When Police Break The Law

[Athena]

Not too long ago, we all heard about the BART officer who shot and killed an unarmed man. Despite the fact that the video clearly shows a frazzled officer who did not seem as though he intended to kill the man, he's been charged with MURDER. It's a politically-motivated overcompensation, in my opinion, solely intended to stave off public unrest.

Now, justapose that with a story like the following (video at the link). On New Year's Eve, Sam Salter was driving his minivan home along St. Paul's I-94 when flashing lights popped up behind him. Uncomfortable with stopping on the freeway, he drove a mile and turned off the freeway, looking for a safe place to pull over. That's when the pursuing officer, Patrol Sgt. Carrie Rindal, rammed Salter's van, causing $1,500 damage. Sam stopped immediately and exited the car to find out why the officer hit him.

Adding insult to injury, the officer arrested Salter at gunpoint for attempting to flee... In front of his three small children in the back seat.

Officer Rindal attempted to pull him over for an "unsafe lane change", stating that she witnessed him swerving within the lane and then changing lanes without a blinker. She also claimed he was going 70 in a 55. Gosh, kinda sounds like a drunk driver, doesn't it? Only problem is, tests showed Sam didn't have a drop of alcohol in his system, and it's highly unlikely that he would have been driving dangerously with his babies in the backseat. After all, this guy doesn't exactly look like a wild man -



He was arrested for fleeing, but those charges were dropped and he was released when the attorney's office found that there was "insufficient evidence to prove that the suspect was knowingly fleeing police."

So, here we've got a cop who severely overreacted, causing property damage and traumatizing children, and probably falsified the initial justification for pulling him over, to boot (happens all the time). To what degree should she be held responsible?

Should we do more to hold police accountable for the damage they cause?

[Dakota Valkyrie]

and probably falsified the initial justification for pulling him over, to boot (happens all the time).

You can view the unedited video at
http://www.startribune.com/local/389...nDaycUiacyKUUr

He did do an illegal lane change. While the speed is not on the video, I would guess that he was going 70. That area routinely goes 60-65 and he's passing folks. You can't hear when the siren starts but you can see the flash on the bumper from the lights. I also see plenty of spots he could have pulled over. I don't see that she had reason to think he would stop. Cap it off with some guy getting out of the car an yelling, how was she to know what to expect?

Do I think she over reacted? Probably. Was he over charged? Yes. Should the police pay for it? I dunno. Pretty much a case of mutual stupidity, if you ask me.

I wonder why he went to the media without filing a complaint with the police?

[Athena]

You can view the unedited video at
http://www.startribune.com/local/389...nDaycUiacyKUUr

He did do an illegal lane change. While the speed is not on the video, I would guess that he was going 70. That area routinely goes 60-65 and he's passing folks. You can't hear when the siren starts but you can see the flash on the bumper from the lights. I also see plenty of spots he could have pulled over. I don't see that she had reason to think he would stop. Cap it off with some guy getting out of the car an yelling, how was she to know what to expect?

Do I think she over reacted? Probably. Was he over charged? Yes. Should the police pay for it? I dunno. Pretty much a case of mutual stupidity, if you ask me.

I wonder why he went to the media without filing a complaint with the police?

While I can't watch any video, I'd imagine that he could have responded better. But, if there was not enough evidence for the attorney's office to charge him with fleeing (and they don't need much), I can't imagine how ramming the car could have been at all justified. Did she call for assistance at all?

I'm not even talking about a lawsuit. I just think that when police fuck up and overreact, they should pay for the damage they cause, like when they raid the wrong house and destroy property. In those cases, police rarely if ever pay for the damage.

I feel like we rarely hold law enforcement accountable and it seems like, as a result, when we do, we end up throwing someone under the bus (like the Bart officer).

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Since you have no video... LOL

He just kept going... past several spots that he could have easily pulled over. He came off the exit ramp and then made a right turn onto a side street. She caught him at the tail end of his turn - right at the corner. If I had not known that his intention was to stop there, I would have never guessed it from the video. It only looked as if he was making a sharp right.

He immediately hopped out of the car (right when he stopped - probably before the officer was even out of her car) and started gesturing and yelling "what are you doing?!!!". She yells at him to put hands up and he continues to yell as she orders him again. Finally he yells "I have 3 kids in the car".

This only took about 2 minutes, but when you are watching it, it seems like a long time.

The news video interviews former long-time Police Chief Tony Boza. He reviewed the tape and said the officer acted "entirely properly". The State Patrol (it was one of their officers) is reviewing the case... as they do in all cases where a pit maneuver has been used. They also said that if Salter feels he was unfairly treated he can report it to Internal Affairs which would launch a separate investigation by Department of Public Safety.

Also in the news video interview, he talks about how his 6 year old was freaking out in the back seat - screaming "Daddy, Daddy. What's happening?" and he had to calm her down. My question is, if all he was doing was calmly looking for a place to pull over, why was the kid freaking out? I suspect he was letting out other "noises" but is trying to make it look like he was the "good guy" in all this.

The officer acted as she thought appropriate for the situation. The DA disagreed with the charge. They are always dropping, adding, amending things. That's the way the system is supposed to work.

His car wasn't even that badly damaged. He's a whiner. Should the cops pay? Again, I don't know. Surely they have rules about that. I wouldn't.

In this case I think she acted with restraint... If I had been trying to pull someone over and they didn't stop, I would become suspicious. Jumping out of the car and being aggressive would have added to it. (cops can't read minds) He could have just as well been a gang banger with an uzi. If she worried about that, he would have a hole in him.

Yes, law enforcement should be held accountable. But we don't need the media making an iffy situation into an atrocity either.

[theskyisfalling]

So here is my two cents...
I watched your video DV. Yes, he was going fast and he did not signal to change lanes. Once the cop turned on her flashers you can see that he goes all the way to the far right hand lane and leaves his blinker on. I think this was to signify that he is going to pull over. He pulled over in a spot that he thought was safe and the cop rear ended him. He doesn't look belligerent just angry. Rightly so in my opinion. He had three kids in the car. I think he yelled that because he was upset that the officer could have hurt them. I think the officer over reacted.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I know exactly why he drove as he did and why he was yelling. But I see no reason for the trooper to know it.

She had no way to know that he didn't "feel safe". There were several places prior to the Highway 61 off ramp that he could have pulled over. All the officer knew was that he was not stopping. I closely watched the shoulder and in the time he was in the far right, there was plenty of room to pull over (plowed and clear) on Interstate 94 before he exited to Highway 61. At minimum, he could have slowed and continued on the shoulder.

Couple that with the YELLING and gesturing that he did immediately as he got out of the car, how was she to know he wasn't a crazed drugged up fool? He didn't even yell that he had kids in the car until after she TWICE ordered him to put his hands in the air. She had to do it twice because he was busy yelling.

If you get pulled over, most folks wait in the car for the officer to approach. You don't hop out and start going off on the officer.

[Athena]

I know exactly why he drove as he did and why he was yelling. But I see no reason for the trooper to know it.

Given the fact that he slowed and kept his blinker on, she should have known EXACTLY what he was doing. This is what police officers have recommended the general public do when they don't feel safe pulling over immediately. It really doesn't matter if there are places he passed that other people felt were appropriate. If it was after midnight on a slick evening with drunk drivers out and about, I'd want to get the hell of the freeway, too, if I had three little kids in the car. When it snowed in Seattle, we lost a few people as the result of traffic stops on slick highways.

She had no way to know that he didn't "feel safe". There were several places prior to the Highway 61 off ramp that he could have pulled over. All the officer knew was that he was not stopping.

In my experience, officers are not supposed to use tactics as aggressive as ramming a vehicle if the individual they pursue is not increasing speed. If things are different in Minnesota, I think that'd be a problem.

Couple that with the YELLING and gesturing that he did immediately as he got out of the car, how was she to know he wasn't a crazed drugged up fool? He didn't even yell that he had kids in the car until after she TWICE ordered him to put his hands in the air. She had to do it twice because he was busy yelling.

While his response was unadvisable, it's also beside the point. The damage had already been done, she had already responded aggressively, and she would have still arrested him for fleeing.

If you get pulled over, most folks wait in the car for the officer to approach. You don't hop out and start going off on the officer.

Most folks aren't rammed for trying to find a safe spot while traveling with three children before getting pulled over, either. But, yeah, he did respond badly.

[Athena]

They also said that if Salter feels he was unfairly treated he can report it to Internal Affairs which would launch a separate investigation by Department of Public Safety.

Which is worthless. Even when clearly justified, investigations, whether internal or by other public departments, almost NEVER finds fault with the officer in question. That's probably why he skipped "Go" and went straight to the media. If protocol is ramming a vehicle which has slowed significantly and is displaying an intention to pull over only a mile into the "chase", the public should be notified, as it is an area for concern. Public pressure works better than any internal investigation. The BART officer is proof of that.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

She was doing as she was trained. How long was she supposed to tail him until he felt "safe"? Most people would have pulled over on I-94 in the plowed, clear shoulder. Only once he exited onto 61 was the shoulder obstructed.

Troopers pull folks over 24/7 on that road (I-94). Because he acted out of the norm, she had no reason to think he was going to pull over. As I said, if I did not know his intention was to stop on Burns avenue, I would not have known he was stopping.

He's a histrionic sort. He himself got his kids all upset. He blew a gasket what most people would probably have just gotten out to assess damage (had it been a normal bump). He bitched to the media before even contacting the State Patrol about it. He even lied to the media when he said he pulled to the left to make room for the trooper with lights on. (He pulled to the left, she followed and some time later tried to pull him over.)

I think this is a case where there is doubt on both sides and he's being made a hero and she's being vilified. Neither of which is necessary.

[Athena]

She was doing as she was trained. How long was she supposed to tail him until he felt "safe"? Most people would have pulled over on I-94 in the plowed, clear shoulder. Only once he exited onto 61 was the shoulder obstructed.

Troopers pull folks over 24/7 on that road (I-94). Because he acted out of the norm, she had no reason to think he was going to pull over. As I said, if I did not know his intention was to stop on Burns avenue, I would not have known he was stopping.

These are the points I would contest. Are officers trained to ram under those circumstances? If they are, I'd say that's a problem. If she was that concerned about the guy in the minivan who slowed down and put his blinker on, I feel she should have called for backup rather than risked injury (to herself, to the criminal, to people and things on the street). It's my understanding that ramming is not your first option, even in high-speed chases.

Furthermore, I don't think simply being "out of the norm" justifies force. Our officers are humans with the gift of judgment. How he was out of the norm matters, and he was out of the norm in perhaps the most docile way possible, until he was rammed.

Yeah, the situation was iffy and this guy might be a ham, but I appreciate any scenario that applies scrutiny to an officer's use of force when other options may have been available. I'd rather not wait for someone to die as the result of excessive force to get the department to tell its officers to chill out a little.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I think she was chill. I didn't see anything that would have caused me to do different in the same position. Nothing I saw was excessive. What he's bitching about isn't the ramming but the fleeing charge and getting a gun pulled on him in front of his kids (which he totally deserved).

Even the article says "After Rindal rammed Salter's car -- a police tactic sometimes used for stopping fleeing vehicles -- he stopped abruptly and emerged from the van". He didn't look to be stopping and she had no reason to believe he was... he could have at least pulled to the shoulder and driven along on that instead of the driving lane.



She had no way to know what was going on in his mind and could only do what she was supposed to do. I have no idea if she called for backup of not. I could hear some radio traffic but not clearly. Even if she had, no other trooper would have been there in the short time this all occurred. It is a great luxury we have here to know that if you see a trooper going the opposite direction that you know there most likely won't be another on your side for a quite a while.

We'll agree to disagree on this. No way will convince each other LOL

[MichaelJCheaney]

Personally I think the "bump" was more of a I'll teach you to fuck with me more than anything....

I mean really, if she really thought that he was going to flee again, she would have hit him a lot harder...

Also if she felt that he was such a danger why did she not wait for back up to arrive? Both individuals were full of testosterone (She appears to have much more than a man, but thats a different issue all together)... but she put herself in a position where she VERY VERY easily could have been shot if he had a weapon.

Now whether or not he had kids in the car in my mind is irrelevant.

He should have figured that as soon as she "lit" him up that she was after him.-This is just common sense IMO-

Pull over, get the ticket, be on your way.

I place the blame at about 51-49 and would most likely side with the officer in this case....

[Pete Bondurant]

The officer acted correctly. This individual is a menace and probably also a communist. He should be prohibited from operating a motor vehicle and from voting as well.

[flawed_existence]

Yeah. What MJC said.

Lord. Petey. I just don't know what we're going to do with you. You're absolutely correct, of course. The dude is a godless fucking commie and should be put out of his misery.

Actually, I think Pete is agreeing with MJC. He just goes a bit to the extreme in attempting to prove his point.

I don't know. On one side, I understand that every time the police turn their lights on, they know they could be facing a deadly situation.

On the other side, didn't the police officer involved run the dude's tags? Unless the vehicle was reported stolen, she had every reason to believe that she was stopping a generally law abiding citizen.

By signaling his intent to turn, and NOT speeding up, the LE officer should (?) have been aware that the guy was going to pull over. If she felt otherwise, she should have called for assistance.

The guy SHOULD NOT have gotten out of his vehicle. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER get out of your vehicle. Once he did, the LE officer went into automatic defensive mode. Do you blame her?

Truthfully, I would have watched the driver a while longer before deciding to pull him over. When I'm messing with my iPod, phone, or just being ADD, I can be an erratic driver. Here in Tennessee, we don't use signals, as a rule. They're kind of a nuisance. (Tractors and horses don't have them, you know.) So, the driver not signaling his lane change isn't the end of the world.

I had my best friend, a 25 year Tennessee State Trooper look at the video. She agreed that the officer's response was more "fuck you, I'm the law" than was necessary (or smart).

I got pulled for dead tags about a week ago. I stopped ASAP and my little tiny girl hand was sticking out of the window holding my license, registration, and insurance card in full view BEFORE the Trooper ever got out of his car. It was dark and I didn't see any reason to make the dude nervous. I wanted him to see: Small hand. Stuff he wanted to see = no reason to be stressed out. (It was my son's car. He's an idiot.)

[Castille]

I wouldn't stop on an icy interstate shoulder in the dark with my kids either. I'd also want to exit the highway for my safety as well as the officer's. Of course I wouldn't jump out of the car to express my outrage to an officer crazy enough to hit it either. I'd probably lock the damn doors and call my local police department, lol.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

That was not an icy road. ;p There was snow but it was plowed back beyond the shoulders... the shoulders that other cars don't seem to have a problem with pulling over on to (as the laws says to do).

[chatdenuit]

I guess what worries me about this situation is that I had heard that it's okay to find an appropriate place to pull over. Maybe this was just a local thing, but a few years back I remember hearing a lot about men imitating police and using flashing lights to pull women over to assault them. So, at the time, I was advised that it is acceptable to slow down, signal that you're going to pull over, and then wait for a place that's well lit and public to do so. I don't want to get a real officer pissed off at me because I'm afraid he might just be a psycho rapist.

[Castille]

That was not an icy road. ;p There was snow but it was plowed back beyond the shoulders... the shoulders that other cars don't seem to have a problem with pulling over on to (as the laws says to do).

While the shoulders are cleared and the road itself looked dry, the shoulder looked black, and I'd hazard ice. But that really wasn't the point. For me, the point would be stopping in a better lit, populated place. He right there on the exit ramp, and that's about the last place I'd stop in terms of it's dark isolation. But then again, he's a man, and his thought process isn't the same. Still, if I did it, I wouldn't want my kid-hauling minivan rammed.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I can understand that, but this was on a well traveled interstate in a major metro area. I would feel safer there than the side streets of the city.

I would feel more for the guy if he had at least driven on the shoulder while he went to "feel safe".

[Dakota Valkyrie]

While the shoulders are cleared and the road itself looked dry, the shoulder looked black, and I'd hazard ice.

Shoulders are generally black. Road is concrete and shoulders are asphalt. As a Minnesots driver (he was from Hudson WI but less than 20 miles from home) he know that. If you look at the video there were a minimum of 20 lights per mile on 94.