Turns out, government CAN respect one religion over another...

**Athena** · February 25th, 2009, 06:59 PM

...As long as it's in the form of public momuments.

(WASHINGTON) — The Supreme Court has ruled unanimously that a small religious group cannot force a city in Utah to place a granite marker in a local park that already is home to a Ten Commandments display.

Pleasant Grove City, Utah, rejected the group's marker, prompting a federal lawsuit that argued that a city can't allow some private donations of displays in its public park and reject others. The federal appeals court in Denver agreed.

In his opinion for the court, Justice Samuel Alito distinguished the Summum's case from efforts to prevent groups from speaking in public parks, which ordinarily would violate the First Amendment's free speech guarantee.

Alito said "the display of a permanent monument in a public park" requires a different analysis.

Because monuments in public parks help define a city's identity, "cities and other jurisdictions take some care in accepting donated monuments," he said.

The First Amendment states that government shall not respect any religion over another. Isn't this... that?

**Peeperann** · February 25th, 2009, 07:14 PM

I agree. I don't think they should be able to pick and choose. It's wrong. However, as our country was founded upon Christianity, i'm thinking that's why they declined. Not saying it's right, just that it's probably why.

**brokenandtwisted** · February 25th, 2009, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by Peeperann

I agree. I don't think they should be able to pick and choose. It's wrong. However, as our country was founded upon Christianity, i'm thinking that's why they declined. Not saying it's right, just that it's probably why.

Founded on morally inept principles, yes. The monument in question is in Utah, so we already know this conversation isn't worth having...I mean it's Utah people...I last had a serious conversation about that state in a discussion about Twilight and Stephanie Meyer's insidious Mormon agenda.

State + religion = disaster. There's nothing to disprove this tidbit of info.

**Pete Bondurant** · February 26th, 2009, 05:17 PM

Founded on morally inept principles, yes.

There is nothing wrong about restricting voting rights to white, male property owners. America has suffered greatly since this policy was discontinued.

**swivel** · February 26th, 2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Peeperann

I agree. I don't think they should be able to pick and choose. It's wrong. However, as our country was founded upon Christianity, i'm thinking that's why they declined. Not saying it's right, just that it's probably why.

But... this country wasn't founded on Christianity. It was founded on 100% secular ideas.

The Declaration of Independence is not what founded our country. That was a war document from one group of British subjects to the Crown.

God didn't make it onto our money or into our pledge until after WWII, when the commie scare was at full strength.

Ignoring all of this, it wouldn't even matter if our country WAS founded on Christianity (again, it wasn't). Why? Because our country was founded on SLAVERY, on MISOGYNY, on NATIVE AMERICAN ABUSES and other far-worse goodies. Worshiping our founding fathers is to ignore their own writings and the amendment process. They knew they were fucking up and left room for corrections.

It is immoral for Christians to push their superstition on others. That is all that matters today.

**Pete Bondurant** · February 26th, 2009, 07:25 PM

Originally Posted by swivel

Because our country was founded on SLAVERY, on MISOGYNY, on NATIVE AMERICAN ABUSES and other far-worse goodies.

It is immoral for Christians to push their superstition on others. That is all that matters today.

The United States were not founded on the principles or practises of slavery, misogyny and the abuse of aboriginal peoples. The Unites States was created to establish a representative government for the colonists. The fact that certain ideals existed, that are generally repudiated today, does not mean that those ideals were the motivating factor for the American Revolution. Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton and John Adams, among others...were opposed to slavery...at least at a certain point in their lives. Compromises had to be made to ensure the existence of the United States...if this did not happen, you would not be here now.

**swivel** · February 26th, 2009, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant

The United States were not founded on the principles or practises of slavery, misogyny and the abuse of aboriginal peoples. The Unites States was created to establish a representative government for the colonists. The fact that certain ideals existed, that are generally repudiated today, does not mean that those ideals were the motivating factor for the American Revolution. Benjamin Franklin, Alexander Hamilton and John Adams, among others...were opposed to slavery...at least at a certain point in their lives. Compromises had to be made to ensure the existence of the United States...if this did not happen, you would not be here now.

Dude, the issue of slavery came up over and over during the constitutional congress. The deal was explicit: no mention of it in the Constitution and the Norther States were not allowed to bring it up for a set number of years (I forget how many).

The fact that women were not given the right to vote is a major tell. I'm not blaming them, they were a product of their times and I celebrate them for being as progressive as they were. What we need to stop doing is pretending that the founding fathers had it all figured out and that our country should remain static. There is almost a pseudo-religion formed around our worship of the old farts.

Oh, and Ben Franklin was a Misogynist. The dude was an animal around women. Flirtatious and abusive. And the guy that shaped out country the most early on was T. Jefferson, a big slave-owner (and slave-fucker).

**Pete Bondurant** · February 26th, 2009, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by swivel

And the guy that shaped out country the most early on was T. Jefferson, a big slave-owner (and slave-fucker).

The man who shaped our country was Hamilton. America became an image of Hamilton's ideal, not Jeffersons. America is not a nation of yoeman farmers and decentralised government. It's all about commerce.

**swivel** · February 26th, 2009, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant

The man who shaped our country was Hamilton. America became an image of Hamilton's ideal, not Jeffersons. America is not a nation of yoeman farmers and decentralised government. It's all about commerce.

That came about 30 years later. Notice I said "early on". We are talking about the Founding Fathers, not the Presiding Politicians.

Now, please post a funny picture that will enlighten us on how the United States wasn't founded on slavery and misogyny.

**brokenandtwisted** · February 26th, 2009, 10:27 PM

If it matters, Hamilton's life was far more interesting than Jefferson's.

Not to interrupt, or anything. ;)

**Pete Bondurant** · February 28th, 2009, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by swivel

That came about 30 years later. Notice I said "early on". We are talking about the Founding Fathers, not the Presiding Politicians.

Now, please post a funny picture that will enlighten us on how the United States wasn't founded on slavery and misogyny.

Hamilton was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention, being the only New York delegate to actually vote in favour of it. He was also one of the authors of The Federalist Papers along with James Madison and John Jay. Hamilton, in fact, wrote a majority of the essays therein. He was also the first Secretary of the Treasury and the leader of the Federalist Party. Thirty years later....Hamilton lay bleeding on a field in Weehauken, New Jersey....shot in a duel by the Vice President of the United States...and some of you think Dick Cheney is evil.

**swivel** · February 28th, 2009, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant

Hamilton was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention, being the only New York delegate to actually vote in favour of it. He was also one of the authors of The Federalist Papers along with James Madison and John Jay. Hamilton, in fact, wrote a majority of the essays therein. He was also the first Secretary of the Treasury and the leader of the Federalist Party. Thirty years later....Hamilton lay bleeding on a field in Weehauken, New Jersey....shot in a duel by the Vice President of the United States...and some of you think Dick Cheney is evil.

And he didn't get his banks or any of his nationalized financial institutions until well after the country was founded.

The Constitution that Jefferson wanted is the one we got: a powerless federal agency enslaved by warring States. With Virginia clearly the alpha male. Of course, Hamilton would be ecstatic today...

**Pete Bondurant** · March 1st, 2009, 05:44 PM

Because our country was founded on SLAVERY, on MISOGYNY, on NATIVE AMERICAN ABUSES

At any rate...America was not founded on those practises, because they existed in full force prior to the founding of the United States of America. The United States cannot be founded on something that was already in existence, and was, in fact, part of the fabric of daily life regardless of wether or not the colonies declared their independence.