Religious Child Abuse?

[LadyValkyrie37]

Is the religious indoctrination of one's own children considered child abuse? Does it depend upon how extreme one's religious views are? Does it also depend upon how one specifically indoctrinates one's own child? Have you known anyone who in your opinion could be accused of religious child abuse?

[swivel]

Yes.
No.
No.
Yes.

[Morbid]

A friend of mine has a sister-in-law who I feel is abusing her kids via religion. Not unlike a co-worker of mine. Personally, with my kids, I am letting them decide. They are exposed to it all. They have friends of different faiths and they are allowed to go with any of them for their particular "recruitment" functions.

Religion should be a personal choice, IMO. I understand why kids are indoctrinated into religion, as it makes since from the religious standpoint.

But I am not religious. So I don't indoctrinate my kids into that either. When they ask questions, I am always very careful that I explain what other people believe, but unless I am asked specifically, I leave my personal beliefs out of the answer, meaning I never specify which one of my examples is what I believe..

Not saying any of that is right, it is just the most comfortable for me.

[swivel]

I think kids should be 16 or so before we expose them to myth. That way, they will recognize it as such.

[Athena]

I think kids should be 16 or so before we expose them to myth. That way, they will recognize it as such.

I was raised with it from birth and still recognised it as such.

I strongly believe that religion is a biological function. I realise the role indoctrination plays, but I doubt that, in this stage of evolution, any method of upbringing would eradicate religon.

[swivel]

I strongly believe that religion is a biological function. I realise the role indoctrination plays, but I doubt that, in this stage of evolution, any method of upbringing would eradicate religon.

Why not? If you don't teach it, you won't have it. Sure, you will always have other, simpler forms of superstition. You will have accounts of fantasy that spread and become part of the culture. But if you don't have a person asking for your money, and telling you what your morals have to be, then where is the religion?

I don't think religion serves any function other than to perpetuate itself.

[Pirelli Jones]

Self-perpetuation is one function but its shortsighted to not recognize the development of the citizenry. Most of your mainstream denominations encourage citizenship and observe a politically rooted holiday like the 4th of July to show their appreciation for the tax status.

[Athena]

Self-perpetuation is one function but its shortsighted to not recognize the development of the citizenry. Most of your mainstream denominations encourage citizenship and observe a politically rooted holiday like the 4th of July to show their appreciation for the tax status.

It goes beyond this, but I'll have to address the thread tomorrow. I been drinkin'.

That being said, great thread, Lady V.

[CPL CHUD]

Let me tell you about this kid I knew named Todd.

Todd had uber religious parents. The kind of ones that paid for other kids to go to summer bible school (like me). Todd was brought up in an enviroment where not going to church as much as possible was akin to sin. He was so indocterated with religion from such an early age that he thinks that people with enough faith gain super powers. Todd still plays with legos. Todd writes cryptic passages about the end of the world and pastes them on his bedroom window.

I never, ever even want to risk any of my future offspring ending up like Todd.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Is the religious indoctrination of one's own children considered child abuse? It could be.

Does it depend upon how extreme one's religious views are? Most definately.

Does it also depend upon how one specifically indoctrinates one's own child? Yes.

Have you known anyone who in your opinion could be accused of religious child abuse? Yes, My grandmother and my cousin.


My parents were not religious in the least bit. My grandmother, however, was an extreme fanatical evangelical Christian (holy rollin' & tongue talkin'). Her style of Christianity was full of criticism, judgement, intolerance and even hate. Simple things like the cutting of a woman's hair, the wearing of makeup, the wearing of pants, shorts, swimsuits, jewelry and even the braiding of one's hair were all sins. My grandmother and her church took Bible thumping to the max. Inspite of all of that I still chose to spend time at her house as a teen because there was better than at my own home. My grandmother adopted my cousin and raised her as her own. My grandmother is now dead, my cousin is now just as my grandmother was. My cousin actually adopted her younger brother and put him through the same hell as our grandmother put her through. My cousin and I no longer communicate because of the constant badgering I get about my sinful lifestyle. I believe what both me and my cousin experienced was religious child abuse. Unfortunately my cousin had to live with our grandmother 24/7.

Inspite of my experience with my grandmother I became an evangelical Christian myself and was one for 10 years. Seven of those ten years I was taught by the church to stay with my abusive husband (the father of my three children) because of a certain scripture that states that the marriage is sanctified through the believeing spouse and that if the believeing spouse continues to be a witness for Jesus the unbelieving spouse may be saved. I was so brainwashed! What a lovely example I was setting for my children eh?

I'm no longer an evangelical Christian. I no longer push religion or spirituality onto my children. If they have questions I answer them to the best of my abilities. I'm a Christian Pagan Witch now and I do not involve my children in any of my religious practices. I don't go to church nor do I gather with a coven. I'm a solitary practioner.

I often think about those parents who are not fanatics like my grandmother and cousin. Those parents who believe in God and Jesus and feel, because the Bible teaches it, to teach their children the ways of God and the Gospel story of Jesus. Is it wrong for those parents to do their, I guess what we could call, their "religious duty" as a parent so long as they are not being extreme fanatics? Where is that fine line drawn?

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Is the religious indoctrination of one's own children considered child abuse? Does it depend upon how extreme one's religious views are? Does it also depend upon how one specifically indoctrinates one's own child? Have you known anyone who in your opinion could be accused of religious child abuse?

1. No.

2. Certainly.

3. Yes.

4. I guess so. I mean, I've heard stories about extreme relgious indoctrination from some girls I dated, but pretty much I never believed them, because almost every woman on the Earth has a rape story, or a mom and dad were terrible to me story, and it just gets so old, because its nothing more than a starvation for sympathy and attention.

But I know its out there, definitely.

[LadyValkyrie37]

4. I guess so. I mean, I've heard stories about extreme relgious indoctrination from some girls I dated, but pretty much I never believed them, because almost every woman on the Earth has a rape story, or a mom and dad were terrible to me story, and it just gets so old, because its nothing more than a starvation for sympathy and attention.

To me that sounds a bit cold and heartless. Yes, everyone in this world has a story they could tell about their own harships. No one is exempt from hardships. However, to say that everyone who shares their stories is just telling them because they are starved for attention is a bit cold and heartless in my opinion. Every human being wishes on some level, to connect with another human being, preferably on a level in which they are both skilled and/or knowledgeable. So in sharing stories of hardships one may just be trying to find a connection within another human being is all. However, I have no doubt that there are indeed some out there who just say stuff to seek attention and to be in the spotlight.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

To me that sounds a bit cold and heartless. Yes, everyone in this world has a story they could tell about their own harships. No one is exempt from hardships. However, to say that everyone who shares their stories is just telling them because they are starved for attention is a bit cold and heartless in my opinion. Every human being wishes on some level, to connect with another human being, preferably on a level in which they are both skilled and/or knowledgeable. So in sharing stories of hardships one may just be trying to find a connection within another human being is all. However, I have no doubt that there are indeed some out there who just say stuff to seek attention and to be in the spotlight.

I just find that to be true, mostly.

I truly have dated maybe three women in my life, and Ive been with plenty, that haven't had a rape story, or who didnt come from a bad upbringing. ANd mostly, the more I was with them, I found their credibility to wane day by day.

I'ts like dudes....I talk to women, and so often they tell me about their ex's..."he shot someone, he killed people and feels terrible about it....he's a rough and tumble guy who just got mixed with the wrong bunch, but has a heart of gold underneath that hard, tough exterior."

Its the same. Wholesale, almost every one of those cocksuckers are liars. Almost all of them are pussies at heart, and will fold when shit hits the fan.

So Im not locking in on women, rather, just...the stories that come with so many people....but really, I was alluding to two gfs I had who claimed abuse by belts and shit from religious parents, but I think that was just so they didnt have to feel absurd wearing all their "look at me" gear.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

So in sharing stories of hardships one may just be trying to find a connection within another human being is all.

Furthermore, I find this very thing to be an incredible sign of weakness. Early on, anyway. If a woman opens up later, about something profound, or painful in her life, great. I'll give her the cozies and all the sorrys she needs, and do whatever. But early on in a relationship, when sympathy seems to be the driving force to get me close, this seems like a sickness to me. I cant stand it. Nothing will turn me quicker.

I get a hard-on for a strong woman, one who is resolute, one who doesnt buckle. Damn...hell yeah.

[Morbid]

I get a hard-on for a strong woman, one who is resolute, one who doesnt buckle. Damn...hell yeah.

Yeah. That is the shit. It was one of the main qualities I look for in a woman I do not plan on abandoning with a belly full of my spawn, but plan on settling down with for a few days.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Furthermore, I find this very thing to be an incredible sign of weakness. Early on, anyway. If a woman opens up later, about something profound, or painful in her life, great. I'll give her the cozies and all the sorrys she needs, and do whatever. But early on in a relationship, when sympathy seems to be the driving force to get me close, this seems like a sickness to me. I cant stand it. Nothing will turn me quicker.

I get a hard-on for a strong woman, one who is resolute, one who doesnt buckle. Damn...hell yeah.

To each their own, but we aren't really talking about what gives us hard ons or makes us cream our jeans. We are talking about religious child abuse.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Yeah. That is the shit. It was one of the main qualities I look for in a woman I do not plan on abandoning with a belly full of my spawn, but plan on settling down with for a few days.

Heh...theres lots of good pussy that can be had thats not long term, sure.

I made the mistake of settling down with some of that. Now I refuse to settle.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

To each their own, but we aren't really talking about what gives us hard ons or makes us cream our jeans. We are talking about religious child abuse.

No shit.

I was responding to your taking offense to that last paragraph. And I elaborated a little. It's ok, really. Your topic wont derail.

I think. :p

[LadyValkyrie37]

I get a hard-on for a strong woman, one who is resolute, one who doesnt buckle. Damn...hell yeah.

Oh btw, just because a woman shares their stories of hardships doesn't make them weak, in my opinion. Is the woman still standing strong in life even though she's been through many hardships? Or is she ready for the men in the white coats to take her away? And even if she is ready for the men in the white coats to take her away how is she "weak?" I don't see someone stronger than anyone else. Everyone has their breaking point. It just takes more than others to get them there. What I've been through might have broken your spirit and psyche a long time ago. What you've been through may very well have broken my spirit and psyche a long time ago. No one is stronger than anyone else... we are just different. And talking about one's hardships doesn't make one weak.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Heh...theres lots of good pussy that can be had thats not long term, sure.

I made the mistake of settling down with some of that. Now I refuse to settle.

Ugh! Continue to look at women as "good pussy" or "bad pussy" and you will end up lonley with the occassional roll in the sack with whatever "pussy" that will have you.

[Athena]

Oh btw, just because a woman shares their stories of hardships doesn't make them weak, in my opinion. Is the woman still standing strong in life even though she's been through many hardships? Or is she ready for the men in the white coats to take her away? And even if she is ready for the men in the white coats to take her away how is she "weak?" I don't see someone stronger than anyone else. Everyone has their breaking point. It just takes more than others to get them there. What I've been through might have broken your spirit and psyche a long time ago. What you've been through may very well have broken my spirit and psyche a long time ago. No one is stronger than anyone else... we are just different. And talking about one's hardships doesn't make one weak.

Some people are ABSOLUTELY stronger than others. There are those in the world to are replied upon and those who do the relying. It's often pretty clear to see who's who.

I wholeheartedly agree with Lieman. If a woman is playing the "woe is me" bit too early on in the game, it's more often than not a ploy for sympathy and attention; a gimmick designed to hook someone.


As for the thread topic, I believe that child abuse is child abuse is child abuse. Religious fanaticism may provoke some, certainly. Furthermore, some particular dogmas may employ particularly dangerous versions of baptism or exorcism. However, I don't think a religious household is any more prone to abuse than others, nor do I think religion-motivated abuse is any worse than standard abuse.

[Morbid]

Yeah, Lieman! You sexist pig! :p

[CPL CHUD]

I think the truly religious are the people that crash planes into towers and take everything written in their holy book or books literally. They burn left handed people. They subjegate science at every turn. These are the people that toss fire bombs into abortion clinics. These mother fuckers are the truly religious. The devote. So if we want to talk about religious indoctration being abusive I think the case is pretty clear cut unless we want to refer to the wannabes that subscribe to some watered down version of religion.

There's nothing more abusive than shutting off a mind before it had a chance to turn on.

[swivel]

There's nothing more abusive than shutting off a mind before it had a chance to turn on.

That is why I see all forms of superstitious indoctrination as a form of abuse. The idea that abuse has to be physical or emotional is outdated. Intellectual abuse is no less an offense, especially now that we live in a world that values intellect so dearly.

Abuse is meted out by those who are in a position of power or authority. When adults teach their kids about their religion, they are preying on the defenseless from a position of perceived ontological superiority. Kids will believe whatever shit you fill them with, and religion is supremely designed to go in with a barb. Nice in one direction, but painful as shit to pull out.

It should make everyone suspicious that parents don't wait until their children are old enough to grasp the concepts they are being fed.

[Becca]

Is the religious indoctrination of one's own children considered child abuse? Does it depend upon how extreme one's religious views are? Does it also depend upon how one specifically indoctrinates one's own child? Have you known anyone who in your opinion could be accused of religious child abuse?

Of course it depends on the extremity and how you do it. I don't think it's abuse to rationally inform children of what's out there and the various different religions that are prevalent in society. They have to know something about religion because even though a lot of people want to take it out of society, it is everywhere. Someone somewhere bitches every second about something related to God, Jesus, Buddha, the Mormons, the Jews, whatever. They will hear about it and wonder WTF all the hoopla is about. I would rather my children know something about all the options and let them form their own opinion.

To the bible thumpers, that is abuse by not telling them only about Christianity and God and how to get into Heaven. To some, I am a Christian. To some, I am a heathen. I am a weird mix of both, because of the religious abuse I suffered as a child that I know affected the way I view it. I was raised in a traditional Southern Baptist home by kind, loving, parents and we went to Sunday school and church on Sundays. Nothing wrong with that and they never forced me to believe anything specific or act a certain way (as pertains to religion). Their only mistake was having me in a "Christian" daycare and then a "Christian" school, where both my brother and I were severely abused by these fanatics. We are both scarred to this day because of it. When I reached an age where I could logically and truthfully tell my parents what was going on (7th grade) and they knew it was honesty and not just "I don't want to go to school" bullshit, they immediately removed both of us from that hellhole. They feel guilty to this day about how long we stayed there, but nothing can change it now. My parents after a long absence have found their way into church again, and good for them. Whenever I go home to visit them, I have no problem going to church with them or attending church functions. Just don't cram your shit and beliefs down my throat. I don't go to church on my own so again to some I am not a Christian.

But I do have faith. I believe in a higher power, I don't necessarily believe that higher power goes by the name of God or Jesus. I believe in right and wrong, treating people fairly, respecting your elders, do no harm kind of thinking. I can get scared or hurt and pray and ask for direction and comfort; I just don't think I have to sit in a building that calls itself a church and pay money to get that direction...anywhere I can commune with "God" is my church. These are the beliefs I will attempt to pass on to my children. Telling them they're going to hell if they don't "witness" to strangers, if they wear jeans or makeup, if they even say the word 'hell'..that's abuse to me because that's bullshit. Telling them what I think is cool about Christians, Jews, Islam, Mormons, Catholics and whatever else the hell I come up with isn't forcing them to believe a certain thing. It's educating them so they can find their own way while I sit back and watch and hope I did a good job.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Of course it depends on the extremity and how you do it. I don't think it's abuse to rationally inform children of what's out there and the various different religions that are prevalent in society. They have to know something about religion because even though a lot of people want to take it out of society, it is everywhere. Someone somewhere bitches every second about something related to God, Jesus, Buddha, the Mormons, the Jews, whatever. They will hear about it and wonder WTF all the hoopla is about. I would rather my children know something about all the options and let them form their own opinion.

To the bible thumpers, that is abuse by not telling them only about Christianity and God and how to get into Heaven. To some, I am a Christian. To some, I am a heathen. I am a weird mix of both, because of the religious abuse I suffered as a child that I know affected the way I view it. I was raised in a traditional Southern Baptist home by kind, loving, parents and we went to Sunday school and church on Sundays. Nothing wrong with that and they never forced me to believe anything specific or act a certain way (as pertains to religion). Their only mistake was having me in a "Christian" daycare and then a "Christian" school, where both my brother and I were severely abused by these fanatics. We are both scarred to this day because of it. When I reached an age where I could logically and truthfully tell my parents what was going on (7th grade) and they knew it was honesty and not just "I don't want to go to school" bullshit, they immediately removed both of us from that hellhole. They feel guilty to this day about how long we stayed there, but nothing can change it now. My parents after a long absence have found their way into church again, and good for them. Whenever I go home to visit them, I have no problem going to church with them or attending church functions. Just don't cram your shit and beliefs down my throat. I don't go to church on my own so again to some I am not a Christian.

But I do have faith. I believe in a higher power, I don't necessarily believe that higher power goes by the name of God or Jesus. I believe in right and wrong, treating people fairly, respecting your elders, do no harm kind of thinking. I can get scared or hurt and pray and ask for direction and comfort; I just don't think I have to sit in a building that calls itself a church and pay money to get that direction...anywhere I can commune with "God" is my church. These are the beliefs I will attempt to pass on to my children. Telling them they're going to hell if they don't "witness" to strangers, if they wear jeans or makeup, if they even say the word 'hell'..that's abuse to me because that's bullshit. Telling them what I think is cool about Christians, Jews, Islam, Mormons, Catholics and whatever else the hell I come up with isn't forcing them to believe a certain thing. It's educating them so they can find their own way while I sit back and watch and hope I did a good job.

Good post, babe.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Oh btw, just because a woman shares their stories of hardships doesn't make them weak, in my opinion.

Not that alone, no. But early in a relationship, if all I hear is about how tough life is to them, then yeah, I take that as "feel sorry for me." I normally find, the stronger women I talk to, have had very tough bouts in their lives, only, they don't have to broadcast them to anyone who will listen. Like you said....we all have our problems.

Is the woman still standing strong in life even though she's been through many hardships? Or is she ready for the men in the white coats to take her away?

Doll, I know too many pathetic people who are ready for the white coats....if you want my honest, true to God opinion....I think instead of spending the money for the pathetic bastards, it would be cheaper to just euthanize them. If theyre done, then we should be done with them. I know you think its cold, but actually, Im quite compassionate. I bust my ass for my friends, and people who need it, and I would help almost anyone, except for these weak, meek creatures who want everyone around them to pity them forever.

nd even if she is ready for the men in the white coats to take her away how is she "weak?" I don't see someone stronger than anyone else.

First of all, how are they weak? Because they need to be carted off. Secondly, there are clear strong types, and weak types. Sweetie, youre demonstrating a bit of the strong type right now just by disagreeing with me and pushing it. So you got some of the good stuff, but uh....you just arent quite strong enough for me. Imsorry to disappoint you though. ;)

Everyone has their breaking point. It just takes more than others to get them there.

Im not saying the strong dont have breaking points. Im saying they stay solid longer than others. They take longer to crack, longer to break. And when they do, they fix their shit. Christ, Ive broken before, pretty sure everyone here has. Ive been at my lows, had highs, whatever. But Im making it, quite frankly, because Im tougher inside than most motherfuckers on this earth. See babe...I never graduated the 10th grade in high school, but I can swing with most. I can fucking spell, and I can pick apart shitty grammar from piss ants who have taken tons of courses in college...I went to prison for a long time, but I have custody of two beautiful girls, who are smart, sweet and intelligent. (Well, the baby is smart for a baby. :o She's 4 months, and says GHA!) I'm self made. I own my own business, and take care of my shit. But I have broken down many, many times...but NEVER...gave up.

What I've been through might have broken your spirit and psyche a long time ago.

What you've been through may very well have broken my spirit and psyche a long time ago

Perhaps. Who knows? What someone goes through doesnt define strength though.

No one is stronger than anyone else... we are just different. And talking about one's hardships doesn't make one weak.

Certainly, many are stronger than others. I know this for a fact. There are born cowards out there in the world. Fuckers who will bend under pressure. Wilt when it gets hot. Cave when it gets to be too much. Eh...Im getting on a soap box, man.

But anyway....shit....going back to the chics thing....hey listen up. PM me. If you want to talk, Ill listen.....I want to hear the terrible things....I won't judge.

[LadyValkyrie37]

Not that alone, no. But early in a relationship, if all I hear is about how tough life is to them, then yeah, I take that as "feel sorry for me." I normally find, the stronger women I talk to, have had very tough bouts in their lives, only, they don't have to broadcast them to anyone who will listen. Like you said....we all have our problems.

Doll, I know too many pathetic people who are ready for the white coats....if you want my honest, true to God opinion....I think instead of spending the money for the pathetic bastards, it would be cheaper to just euthanize them. If theyre done, then we should be done with them. I know you think its cold, but actually, Im quite compassionate. I bust my ass for my friends, and people who need it, and I would help almost anyone, except for these weak, meek creatures who want everyone around them to pity them forever.

First of all, how are they weak? Because they need to be carted off. Secondly, there are clear strong types, and weak types. Sweetie, youre demonstrating a bit of the strong type right now just by disagreeing with me and pushing it. So you got some of the good stuff, but uh....you just arent quite strong enough for me. Imsorry to disappoint you though. ;)

Im not saying the strong dont have breaking points. Im saying they stay solid longer than others. They take longer to crack, longer to break. And when they do, they fix their shit. Christ, Ive broken before, pretty sure everyone here has. Ive been at my lows, had highs, whatever. But Im making it, quite frankly, because Im tougher inside than most motherfuckers on this earth. See babe...I never graduated the 10th grade in high school, but I can swing with most. I can fucking spell, and I can pick apart shitty grammar from piss ants who have taken tons of courses in college...I went to prison for a long time, but I have custody of two beautiful girls, who are smart, sweet and intelligent. (Well, the baby is smart for a baby. :o She's 4 months, and says GHA!) I'm self made. I own my own business, and take care of my shit. But I have broken down many, many times...but NEVER...gave up.

Perhaps. Who knows? What someone goes through doesnt define strength though.

Certainly, many are stronger than others. I know this for a fact. There are born cowards out there in the world. Fuckers who will bend under pressure. Wilt when it gets hot. Cave when it gets to be too much. Eh...Im getting on a soap box, man.

But anyway....shit....going back to the chics thing....hey listen up. PM me. If you want to talk, Ill listen.....I want to hear the terrible things....I won't judge.

Please don't call me "doll," "sweetie," or "babe." To me it's patronizing and a bit chauvinistic. Call me Lady Valkyrie, Lady Val, Lady V, or just plain Valkyrie. Also, do not think for a moment that you could handle me. It takes a special man to handle all of this and it is not a chauvinist little boy such as yourself. So don't be too disappointed when I say, the thought of you and me never crossed my mind. *shivers* UGH! :p

I still don't know how romantic relationships have to do with religious child abuse and this thread. But seeing as you continue to push the issue I'll discuss it. I admit that in the beginning of a romantic relationship if someone is constantly talking about their hardships, sure it would be down right annoying. However, personally, I'm not going to shut a person down right away just because they feel comfortable enough to share such issues with me. In fact I would feel good that they trust me enough with such issues, even if it is soon in the relationship. But if they made it a constant habit to constantly dwell on their hardships, in the beginging of the relationship, without ever seeing the good in their life, then yes that would annoy me.

So you believe we should euthanize anyone who has such severe mental health issues that they need hospitalization? Do you really believe that or is that just a statement that you just pulled out of your ass? What if that mentally ill patient is a person under the age of 18? Do we euthanize children just because they have mental health issues? What if that person is a woman who is pregnant? Do we kill her unborn child just to get rid of the mentally ill patient? I guess that depends upon one's viewpoint of what a fetus really is... is it a child or is it just a piece of tissue that has not yet become a human yet?

You and I have one thing in common, we are both high school dropouts. I dropped out in my junior year when I got pregnant with my first child. I got married to the children's father, too, when I dropped out. I later received my G.E.D. in the summer of 1998. I've been though two abusive and failed marriages, pulled myself out of a life of drugs and alcohol, and all the while my children have been my inspiration to be a better person than I was yesterday.

I think both you and I are strong individuals... as well as stubborn and hard headed individuals. lol

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Please don't call me "doll," "sweetie," or "babe." To me it's patronizing and a bit chauvinistic. Call me Lady Valkyrie, Lady Val, Lady V, or just plain Valkyrie. Also, do not think for a moment that you could handle me. It takes a special man to handle all of this and it is not a chauvinist little boy such as yourself. So don't be too disappointed when I say, the thought of you and me never crossed my mind. *shivers* UGH! :p

Yes ma'am. Er---Lady V. And as for me handling you? Heh...are you fucking KIDDING me? Bab---Lady, I got you. Ok? I got you. ;) Little boy...listen atcha. You like me already, I can tell.

I still don't know how romantic relationships have to do with religious child abuse and this thread

.

It doesn't. Im just pushing it, really. Just using it as my experiences. Certainly not as any concrete evidence, obviously, rather....just...yeah, I guess being an asshole. You got me.

But seeing as you continue to push the issue I'll discuss it. I admit that in the beginning of a romantic relationship if someone is constantly talking about their hardships, sure it would be down right annoying. However, personally, I'm not going to shut a person down right away just because they feel comfortable enough to share such issues with me. In fact I would feel good that they trust me enough with such issues, even if it is soon in the relationship. But if they made it a constant habit to constantly dwell on their hardships, in the beginging of the relationship, without ever seeing the good in their life, then yes that would annoy me.

Let me be clear, that that's what Im talking about....and this all came from the fact that two gfs had claimed to be abused by religious zealots as parents. I brought all that personal shit in as an independent jab. I shouldnt have, sure.

So you believe we should euthanize anyone who has such severe mental health issues that they need hospitalization?

No no, babe. The ones who just give up on life. Ones who become terrible parents because they dont give a fuck about anything in life, the ones who just roll over in life...the ones who have the tools, but wont use them. Fuck them. I know lots of people like that, and they make shit difficult for everyone, and ruin motherfuckers' lives even. I sincerely wish they'd die is all. Just spare the bullshit, ya know? Mental illness is a different thing. I've been involved with donations there, and I would help in any way I could....I think it's up to us to help them, and make sure they can make the most out of what they have, and maximize their life experience.

Do you really believe that or is that just a statement that you just pulled out of your ass? What if that mentally ill patient is a person under the age of 18? Do we euthanize children just because they have mental health issues? What if that person is a woman who is pregnant? Do we kill her unborn child just to get rid of the mentally ill patient

Answered this above.

I guess that depends upon one's viewpoint of what a fetus really is... is it a child or is it just a piece of tissue that has not yet become a human yet?

Personally, as soon as it has a heart, it becomes alive. Anything beyond that, is murder.

You and I have one thing in common, we are both high school dropouts.

Actually, I was kicked out. Went to optional, was kicked out there.

I dropped out in my junior year when I got pregnant with my first child. I got married to the children's father, too, when I dropped out. I later received my G.E.D. in the summer of 1998. I've been though two abusive and failed marriages, pulled myself out of a life of drugs and alcohol, and all the while my children have been my inspiration to be a better person than I was yesterday.

See there...youre one touch chick afterall. You'd LOVE me if ya knew me. I'm really a sweet guy underneath all this hard exterior, with a heart of gold.

I think both you and I are strong individuals... as well as stubborn and hard headed individuals. lol

Oh you got that right....btw....Valkyrie, huh? You uh, DO know Im like, 100% norwegian, for real....heh.....

[VisualKei]

I'm a Christian Pagan Witch

Um... as a Pagan... I must point out... that the word "Pagan" and "Christian" shouldn't be used like that, You are either one, or the other... there really is no in between, combining those to words to insinuate that it is one religion... well that's like insisting an apple is in fact an orange... when it is indeed still an apple...