Florida Clinic Botched Abortion, Threw Out Live Baby

[Silvahalo]

What about women who do choose to carry out to term, then find out 28 weeks into the pregnancy, that the same child they are carrying them is slowly killing them? What if the woman finds out, that the same child they are carrying is going to die in the first hour of life? Is that woman just supposed to die because this child did not choose to be born? Do you really want this other woman to feel the heartbreak of seeing her child born, breathe, cry, then die, when she can let it go before any of this? You have think about all women, not just the one's who make mistakes.

Pene, as I responded to Nerdzilla's comment, (I should have made this clear in my response to Athena). I am absolutely for the right of a woman terminating her pregnancy in any stage of pregnancy, if her life, the childs life or both are threatened in any way. I know from personal experience what it is like to make a very difficult choice under extreme circumstances. So for anyone else reading this, I'm speaking from experience. I know the heart-ache, the devastation the utter feelings of hopelessness that goes with that choice. I was hoping to not have to go there but since it seems it is necessary, to clarify and reiterate my stance, I have told you so.
Nothing I have said was ever meant to be judgmental and or insensitive to others. And for the record Pene, I do "think about all women", my personal anguish on this subject goes far deeper than you will ever know.

[MadmamainNC]

I'm telling you this because I love you all and I don't feel anyone of you will judge me for making this decision. But I do want you all to know it's a very hard decision to make especially when you are young.

Special, I love you and do know you aren't alone in this. I already discussed this with you in email but want to share my opinion with the others.

I agree on the point above. Most 16 yr olds or girls around that age are terrified of either both of their parents or at least one of their parents. They don't have the mental capability of making a sound decision that will effect the rest of their lives and often more than not, they choose the abortion out of fear and not because they don't want the child. What these girls need is help. That help being in counseling further than the Intake Assoc at the clinic. So they know for sure this is what they want to do. If they decide to go further and keep the child but are scared of their parents, then mandatory counseling for their parents so no matter what decision they make, it's the best one for young mother and she is protected from the emotional or physical fallout that can and often times, follows.
I've been down this road and chose for myself because I was terrified of both of my parents. I didn't choose because I didn't want to raise a child at 17. During this time, I was so damn scared I seriously entertained an even easier way out. I also had a teacher who I confided in. This teacher wasn't much older than I was BUT, she met my father before and agreed with my decision because she too was terrified of him.

People don't understand that making abortions illegal, subject these girls to making serious life threatening choices to themselves that they normally wouldn't make. Either by taking their own life, or using back alley quick fixes which can ultimately take their life. If I didn't have the option, I probably would have ran away or taken my own life. Life at home wasn't a joy ride because of other issues going on and believe me..scared can't even begin to describe the feeling I had.

I regret it to this day however, and I do feel punished as well as feel I deserve it but often I feel my children are carrying that burden. When my children struggle, I feel it's a form of penance for what I did. That surely is coming from the Catholic upbringing I had. Guilt Guilt and more guilt. How much guilt can one person carry? Ya Know? Ugh! and you wonder why I hate organized religion. I deal with these feelings in silence.

There are not enough resources. Sure, Father so and so, or Nurse whomever can help the girl break the news to the parents but at some point those people have to go home and then the girl is all alone to face the fallout. Some cases it isn't very pretty. It's not as easy as some people like to believe. Is this a case of the girls life being in danger? Even if that danger is fabricated in her mind? Because that fabrication can lead her to do something really stupid. I say yes.
I know for a fact I would have had the living shit beat out of me. At that time (1979), it would have been allowed. Or at least parents weren't afraid to take their ever loving rage out on their kids. We knew this.

When my daughter got pregnant at 16, she was scared to tell me but not at the same level I was under the same circumstances. She was nervous I should say. I counseled her on what she wanted to do and was honest with her over my choice in the past and what it's done to me over these many years. She never entertained that thought. I am proud of her for making the decision to bring my granddaughter into this world. I am also proud of me, that I was not a fear monger to the point she made a decision based out of fear of me.

Sorry this is so long, just had to get this out there and show that it's not all black and white. There is a serious gray area involved.

[Peeperann]

What about women who do choose to carry out to term, then find out 28 weeks into the pregnancy, that the same child they are carrying them is slowly killing them? What if the woman finds out, that the same child they are carrying is going to die in the first hour of life? Is that woman just supposed to die because this child did not choose to be born? Do you really want this other woman to feel the heartbreak of seeing her child born, breathe, cry, then die, when she can let it go before any of this? You have think about all women, not just the one's who make mistakes.

Of course not Pene. If a womans life is in jepordy, She has the right to choose her life or the baby's life. While I personally would choose my child's life, that's not the correct decision for every woman.

If they say the baby is going to 100% die within a hour of birth (I can't really see how they could possibly tell that) but, then yes, she has the right. But the point is, how far along are you talking about? 8 weeks, 20 weeks, 30 weeks? My twins, Ryan and Melissa were born at 29 weeks, they were small, but perfect. I just cannot see it at that point.

They were not a bunch of cells, they were babies. And this was 25 years ago and they are perfect to this day, other than Ryan has a small stutter from being born so early.

[Peeperann]

Madmama, what a powerful, beautiful and brave post. Thank you so much.

[Athena]

Athena, I see you have used a phrase I've used in other posts, "offend my sensibilities"...not sure if that is meant to mock me... .Nevertheless, I think instead, I might have offended your sensibilities. That statement was made for shock value. I don't really believe that you believe that. Fortunately, the law and countless others don't see it that way either.

I had no idea that I used a common phrase of yours. It seemed appropriate because this argument seems to rely heavily on "sensibilities" rather than logic, per se. After all, it is an emotional issue for many.

FYI - My mocking is blatant. You'd never have to wonder. That said, I've never seen any reason to mock you. I only tend to mock those I feel are being willfully ignorant or intentionally offensive. You're free and clear.

That said, I do truly believe that, as does the law in many cases. The woman who shot herself in the stomach in Virginia to cause an abortion had the charges against her dropped because the judge ruled that causing your own abortion is not a crime. This is what I, too, believe. I think a woman should have the ultimate say in what goes on with her body, at any stage of pregnancy. If the government wants to prevent doctors from performing late term abortions, that's fine. But a woman should be reserved the right to abort up until the very end. Muahahahaha...

Seriously, though. Not shock value. I truly believe that.

It goes with out saying that the fetus is only an extension of the women until born. But even after birth the baby is entirely dependent on others for survival. That isn't the argument, as I mentioned before, it is the inherent potential that is important. There is no argument, no doubt, the possibilities that that life in the womb, has to play on society and humanity in general. If we were to treat that potential life so callously, we would be a doomed society for certain.

You and I will have to agree to disagree, on this point. In my opinion, the potential for life does not and should not trump the rights of the life that's already established (the mother).

Oh, and we do treat the potential of life so callously. Less callously than ever before (think the Spartans, eugenics, forced sterilization, etc.), and yet we do nothing but progress. Such "cruelty" is to our benefit. Our hearts are what typically slow us down, in that respect.

"Forced incubator", well, maybe, but why not? When it comes to a women that wants to terminate a pregnancy in her late stages, I say, at the very least she owes, (yes, owe, that fetus didn't ask to be conceived), it to this unborn life to finish what she started, then give up the baby for adoption...countless want babies who can't have them. Why should that unborn life pay the price of being terminated because, of what?...a mistake. Sorry, actions have consequences. And what of those that use abortions as a means for birth control??? Sickening I say. Again, as I have said, I am for choice, for the rights of a women to decide what happens to her body, and that goes with anything not just abortion. However, I draw the line when it comes to late term abortions...that is MY moral opinion.

What "price" does a terminated fetus pay, exactly? You seem to attribute to it human qualities that it simply doesn't possess, yet.

That said, we're not going to come to agreement, and that's okay. "Morality" in this sense is too arbitrary, for me. My "morality" is derived from a ranking, for lack of a better word, of the rights of all parties involved, and the consequences for each outcome. In this case, a fetus doesn't even have a whole set of rights to begin with, so it's on the losing end of the scenario.

[Peeperann]

What "price" does a terminated fetus pay, exactly? You seem to attribute to it human qualities that it simply doesn't possess, yet

Athena, for the very first time ever, you made a comment that makes no sense to me. The above quote.

At what point do you believe it begins to posses human qualities? The day it's born? Then why not the day before or a month before? I really am quite interested in that statement.

And remember, i'm pro-choice

[Athena]

Athena, for the very first time ever, you made a comment that makes no sense to me. The above quote.

At what point do you believe it begins to posses human qualities? The day it's born? Then why not the day before or a month before? I really am quite interested in that statement.

And remember, i'm pro-choice

Certainly the day its born. That's when it takes its first breath or air and first look at the world. The day that it is born, it is its own separate entity with it's own set of inalienable rights. Not so a day or month before. For, as long as it is within a woman, it is secondary to her already established set of rights. It has no life of its own; thus, it cannot pay for anything with it.

[Silvahalo]

I have already divulged more personal information on this subject than I feel comfortable with, and have opened a wound I once thought was healed....
I respectfully agree to disagree.

[Stella]

I'm really torn on this subject. I am for sure pro-choice. But having worked at an ob/gyn office for almost 10 years, I've heard every single excuse. I tried my very best to not judge the PATIENT, as this was her choice. (I did judge the screaming parents, though, as I could not give out information, hippa, ya' know. And, yes, I know you're paying her insurance premiums, Daddy.)

As for late term, I only knew of two the whole time I worked there and they were both done at the only facility in this area that does 12+ weeks. Both were for medical reasons and both were gut-wrenching decisions. I set up both procedures. I was able to maintain my cool until the patient and family left. These were decisions not decided on a whim. But that's just my experience, and I don't know what I would've done. This case is completely different.

Every elective termination I scheduled, though, made me think since I was never able to have children. You see, someone decided that for me when I was 19 y.o. This would NEVER happen today.

Due to my orthopedic problems, my gyn and orthopedic doctor at the time decided it was best that I not bear children. I was barely sexually active at the time and on the pill. But that wasn't good enough at that time (early 70's). So I had my tubes tied, well removed actually since they discovered severe endometrios and removed everything on on the right side and left 1/3 of my left ovary so I would not be forced into surgical menopause at the tender age of 19. I've had female problems ever since. Went through full out menopause at 38.

So, you see, some days I get very angry about this. Other days, when my step-sons and my wonderful hubs, who married me and gave me the opportunity to raise these boys (elem school age), I think that things just happen for a reason. Am I wrong? Am I right? Medicine has come far since the early 70's, back when there weren't patient advocates, and you just did what your physicians' said. That's just the way it was. The older physicians in the practice where I worked understood (sort of); however, the younger physicians were just completely appalled that I consented to this. I didn't know NOT to. Hell, they weren't even born then.

I do know that in today's medicine, I could safely carry and deliver a child (by c/section only); however, what it would do to my body might make it so I would not be able to take care of the infant and toddler as a "normal" person would.

I have severe scoliosis and had a left total hip replacement for my 40th bday. My spine is curved almost in a perfect "s" so you probably wouldn't have noticed so much but would now that it's out there. I've learned to compensate and work on good posture. But that doesn't make my insides perfect for making a baby. And I would NEVER wish this on a child of mine.

But I still don't think, well, I'm still torn. But I do know that I'm pro-choice. If the government starts messing with this issue any more, well, we're back to square one.

This is a rambling post, I know, but it's my life and my llife is sort of rambled. And this subject is a bit of a sore point sometimes with me.

Most everyone who makes the decision to electively terminate does not make that decision lightly. Like I said before, the ones I have a problem with are the ones that use it for birth control. Hell, we gave these patients OCP's, IUD's; we ate the cost of these IUD's. They would just go to a clinic somewhere and have it removed for some weird reason.

In our state (or is it Federal? I can't remember now), elective terminations aren't covered. Tubal ligations are if you are 21 y.o. and there is a 30 day waiting period. I believe it's Federal.

{S}

[Peeperann]

Certainly the day its born. That's when it takes its first breath or air and first look at the world. The day that it is born, it is its own separate entity with it's own set of inalienable rights. Not so a day or month before. For, as long as it is within a woman, it is secondary to her already established set of rights. It has no life of its own; thus, it cannot pay for anything with it.

Maybe it's because you're not a mom and have never carried a life in you. Trust me, they all have every human quality long before they take that first breath. They breathe within the womb, proven fact. You can feel them have hiccups, but like Silvahalo, I will have to respectfully and completely disagree with you.

[Nell]

Stella, Silvahalo, Special, thank you all for sharing. i am sure that was hard.

Abortion is a very sensitive subject. It is why i stay out of it, I learned my lesson early, lol. But we have gotten off topic. The thread was about a baby that was murdered, as even Athena said. It breathed, therefore it was a live human and had all the rights we all enjoy. Just because this tragedy happened in an abortion clinic doesn't change the facts.

i think the poor girl was doped and in shock. She did not know or sign up for what happened. Just because we think we would be smarter and faster in our decision making doesn't mean that we should jude her as harshly as the office manager and DR.

[Athena]

Maybe it's because you're not a mom and have never carried a life in you. Trust me, they all have every human quality long before they take that first breath.

With all due respect (which is a lot, as I do adore you, Peeper), this is coming from a woman who claims the ability to feel her soul. And you may very well, for all I know! What I do know is that, you and I are very different creatures, and that will prohibit any further common ground on this issue. Good thing we're both already pro-choice, which is the important thing.

On another note, I really like to have spirited discussions with you ladies. I'm terribly sorry that the topic is a difficult one, emotionally, because I've been pleased by the nature of the conversation. The statements have been thorough, inquisitive, candid and heartfelt. It doesn't get much better than that.

Okay, now someone do the little group hug emoticon. I don't know how. :P

[Nell]

[Peeperann]

Thanks Athena. And you know I adore and respect you very much also. Actually I think it's ok that we disagree on this point. The world would be a very tired and boring place if everyone was the same.

That said, Nell is correct, we did sorta hi-jack the thread. But on this issue I don't believe it could ever stay on track!

So,

[malq]

I was gonna put my two cents in, but sounds like it's hit a sweet spot to end this for now. Gotta love three things.

[Sister Iroz]

Special, I love you and do know you aren't alone in this. I already discussed this with you in email but want to share my opinion with the others.

Damn, I'm crying again. Thank you Madmam for sharing, you explained the situation very well. I was terrified to tell my parents, but that's a story for another thread. I had know idea my mom would be okay though but I can say I believe my dad would have exploded. Actually, he may have beat the shit out of my boyfriend or worse yet me.

Anyhow, Mad thank you for understanding and sharing your story.

[Sister Iroz]

With all due respect (which is a lot, as I do adore you, Peeper), this is coming from a woman who claims the ability to feel her soul. And you may very well, for all I know! What I do know is that, you and I are very different creatures, and that will prohibit any further common ground on this issue. Good thing we're both already pro-choice, which is the important thing.

On another note, I really like to have spirited discussions with you ladies. I'm terribly sorry that the topic is a difficult one, emotionally, because I've been pleased by the nature of the conversation. The statements have been thorough, inquisitive, candid and heartfelt. It doesn't get much better than that.

Okay, now someone do the little group hug emoticon. I don't know how. :P

Per Athena's request and a damn good one.

[Castille]

I've debated posting to this thread a bit, so trust me to get around to it after it's wrapped up... But I wanted to say I had an abortion once too, when I was 18. I don't talk about it - I just don't want the judgement, the hassle from the anti-abortion crowd, or to feel the need to justify myself. But it isn't because I regret it. It was the right decision. It was hard. There were perhaps some pangs of regret that the details of my life were crappy, weren't right for a baby, a fantasy wish that things could've been different, but the overwhelming feeling I had after the abortion was relief. In spades. It was like a shadow off my heart. The depression lifted. I felt freed to sart over without the abusive guy - and I did. I continue to be endlessly grateful that it was an option for me. I wouldn't be where I am now, with the beautiful children I have, under all the better circumstances I could've hoped for, for them. When I look at them, I'm thankful that now I'm in a position to be the kind of parent I wanted to be. I donate annually to Planned Parenthood because I fervently want to make sure that abortion continues to be an option for women who find themselves in similar circumstances. I hope women always have that final out available to them. This all sounds odd, but I just felt a need to be a voice for the women who aren't filled with painful regret over those hard decisions.


And this whole live birth incident is crazy - I thought usual protocol over 20 weeks was to inject the baby's heart with saline at the first visit when they begin the dilation - to avoid just this sort of birth. If this Dr. didn't follow that standard, I am concerned that this is not the only occassion in which a live born baby didn't recieve care. Any medical professional is required to give appropriate medical care to a live born baby!

[malq]

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A doctor's license was revoked Friday in the case of a teenager who planned to have an abortion but instead gave birth to a baby she says was killed when clinic staffers put it into a plastic bag and threw it in the trash.

Pierre Jean-Jacques Renelique, right, and his attorney, Joseph Harrison, at the hearing.

The doctor, Pierre Jean-Jacques Renelique, also is the subject of a criminal investigation. Renelique was not present when the baby was born, but the Florida Medical Board upheld Department of Health allegations that he falsified medical records, inappropriately delegated tasks to unlicensed personnel and committed malpractice.
http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/06/flo...ion/index.html

Joseph Harrison, the attorney representing Renelique at the license revocation hearing in Tampa, said Renelique has not decided whether to appeal.

The state attorney's office, meanwhile, said its criminal investigation into the incident is ongoing and no charges have been filed. A fetus born alive cannot be put to death even if its mother intended to have an abortion, police said when the incident occurred in 2006.

The baby's mother, Sycloria Williams, sued Renelique, the clinic and its staff in January, seeking damages.

She alleges in her suit that "she witnessed the murder of her daughter" and said she "sustained severe emotional distress, shock and psychic trauma which have resulted in discernible bodily injury."

"This is not about a pot of gold," said Tom Pennekamp, her attorney. "What this is about is right and wrong and making a statement, making sure it doesn't happen to other young women."

According to the suit, Williams, then 18, discovered while being treated for a fall that she was 23 weeks pregnant. She went to a clinic to get an abortion on the morning of July 20, 2006, after receiving medication and instructions the previous day.

Renelique was not at the clinic, however, and Williams was told to wait for him. She was given two pills and told they would make her ill. When she complained of feeling ill, clinic staff members gave her a robe and told her to lie down in a patient room, the suit says.

Renelique was still not present when Williams "felt a large pain" and delivered a baby girl, according to the suit.

"The staff began screaming and pandemonium ensued. Sycloria watched in horror and shock as her baby writhed with her chest rising and falling as she breathed."
Don't Miss

* Read the Department of Health complaint (PDF)

A clinic co-owner entered the room and used a pair of shears to cut the baby's umbilical cord, the suit said. She "then scooped up the baby and placed the live baby, placenta and afterbirth in a red plastic biohazard bag, which she sealed, and then threw bag and the baby in a trash can."

Staff at the clinic did not call 911 or seek medical assistance for Williams or the baby, the suit said.

Renelique arrived at the clinic about an hour later and gave Williams a shot to put her to sleep. "She awoke after the procedure and was sent home still in complete shock," the suit said.

Police were notified of the incident by an anonymous caller who told them the baby was born alive and disposed of.

"The complainant [Williams] observed the baby moving and gasping for air for approximately five minutes," according to a police affidavit requesting a search warrant for the clinic.

Two search warrants found nothing, but officers executing a third warrant "found the decomposing body of a baby in a cardboard box in a closet," the suit said.

The baby was linked to Williams through DNA testing, the lawsuit said. An autopsy showed it had filled its lungs with air prior to death. Documents from the state Department of Health said its cause of death was determined to be "extreme prematurity."

Fewer than 1 percent of babies are born at less than 28 weeks, according to the March of Dimes, a nonprofit organization aimed at reducing premature births, birth defects and infant mortality.

Infants born at that stage may survive, but require treatment with oxygen, other medical help and mechanical assistance to help them breathe. They are too immature to suck or swallow and so must be fed intravenously.

Babies born before about 32 weeks of gestation face the highest risk of health problems, the March of Dimes said.

Williams' lawsuit seeks damages from Renelique, the clinic and its staff. It claims that clinic records were falsified to say only that Williams underwent an abortion. Williams filed the suit individually and "as personal representative of the estate of Shanice Denise Osbourne, deceased," the suit said.

The medical board's action Friday came at the request of the Florida Department of Health, which filed an order in February 2007 seeking emergency restrictions on Renelique's license. Department documents list many of the same allegations as Williams' lawsuit.

"Dr. Renelique's failure to practice medicine with that level of care, skill and treatment that is recognized as being acceptable, as well as his willingness to falsify medical records, poses a serious and immediate danger to the public," the health department said.

Renelique did not respond to the health department or dispute the facts it alleged, department spokeswoman Eulinda Jackson said Friday.

Williams has declined to speak publicly about the case, said Pennekamp, her attorney. She suffers from post-traumatic stress because of the experience, he said.

[swivel]

$1,200?!?!

I would do this for $300!

[Pete Bondurant]

Do not fret, all. It was not a white baby.

[flawed_existence]

Oh lord. May I preface this by stating that virtually all of my human, real live, friends are MALE. They aren't the folks I would discuss this kind of thing with. Not because they aren't wonderful, but because they really can't know what I'm talking about. The ladies on the D'D are women I can relate to. You are all 'real', if that makes any sense. You are strong women who are feminine. Nurses, vet's wives, bisexual vixens, you are all beautiful women I respect and feel a great deal of love for.

My viewpoint on this situation is not going to be appreciated. Let me begin by saying that I believe that all souls are forever. If we aren't born in one life/body, we will be in another. When life ends, it begins again.

A 23 week pregnancy is NOT INTENDED to survive outside the womb. Just because we can keep a child who is born at 23 weeks of pregnancy ALIVE, does not mean he/she is going to have any quality of life.

The abilities of medical science have outrun the ethics and consequences. An infant born and kept alive at 23 weeks of pregnancy has no chance of a "normal" life. This child will ALWAYS require extraordinary amounts of assistance and intervention. She/he will never run and play, learn the ABC's, go to prom, have a first kiss, marry and have children. This child will require constant medical and physical care for his/her entire life.

Am I saying that Special Needs children do not deserve to live? No. I HAVE a Special Needs child. It has been an absolute miracle that I have been able to provide for this child. And he was born at 40 weeks of pregnancy. After I discovered at 6 weeks that I was pregnant. I CHOSE to continue the pregnancy. An abortion was scheduled for the 7th week.

What I AM saying is that the woman in question DID NOT WANT A CHILD. She DID NOT have the resources to care for a child born at 23 weeks of gestation. The LAW ALLOWED for abortions to be performed through 24 weeks of gestation. The ABORTION itself wasn't ILLEGAL, It was MISHANDLED. The woman should have been placed under general anesthesia and the procedure (abortion) carried out at that point. Instead, she began vaginal delivery of 23 week gestation pregnancy due to the medication given to her by the staff at the abortion clinic. THAT is where everything went wrong. The woman should have been immediately transferred to a hospital if there was any way of knowing that the fetus was still alive. Was there? If Florida has a 24 week law, then does it matter? Born alive or dead, it still remains an abortion: The deliberate expulsion of a fetus, according to Webster's. OF COURSE the fetus was alive until is was deliberately expelled from the womb. That's why the procedure is called an abortion.

Yes, I agree, delivering a live baby and stuffing it into a plastic bag and throwing it in a dumpster is WRONG. It is the absolute horror story of all the abortion foes. They LOVE spouting this kind of information.

But anyone who has read more than a few Dreamin' Demon front-pagers knows that unwanted children are an epidemic in America. Stupid women have babies every day. And then abuse or let the men they 'love' abuse them until they are dead or nearly so. Every time I read about a brain damaged shaken baby, all I can do is hope the child dies. She/He IS NOT going to get well. Don't ya'll GET IT? A perfectly normal baby/child is destroyed and going to be a burden to SOMEONE for the rest of his/her life. In all likelihood the fucking taxpayers. Being improperly cared for in a goddamn state institution somewhere. Is this what you call LIFE? Well, it's no different than the life a child born at 23 weeks gestation will live. The victim of abuse, as if he/she had been shaken/burned/raped/starved.

I can't condemn a girl/woman for not wanting a pregnancy. They do happen. In this case, I place the blame on the abortion clinic for not making sure the fetus of 23 weeks gestation was DEAD before delivery. Right, wrong, or what the fuck ever. If the law allows for a 23 week gestation abortion, then do it right, goddamnit.

Hate me, revile me, I don't care. I can't be SilvaHalo. I love and respect her. I admire her hope and compassion. But I believe children would be better off dead than 'living' a not-life of institutional care.

[Silvahalo]

Oh lord. May I preface this by stating that virtually all of my human, real live, friends are MALE. They aren't the folks I would discuss this kind of thing with. Not because they aren't wonderful, but because they really can't know what I'm talking about. The ladies on the D'D are women I can relate to. You are all 'real', if that makes any sense. You are strong women who are feminine. Nurses, vet's wives, bisexual vixens, you are all beautiful women I respect and feel a great deal of love for.

My viewpoint on this situation is not going to be appreciated. Let me begin by saying that I believe that all souls are forever. If we aren't born in one life/body, we will be in another. When life ends, it begins again.

A 23 week pregnancy is NOT INTENDED to survive outside the womb. Just because we can keep a child who is born at 23 weeks of pregnancy ALIVE, does not mean he/she is going to have any quality of life.

The abilities of medical science have outrun the ethics and consequences. An infant born and kept alive at 23 weeks of pregnancy has no chance of a "normal" life. This child will ALWAYS require extraordinary amounts of assistance and intervention. She/he will never run and play, learn the ABC's, go to prom, have a first kiss, marry and have children. This child will require constant medical and physical care for his/her entire life.

Am I saying that Special Needs children do not deserve to live? No. I HAVE a Special Needs child. It has been an absolute miracle that I have been able to provide for this child. And he was born at 40 weeks of pregnancy. After I discovered at 6 weeks that I was pregnant. I CHOSE to continue the pregnancy. An abortion was scheduled for the 7th week.

What I AM saying is that the woman in question DID NOT WANT A CHILD. She DID NOT have the resources to care for a child born at 23 weeks of gestation. The LAW ALLOWED for abortions to be performed through 24 weeks of gestation. The ABORTION itself wasn't ILLEGAL, It was MISHANDLED. The woman should have been placed under general anesthesia and the procedure (abortion) carried out at that point. Instead, she began vaginal delivery of 23 week gestation pregnancy due to the medication given to her by the staff at the abortion clinic. THAT is where everything went wrong. The woman should have been immediately transferred to a hospital if there was any way of knowing that the fetus was still alive. Was there? If Florida has a 24 week law, then does it matter? Born alive or dead, it still remains an abortion: The deliberate expulsion of a fetus, according to Webster's. OF COURSE the fetus was alive until is was deliberately expelled from the womb. That's why the procedure is called an abortion.

Yes, I agree, delivering a live baby and stuffing it into a plastic bag and throwing it in a dumpster is WRONG. It is the absolute horror story of all the abortion foes. They LOVE spouting this kind of information.

But anyone who has read more than a few Dreamin' Demon front-pagers knows that unwanted children are an epidemic in America. Stupid women have babies every day. And then abuse or let the men they 'love' abuse them until they are dead or nearly so. Every time I read about a brain damaged shaken baby, all I can do is hope the child dies. She/He IS NOT going to get well. Don't ya'll GET IT? A perfectly normal baby/child is destroyed and going to be a burden to SOMEONE for the rest of his/her life. In all likelihood the fucking taxpayers. Being improperly cared for in a goddamn state institution somewhere. Is this what you call LIFE? Well, it's no different than the life a child born at 23 weeks gestation will live. The victim of abuse, as if he/she had been shaken/burned/raped/starved.

I can't condemn a girl/woman for not wanting a pregnancy. They do happen. In this case, I place the blame on the abortion clinic for not making sure the fetus of 23 weeks gestation was DEAD before delivery. Right, wrong, or what the fuck ever. If the law allows for a 23 week gestation abortion, then do it right, goddamnit.

Hate me, revile me, I don't care. I can't be Silvahalo. I love and respect her. I admire her hope and compassion. But I believe children would be better off dead than 'living' a not-life of institutional care.

I have to say, this is probably one of the best, well spoken posts on this matter. FE, I might not agree with everything you said, but you said it well and with heart.

It might surprise you to know that I agree, that a good number of children born too early or beat and abused are better off dead. On an intellectual level, in my head, I know that. And never would I want a child to be condemned to a life that is no life and to suffer, and I know so many do. The part that gets me in my heart and my soul, in every fiber of my being, is the hope of healing and in some cases, a hope for a miracle that would give these poor children a real chance at life.

FE, your words are so kind and flatter me, but I'm just another person looking at a dream and living the reality of what life really is like. The world just needs more people like you who care, and take notice, that's all. In my dream of dreams, a child would never know pain, never die an untimely terrible way by the hands of violence. But I know life doesn't work that way for countless children, and I guess that is why I look to hope.

[Pixie]

As usual, you make valid and logical points Athena.

And I understand what you're saying too Nerdzilla.

I'm just a callous irrational bitch right now.

And you have every right!

[feisty76]

I wanted to thank everyone who posted on this thread. This is an issue that is especially close to my heart and I found everyone's responses to be well thought out, passionate, and articulate. Given the subject matter, I was glad to see that it didn't degenerate into ugly words and closed minded prattle. I wanted to especially thank those who shared their experiences with this. It was very moving for me and in a small way cathartic as well.

Peace,
feisty76

[flawed_existence]

Silvahalo, your hope for miracles and your ability to dream are two of the reasons you are a much better person than I am. Love you.

[Silvahalo]

I didn't want to start a new thread on this case, as it is relevant and pertains to the subject matter here at hand. There are those here that are likely familiar with this case of Baby Hope, and others that will read it and find yet another way for your heart to break.

"Baby Hope" was scheduled to die in two days, another victim of partial-birth abortion. Her mother had already begun the three-day procedure at notorious abortionist Martin Haskell's clinic, preparing her body to allow the abortionist to pull most of her baby feet-first out of the womb and then suck out the little girl's brain. Instead, the baby took her final breaths in the loving arms of a medical technician at the hospital that treated her mother for pain caused by the initial phase of the abortion procedure.

While the mother was being examined at Bethesda North Hospital in suburban Cincinnati, Ohio, April 7, she gave birth to a 22-week-old unborn baby -- a little girl who was too premature to survive, but who breathed and clung to life for over three hours. Hospital workers who cared for Baby Hope report continuing feelings of sadness and grief, but also peace -- "peace that she was comforted, held close, and even sang to until she took her last breath," according to nurse Connie Boyles. Emergency room technician Shelly Lowe held the baby until she died three hours and eight minutes after her birth. "I sat and held her. I felt no one should die alone," said Lowe at an April 20 news conference held by local pro-life groups. "We had her baptized. I named her Hope because I'd hoped she would make it."
....
Baby Hope's 19-year-old mother received the first stage of the abortion April 6, which involves inserting devices called laminaria in order to artificially dilate the cervix (the opening to the womb). Early the next morning, the mother arrived at the emergency room of the hospital, complaining of severe abdominal pain, according to the Catholic Telegraph. At first, she did not tell hospital workers that she was five months pregnant or that she had begun the partial-birth abortion procedure.

Suddenly, she gave birth to the little girl. "The baby took a gasp of air, which totally shocked me," Lowe said at the news conference. Neonatologists were quickly called to examine Baby Hope. They determined her "lungs were not developed enough to support life or to permit them to respirate her," according to the Cincinnati Post.

Lowe volunteered to stay with the baby until she died, rocking her and singing to her, watching her make small movements. "Her bottom lip would go in," Lowe said. "She would move her hands. The hands would open and close."
..."Baby Hope" is the name that Bethesda North Hospital Medical Technician Shelly Lowe, gave the baby. She was in her mother's womb for 22 weeks until her mother went to Dayton abortionist, Martin Haskell. At his abortion chamber, lamanaria were inserted to open her womb in preparation for extracting the baby in the process called partial birth abortion. After undergoing the first part of the abortion, the mother experienced acute abdominal pain, went to Bethesda North Hospital and delivered the baby in the emergency room. The baby was 22 weeks old and was born alive. Connie Boyles, a nurse, and Shelly Lowe attended her. A doctor judged that the baby could not survive and did not order intensive care. After a short time it became evident that she was breathing on her own and surviving on room air, but the order was not changed. She lived 3 hours without artificial assistance, raising the obvious question of her possible survivability if she had been given full intensive care. Ms. Lowe rocked and sang to her, talked to her and rubbed her cheeks for 3 hours until she died. "I wanted her to feel that she was wanted. She was a perfectly formed newborn, entering the world too soon, through no choice of her own.

The baby's death certificate reinforces the tragedy of her short 1ife. The cause of death is listed as "extreme prematurity secondary to induced abortion," which is deemed a "natural" manner of death. She has no official first name and no social security number, and her life is succinctly described by the stark words "never married" and "never worked". She was cremated.

Health care workers at Bethesda Thrth Hospital are still feeling the effects of Baby Hope's death. "Staff who cared for her on the night of her birth have experienced a myriad of emotions," said Boyles, a registered nurse at the Hospital, in a statement released by Ohio Right to Life. "The emotional trauma inflicted on our department is deeper and will last longer than the physical railties that we deal with on a daily basis. Many hours have been devoted to staff counseling and 'venting' as a group and individually."

Lowe and Boyles decided to make the story public and be advocates for Baby Hope, to let people know that late-term babies like her are dying every day through partial-birth abortions -- but the babies are usually killed out of sight, in the "privacy" of abortion mills. Baby Hope "was a patient in our emergency department, a perfectly formed new-born, entering the world too soon, through no choice of her own," said Boyles. "She had no voice to tell us that she needed our help that early morning, because others had decided for her that she was worthless and removed her from the ultimate and perfect life support equipment -- her mothers' womb."

The workers are facing disapproval from other health professionals because they broke their profession's "code of silence" by speaking out about a case, according to Lehner. "Colleagues are shunning them for having talked," she said. "But they were so disturbed by this incident they needed to talk about it."

Pro-abortion groups responded to Baby Hope's life and death by attacking the nurses and pro lifers who brought the story to the public's attention, completely ignoring the little girl who died. "We are ... extremely concerned about the seeming disregard for this woman's confidentiality exhibited by hospital employees who went to Right to Life with this story", National Abortion Federation Executive Director Vicki Saporta said in an April 20 press release. "No woman should have to fear that her personal medical experience will be used as a tool by politicians and anti-choice organizations to further a political agenda." "Talking points" included with the press release described the incident as the "miscarriage of a 22-week nonviable fetus."

A spokeswoman for another pro-abortion group, Sue Momeyer, chief executive officer of Planned Parenthood of Southwest Ohio and Northern Kentucky, told the Associated Press, "I am concerned that what looks like a very difficult and tragic situation is being used for political purposes.

"Momeyer did not explain what she thought was 'tragic' about the 'situation'", said NRLC Legislative Director Douglas Johnson. "After all, an attempt was undertaken to kill Baby Hope through a partial-birth abortion, and Baby Hope did in fact die as a result -- so why does Planned Parenthood, which defends the right to unrestricted partial-birth abortion, use the word 'tragedy'? I suspect that in Planned Parenthood's view, the 'tragedy' is that Baby Hope had the bad taste to fight for life for three hours while others were watching, thereby reminding people of what 'abortion rights' really means."

In the wake of this tragedy, legislators on both the state and federal level called for renewed efforts to pass partial-birth abortion bans. In 1995, Ohio enacted a bill to restrict what it called "brain-suction abortion", intended to curb Dr Haskell's use of what later became known as partial-birth abortion. However, the bill was struck down in federal court in 1997. Subsequent attempts to place a national ban on "partial-birth abortions" were blocked twice at the federal level by President Clinton's vetoes, but have been enacted in a number of other states.

State Rep Jerry Luebbers issued a statement promising to introduce new legislation to ban the procedure in Ohio. "The tragedy of 'Baby Hope' should lead us to redouble our efforts to protect children from what amounts to a form of infanticide", Luebbers said. "To this end, I will soon be introducing a new bill to ban this inhumane partial-birth procedure in Ohio. I am confident that the great majority of Ohio's citizens don't want any child subjected to this brutality."

U.S. Sen Mike DeWine of Ohio called on Congress to pass the ban again despite two presidential vetoes. "Despite our best efforts, partial-birth abortions continue to occur in our own backyard", he said in a statement. "Once again, I am confident Congress will do the right thing and pass this very important bill. It is time to make this bill a law."

Babies at this same age -- 22-weeks -- can and have survived outside the womb. The difference that apparently led doctors to let Baby Hope die was that she was the product of a failed partial-birth abortion. What is gone wrong with a society that will permit the deliberate and fatal neglect of a living, breathing newborn? Have we grown so callous to the value of human life that we're willing to begin allowing our infants to die without care? This clearly crosses the line into infanticide -- just like the practice by the ancient Romans, who left their undesired babies out in the elements to die?

I realize had baby Hope survived, she would have likely had permanent damage and never lead a complete a normal life. Nevertheless, as breathing human out of the womb, she deserved the chance at life we all ask. At the very least, she deserved to die with dignity and without the anguished ending that she faced.
As I have noted before, I'm vehemently against the practice of how abortions are performed, especially those of late term, partial abortions; not in itself, abortions. I meant to post this during the original discussion, but got got distracted by my own emotions. Thanks for taking a moment to read this...O.K., I'm done

Rest in peace baby Hope, it warms my heart that your last moments were in that of loving arms.



http://www.pregnantpause.org/abort/babyhope.htm

[Jaded]

The owner of a South Florida clinic is behind bars, arrested because of a botched abortion.

Belkis Gonzalez, 43, was arrested for practicing health care without a license and for tampering with evidence.

This arrest is the result of a two and a half year long investigation.

Medical experts say this was not homicide, because the fetus was too young to survive; around 21-weeks-old and weighing just over a pound.

Gonzalez is already on probation for practicing health care without a license in Broward. She isn't the only one in trouble after this incident. The doctor who gave the woman a procedure to dilate her the day before showed up hours late for the abortion, well after she gave birth.

The Board of Medicine found him guilty of malpractice and took away his medical license.

http://cbs4.com/local/botched.aborti....2.949876.html

[Silvahalo]

Medical experts say this was not homicide, because the fetus was too young to survive; around 21-weeks-old and weighing just over a pound.

The medical experts are idiots. It is beside the fact that the fetus was 21 weeks old. As it was born, we all know this was a baby breathing, moving, struggling to live. Instead, it was thrown in caustic chemicals, sealed in a bag to die a most horrible death...done so with out second thoughts.

I do not care that he would likely not have survived. Are we saying we should make judgments on ones fate and decide survival is not likely so let him die??

What I do care about is the mere fact that those who are considering this case and placing punishment, do not see this as murder. It's a travesty and a disgrace on humanity.

[Peeperann]

Silvahalo, your hope for miracles and your ability to dream are two of the reasons you are a much better person than I am. Love you.

And that is two of the reasons I love Siva too!! She has the most amazing heart