the key, and decisions should have been made on the test scores, not with regards to race.

    If you're an ethic minority, and your test score is too low for advancement, too bad, study harder next time.

    The test scores were their hard copy of defense should there arise a discrimination suit from those with low and unqualified scores.

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    Cynical Spectator tjangel's Avatar
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    I agree 100% that race has absolutely no place in the workplace those that do the job and excel should be the ones rewarded. Many of the companies I've worked offer continuing education courses so that anyone who is interested in advancement can be promoted, and only those that qualify whether they are black, white, or hispanic - get the promotions. It's a little different story when it comes to hiring though - we all had to go through "diversity" training so the person who gets hired & their foot in the door is not always the best choice :(

    My family was poor white hillbillies from KY that had to move to the crappiest Chicago neighborhood to try and find work, and my father only had a 6th grade education, and it certainly didn't give me any breaks - I had to work for everything I got. If you ask me, there is no such thing as "reverse discrimination" - it is just plain discrimination! Just my opinion.
    Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are. King Solomon, 635-577 BC

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    Quote Originally Posted by Just my luck sucks View Post
    New Haven's city leaders were in that proverbial space between a rock and a hard place.

    If they had let the test scores stand and only white firemen were promoted, someone would have insisted the test was skewed in favor of whites, thus discriminating against the black firemen.
    Therein lies the problem. No matter what seems to be done, if the desired results aren't realized, the "dis-enfranchised" will always scream about some other inequity. You can never please them.

    But lets get real! Does it matter what kind of qualifications a street maintenance worker has? No. If he can fill a pot hole, he's qualified. Let the "quota" system run amok, no harm done. But fire fighters, and especially those in leadership roles, are RISKING THEIR LIVES everyday! It takes specialized knowledge and training, plus a demonstrable aptitude of knowledge and skills, to safely perform in this demanding profession. (If you have had no fire training please hold your idiotic comments based on outside observation). To undermine the safety, not only of the newly promoted, but of all of his/her charges, by satisfying some do-gooder's misguided idea about "fairness" is an exercise in dumbassary!!

    It is evident that there is a NEED for officers at this FD. To deny these brave men and women QUALIFIED leaders, placing more responsibility and fatigue on the existing officers is asinine. All because the right "color" didn't win. Stories like this make me LIVID!!!

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    Update

    High Court Rules for White Firefighters in Discrimination Suit
    Ruling Reverses High-Profile Decision by Supreme Court Nominee Sonia Sotomayor
    By Robert Barnes
    Washington Post Staff Writer
    Monday, June 29, 2009 12:07 PM

    The Supreme Court today narrowly ruled in favor of white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., who said they were denied promotions because of their race, reversing a decision by Judge Sonia Sotomayor and others that had come to play a large role in the consideration of her nomination for the high court.

    The city had thrown out the results of a promotion test because no African Americans and only two Hispanics would have qualified for promotions. It said it feared a lawsuit from minorities under federal laws that said such "disparate impacts" on test results could be used to show discrimination.
    In effect, the court was deciding when avoiding potential discrimination against one group amounted to actual discrimination against another.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...901608_pf.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zealant View Post
    I would rule that race has no place in the workplace.

    I would rule that if there is policy in place, the employer should be legally bound to follow their own policy.

    The test scores were the key, and decisions should have been made on the test scores, not with regards to race.

    If you're an ethic minority, and your test score is too low for advancement, too bad, study harder next time.

    The test scores were their hard copy of defense should there arise a discrimination suit from those with low and unqualified scores.
    Pretty dumb when we have to lower standards to hire inferior intelligence
    Top score wins no matter race. Plenty of intelligent minorities out there just need to attract them to the position, if they don't apply they sure as hell can't be hired. Problem is with affirmative action there's a lot of great jobs out there for the minorities with a brain, even if they're not qualified
    Affirmative action is BS, rewarding losers for being losers, and making the deserving pay for it

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    Grand Count DarkPrincess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    Well...the coloured people will be running the country...that is why. You should have thought about this before you let all of these Mexicans emigrate here. Now you can't make them leave. Too bad. Move to New Zealand.
    Yeah, because the Mexicans tend to take jobs that white people are just scrambling for. Like picking tobacco or painting things for 5 bucks an hour, with no health insurance. That's my fucking American dream right there.
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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPrincess View Post
    Yeah, because the Mexicans tend to take jobs that white people are just scrambling for. Like picking tobacco or painting things for 5 bucks an hour, with no health insurance. That's my fucking American dream right there.
    Hey....there are literally....dozens of Caucasian people....recently paroled....who would....you know....be only to happy to enter the lucrative meat-packing industry.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    Great Baron jus shaking my head's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPrincess View Post
    Yeah, because the Mexicans tend to take jobs that white people are just scrambling for. Like picking tobacco or painting things for 5 bucks an hour, with no health insurance. That's my fucking American dream right there.
    I agree with you. The Mexicans are the new American Slave. It sickens me to see the way they are treated.

    The migrant workers here are some of the hardest working people in this rural area and are shown the least respect.
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    I can say with complete certainty, a fire doesn't care if one is black or white, nor do crew members. What does matter is having qualified men and women with the ability to make tough decisions on a case by case basis. That's why testing is so important..to weed out the weak mind and promote the strong mind. The tests should be tougher all the way around. People who wish to advance will work harder.

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    A Win! WTF it had to go to the supreme court to rule the most qualified gets the job?
    this sets a good precedent for the best man for the job. I would hate to think they have not been the most qualified firefighters in there just because of a notion that race
    has anything to do with it..

    Supreme Court rules for white firefighters in bias case


    A sharply divided Supreme Court ruled Monday that the city of New Haven, Conn., had discriminated against white firefighters, reversing a key decision by high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor.

    The court's much-anticipated 5-4 decision is guaranteed to become prime fodder for Sotomayor's Senate confirmation hearings. It also will change how employers handle hiring decisions.
    http://www.kansascity.com/444/story/1296673.html
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    Great President Castille's Avatar
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    Now, I agree with the supreme court ruling - in that, this was set up as the promotional device and they can't just scrap it because they don't like the color of who it advanced when that sort of discrimination was wholly unintentional. But, as an organization seeking diversity in leadership, I'd really examine whether the test has good, practical relationship with what it takes to do the job you're promoting for. I'm not sure why they didn't anticipate the problem they ran into. The test in question seemed overly academic, while being a fire fighter is not. Making those decisions in those moments, as well as leading people on a team, bear little relation to the written fire fighting exams I've seen. This was addressed more in their oral exam component, and the black guys fared better there, but it carried less weight. Black guys are at an academic disadvantage in this country, and those that are strong academically tend to be heavily recruited in other directions and seem less likely, to me, to end up in the fire dept (which in many locations still has strong strains of nepotism.) The test, while poorly considered, was still neutral in the end. You can't set it aside it based on the color of those promoted by it anymore than you could if it had promoted only black people. One hopes they more broadly consider their organizational goals in advance next time - like perhaps that mnemonic recitation of knowledge isn't really as desireable as force integration - rather than after the fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Castille View Post
    Now, I agree with the supreme court ruling - in that, this was set up as the promotional device and they can't just scrap it because they don't like the color of who it advanced when that sort of discrimination was wholly unintentional. But, as an organization seeking diversity in leadership, I'd really examine whether the test has good, practical relationship with what it takes to do the job you're promoting for. I'm not sure why they didn't anticipate the problem they ran into. The test in question seemed overly academic, while being a fire fighter is not. Making those decisions in those moments, as well as leading people on a team, bear little relation to the written fire fighting exams I've seen. This was addressed more in their oral exam component, and the black guys fared better there, but it carried less weight. Black guys are at an academic disadvantage in this country, and those that are strong academically tend to be heavily recruited in other directions and seem less likely, to me, to end up in the fire dept (which in many locations still has strong strains of nepotism.) The test, while poorly considered, was still neutral in the end. You can't set it aside it based on the color of those promoted by it anymore than you could if it had promoted only black people. One hopes they more broadly consider their organizational goals in advance next time - like perhaps that mnemonic recitation of knowledge isn't really as desireable as force integration - rather than after the fact.

    You have GOT to be kidding me, right? Just dumb ole fire fighters? Poor things, if they really had a brain they surely wouldn't be fighting fires! That's the biggest crock of bullshit I've ever read in my entire life, I believe! If you think the fire service is nothing but putting wet stuff on the red stuff I'm fortunate as fuck someone with that mentality is not on my squad. And since the majority of firefighters are also medics these days, I'm sure family members who are in need of assistance don't view them as poor intellectually challenged individuals who couldn't cut it in the "real thinking world".

    To excel in the fire service takes great intellect and the ability to think outside the box...not just carry a fire hose and point in the right direction. I see more intellect being expended by a Captain of a fire squad than I do a CEO pulling $300k+ a year.
    Last edited by Thinkgoat; July 2nd, 2009 at 01:02 AM.

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    Grand Count DarkPrincess's Avatar
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    I think Castille means that the tests they give firefighters have little to do with situations they face everyday as part of their job, not that they're stupid. I've never seen one of those tests so I don't know.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Castille View Post
    Now, I agree with the supreme court ruling - in that, this was set up as the promotional device and they can't just scrap it because they don't like the color of who it advanced when that sort of discrimination was wholly unintentional.
    I'm glad you agree. This of course is the crux of the matter. I wish you would have stopped here.

    But, as an organization seeking diversity in leadership, I'd really examine whether the test has good, practical relationship with what it takes to do the job you're promoting for. I'm not sure why they didn't anticipate the problem they ran into.
    Jesus Castille - where did you get the ability to talk out of both sides of your mouth at the same time. You begin by posing the goal as diversity and then talk about testing for criteria related to the job. The two have absolutely nothing to do with each other. Criteria driven testing is colorblind, evaluating whether or not the candidate has the desired qualifications for the job. If the goal is diversity, scrap the testing and promote strictly on a quota basis.

    The test in question seemed overly academic
    Ok - since you have entered this into the debate, and phrased it as such, what about the test is "overly academic"? If you would be so kind as to source this statement, perhaps I could take a look and determine the purpose of the questions, and explain them in a more pedestrian manner.

    bear little relation to the written fire fighting exams I've seen
    You have been privy to Fire Service Officers exams? What branch of the service are you in and what is your rank? Either 1) you are a current FF, and should know better, 2) There has been a breach in the document control procedures in the fire dept. you are familiar with, or 3) I call bullshit and you have no direct knowledge of current promotional exams.

    Black guys are at an academic disadvantage in this country, and those that are strong academically tend to be heavily recruited in other directions and seem less likely, to me, to end up in the fire dept (which in many locations still has strong strains of nepotism.)
    Since those po' ole' black folk cain't fine no odder jobs, dey be goin' to da fire dept. cause it don't need brains. - Well fuck me! Lets lower the standards then, in a profession that sees 100 FF deaths a year, so that those who don't do they letters or figgerin' too well can be achievers! BTW - a large percentage of those deaths are directly related to poor decisions on the part of leadership. The standards should be tightened, not loosened.

    And what does nepotism have to do with criterion based testing? - I don't get it.

    The test, while poorly considered, was still neutral in the end.
    For the love of Pete, will you make up your mind? I thought your whole ill-considered diatribe was that the test was skewed? And that it isn't fair to include writing in the exam because the black guys aren't good at it, but better at the oral exam? If it is neutral, what was the point of your post? That it's too hard?

    One hopes they more broadly consider their organizational goals in advance next time - like perhaps that mnemonic recitation of knowledge isn't really as desireable as force integration
    And this is the root problem of your whole argument - you propose that having more dark faces on the Chain-of-Command photo in the lobby is more important than having leaders that can pass tough, criterion based evaluations. Leaders responsible - literally - for the lives of the men under them.
    I won't go into your obvious mis-perceptions of the Fire Service; Thinkgoat covered those quite well. I will simply mention that the company level officer has to know about fire behavior, building construction (all facets from ranch houses to high-rises), meteorology, hydraulics, high angle rescue, automotive construction, emergency medicine (most at the EMT-P level), ad-nauseum.

    A current training motto in the fire service is "this isn't your fathers fire". It's not your fathers fire service anymore either, and it takes intelligence and skill to excel, because at the end of the day, we want everyone to go home. If you can lead me and make that happen, I don't care what color you are. Your abilities come first!
    Last edited by Lazlo; July 2nd, 2009 at 08:59 AM.

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    A current training motto in the fire service is "this isn't your fathers fire". It's not your fathers fire service anymore either, and it takes intelligence and skill to excel, because at the end of the day, we want everyone to go home. If you can lead me and make that happen, I don't care what color you are. Your abilities come first!

    that says it all. I don't think anyone in a dangerous situation wants to be led by the weak link just to satisfy Al Sharpton
    LOL I couldn't help myself he's such a racist asshole, just like Whoraldo, functional sociopaths, they'd kill for publicity and power

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    America needs more dumb, black fire-fighters!
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    Grand Count DarkPrincess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    America needs more dumb, black fire-fighters!
    Great idea. That way when someone inevitably sets your place on fire with you in it, they can fail trying to save your white ass and people of color can rejoice.
    Sleep brings no wish to fret
    My harrassed heart beneath;
    My only wish is to forget
    In endless sleep of death
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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPrincess View Post
    Great idea. That way when someone inevitably sets your place on fire with you in it, they can fail trying to save your white ass and people of color can rejoice.
    Will they be rejoicing as jubilantly as they were when O.J. was acquitted?
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  26. #26
    Grand Count DarkPrincess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    Will they be rejoicing as jubilantly as they were when O.J. was acquitted?
    Lets not get carried away. Although I might because you didn't offer ME any doughnuts.
    Sleep brings no wish to fret
    My harrassed heart beneath;
    My only wish is to forget
    In endless sleep of death
    ~Emily Bronte "The Horrors of Sleep"

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darkprincess View Post
    lets not get carried away. Although i might because you didn't offer me any doughnuts.

    They stole my mutha fuckin' donuts!

    I was going to insert a photo of Samuel L. Jackson, but I don't want to get into trouble
    Last edited by Pete Bondurant; July 2nd, 2009 at 03:30 PM.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  28. #28
    Great Count Angelinfl's Avatar
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    You know what... I'd want the most qualified person working on me as in nurse, fireman, paramedic... I could care less what color they are. I want to know how bright and capable they are and how they would carry out the duties of the job.

    The basic knowledge has to be there. If you didn't get a high enough score... study harder perhaps next time... but don't tos those who do well on the tests to the side till those that don't do so well do better.

    Give the most qualified person the job. Create real competition and motivaton based on knowledge and desire to succeed. To thy own self be true.

  29. #29
    Inscrutably Obvious
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    @Angelinfl,

    Right on the money! And if I may extend your comment some:

    The basic knowledge has to be there.
    The basic knowledge is required for the journeymen in these services. This test was a promotional exam - meaning these men and women are leading others into burning structures/forest fires. They had better have an iron fisted grasp on the advanced knowledge required. Furthermore, these positions entail a vast amount of paperwork. The paperwork tends to be the downfall of a lot of budding Captains. Their hands-on skills were good enough to get them considered, even promoted, but the essential reporting elements of the job defeated them. The amount of documentation mandated by the powers that be sucks, IMHO, but it is a fact of life in our increasingly litigious and government controlled society.

    And I will just give a quick mention to the grant writing skills on which so many departments rely. The fire service is terribly underfunded, and those with the most savvy authors are the ones that get the support. The departments NEED to cultivate talent that has superior communication skills. I feel the funding shortfall is largely due to the ignorance about; 1) fire fighting in general, clearly evinced in some of the above posts, and 2) the material demands of the average department. I am afraid that until the public perception of the Fire Fighter moves past the image of the dim-witted Beau-hunk, and real monetary support is given, along with an influx of talented and intellectually strong recruits, we will continue to see 100 deaths a year.

  30. #30
    Grand Prince
    malq's Avatar
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    Having been in firefighting courses over the last twenty years, I know my skills are rudimentary at best. It takes skill, intuitiveness, leadership, PRACTICE and sheer grit to be effective and safe,
    My skills have been limited to shipboard firefighting training. I have never actively fought one and it is my worst nightmare. My point is, it is not something that is ever mastered, just increased skill comes with training and it has to be the right person to begin with. I don't have that ability compared to the people who do it for a living. So original question 'why can't the white guy have the job?' is valid in that it was ridiculous for the original ruling to favor political correctness/ affirmative action.. Being a firefighter in any form has little to do with bravery and all about knowledge, skill and leadership.
    here is an example of what goes wrong on ships when poor decisions come into play.
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I"]YouTube - USS Forrestal Mishap July 29, 1967[/ame]
    Last edited by malq; July 6th, 2009 at 02:27 AM. Reason: typo
    "Where the fuck am I ? - Amelia Earhart, 1937

    You can say lots of bad things about pedophiles, but at least they drive slowly past schools.->malq

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