Actually, I *don't* have to respect their culture.

[Athena]

Boy, do I feel lucky for being born in a civilized society.

MULTAN, Pakistan – A Pakistani gang-rape victim who shunned custom and rose to global fame by speaking out about her case has defied another local taboo — she just got married.

Mukhtar Mai is now the second wife of Nasir Abbas Gabol, a police officer who was assigned to protect her as her case gained notoriety. He said she was reluctant to accept his offer and that he threatened suicide when she turned him down.

Mai was gang raped at the order of a tribal council in the eastern province of Punjab in 2002 to punish her family for her brother's alleged affair with a woman from a higher-caste family. There were also allegations that the boy had been molested by members of the other family, and that the accusations of the affair were used to cover up the crime.

Her new husband told the AP on Wednesday that he was enraptured by Mai's "extreme courage."

"I will do whatever is possible to help my wife in her efforts aimed at raising her voice for the rights of women," he said.

Mai initially refused his offer because Gabol was already married and discouraged him from divorcing his first wife. Pakistan is a majority Muslim nation, and Islamic law allows men to have up to four wives.

Gabol said he was so desperate to marry Mai that he threatened to kill himself unless she relented. Fearing he would carry out his threat, Gabol's first wife met with Mai and persuaded her to marry.

The wedding took place Sunday and a reception is planned for the weekend.

Full Article

I have no interest in living anywhere where your happy ending involves getting married to a man, who threatened to kill himself if you didn't, at the pleas of his other wife. But, hey... Given what she's already been through... Congrats?

For that matter, I have no interest in living anywhere local "officials" can order me gang-raped due to my brother's indiscretions.

[brokenandtwisted]

For that matter, I have no interest in living anywhere local "officials" can order me gang-raped due to my brother's indiscretions.

You mean you aren't that barbaric in America?

And here I thought you were all savages. I mean, your financial sector supports this belief of savagery...

[chatdenuit]

If she hadn't really wanted to marry him, she could have let him off himself. Personally, I think she could have done better, but that's just because I think suicide threats are an unbecoming way to propose an engagement. What the hell do I know anyway?!
And just to play devil's advocate a little, how sure are we that this kind of thing never happens here?

[Peeperann]

Mai was gang raped at the order of a tribal council in the eastern province of Punjab in 2002 to punish her family for her brother's alleged affair with a woman from a higher-caste family. There were also allegations that the boy had been molested by members of the other family, and that the accusations of the affair were used to cover up the crime.

Damn, I know it happens in those cultures, but I have NO respect for a culture that gangs rapes a woman for something her brother did!! That's just evil and disgusting. It is not going to make the men in the families stop what they are doing, it's just government sanctioned rape.

Jesus, I cannot imagine living any place else, I would have been raped and murdered long ago.

Good for her though for having the strength to be so open about this. The marriage? No, I would have let him off himself. Maybe she fell in love, who knows.

[Athena]

If she hadn't really wanted to marry him, she could have let him off himself. Personally, I think she could have done better, but that's just because I think suicide threats are an unbecoming way to propose an engagement. What the hell do I know anyway?!
And just to play devil's advocate a little, how sure are we that this kind of thing never happens here?

Oh, I'm not saying it never happens here - I suppose the difference, in my mind, is that it's not viewed as normal or acceptable, here.

I mean, we're talking about a place with a caste system and tribal leaders who are practically autonomous, using a particularly twisted interpretation of Islamic law to degrade women and generally oppress citizens. Yikes.

[Harley_Tech]

Mai was gang raped at the order of a tribal council in the eastern province of Punjab in 2002 to punish her family for her brother's alleged affair with a woman from a higher-caste family. There were also allegations that the boy had been molested by members of the other family, and that the accusations of the affair were used to cover up the crime.

Man, that Jeff Probst and Mark Burnett are some powerful SOBs. Those damn reality shows are brutal!
Remind me to never apply for a slot on Survivor.

R

[chatdenuit]

Excellent point, Athena. And I think you hit the nail right on the head when you said that it's a twisted version of Islam that they're using. It's good to be reminded that this isn't mainstream Islam, although it may affect moderate Muslims. It's always a shame when a good idea gets into the hands of wicked people who do bad things in its name, and that's true of all religions and beliefs.

[Harley_Tech]

I mean, we're talking about a place with a caste system and tribal leaders who are practically autonomous, using a particularly twisted interpretation of Islamic law to degrade women and generally oppress citizens. Yikes.

I think you could say that all around the world, someone, someplace is using a twisted interpretation of just about any religion to degrade woman and generally oppress citizens. IMO

R

[chatdenuit]

I think you could say that all around the world, someone, someplace is using a twisted interpretation of just about any religion to degrade woman and generally oppress citizens.

Agreed.

[Silvahalo]

I don't respect any culture that perceives women as the lesser sex and implements laws to openly display that belief. The idea that tribal leaders ordered her rape, repulses me. I see this woman as a hero to stand up to the injustice done to her...very, very brave. I can't imagine how hard it was to overcome her initial fear and push along to voice her outrage.

Rape victims in Pakistan face severe social stigma and diminished marriage prospects, prompting many to commit suicide. But Mai went public and challenged her alleged attackers in court, attracting international attention and becoming a women's rights activist.

"I will do whatever is possible to help my wife in her efforts aimed at raising her voice for the rights of women," he said.

I found what he said admirable. The suicide threat I think is more of a cultural thing, really ridiculous to use in getting ones point across. Still, he makes a good example for men that he even considered marriage to a woman who has been raped, that's progress too.

[chatdenuit]

Silva,
You've made some really good points. Culture is not a static force; it's dynamic. What is good to see in this story are the things you pointed out - she challenged her attackers in court, even if it meant further social stigma AND a man, well-aware of her situation, decided she's still worthy to marry. That is progress. The future of a culture open to such progress is promising. One can only hope that this kind of thinking will bring an end to the way the tribal council asserts its rule.

[Athena]

I think you could say that all around the world, someone, someplace is using a twisted interpretation of just about any religion to degrade woman and generally oppress citizens. IMO

R

Indeed. The cults found right here in America are a fine example. Where it gets sketchy, in my opinion, is when these crooked ideologies get worked into government, like we see in many Middle Eastern societies. Secularism is a fundamental part of freedom, although, certainly not the ONLY component.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Her next feat will be to defy custom by divorcing him and running off with his ex-wife. He will hunt her down and throw acid at them. They will further defy custom by forgiving him and embracing him in a polygamous marriage. Maybe Al Jazeera will do a made-for-TV movie about it for Western television.

Just thought I would add to the asinine of the whole situation. Not that it needed it.

[swivel]

Further proof that America doesn't suck as bad as our non-traveling friends would have us believe.

[CPL CHUD]

My favorite culture is my own.

[HijabiGirl]

Actually according to shariah law the men who raped her and the tribal chiefs that ordered it should be stoned to death. The punishment for rape in Islam is stoning of the perp(s). There is no caste system in Islam, that is a Hindu belief system. Islam actually is anti-caste and it is not legitimate.

I agree with you whole heartedly Athena, no one should respect a culture that practices this disgusting act. This is backwards village behavior and it would behoove the Muslim community to excise these types of cultural throwbacks from their fold. But since the educated people of Pakistan (usually in the cities as opposed to the dirt villages where this happened) don't speak out it is as if they agree with it.

A woman who has been raped is considered a victim. Islam does not say any differently. But these stupid people bring their cultural beliefs and make that their religion. If I had any say-so I would tell them to kill the judges and the men who participated in th rape....or at leash lash the judges and kill the rapists. Politically correct? NO, but I bet it would cut back on this nasty practice.

[evervigilant]

Her brother was only 12 at the time , the girl involved was older than him and from a high caste family . They raped him for being involved with their female relative , then his father was ordered to bring his daughter to the council where she was gang raped . Her rape brought shame on the family , but boys are raped all the time with no shame and no outcry .

[swivel]

Actually according to shariah law the men who raped her and the tribal chiefs that ordered it should be stoned to death. The punishment for rape in Islam is stoning of the perp(s). There is no caste system in Islam, that is a Hindu belief system. Islam actually is anti-caste and it is not legitimate.

Check your facts again.

It isn't rape if the men consent.

[Castille]

Her brother was only 12 at the time , the girl involved was older than him and from a high caste family . They raped him for being involved with their female relative , then his father was ordered to bring his daughter to the council where she was gang raped . Her rape brought shame on the family , but boys are raped all the time with no shame and no outcry .

Rape of boys in Pakistan isn't uncommon, but I don't think there's any big difference in reaction according to gender. There's a great deal of stigma either way, there's outcry, but the judicial system is slow and families come under a lot of pressure to drop the whole thing. In the case of this brother (11 in reports I read at the time) and sister here, it was actually suggested that the older woman invented the whole affair bit in order to shield her kinsmen, who had raped the boy. This led to a heckuva lot more outcry and widespread Pakistani demands that crazy tribal leaders be reigned in. And to suggest that there's no shame... I'd challenge you to find the culture in which male rape isn't intensely shameful.

[Nerdzilla]

I think you could say that all around the world, someone, someplace is using a twisted interpretation of just about any religion to degrade woman and generally oppress citizens. IMO

Which is exactly why you'll find that religion and I aren't friends. Any nut job can twist ANYTHING around to suit their purpose(s), and convince untold numbers of people that their way is the right way, the only way. *puke*

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Which is exactly why you'll find that religion and I aren't friends. Any nut job can twist ANYTHING around to suit their purpose(s), and convince untold numbers of people that their way is the right way, the only way. *puke*

This practice is not limited to religion. I could say the same thing about many non-religious beliefs. Just sayin'

[chatdenuit]

This practice is not limited to religion. I could say the same thing about many non-religious beliefs. Just sayin'

Absolutely.

[HijabiGirl]

Check your facts again.

It isn't rape if the men consent.

I don't know where you get your facts but rape is rape, in Islam or otherwise. For it not to be rape requires both parties to give consent. I am very versed in fiqh (Islamic jurispridence) and this is not something the scholars disagree on. This....council of elders that passed the "ruling" obviously were not scholars by any stretch of the imagination. I wonder if they were even literate.

There are sound Hadiths (written recordings of the actions and words of Mohammed (pbuh)) where a woman was raped. She immediately went and found some men and told them what happened. These men captured the male and took him before Mohammed (pbuh) and Mohammed (pbuh) ordered the man stoned to death. Obviously she wasn't consenting and the perp was all for it, but it did not change the verdict.

So according to the fiqh, the men who gang raped her should be stoned to death and the "judges" receive lashings. (this would be the lightest ruling according to fiqh) Here is a fatwa (legal ruling on fiqh) concerning rape and how it is to be viewed and handled in Islam. http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/72338/rape

[swivel]

I don't know where you get your facts but rape is rape, in Islam or otherwise. For it not to be rape requires both parties to give consent. I am very versed in fiqh (Islamic jurispridence) and this is not something the scholars disagree on. This....council of elders that passed the "ruling" obviously were not scholars by any stretch of the imagination. I wonder if they were even literate.

There are sound Hadiths (written recordings of the actions and words of Mohammed (pbuh)) where a woman was raped. She immediately went and found some men and told them what happened. These men captured the male and took him before Mohammed (pbuh) and Mohammed (pbuh) ordered the man stoned to death. Obviously she wasn't consenting and the perp was all for it, but it did not change the verdict.

So according to the fiqh, the men who gang raped her should be stoned to death and the "judges" receive lashings. (this would be the lightest ruling according to fiqh) Here is a fatwa (legal ruling on fiqh) concerning rape and how it is to be viewed and handled in Islam. http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/72338/rape

I'm sorry. My sarcasm-tone-generator is busted. I'm making fun of the way that Muslim men view their women. In their eyes, this was not rape, but the punishment a woman deserved.

[HijabiGirl]

I'm sorry. My sarcasm-tone-generator is busted. I'm making fun of the way that Muslim men view their women. In their eyes, this was not rape, but the punishment a woman deserved.

Eeep, my bad, I didn't pick up on the "dry" tone. But honestly, can you generalize this to all Muslim men? Have you met any and conversed? The Muslim men I've met, and given that I am Muslim I've met a lot, are no different than any other group of guys. Some jerks, some nice ones, and some I wouldn't mind marrying if I didn't have someone in my life already.
My experience has been that misogynisitc men tend to cross all religious and cultural boundaries. I mean, depfense lawyers still present the clothing women were wearing at the time of rape as a justification, an unsubtle approach to "she was asking for it."

Our society furthers the belief that women are not of value by giving rapists a slap on a wrist and maybe a few months in jail. For a repeat rapist they may get a few years. Peronally I think there is one cure for rapists (and we aren't talking about the 18 year old boyfriend having consentual sex with his 16 year old girlfriend), that is a bullet to the head. Because these guys (and sometimes girls) are wired so wrong that they force sex on someone to show their power. If they are that fundamentally screwed up then I say let's put them down like the rabid dogs they are, no?

[swivel]

The only difference between Muslim men and Christian men is about 150 years of liberalization. If Christian men had their way, they would put Sharia law into place as well.

What religion does, as a man-created system of control, is put the natural evil of their genetic urges into law. Which gives otherwise good men the excuse to behave badly.

[Castille]

The only difference between Muslim men and Christian men is about 150 years of liberalization. If Christian men had their way, they would put Sharia law into place as well.

What religion does, as a man-created system of control, is put the natural evil of their genetic urges into law. Which gives otherwise good men the excuse to behave badly.

True enough... I thought we had enough of our home grown christian groups working as we speak to remake the US into a christian theocracy - from dominionists who believe in their own biblical mandate to rule, to the fringey Christian Reconstructionists. It's secularism that's kept that crap in check in the west, not that the religious outlooks of radical christians and muslims are oh-so-different.