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Thread: Grandmother Donna Dull Took Pictures. The 'Gray Area' of Child Porn

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    Ticy-TacSpitterout Person MadmamainNC's Avatar
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    Grandmother Donna Dull Took Pictures. The 'Gray Area' of Child Porn

    Donna Dull ran some errands one day. Part of her list of things to do was to drop off pictures of her grandchild at the local Walmart to have them developed. Unfortunately for Ms. Dull, she didn't use a digital camera.
    Unfortunately for York County Pennsylvania Police, they are being sued.

    I am posting this here because there is a gray area of what is child pornography and what is cutesy (however embarrassing) pictures of a baby or toddler. What does one consider a 'gray area'?

    Spring Grove grandmother sues police

    Donna Dull said she was shocked.

    A man was shouting at her, "Drop your sandwich, get out of the car. Drop your sandwich, get out of the car."

    "I think I said, 'What?'" Dull said, according to court documents.

    Dull, then a 59-year-old Spring Grove grandmother, was arrested on child pornography charges on March 14, 2005, in the parking lot of the West Manchester Mall.

    A Wal-Mart employee had contacted police about pictures Dull had dropped off for development. The photos were of Dull's young granddaughter at bath time.

    The child abuse charges were later dropped at the direction of York County District Attorney Stan Rebert, who told the court at the time he did not think the requisite "intent" to distribute child pornography was present in the case.

    In court documents, Dull had maintained the pictures she took were innocent photographs intended only for the family album.

    "It was a shame that it happened," Dull's attorney, John Yaninek, said.

    Yaninek said Dull was "unfortunately" caught up in the public battle against child pornography.

    "That wasn't the case with Donna and thankfully that part of it is over," Yaninek said.

    In 2007, Dull filed a federal civil lawsuit claiming West Manchester Township Police and York City Police had violated her constitutional rights. Specifically, Dull claimed officers used excessive force and violence when they arrested her.

    Rest of the story here http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_12279968

    Another follow up article
    Grandmother was caught in 'gray area' of child porn law

    Christopher Moore, a special prosecutor in the York County District Attorney's Office, is after "perverts, not parents."

    Moore was commenting on the "gray area" between the typical family picture of the 2-year-old getting a bath in the kitchen sink and a picture a pedophile may enjoy.

    It can be the same picture, Moore said.

    But, Moore added, that is not a reason for parents and grandparents to avoid taking those pictures.

    "They're keepsakes," he said. "They remind us of the way they were when they were young before they became a pain in the ass.

    "It's not what the (child protection) law was designed for. Your rights are not restricted in any form by the law."

    The vagueness of that "gray area" became apparent in May 2005 when police handcuffed a Spring Grove grandmother in a West Manchester Township parking lot on suspicion of child pornography.

    Donna Dull, then 59, had dropped off a roll of 35 mm film at Wal-Mart for development. Among the photos, when they were printed, were some of Dull's naked 3-year-old grandaughter in a number of poses.

    A Wal-Mart employee contacted West Manchester Township Police and turned the photos over to them. Officers arrested Dull after she returned to the store to pick up her pictures.

    Rest of article here http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_12279963
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    When my kids were young, I took bathtub photos, and when I had them developed the tech warned me not to bring anymore in because they were required to report even baby nudes as child pornography. While I think this is a good idea overall, maybe a sign should be posted at the counter to warn well-meaning grandparents/parents.
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    Non-cooch slinger Rotten Apple's Avatar
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    I'd heard about case like this before I was a parent, so I was always careful. I have tons of bathtub pics of my daughter...none of them have her genitals showing though.

    Babies are usually so happy and playful during bath time. It is natural to want to record that. It sucks that perverts have taken that and ruined it.

    Sucks even more that taxpayer money is being wasted going after these people.

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    She's not suing them because she got arrested. She's suing them for use of excessive force. (PDF of her complaint: http://extras.mnginteractive.com/liv...lcomplaint.pdf )

    Even if she was a child pornographer, I'm not sure body slamming a 59 year old, 5 foot/135lb woman is going to look good - Her only weapon was a chicken sandwich.
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    Nun the worse for where Sister Iroz's Avatar
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    While I think this is a good idea overall, maybe a sign should be posted at the counter to warn well-meaning grandparents/parents.
    That's a good idea for them to do Kitty. I to took pics of my kids in the bath but nothing was ever said to me when I got them developed but that was like 17 yrs. or so ago.

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    Ticy-TacSpitterout Person MadmamainNC's Avatar
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    I really like the snarkiness of this Christopher Moore character.

    But, Moore added, that is not a reason for parents and grandparents to avoid taking those pictures.

    "They're keepsakes," he said. "They remind us of the way they were when they were young before they became a pain in the ass.
    Further down the article he is quoted as saying
    "It's a subjective versus objective standard," Moore said. "You think it's cute. Someone else might think different. That doesn't make it a crime.

    "Lots of sexual offenders use the Sears catalog to get off. That doesn't make (the catalog) illegal."
    I think most of us have these types of pictures sitting in a dusty old box.
    I checked the registry to make sure her name wasn't still listed.
    I am curious to know if they are in CPS files. Because once in there, it's very hard to have your name removed. Even after being proven innocent. Happens all the time.

    I am 100% on grandma's side here.
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    Super Bowl XLV Champions! MichaelJCheaney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadmamainNC View Post
    I really like the snarkiness of this Christopher Moore character.



    Further down the article he is quoted as saying


    I think most of us have these types of pictures sitting in a dusty old box.
    I checked the registry to make sure her name wasn't still listed.
    I am curious to know if they are in CPS files. Because once in there, it's very hard to have your name removed. Even after being proven innocent. Happens all the time.

    I am 100% on grandma's side here.
    I am totally with Grandma here too.

    It doesn't seem right that because some sick fuck MAY find himself whacking himself off at the sight of a naked baby, that parents and grandparents should "self censor" and not take pictures of their kids during bath time.

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    Ticy-TacSpitterout Person MadmamainNC's Avatar
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    I know MJC, I mean WTF? We wouldn't have anything to embarrass them or bribe them with.

    I have to question the Walmart worker on this one. Why did it make her feel it was porn... hmmm? Fire the bitch!
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    Super Bowl XLV Champions! MichaelJCheaney's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadmamainNC View Post
    I know MJC, I mean WTF? We wouldn't have anything to embarrass them or bribe them with.

    I have to question the Walmart worker on this one. Why did it make her feel it was porn... hmmm? Fire the bitch!
    Exactly....on both counts.

    But if I do remember correctly it was around 2004-05 that Wal-Mart was being overly sensitive about reporting anything even remotely close to being regarded as porn?

    When did good old common sense become lost.

    I'm looking at a picture of a baby in a bathtub and my first thought is NOT, "gee this looks pornographic", I should call the cops.....

    No.

    My first thought is: "Thank God my kid doesn't look like that!"

    But seriously....The baby in the bathtub pictures are the one that the parents treasure the most, and your right, they do make for great bribes too. They certainly did in my case anyway....

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    Walmart photo workers would probably lose their job for making a judgment call. I bet Walmart has CYA rules they have to follow. The cops, on the other hand, are in a better position to decide things. If they were stupid enough to think a little old lady with a chicken sandwach deserved the treatment they gave her, I can see them being stupid enough to think that was pornography.
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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Witchhunt.

    Creating pictures of naked children does not create pedophiles.

    Eradicating pictures of naked children does not eradicate pedophiles.

    Meanwhile, as prosecutorial discretion has quickly become an oxymoron, it gets more and more difficult to hold them accountable for their over-zealousness.

    I'm not arguing in favor of decriminalizing child porn. But frankly, this woman's experience is negligible in comparison to some of the damage done to the lives of those falsely accused in this hyper-aggressive campaign of ours. Are there really so few obvious child porn manufacturers that we must malign circumstance where there is none?
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    Grand Baron sherrz's Avatar
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    DA Rebert is a fucking retard. He's up for re-election this year, he better not get back. They had this all over the news.
    prepare for a pride-obliterating bitch slap

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    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

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    I wonder how many pedos actually take their photos to Walmart - other than the really really stupid ones. They'll get caught quick without Walmart turning them in. They're the ones drooling by the horsie ride on the way in.
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    Ticy-TacSpitterout Person MadmamainNC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrz View Post
    DA Rebert is a fucking retard. He's up for re-election this year, he better not get back. They had this all over the news.
    I knew some Rebert's over in Hanover, they were assholes too. Wonder if they're related? As for York County Cops, I knew one in Hanover Boro who was halfway decent but he was young and green, the rest were anal retentive morons. That includes Penn Township and West Manhiem
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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MadmamainNC View Post
    the rest were anal retentive morons. That includes Penn Township and West Manhiem

    West Manheim fucking rules!

    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  17. #17
    Grand Baron sherrz's Avatar
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    West York cops are the worst.

    I had a friend that was walking around in West York, and he's Hispanic. He got stopped by a West York cop and the cop told him to go back into the city where he belongs "with the rest of his kind."

    How fucked up is that?
    prepare for a pride-obliterating bitch slap

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    Grand Baron sherrz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    West Manheim fucking rules!

    No, Pete. It doesn't. There's nothing to do there.
    prepare for a pride-obliterating bitch slap

    Though the favorites of the gods die young, they also live eternally in the company of gods. -Nietzsche


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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrz View Post
    West York cops are the worst.

    I had a friend that was walking around in West York, and he's Hispanic. He got stopped by a West York cop and the cop told him to go back into the city where he belongs "with the rest of his kind."

    How fucked up is that?

    That sounds like responsible law-enforcement to me.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  20. #20
    Ticy-TacSpitterout Person MadmamainNC's Avatar
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    They're asshole's there. In Hanover, we have very few minorities and the townsfolk hated the Marylander's because they claimed we brought them in. Only thing that made that town halfway tolerable was we Marylander's and it broke my heart the way they treated outsiders and minorities -especially the kids.

    So none of the above with Ms. Dull, surprises me in the least. I think they've dipped into the lead paint one time too many.
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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    HANOVER P.D. RULES! #1

    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  22. #22
    Grand Baron sherrz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    HANOVER P.D. RULES! #1

    NOOOOOO those fuckers pulled me over and popped me for driving without a license. I hate them forever for that.
    prepare for a pride-obliterating bitch slap

    Though the favorites of the gods die young, they also live eternally in the company of gods. -Nietzsche


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  23. #23
    Ticy-TacSpitterout Person MadmamainNC's Avatar
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    LOL Now Pete has peaked my curiosity. Wonder if I helped him get Food Stamps once?
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  24. #24
    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrz View Post
    NOOOOOO those fuckers pulled me over and popped me for driving without a license. I hate them forever for that.


    It is not their fault that you were in violation of the law. You have only yourself to blame for this incident.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  25. #25
    Grand Baron sherrz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    It is not their fault that you were in violation of the law. You have only yourself to blame for this incident.
    I know, but they could have been nicer to me. They were very not nice. They searched my car like I had something illegal in there, and patted me down and everything. They didn't even have probable cause.

    And all I was trying to do was get my daughter diapers. I wasn't even 5 seconds from my house.
    prepare for a pride-obliterating bitch slap

    Though the favorites of the gods die young, they also live eternally in the company of gods. -Nietzsche


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  26. #26
    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrz View Post
    I know, but they could have been nicer to me. They were very not nice. They searched my car like I had something illegal in there, and patted me down and everything. They didn't even have probable cause.

    They had two probable causes for patting you down, and I've seen them in the RLD.
    Yet know, my master, God omnipotent,
    Is mustering in his clouds on our behalf
    Armies of pestilence; and they shall strike
    Your children yet unborn and unbegot,
    That lift your vassal hands against my head
    And threat the glory of my precious crown.

  27. #27
    Grand Baron sherrz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    They had two probable causes for patting you down, and I've seen them in the RLD.
    Oh hush, Pete. It's not like I was on my way back from robbing a bank or anything though.
    prepare for a pride-obliterating bitch slap

    Though the favorites of the gods die young, they also live eternally in the company of gods. -Nietzsche


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  28. #28
    Great President Castille's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sherrz View Post
    I know, but they could have been nicer to me. They were very not nice. They searched my car like I had something illegal in there, and patted me down and everything. They didn't even have probable cause.

    And all I was trying to do was get my daughter diapers. I wasn't even 5 seconds from my house.
    Most insurance won't pay if the person driving the car is unlicensed. So, effectively, driving uninsured. Uninsured drivers make me angry. Maybe the cops share my sentiment. But it was probably the breasts ;)

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