Religious Child Abuse?

[LadyValkyrie37]

Um... as a Pagan... I must point out... that the word "Pagan" and "Christian" shouldn't be used like that, You are either one, or the other... there really is no in between, combining those to words to insinuate that it is one religion... well that's like insisting an apple is in fact an orange... when it is indeed still an apple...

LMAO! You are not telling me anything I haven't already heard before. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs and opinions as I am. Now here are my beliefs and opinions.

I'm very eclectic in my spiritual beliefs. I blend Christianity, Paganism, & Witchcraft into my own spiritual beliefs. I also blend aspects of LaVeyan Satanism, Buddhism, and Native American Spirituality into my spiritual practices. I take what I feel is right and beneficial for me personally from each of these religions, beliefs, and philosophies and leave the rest. But to clarify even more, I am a Pagan who embraces the Holy Trinity as my chosen Diety. I worship Father God, Mother Goddess (who to me is the Holy Spirit), and their son Jesus the Christ (the annointed one). I don't believe that The Holy Bible is infalliable. In fact I believe at one time it was the inspired word of God, however, it was written by the hands of imperfect men who have their own selfish agendas. I not only read and study the Holy Bible though. I also suppliment my studies with other Christian and Gnostic texts such as "The Lost Books of the Bible," "The Pistis Sophia," The Nag Hammadi Library," and "The Apocrypha." I look at all of these texts, including The Holy Bible, as spiritual texts that have spiritual lessons within. I apply what I feel is beneficial to me and leave the rest. I also practice Witchcraft... more specifically I'm what they call a "kitchen witch" where hearth and home is my main focus. With that said I am indeed a Christian Pagan Witch... or if you prefer an Ecletic Pagan.

So, disagree with me if you so choose, but religious and spiritual journeys are individual ones. One can't tell another one that their form of religion or spirituality is wrong unless of course someone is being harmed.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Um... as a Pagan... I must point out... that the word "Pagan" and "Christian" shouldn't be used like that, You are either one, or the other... there really is no in between, combining those to words to insinuate that it is one religion... well that's like insisting an apple is in fact an orange... when it is indeed still an apple...

I'm curious... do you know what the Amish are? Do you know what the Pennsylvania Dutch are? Have you ever heard of Pennsylvania Dutch Pow-Wow? Many of the PA Dutch (Amish), especially the older order practice Pow-Wow, which is basically folk magick. Imagine that, a group of people who are Christians and yet practice folk magick. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pow-wow_(folk_magic)

Have you ever studied the history of Santeria? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Santer%C3%ADa It is a blending of an Afro-Carribean Pagan religion with Roman Catholism.

The lines between Paganism, Witchcraft and Christianity have been blurred for a very long time.

[VisualKei]

Christian and Pagan are antonyms... words that in popular culture mean the opposite. You can be a Christian Spiritualist, but, if you believe in anything implied by the word Pagan, then you are not in fact a Christian in any way shape or form.

Ohh... Do I see Wikipedia there in your posts... wow, articles that can be edited at will, I don't take any stock in most of what is on that website, but thanks anyway.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Christian and Pagan are antonyms... words that in popular culture mean the opposite. You can be a Christian Spiritualist, but, if you believe in anything implied by the word Pagan, then you are not in fact a Christian in any way shape or form.

Ohh... Do I see Wikipedia there in your posts... wow, articles that can be edited at will, I don't take any stock in most of what is on that website, but thanks anyway.

First of all if you don't like wikipedia then simply google the words "Pennsylvania Dutch Pow-Wow" and "Santeria" and choose for yourself which website you wish to get your information from. In the end you will see that both religions/spiritual practices are a blending of Christianity, Witchcraft aand Paganism.

The word "pagan" comes from the Latin word "paganus" which meant "civilian" or "country dweller." "Paganus" is also related to the Latin word "pagus" which means "the country district." Early in the Christian church's history the churches were mainly found in the larger cities, which meant that the majority of city dwellers were Christians. However, the further outside of the city you went you would find less and less Christians. In fact you would find those who still practiced the land's native religion/spiritual practices. City dwelling Christians referred to such people in a derrogatory was as "pagans." The same can be said of the word "heathen" which originally meant "one who lives on the heath." In modern times Paganism refers to any religion that is not of Christian, Judaic, or Islamic origins.

So if I called myself an "Eclectic Pagan" or an "Christian Spiritualist" you would be more ready to accept my religious/spiritual beliefs? Or are you so blinded by your hatred of anything remotely Christian having anything to do with Paganism that won't accept my religious/spiritual practices no matter what I call myself?

Either way, I choose to call myself a Christian Pagan Witch, if you are not comfortable with it, sucks to be you.

[VisualKei]

So if I called myself an "Eclectic Pagan" or an "Christian Spiritualist" you would be more ready to accept my religious/spiritual beliefs? Or are you so blinded by your hatred of anything remotely Christian having anything to do with Paganism that won't accept my religious/spiritual practices no matter what I call myself?

Um... correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do believe I was speaking English in my posts... and upon reviewing them I can not find the word hate or hatred anywhere in them. In fact I have read the bible from cover to cover. Probably something of which you have never done yourself. I have said nothing pertaining to "non-acceptance" either, I have simply pointed out the flaws in your logic pertaining to the statement you made.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Um... correct me if I'm wrong here, but I do believe I was speaking English in my posts... and upon reviewing them I can not find the word hate or hatred anywhere in them. In fact I have read the bible from cover to cover. Probably something of which you have never done yourself. I have said nothing pertaining to "non-acceptance" either, I have simply pointed out the flaws in your logic pertaining to the statement you made.

So you believe that I've never read the Bible from cover to cover, eh? lol I was an evangelical Christian for 10 years before I became a Christian Pagan Witch. I've read it from cover to cover several times over. And no you never said the word hate but your hatred for such things is quite evident. You are not just pointing out what you perceive is illogical, you have a way with your words that shows your distaste for anything remotely Christian touching anything Pagan. I've come across many like you. In the end people like you are just like the extreme fanatical Christians that you loathe and there is absolutely no sense in discussing it further, for in your eyes you are right I am wrong and that is that... no regard to that everyone has a right to worship as they so choose. If I'm wrong about you then I concede, but I doubt that I am. I will not discuss this any further with you.

[Miss. Hill]

I don't practice Santeria I ain't got no crystal ball if I had a million dollars.... sorry reading the above brought it to mind. Umm you can believe what ever ya want, you can even create your own religion...

Here's how simple God-creation can be:


1) Create a God. One with a catchy name is best. Should be simple and out of the ordinary, but not too far out that people can't remember it.


2) Make it in charge of something people already focus on, but don't have a target for that focus.


3) Make it something that people will be reminded of frequently.



4) Make it easy for them to "buy into" the worship of your New God.


5) Make it ambiguous. Let both sides of an argument claim it as their own.



6) Establish some standards by which the God should be referred to, creating an intrinsic reverence right from the start.


7) Make cool symbols. They should be things that people already know and see everywhere. And they should be easy to draw and say.




8) You need an opposing force. Not necessarily an arch-enemy, but an opposite perspective so that people can pick sides and fight over things.


9) You need to confuse everybody. This will make sure that nobody can be really certain WHAT they believe, because it is all so nonsensical to begin with. And when you don't spell it out exactly (or even if you do) you know how those funny humans will all magically just get along, right!



And last but certainly not least:


10) The Big Reward. You know everything you always wished you had in this life? After you die, you'll get it! We promise! Hot women. Cute Guys. Flying Cars. Washboard abs. Rivers of Chocolate that won't add an ounce or an inch to your perfectly fit, weightless body. And lots of cute, adorable fluffy bunnies to frolic with in virgin green pastures.


11) Get The Word Out!

What good is creating your own religion if you can't get people to worship your Gods and beg you for guidance because they don't trust themselves to navigate their own way through life?



Good luck :)

[VisualKei]

So you believe that I've never read the Bible from cover to cover, eh? lol I was an evangelical Christian for 10 years before I became a Christian Pagan Witch. I've read it from cover to cover several times over. And no you never said the word hate but your hatred for such things is quite evident. You are not just pointing out what you perceive is illogical, you have a way with your words that shows your distaste for anything remotely Christian touching anything Pagan. I've come across many like you. In the end people like you are just like the extreme fanatical Christians that you loathe and there is absolutely no sense in discussing it further, for in your eyes you are right I am wrong and that is that... no regard to that everyone has a right to worship as they so choose. If I'm wrong about you then I concede, but I doubt that I am. I will not discuss this any further with you.

Reading implies comprehension. You saying that you were an "Evangelical Christian" (I am using your own words here) implies the lack of comprehension as 90% of the EC's take on their own twisted view on the written word, so while you having been an EC, and might possibly be able to quote scripture to me 7 ways from Sunday, do you have the basic comprehension of the scripture that you are quoting? I don't loathe Christians, my best friend is a Christian, I loathe uneducated, attention seeking sycophants, with a propensity for avid stupidity.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Reading implies comprehension. You saying that you were an "Evangelical Christian" (I am using your own words here) implies the lack of comprehension as 90% of the EC's take on their own twisted view on the written word, so while you having been an EC, and might possibly be able to quote scripture to me 7 ways from Sunday, do you have the basic comprehension of the scripture that you are quoting? I don't loathe Christians, my best friend is a Christian, I loathe uneducated, attention seeking sycophants, with a propensity for avid stupidity.

That reminds me of a thread somewhere on this site about how some people use "I have a black friend" as an excuse for their rascism. My opinion of you is now solidified, you are filled with hatred for all things remotely Christian.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

LMAO! You are not telling me anything I haven't already heard before. You are certainly entitled to your own beliefs and opinions as I am. Now here are my beliefs and opinions.

I'm very eclectic in my spiritual beliefs. I blend Christianity, Paganism, & Witchcraft into my own spiritual beliefs. I also blend aspects of LaVeyan Satanism, Buddhism, and Native American Spirituality into my spiritual practices. I take what I feel is right and beneficial for me personally from each of these religions, beliefs, and philosophies and leave the rest. But to clarify even more, I am a Pagan who embraces the Holy Trinity as my chosen Diety. I worship Father God, Mother Goddess (who to me is the Holy Spirit), and their son Jesus the Christ (the annointed one). I don't believe that The Holy Bible is infalliable. In fact I believe at one time it was the inspired word of God, however, it was written by the hands of imperfect men who have their own selfish agendas. I not only read and study the Holy Bible though. I also suppliment my studies with other Christian and Gnostic texts such as "The Lost Books of the Bible," "The Pistis Sophia," The Nag Hammadi Library," and "The Apocrypha." I look at all of these texts, including The Holy Bible, as spiritual texts that have spiritual lessons within. I apply what I feel is beneficial to me and leave the rest. I also practice Witchcraft... more specifically I'm what they call a "kitchen witch" where hearth and home is my main focus. With that said I am indeed a Christian Pagan Witch... or if you prefer an Ecletic Pagan.

So, disagree with me if you so choose, but religious and spiritual journeys are individual ones. One can't tell another one that their form of religion or spirituality is wrong unless of course someone is being harmed.

Oooooh GOD! (pun intended)

Are you fucking KIDDING ME? Call it spiritual if you will, but you cant blend those philosophies into---calling it a Christian PAGAN WITCH! What!????

You DO realize how those religions DRASTICALLY oppose each other, right? I mean, fucking drastically....and Im curious, as to where this huge blend comes from.

Edit---Jesus fuck, man. Anton LeVeyan satanism? Native American practices too? Lady....wow. I mean, wow.

Im truly curious---how did all this shit fall into one pot?

[swivel]

Oooooh GOD! (pun intended)

Are you fucking KIDDING ME? Call it spiritual if you will, but you cant blend those philosophies into---calling it a Christian PAGAN WITCH! What!????

You DO realize how those religions DRASTICALLY oppose each other, right? I mean, fucking drastically....and Im curious, as to where this huge blend comes from.

Well, if she is a blend, then she isn't claiming to be any of them. Does witchcraft make her a non-Christian? Of course. But, what if she is a person who casts spells, and thinks that Jesus was the son of the universal creator? That would be a blend of two mutually-exclusive things, but since she isn't claiming to be "either" of them, it isn't a contradiction.

My two cents.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Well, if she is a blend, then she isn't claiming to be any of them. Does witchcraft make her a non-Christian? Of course. But, what if she is a person who casts spells, and thinks that Jesus was the son of the universal creator? That would be a blend of two mutually-exclusive things, but since she isn't claiming to be "either" of them, it isn't a contradiction.

My two cents.

Sweet logic. By claiming to be both of them....hmmmm....

I dont say any of this to be mean, Lady V, Im truly curious, because holy shit, man...I mean---Im not saying SHIT is really holy, er----aw fuck, Im confused now. :(

[Dark Star]

LadyVal...Either way, I choose to call myself a Christian Pagan Witch, if you are not comfortable with it, sucks to be you.

Geez, Val. No, really with the attitude you have. It seems to suck more to be you. I do not understand why you have to be so goddamn hateful. Is that what you get out of your Christian/Pagan/Witch teachings? Bullshit. Bleck that's why I hate religions, no one ever practices the shit they fucking preach.

[LadyValkyrie37]

The following is a website started by author Nancy Chandler Pittman. She wrote a book called "Christian Wicca: The Trinitarian Tradition" Now I do not follow Wicca but this is a prime example of how Christianity and Paganism can indeed be blended. I encourage those who are truely open and interested in learning to look around the website and read Nancy's essays, some of which are excerpts from her book. http://www.christianwicca.org/

Here is another website by a well known Christian Witch by the name of Rawna Moon. I encourage those who are truely open and interested in learning to look around the website http://members.aol.com/RawnaMoon/

[LadyValkyrie37]

Geez, Val. No, really with the attitude you have. It seems to suck more to be you. I do not understand why you have to be so goddamn hateful. Is that what you get out of your Christian/Pagan/Witch teachings? Bullshit. Bleck that's why I hate religions, no one ever practices the shit they fucking preach.

Do you not understand how frustrating it can be for someone to ride your back over semantics? Do you realize how frustrating it is for someone to hound you in two threads all because they don't believe your relgious title is logical? Yeah I said it sucks to be them because it seriously must suck to be them... to be that bothered by someone's religious title. Step back from your own religious biases Hippie and see this for what it really is. Yeah it's frustrating and yeah I have every fucking right to have a little bit of a fucking attitude. Hell's bells even Jesus got fucking pissed off and drove out the money changers from the temple. Being frustrated and angry is not a sin for heaven's sake! Geeze!

[Miss. Hill]

I see Christian paganism as a beginning step for an individual raised in a christian background finding witch craft/ paganism for the first time. It's hard to let go of old beliefs especially Christian ones as they seem to be brain washed into their members. I went to the sites you linked to and feel they reiterated my belief that Christian paganism is a middle ground between Christianity and Paganism (obviously). A safe place where you are not totally turning your back on your prior beliefs. I was there once and the more research I did the more I realised Christianity, Catholicism, the bible what ever was all bull crap.

I'm not knocking or mocking your choices, If your chosen faith makes you happy go with it and good luck.

[VisualKei]

On a completely unrelated topic for a split second... Hey LadyV, do you know what the edit button is? Double posting is really really annoying...

[LadyValkyrie37]

On a completely unrelated topic for a split second... Hey LadyV, do you know what the edit button is? Double posting is really really annoying...

Nowhere have I double posted. I have posted two times in a row but have said different things in each post... but I have not double posted where I have posted the exact same thing twice.

[VisualKei]

You are seriously stupid... double posting insinuates (in most forum ethics, I should know I've ran a forum myself for the past 7 years) that you post one post right after another... (quite often in order to increase your post count, which if that is the case, is when I would effectively call you a post whore) without waiting for a response from another... if you have a secondary thought, it's called a "new paragraph", or using the edit button...

[CPL CHUD]

I'm speaking for myself here but I don't really think there is a big problem with that here. I've probably done it myself.

[LadyValkyrie37]

You are seriously stupid... double posting insinuates (in most forum ethics, I should know I've ran a forum myself for the past 7 years) that you post one post right after another... (quite often in order to increase your post count, which if that is the case, is when I would effectively call you a post whore) without waiting for a response from another... if you have a secondary thought, it's called a "new paragraph", or using the edit button...

Wait a minute, I post as I read. For instance I read Hippies post and then I respond. Then I read your post and then I respond again. If it happens that both my responses end up back to back so what?! Is it my fault that noone posted in between the time I was reading and responding to two posts? No! By your logic in order to not be considered a "post whore" I would have to read an entire thread, no matter how long that thread is, and give all my responses to everyone's posts in one very long post. WTF?! I think you are the one who is stupid... or you are just grasping now at shit to nit pick about. Are you a mod on this forum? If not keep your expertise to yourself. Go run your own forum the way you see fit. Unless the mods here have issues with what or how I post I see nothing wrong with what or how I'm posting. You want to talk about forum ethics... normally threads are supposed to be kept on topic and not hijaked. Normally if someone has personal issues with another person they take their issues to PM's as I have been informed in the short amount of time I've been on this forum. So, from now on unless you have something to say about the topic of this thread to me, how about you and I take it to PM.

[ells9824]

I'm going to jump in here,because there is a feature that I didn't understand at first, either.

If there are 3 replies to a post of yours,or you see things in a few posts that you want to address, there is a way to do it.

When you use the quote+ button,it will add each post you hit it on to your reply. When you are ready to respond, just edit each one down to the point you want to address.

I haven't seen that on any other boards and I think its kind of a neat feature.

[LadyValkyrie37]

I'm going to jump in here,because there is a feature that I didn't understand at first, either.

If there are 3 replies to a post of yours,or you see things in a few posts that you want to address, there is a way to do it.

When you use the quote+ button,it will add each post you hit it on to your reply. When you are ready to respond, just edit each one down to the point you want to address.

I haven't seen that on any other boards and I think its kind of a neat feature.

Whoa! Sweet! I had no clue! Thanks! Now I just have to remember to actually use it.

[gprime]

Getting back to the original question...

I do think that generally indoctrinating your children with religion is child abuse. But there is a fine line between exposure and indoctrination. For example, I don't feel any of the Jewish camps or schools I went to, religious as they were, tried to seriously indoctrinate me. Theologically, they weren't all that strict. And with the exception of keeping a few select holidays, my parents never enforced any of it at home. Indeed, when I did become Orthodox for a couple of years, it was entirely of my own volition, and something my parents found rather odd. When I eventually had the sense to become an Atheist, it was again based on my own pondering and decision-making.

It might be worthwhile to leave education about religion until later, as Swivel proposed earlier. But it might also cause problems, with rituals like a Bar Mitzvah or confirmation. And too many parents are religious for us to ever take custody of all of their children. So I think from an abuse-prevention point of view, we need to work first on dealing with the most extreme cases of indoctrination, and work from there.

[swivel]

gprime, I have yet to see a Jewish learning environment which did not stress the superiority of that culture above all others. I have yet to meet a Jewish mom that was anything less than suicidal when they found out their child was in love with a non-Jew.

Perhaps they are insular for purely defensive purposes, that is a debate we could have sometime, but very few groups segregate themselves from the rest of society the way that Jews are fond of doing.

To me, spreading that sort of nonsense, from parent to child, is abuse.

[Miss. Hill]

Please don't spank me for this....


I thought it was funny:D

[Becca]

Miss. Hill, that is awesome!! I'm gonna save that and give it to my boss on my last day!!

[LadyValkyrie37]

Miss Hill... who exactly are you referring to as a cunt?

[Miss. Hill]

Not you if thats what your asking just thought it was a funny image, and the original post was in regards to religion. I'm not an argumenative person so don't get defensive. I had and have no in tentions of picking fights unless you start with me :D

[LadyValkyrie37]

Not you if thats what your asking just thought it was a funny image, and the original post was in regards to religion. I'm not an argumenative person so don't get defensive. I had and have no in tentions of picking fights unless you start with me :D

Thank you for clarifing that for me. I have no intentions of starting anything with you either unless you start with me. So I guess it's all good then.