Judge bans song from school assembly due to religious theme.

[SoUncool]

http://www.jacksonville.com/news/met...hools_assembly

A federal judge Wednesday ordered a St. Johns County elementary school to not have students rehearse a religious-themed song once scheduled for a year-end assembly.

The preliminary injunction against rehearsing country group Diamond Rio's "In God We Still Trust" says the lyrics "take aim at one [of] our nation's fundamental principles: the separation of church and state."

U.S. District Judge Harvey Schlesinger concluded that "the public interest is well served in preventing the coercion of third-grade students to participate in a state sponsored performance that endorses such an opinion."

Parents of two children at Webster School in St. Augustine sued in March, saying that rehearsal led by a teacher during class made their children feel ostracized because their families don't share the beliefs in the song. The students aren't named in the suit.

The school's principal has taken the song out of the assembly schedule. But school district lawyers argued in court papers there should be no injunction because "school sponsored religious songs are not de facto violations of the First Amendment," which forbids government showing preference for any religion.

Schlesinger wrote that he knew the lawsuit had spurred public debate. He added that if he didn't issue the injunction, pressure from people who wanted the song performed might cause the school district to reverse course and put it back in the assembly, scheduled for the end of this month.

While saying courts agree some religious songs can have a place in schools - for example, choir classes can use traditional church songs - Schlesinger said this case was different.

The Diamond Rio song, the judge wrote, is "a patently religious and proselyting piece" that crosses a line by advocating a specific religious view.

The ruling referenced parts of the song's lyrics that say: "There's no separation. ... We're one nation under Him ... Now there are those among us who want to push Him out and erase His name from everything this country is all about ... Now it's time for all believers to make our voices heard."

[penelopejo]

I wish i could erase them.......then maybe they'd stop trying to shove their religion down my throat....and that goes for all religion that tries that with me.

But I can see why the song is banned. It is somewhat...startling to hear that if you don't believe in Him, you are being accused of pushing Him out and erasing Him from this country when this country is a melting pot.

[El Supremo]

When I was in grammar school, I definitely remember singing shit in Chorus and music class like "Let My People Go" and other music with religious content. I don't recall any parents, including my own, who are firmly non-religious, freaking out about any of it.

Perhaps the nature of this song is a bit more touchy of a subject though. If it does indeed criticize the separation of church and state, and it's being sung by a bunch of 3rd graders in a public school, that strikes me as a little-- no, a lot-- creepy and undermining. Not to mention ironic.

It is no secret that fundamentalist Christian groups are pushing a political agenda for power and indoctrination, especially as it concerns children. Watch 10 minutes of "Jesus Camp" or "Hell House" and you'll see what I mean.

The separation clause argument is never going to end as long as we place so much importance on organized religion. My main problem with this is religion AS a cultural/family meme, rather than a spiritual conclusion that an individual human being arrives at on their own, and in their own time.

If you're born Catholic and baptized Catholic, your indoctrination begins at birth. Honestly, how likely is it that you're going to change your views later on? I think religious upbringing should be put on hold for all kids until they're like 5 or 6 years old and can start forming their own vague ideas about what they believe and don't believe. But that's just me.

[penelopejo]

If you're born Catholic and baptized Catholic, your indoctrination begins at birth. Honestly, how likely is it that you're going to change your views later on? I think religious upbringing should be put on hold for all kids until they're like 5 or 6 years old and can start forming their own vague ideas about what they believe and don't believe. But that's just me.

You know, the Father that baptized me when I was 16 said the same thing. Even he said he doesn't understand why parents do so when they are so young. He even told me he wished that most children waited until they were older so that the could understand the religion than it be indoctrinated from birth to where you see no other religion.

He was a very smart Father, and that is the reason why I no longer attend church. He is no longer the Father there. It seems he went on to do missionary work. And I miss his words greatly.

[MadmamainNC]

This sort of reminds me of JW kids in school who feel ostracized during Christmas time, or Valentines and other Holidays that are celebrated by school students inside the classroom.
JW's are the first to separate church from state and don't believe in any form of government, do not vote, won't serve in the military, or say the pledge of allegiance. Because it's not Jehovah (God).
YET, they're the first religion to try and shove their beliefs down others throats and attempt to violate the sanctuary of ones own home.

Real curious if the parents and kids are JW's or just parents who don't want religion mixed with schooling. Reason I am thinking it's JW's is because the kids felt ostracized and it went against their beliefs.

Children of parents who argue the politics of religion and state normally don't make a stink or would feel isolated. Especially 3rd graders since they are in their own little world and void of mom and dads political stances.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I have no objection to the song. I just don't feel it's appropriate for school.

If they had been singing "All Praise Satan" it would have never had to go to court.

[seductress]

You know, the Father that baptized me when I was 16 said the same thing. Even he said he doesn't understand why parents do so when they are so young. He even told me he wished that most children waited until they were older so that the could understand the religion than it be indoctrinated from birth to where you see no other religion.

He was a very smart Father, and that is the reason why I no longer attend church. He is no longer the Father there. It seems he went on to do missionary work. And I miss his words greatly.

two of my children were baptized before their 1st birthday. My oldest was not looking like he was going to make it to 1 week old, my youngest was baptized because it is my choice. My children start catechism in 7th grade in 8th, the are confirmed. By 8th grade, I feel they can make their own choice. I feel it is important to teach them what I believe at a young age and if they choose another path later, so be it. They have that choice and I will never condemn them for making it.

As far as the song, I do understand why they would choose to take it out of school, but really did those kids feel isolated or was it the parents telling them to feel this way?

[El Supremo]

As far as the song, I do understand why they would choose to take it out of school, but really did those kids feel isolated or was it the parents telling them to feel this way?

True story:

I was born and baptized/confirmed Syriac Orthodox (in that religion, you're confirmed when you're baptized).

My parents took me to church, and then started me in Sunday School for a few weeks when I was 5 or 6. I think they were just unsure of the "right" thing to do as far as my religious upbringing, better safe than sorry kind of thing. My mom wasa lapsed Catholic, my dad a lapsed Orthodox. My parents were politely asked to not bring me to Sunday School anymore by one of the teachers, because I "asked too many questions".

Years later, my parents sent me to a summer camp that I am absolutely sure they had not researched well enough. It turned out to be a crazy Christian camp, like Ned Flanders style. By this time, my religious education had long ceased, and my parents had both decided that if I ever decided to follow one church, I would decide for myself when I was ready.

You can damn well believe I felt "isolated", sitting in Chapel every morning at camp, surrounded by 200 fundamentalists, not knowing the words of any of their wacky hymns or campfire songs about Jesus putting "gas in my Ford to keep me truckin' for the Lord".

I imagine these kids felt much the same in a public school setting, as opposed to a privately-run camp where all the Christians are there with full knowledge of the religious atmosphere.

[seductress]

there are differences there. You were surrounded by people that already knew this stuff, these kids were all probably learning this song. I highly doubt that the school was really trying to push religious beliefs onto anyone, they probably just liked the song and decided it would be nice to sing it.

But as I said, I can see why it was taken out of the program. I would not have been fighting to keep it in.

[El Supremo]

there are differences there. You were surrounded by people that already knew this stuff, these kids were all probably learning this song. I highly doubt that the school was really trying to push religious beliefs onto anyone, they probably just liked the song and decided it would be nice to sing it.

But as I said, I can see why it was taken out of the program. I would not have been fighting to keep it in.

Of course there are differences... the situations were (or should have been) complete opposites.

All I was trying to say is that from my own perspective, I'd feel isolated too if I was in a public school setting, being taught a song with clearly visible fundamentalist themes, and I did not share those beliefs, whether it was because I was a Jehova's Witness, atheist, Hindu, or Satan worshipper. It's public school, the activities and viewpoints expressed should not favor any one group or set of beliefs. That's all I'm saying.

[MadmamainNC]

LOL @ song El.

I was born and raised Catholic but always felt that it was a farce. Things didn't make sense to me such as the Pope and why only boys at the time could be alter boys. In my Adulthood I realized how many Catholic traditions mirror pagan rituals and found an answer to many of my questions which helped me break free without guilt.

Anyway, I married an ex-Witness who's family was practicing Witnesses. Since he never was dis-fellowshipped (ex-communicated), I was privy to the constant bombardment of brainwashing from his family trying to get him back in the fold and even from him over the years. I fought that with every fiber of my being. At some point when our kids were little, we made an agreement there would be no religion in our home. Agree to disagree thing but the kids were allowed to go to church with their friends etc if they chose to and we had bibles in the house. Of course mine was filled with pages of highlighted text from me still constantly proving his doctrine to be ludicrous.

One of his biggest issues in being raised a JW was school and being isolated from kids and the "norm". He would tell me how fucked up that was growing up that way and would participate on the sly in classroom functions such as Christmas cards and Valentines.

Now, since we've divorced he's remarried and has a new family with young step-children and has completely indoctrinated them into this religion. After our divorce he went back to being a JW.
These kids are like robots. Creepy. And when he gets together with our own kids and my granddaughter, they try to indoctrinate them. No free thinking. All brainwash. One thing I can always count on, my kids are half me. I don't worry.

I am so glad I fought for my kids. One goes to our local Baptist church now and again, one is more Buddhist than anything else and one believes there is more to why we are here and has educated himself extensively in theology and is now agnostic.
I raised them to respect all religious beliefs because when it boils down, it's the same thing whether your a believer or not. Good and Evil. Right and Wrong. Doing good by oneself. That's what matters most.

Religion and state should not mix because it protects us when fundamentalist religions just may take hold of this country. The simplest solution to solving a more serious problem that may arise down the road.
Stick to the Constitution.

[El Supremo]

I am so glad I fought for my kids. One goes to our local Baptist church now and again, one is more Buddhist than anything else and one believes there is more to why we are here and has educated himself extensively in theology and is now agnostic.
I raised them to respect all religious beliefs because when it boils down, it's the same thing whether your a believer or not. Good and Evil. Right and Wrong. Doing good by oneself. That's what matters most.

Religion and state should not mix because it protects us when fundamentalist religions just may take hold of this country. The simplest solution to solving a more serious problem that may arise down the road.
Stick to the Constitution.

I agree with everything you say here, Madmama. I am so glad to know that you are raising your kids to be open minded and think for themselves.

In the case of the original article here, I would say that the situation raises a lot of questions, but ultimately, the judge made the right decision by erring on the side of caution, and on the side of the Constitution.

[Athena]

If you're born Catholic and baptized Catholic, your indoctrination begins at birth. Honestly, how likely is it that you're going to change your views later on? I think religious upbringing should be put on hold for all kids until they're like 5 or 6 years old and can start forming their own vague ideas about what they believe and don't believe. But that's just me.

I'm with you, there. That said, I was born and baptised Catholic.

[seductress]

I was born and raised Catholic and converted. My oldest was baptized catholic and is able to make his own choice of religion or for that matter no religion. He has not gone through Catechism because he started and chose to quite and I allowed him to quite. My 12 year old is going next year and we have discussed this numerous times, it is his choice if he says no, so far he wants to be confirmed.

It is their choice, they are not forced into church now, yet 3 of them tell me every week that they want to go with me to church. They are not rewarded for going, they do not go to Sunday school, just church.

I hope I am raising children that can make choices for themselves

[Peeperann]

Honestly, I don't see the problem. If you don't want your kids singing it, and don't want to hear it, don't go. Or just don't let them sing that particular song.

It's just ridiculous to actually get a judge involved and waste tax payer money on something like this.

[Eagles Mom]

two of my children were baptized before their 1st birthday. My oldest was not looking like he was going to make it to 1 week old, my youngest was baptized because it is my choice. My children start catechism in 7th grade in 8th, the are confirmed. By 8th grade, I feel they can make their own choice. I feel it is important to teach them what I believe at a young age and if they choose another path later, so be it. They have that choice and I will never condemn them for making it.

As far as the song, I do understand why they would choose to take it out of school, but really did those kids feel isolated or was it the parents telling them to feel this way?

Bolding is mine.

Seductress, let me preface this by saying this is an honest question, not a smartass remark ok?

Explain to me the difference between you feeling it's important to teach your kids at a young age what you believe and the other parents telling their kids how to feel or what to believe?

Maybe I'm confused but they both seem to me to be the parents projecting their ideas and or beliefs onto the child. Before the guns come out, I'm not saying that's right or wrong (I'll post that later lol) I seriously just don't get the difference.

[Pete Bondurant]

i worship a rabid baboon named horace, and horace is an angry vengeful deity who punishes the innocent for no reason

[penelopejo]

i worship a rabid baboon named horace, and horace is an angry vengeful deity who punishes the innocent for no reason

OMG PETE!!! I so wanna join your religion now....

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Honestly, I don't see the problem. If you don't want your kids singing it, and don't want to hear it, don't go. Or just don't let them sing that particular song.

It's just ridiculous to actually get a judge involved and waste tax payer money on something like this.

So if the principal practices satanic beliefs, I assume you have no problem with the selection of "Oh Hail Satan" being taught?

[SoUncool]

This is merely my own opinion...

I do not believe there should be any religion in schools PERIOD. Or political influence. It is fine to TEACH about the political process but teachers should NOT be telling the kids one candidate is a horrible person; nor should the teachers be telling the kids they are going to hell if they haven't accepted Jesus as their savior. BOTH of these have happened in my kid's classrooms since she was in kindergarten. She is in public school here in the state of Florida.

We live in a small county just outside of Tallahassee. THIS type of stuff would never, ever happen in Tallahassee. I witnessed the first of many instances shortly after moving here from Tallahassee. At the local elementary school Christmas performance, which was filled with Jesus and G-d, I nearly fell out. I whispered to my friend, "What in the hell is this? How can they put on a religious program at a public school???" Know what he told me? "Uh, I suggest you keep your mouth shut." Yep, keep my mouth shut.

They did away with the "Fall Hall Walk" (kids got to wear their Halloween costumes and they all walked the halls like a parade) because a parent called and said that Halloween is a PAGAN holiday. No more witches or bats on the cupcakes, no more costumes or Halloween candy allowed. Only fall leaves and pumpkins (no Jack-O-Lanterns) were acceptable.

Last year, as I was dropping off my daughter for middle school, low and behold, right there at the drop off circle, surrounding the flagpole, was a PRAYER CIRCLE. This prayer circle was ON campus hosted by a church. I was livid. I guess some other parents were too as I never saw another one.

I could go on, but I won't. It's just more of the same. (Let's just say they don't like Obama either.) I have kept my mouth shut long enough - but I'm not afraid to take a stand if necessary as long as my daughter is comfortable with it.

I think kids should NOT be exposed to religion at all until they are old enough to make their own decisions. I was raised Southern Baptist and I despise them to this day. Her daddio is Catholic and drags her to mass when she visits him. She hates it. I've told her that I will let her make her own decision and she really appreciates the fact that I trust her to do that when she is ready.

You can probably see which way she is leaning, at almost 13 years old, as she made this wonderful picture on her own. I'm so proud.

[SoUncool]

I have no objection to the song. I just don't feel it's appropriate for school.

If they had been singing "All Praise Satan" it would have never had to go to court.

Slap me silly if this is not "tongue in cheek" because that's the way I'm reading it...?

[Morticia]

who the hell is horace?

By the way I am also feeling like the theme from the Jeffersons should be outlawed??? anyone? anyone?

We're moving on up?? to the east side. I am deeply offended. there is absolutely nothing wrong with the west side.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Slap me silly if this is not "tongue in cheek" because that's the way I'm reading it...?

It would never go to court because it would never be allowed. All holy hell would break loose and bible bangers would run rampant in the halls.

[LDhummingbird]

Real curious if the parents and kids are JW's or just parents who don't want religion mixed with schooling. Reason I am thinking it's JW's is because the kids felt ostracized and it went against their beliefs.

This whole time I've been reading this, I've been thinking of Seventh-Day Adventists. I get you.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

JW's are the first to separate church from state and don't believe in any form of government, do not vote, won't serve in the military, or say the pledge of allegiance. Because it's not Jehovah (God).
...
Real curious if the parents and kids are JW's or just parents who don't want religion mixed with schooling. Reason I am thinking it's JW's is because the kids felt ostracized and it went against their beliefs.

It would just seem fortuitous that their belief in separation of church and state coincides with the Constitution. Where they can not use the religious argument in court, they can use the Constitution. Lucky them.

If I was a parent there and wanted to create a ruckus, I would take it to court. But I used things like this to talk to and teach my children. The world will never conform to them and they need not conform to it. But we do all have to live together. Sometimes I went to battle with the school, others not... this would not be one I would.

[LDhummingbird]

Honestly, I don't see the problem. If you don't want your kids singing it, and don't want to hear it, don't go. Or just don't let them sing that particular song.

It's just ridiculous to actually get a judge involved and waste tax payer money on something like this.

Ms. Peep, didn't you just say elsewhere that you have a gay son? I don't wish to offend. Really. I'm not just being a bitch. But I can only look at things through the lens of my own experience, where all the people at your school are the same people at your church, and the grocery store, and you're all distant cousins anyway, and all seven hundred of you are well away from any other place anyone's ever heard of. Sometimes, a person or family who's very different from all of that ends up in one of those small, close-knit situations. If it's the only school in the county, how are you going to not put your kids there?

[Akelda]

Honestly, I don't see the problem. If you don't want your kids singing it, and don't want to hear it, don't go. Or just don't let them sing that particular song.

It's just ridiculous to actually get a judge involved and waste tax payer money on something like this.

I agree with some of that to a point. When I was in high school I did not participate in xmas or any other "religious" activities, and I was never made to feel like it was expected of me by teachers or peers. I used to jokingly say "how dare they put that pagan tree up in the lobby, that goes against my religion" I really didn't think they would actually make it illegal someday! lol I would stand for the pledge of allegiance but never speak it. But that was mainly because I wanted to be British and wore a Union Jack button in quiet defiance. I just didn't feel like that, or the xmas tree was insulting or damaging to me in any way. I can see why parents of elementary age kids would have some issues with things like that. I don't know, I'm definitely not saying that I think anyone is wrong in their opinions, I just wanted to share a little of how I dealt with it,...then again, that was 20 years ago, and things have changed A LOT. I don't believe in evolution either, but I wanted to pass the class, so fuck it, I gave them what they wanted on the test, and graduated, and went on with my life. Like I said, maybe it is more of an issue with younger kids, (i don't have any kids so excuse my ignorance on that) but it did make a difference for me, being able to hear different sides out and find my own beliefs (or lack thereof). And my parents helped there also by not shielding me from every little bit of crap. There are many forms of religion and sooner or later people generally come into contact with some they don't like. But it just seems like society in general is trying to make it where nobody ever has to see, hear or read anything they find offensive. Life isn't like that. It just seems like a little common sense might be in order. If you don't believe in xmas or halloween,..try and talk your child and let them know that in life they are going to encounter different people and cultures and they're not going to like some of them and vice/versa. Hell I don't know, I just wanted to share a little of my experiences. Oh, and when I was in 3rd grade they used to pass out little copies of the New Testament. and nobody ever said a word, If they didn't want it, it got trashed and that was the end of it. And I don't have the first scar from it. "I used things like this to talk to and teach my children. The world will never conform to them and they need not conform to it. But we do all have to live together." (thanks DV for that part)

[Athena]

I agree with some of that to a point. When I was in high school I did not participate in xmas or any other "religious" activities, and I was never made to feel like it was expected of me by teachers or peers. I used to jokingly say "how dare they put that pagan tree up in the lobby, that goes against my religion" I really didn't think they would actually make it illegal someday! lol I would stand for the pledge of allegiance but never speak it. But that was mainly because I wanted to be British and wore a Union Jack button in quiet defiance. I just didn't feel like that, or the xmas tree was insulting or damaging to me in any way. I can see why parents of elementary age kids would have some issues with things like that.

I feel very much the same way when it comes to religious holidays, but, I think there's a very big difference between those holidays, specifically engineered to be attractive and inclusive, and this song, which directly attacks the very merit of secularism and non-belief. That's not cool.

With holidays, it's very easy for atheists like myself to appreciate and even celebrate them. As you alluded to, most of these holidays are hijacked Pegan holidays, which, in my eyes, compromises their legitimacy to begin with. Secondly, their religious importance has become secondary to their commercial, materialistic importance. It's entirely possible for me to view these holidays in terms of gifts and candy and decorations and parties, completely discounting the religious significance.

How can I do that with this song? I can't. This song aims to literally undermine my belief system (or lack thereof). It is a defiant vilification of non-belief... driven by the very faction of society claiming to be under attack itself. I don't insist that anyone cease to believe in whatever they believe in, but I will NOT tolerate the state-sponsored denigration of my religious views.

This should be no more acceptable than if a third grade song took aim at Muslims or Buddhism.

[Peeperann]

So if the principal practices satanic beliefs, I assume you have no problem with the selection of "Oh Hail Satan" being taught?

Yes Dakota, I would, I wouldn't go and would not let my child go. But I really wouldn't take it to a judge and waste taxpayer money on it. It really is so simple.

And if it was actually be 'taught' my children wouldn't go to that school.

[petrina]

i worship a rabid baboon named horace, and horace is an angry vengeful deity who punishes the innocent for no reason

that explains alot