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Thread: Israel Vs. Palestine

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Unhappy Israel Vs. Palestine



    UN: 257 Palestinian children killed in Gaza

    GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Tiny bodies lying side by side wrapped in white burial shrouds. The cherubic face of a dead preschooler sticking up from the rubble of her home. A man cradling a wounded boy in a chaotic emergency room after Israel shelled a U.N. school.

    Children, who make up more than half of crowded Gaza's 1.4 million people, are the most defenseless victims of the war between Israel and Hamas. The Israeli army has unleashed unprecedented force in its campaign against Hamas militants, who have been taking cover among civilians.

    A photo of 4-year-old Kaukab Al Dayah, just her bloodied head sticking out from the rubble of her home, covered many front pages in the Arab world Wednesday. "This is Israel," read the headline in the Egyptian daily Al-Masry Al-Youm. The preschooler was killed early Tuesday when an F-16 attacked her family's four-story home in Gaza City. Four adults also died.
    (More at the link.)

    Do you support one side over another? If so, why?

    Personally, I struggle with the issue. I believe in Israel's right to exist. They've been there for half a century, now, and they're backed up by the baddest mofos on the planet. Arab countries are just going to have to get over themselves. They also have the definite right to defend their nation and civilians. Rockets being shot over the border is not cool.

    The question for me is, to what extent? At what point does defense turn into aggression? When I watch the evening news and hear that 5 Israelis died but, in retaliation, 300 Palestinians died, I don't really know how to feel about it, especially when children are taking such a big hit.

    Palestinians should expell Hamas from their population and CERTAINLY from their government. But is it okay to slaughter them in the meantime?
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    This is how I view it,

    Some folks are homeless so the government steps in and say you have to give up half your house and these people can now live in it. You object....you paid for this house and your family has been living in it for hundreds of years. So sorry they say, these guys need a home.

    So in they move and then they start moving into the rooms that were designated yours by the government in the first place. So you use force to remove them....the government tells you that you have no right fighting for this place....these are homeless people afterall, where's your compassion? You throw a rock and they in turn use a tank. Still the government states these people have a right to this territory because well...they were homeless and you have a home...share already. Others are in this same predicament and some of them are basically edged out of their home...there is no legal recourse and the youth are extremely disenfranchised and angered. So what do they do? With no legal means of retribution they start to strap bombs onto themselves and attack with the only thing left in their arsenal. Is it right? No, but it becomes understandable.

    Now almost a thousand Palestenians are dead and about a dozen Israelis. And they say they are doing the Palestenians a favor by texting where they are dropping the bombs so they can run away....but to where? Gaza is the most densely populated area on the planet...no thanks to them being shoe horned into smaller and smaller areas by the Israelis.And the borders ahve been closed by the Isrealis as well. So why some think they should "get over themselves" I think it high time the Israelis should get over themselves and I don't know, maybe give back what they've stolen.

    I have friends from Palestine and the way they are treated by armed Israeli soldiers is truly dispicable. Many Palestenians die at check points because the soldiers will not let an ambulance through. Many Palestenians give birth at checkpoints because they will not ley an obviously laboring woman through. And they do this because they can, not because they have to.

    What I see is the "ethnic cleansing" of the Palestenians and the world standing idly by in silence. And if anyone dare speak against it they will be accused of being antisemetic..which is ironic given that Arabs are semites. My POV, take it for what it's worth.

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HijabiGirl View Post
    I think it high time the Israelis should get over themselves and I don't know, maybe give back what they've stolen.
    What, exactly, do you see as being stolen by the Israelis? Their entire territory? Just Gaza and the West Bank?

    The fact of the matter is, ethnic populations settle and concentrate themselves in foreign lands all the time. It's not uncommon for those lands to break off. It's not always right, necessarily, but at what point does the original nation give up trying to reclaim its land? Israel declared independence 60 years ago.

    I believe there should be a two-nation agreement that definitively establishes the Gaza Strip and the West Bank as Palestinian territories. But Palestinians didn't exactly do themselves any favors by voting Hamas into government.

    What solution would make you happy?
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    Israel is still taking land that belongs to the Palestenians. They set up housing within Palestenian territory and basically told the populace to bite them when they objected. So that's what I mean by giving back what they stole.

    I think they should stop making illegal arrests and holding Palestenians without charges indefinitely. Amnesty International has stated that Israel has been committing human rights violations against the Palestenians for some time now. The use of force against civilians in Palestine is horrific and I don't think anything can justify it. There needs to be some accountability here. A unarmed, bound Palestenian can be shot in the head right now and there is no one to answer to in this case. So there needs to be an international accountability since Israel does not seem interested in keeping tabs on their own killers.

    Hamas was elected democratically and while I think that was a bad move I really don't see what the other options were. They don't exactly have the means to form any decent government right now while under the oppressive heel of Israel.

    I think that there should be two states but I think both should be held accountable. As it stands now Israel has incredible monetary,religious, and military support from the US. So of course the picture is very skewed when the media presents it. Almost a thousand Palestenians dead and 35% of them are children...if this were happening anywhere else there would be outrage over Israel's actions. And I think Israel should have to remain in their borders and not keep encroaching on what little land the Palestenians have left. I also think they should be allowed medical, food, and monetary support.

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    Saving Matches Since 1981 Spitfire77's Avatar
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    From Wikipedia under the current status portion.

    Following the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the 1949 Armistice Agreements between Israel and neighboring Arab states eliminated Palestine as a distinct territory. With the establishment of Israel, the remaining lands were divided amongst Egypt, Syria and Jordan. The Arab governments at this point refused to set up a State of Palestine.

    There are various illustrations of proposed Palestinian lands. But in the 1949 Armistice Agreement, remaining lands that were not given to Israel were given to neighboring Arab states. They did not want to set up a Palestinian state at that time, and it's all Israel's fault? I think that Israel should stick to the lines drawn in that agreement and not encroach upon the Palestinian territory, but I also feel that Hamas shooting rockets into Israel should be met with return force.

    This is just my opinion. I'm not extremely educated on the subject (just what I've read here and there), so take it for what you will.

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HijabiGirl View Post
    Israel is still taking land that belongs to the Palestenians. They set up housing within Palestenian territory and basically told the populace to bite them when they objected. So that's what I mean by giving back what they stole.

    I think they should stop making illegal arrests and holding Palestenians without charges indefinitely. Amnesty International has stated that Israel has been committing human rights violations against the Palestenians for some time now. The use of force against civilians in Palestine is horrific and I don't think anything can justify it. There needs to be some accountability here. A unarmed, bound Palestenian can be shot in the head right now and there is no one to answer to in this case. So there needs to be an international accountability since Israel does not seem interested in keeping tabs on their own killers.

    Hamas was elected democratically and while I think that was a bad move I really don't see what the other options were. They don't exactly have the means to form any decent government right now while under the oppressive heel of Israel.

    I think that there should be two states but I think both should be held accountable. As it stands now Israel has incredible monetary,religious, and military support from the US. So of course the picture is very skewed when the media presents it. Almost a thousand Palestenians dead and 35% of them are children...if this were happening anywhere else there would be outrage over Israel's actions. And I think Israel should have to remain in their borders and not keep encroaching on what little land the Palestenians have left. I also think they should be allowed medical, food, and monetary support.
    That's plenty reasonable, although I can certainly understand Israel's tendency to overreact to attacks, considering a good chunk of the Arab world, including Hamas, refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist. But you're absolutely right - Israel's forced settlements need to stop immediately.

    I'm also very disappointed with the U.S. for refusing to tighten the leash on Israel. We fund them. They have very little bargaining leverage. The U.S. has the means to dramatically change the circumstances in the conflict, yet we won't even join the call for a ceasefire. It's quite frustrating, and I don't care what anyone says - religion is only the vehicle supporting the terror attacks on the U.S. The cause is our foreign policy.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

  11. #7
    Count CPL CHUD's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what to think about this. It's so hard keeping tabs on who did what to whom and why that it just seems like vengeance being struck back and forth on both sides with no end in sight. Maybe we should sit on our hands and let both of these countries exhaust their resources by endlessly attacking each other. Give no aid to either of them and only step in after one is the clear victor of the other to prevent any further human rights violations.

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    I shudder to think what the Palestinians would do if they had their own nation. What the Palestinians really want is this: every Jewish man, woman and child...dead. That is it. They will not stop firing rockets or sending their sons and daughters on suicide missions until that goal is accomplished. There was a two-state solution in 1948 and the Arab world rejected it. Yassir Arafat did the same decades later. I have no sympathy for the Palestinians. The simple solution is this: resettle the Palestinans in Sudan. Let the Jews have the West Bank and Gaza to themselves. Then the Palestinians can focus on killing black African Christians in Darfur instead of Israeli schoolgirls eating lunch in pizzerias.

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    Grand Count DarkPrincess's Avatar
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    I say stop supporting Israel. That's why we were attacked in the first place. We need to focus on fixing issues in our own country and stay out of other people's wars. They've been fighting forever now and they'll go on fighting until the end of time.

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DarkPrincess View Post
    I say stop supporting Israel. That's why we were attacked in the first place. We need to focus on fixing issues in our own country and stay out of other people's wars.
    Other people's wars always have a way of hitting you in the ass, no matter how hard a nation may try to avoid them.

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Grand Count DarkPrincess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    Other people's wars always have a way of hitting you in the ass, no matter how hard a nation may try to avoid them.
    Very true.

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    Grand Marshal flawed_existence's Avatar
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    It is unusual for me to post on a topic that I'm not reasonably well versed in, but this one has been heavy on my heart today. I'm ashamed that I don't understand the Israel/Palestine issues better. God knows, they've been going on since before I was born.

    Pete's right. (OMG, did I say that?) He's right in the comment he made that other people's wars have a way of becoming our problem. When people are dying as a result of warfare, then I believe it IS our problem. At the same time, DarkPrincess is saying the exact same thing I've often heard. I would like nothing better than to mind my own business. But is that the right thing to do? I believe in a definitive right and wrong. I don't believe every situation is "relative". So if we, "we" being the rest of the world, can assist the two parties in finding a mutually agreed upon position, then "we" must do so. But it seems so hopeless in this case.

    And, too, there are far "worse" (in terms of casualties) wars raging on our planet, but I don't see us or anybody else getting bent out of shape over them. Is it because we don't see ourselves in the faces of the dead? Or because we just don't CARE about the plight of the many Africans dying in cruel ways just because some warlord decided he wants to run things?

    I have to say that the poverty, famine, war, disease, and cruelty toward women that I see in so many countries around the world makes me grateful to live in the US. I may complain and bitch about our government, but I know how lucky I am. I wish everyone, all 6 billion + of us, could have the standard of living that we enjoy here.

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    EAT THIS, RAGHEADS!
    Last edited by Pete Bondurant; January 11th, 2009 at 03:22 PM.

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    Can Israel Survive Its Assault on Gaza?

    I don't know where I stand or what to believe in this situation. It would take the wisdom of King Solomon to figure it out. I can see both sides.

    As Israeli troops encircle Gaza City, their commanders are faced with a painful dilemma: How far must they advance into the deadly labyrinth of slums and refugee camps where Hamas militants await with booby-trapped houses and snipers? With each passing day, Israel's war against Hamas grows riskier and more punishing, with the gains appearing to diminish compared to the spiraling costs — to Israel's moral stature, to the lives of Palestinian civilians and to the world's hopes that an ancient conflict can ever be resolved. Ideally, in a war shaped by television images, Israelis would like a tableau of surrender: grimy Hamas commanders crawling from underground bunkers with their hands up. Instead, the deaths of at least 40 civilians taking shelter at a United Nations–run school north of Gaza City are more likely to become the dominant image of the war. Israeli politicians and generals know that the total elimination of Hamas' entrenched military command could take weeks; it might be altogether impossible. The more realistic outcome is an unsatisfactory, brokered truce that leaves Hamas wounded but alive and able to regenerate — and Israel only temporarily safe from attack.

    Israel's Defense Minister, Ehud Barak, has promised a "war to the bitter end." But after 60 years of struggle to defend their existence against foreign threats and enemies within, many Israelis may be wondering, Where does that end lie? The threat posed by Hamas is only the most immediate of the many interlocking challenges facing Israel, some of which cast dark shadows over the long-term viability of a democratic Jewish state. The offensive in Gaza may degrade Hamas' ability to menace southern Israel with rocket fire, but, as with Israel's 2006 war against Hizballah, the application of force won't extinguish the militants' ideological fervor. The anti-Israeli anger swelling in the region has made it more difficult for Arab governments to join Israel in its efforts to deal with Iran, the patron of both Hamas and Hizballah and a state whose leaders have sworn to eliminate Israel and appear determined to acquire nuclear weapons. (See pictures of grief in the Middle East.)

    Just as ominous for many Israelis is a ticking demographic time bomb: the likelihood that Arabs will vastly outnumber Jews in the land stretching from the Jordan River to the Mediterranean is a catastrophic prospect for a nation that defines itself by its faith. At some point, Israelis will have to choose between living with an independent Palestinian state or watching Jews become a minority in their own land.

    As much as any other nation on earth, Israel is based on a dream: the aspiration to establish a home for the Jews in the birthplace of their ancestors. To a remarkable extent, that dream has been fulfilled, as Israel has grown into the most modern and democratic country in the Middle East and a dependable American ally. A strong, confident Israel is in America's interest, but so is one that can find peace with its neighbors, cooperate with the Arabs to contain common threats and, most important, reach a just and lasting solution with the Palestinians. But accomplishing all that will require Israel and its defenders to confront excruciating dilemmas: How do you make peace with those who don't seem to want it? How do you win a war when the other side believes time is on its side? And what would true security, in a hostile neighborhood populated with enemies, actually look like? As is always true in the Middle East, there are no easy answers. But it's never been more vital that Israel start looking for them.

    How to Deal with Hamas
    The most immediate challenge facing Israel is that posed by Hamas. Gaza's tragedy has for days been playing out on the world's TV sets. By Jan. 7, more than 700 Palestinians, many of them noncombatants, had been killed. But there's something tragic, too, in Israel's predicament: in any confrontation with its enemies, it is damned if it does and doomed if it doesn't. Across Israel's political spectrum there seems to be a consensus that Hamas' provocative rocket barrages could not go unanswered — though whether Israel's response has been proportional to the threat is, at the least, questionable.
    continued at link

    http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...870314,00.html

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Ream Me Up, Scotty swivel's Avatar
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    Great thread. I think HijabiGirl does an excellent job of voicing the Palestinian side of the argument.

    A few of my opinions on the history of this conflict:
    • The Jews are good at making money.
    • The Jews have been run out of Israel for a damned long time, and keep seeking refuge there after being run out of the other places they have sought refuge.
    • It seems, therefore that nobody likes the Jews. There is even evidence, judging by the disparaging remarks made by Jewish comedians, authors, and filmmakers, that most Jews don't even like themselves.
    • It is hard to imagine that everyone on the planet is wrong about the Jews.
    • Therefore there must be something about the Jews which brings on trouble. (Perhaps related to my first point)
    • After WWII the Jews seem to have had just about enough of this trouble, however justified.
    • Using their ability to make money, the Jews bought some of the good stuff left over from the campaign to prevent them from being exterminated.
    • When the stupid Muslims attacked them for being recognized by the UN, they whooped some serious ass using these nice, expensive left-overs.
    • Muslims can't take this loss of face, and the growing evidence that the Jewish God is badder than their Muslim God.
    • Not having enough pussy to chase, the Muslims keep their women under wraps, kill their own female relatives out of jealously when someone else gets a little Muslim ass, and then hang around in jobless packs of riff-raff trying to figure out how to take out their sexual frustrations on those Jews with their hawtness Jewess bitches.
    • The Jews always hit BACK harder than they were hit, which cycles the last several steps.


    I will pledge my support to the side that rejects their hate-filled religion first. Right now I lean a little toward the Israeli side, since the only thing Jews have taken away from me is "The Road Warrior Part 4", while the Muslims have made it scary to visit about a third of the planet.

    If the Palestinian rag-heads had a lick of sense, they would alter their strategy a bit. Look at what the Jews did, they played the poor, pitiful bit for 3,000 years. That sacrifice now lets them have their way in the world, even though most people still hate them. If the Palestinians would STOP WITH THE ROCKETS AND RETARDED-LADY-BOMBS the world would take their side and give them whatever they fucking wanted. Including, I suspect, their supreme desire which is the extermination of the Jews. Look at how hard Hitler and Stalin tried to help out there. All you have to do is play the victim for awhile. The bleeding-heart liberals will take your side because they celebrate incompetence and poverty. Hell, they are already on your side today, even though you are obviously a bunch of women-hating faggots fueled by a mad religious lust to bomb everyone into the most conservative of stone-ages. If you can get the Left to love you like this, just think of what you would have if you stopped being a bunch of ignorant, smelly assholes!
    Last edited by swivel; January 11th, 2009 at 06:32 PM.

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  29. #18
    Enigmatic Motherfucker Morbid's Avatar
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    I will pledge my support to the side that rejects their hate-filled religion first. Right now I lean a little toward the Israeli side, since the only thing Jews have taken away from me is "The Road Warrior Part 4", while the Muslims have made it scary to visit about a third of the planet.
    Wow. You just made my signature.

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    Ream Me Up, Scotty swivel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morbid View Post
    Wow. You just made my signature.
    Cool. The last time I made your sig it was me pledging to suck you off or something equally crude and delicious.

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    Malignant Narcissist brokenandtwisted's Avatar
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    lol @ this war. Look where religion has gotten us...

    Israeli Rights Groups Call for War Crimes Inquiry

    Published: January 14, 2009

    JERUSALEM — Nine Israeli human rights groups called on Wednesday for an investigation into whether Israeli officials had committed war crimes in Gaza since tens of thousands of civilians there have nowhere to flee, the health system has collapsed, many are without electricity and running water, and some are beyond the reach of rescue teams., including 10 soldiers.

    “This kind of fighting constitutes a blatant violation of the laws of warfare and raises the suspicion, which we ask be investigated, of the commission of war crimes,” the groups said in their first news conference on the 19-day-old war.

    Continued

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  34. #21
    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    It's good to see Israeli's trying to hold their own leaders accountable, although I'm not sure that it'll amount to anything.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    It's good to see Israeli's trying to hold their own leaders accountable, although I'm not sure that it'll amount to anything.
    What are they supposed to be held accountable for....defending their citizens from Hamas rockets?

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  37. #23
    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    What are they supposed to be held accountable for....defending their citizens from Hamas rockets?
    Hardly. But trapping innocent civilians like animals while doing so, resulting in especially high numbers of child casualites, is not cool. Just HOW unequal do the numbers of casualties need to become before defense is no longer defense? Does such a point exist?
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    Hardly. But trapping innocent civilians like animals while doing so, resulting in especially high numbers of child casualites, is not cool. Just HOW unequal do the numbers of casualties need to become before defense is no longer defense? Does such a point exist?
    It is Hamas that is intentionally using children as human shields. It is Hamas that is using schools and mosques to hide weapons and fighters. They have been duly warned by the Iraelis. Israel is dealing with a population that seem to relish the death of their own children.

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    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant View Post
    It is Hamas that is intentionally using children as human shields. It is Hamas that is using schools and mosques to hide weapons and fighters. They have been duly warned by the Iraelis. Israel is dealing with a population that seem to relish the death of their own children.
    While I would normally sympathize with that perspective, Israel gives up that particular defense when they seal the borders.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    The Shakedown King Pete Bondurant's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    While I would normally sympathize with that perspective, Israel gives up that particular defense when they seal the borders.
    This occurred after Hamas started firing rockets.
    Last edited by Pete Bondurant; January 14th, 2009 at 06:33 PM. Reason: There are two R's in occurrrrrrrrrrrrrred, you bastards!

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    Ream Me Up, Scotty swivel's Avatar
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    Why don't we sell weapons to both sides and get our country out of debt?

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  45. #28
    Count CPL CHUD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swivel View Post
    Why don't we sell weapons to both sides and get our country out of debt?
    At least it would speed things up until the loss of life on either side signaled surrender and a clear victor would be declared. We shouldn't step in the middle of these things and cause festering resentment by forcing peace. We should just work to contain the violence to that region.

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  47. #29
    Buzzkill. Athena's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swivel View Post
    Why don't we sell weapons to both sides and get our country out of debt?
    Donating to one side is helping to put our country in debt. I'd be okay with that, though - cut off aid to Israel and let both sides purchase arms from us...

    I fear Israel wouldn't last long, though. The rich Arab countries that already support terrorism would pour funds into Palestine. Would the European countries do the same for Israel? Somehow, I doubt it.
    "Now that ceaseless exposure has calloused us to the lewd and the vulgar, it is instructive to see what still seems wicked to us. What still slaps the clammy flab of our submissive consciousness hard enough to get our attention?"

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    Ream Me Up, Scotty swivel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athena View Post
    I fear Israel wouldn't last long, though. The rich Arab countries that already support terrorism would pour funds into Palestine. Would the European countries do the same for Israel? Somehow, I doubt it.
    I don't know... those Jews put up a vicious fight. They've been outnumbered and outgunned in the past and defended themselves well.

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