"Would YOU Have Been A Nazi?"

**Ruby** · January 9th, 2009, 02:23 PM

Seriously, CPL? Where you reading your history?

When Hitler came to power in 1933, Jewish organizations around the world protested, and did indeed announce/organize a trade boycott of Germany. You're damned right they did! But don't think that is what started Hitler's war on the Jews. The reason for the boycotts? Adolf Hitler's clearly articulated beliefs about Jews and race and Germany's future.

Have you read Mein Kampf? That was dictated in 1923, for pete's sake. I suggest you read it. There's far too much within those covers for me to deal with it all here, but everyone should read it at least once in their lives if you wish to understand the evil that men do.

In 1922, Hitler was asked in an interview what he would do if he ever had full freedom of action against the Jews. His response?

"If I am ever really in power, the destruction of the Jews will be my first and most important job. As soon as I have power, I shall have gallows after gallows erected, for example, in Munich on the Marienplatz-as many of them as traffic allows. Then the Jews will be hanged one after another, and they will stay hanging until they stink. They will stay hanging as long as hygienically possible. As soon as they are untied, then the next group will follow and that will continue until the last Jew in Munich is exterminated. Exactly the same procedure will be followed in other cities until Germany is cleansed of the last Jew!" (quoted in John Toland, Adolf Hitler. London: Book Club Associates, 1977, p.116)

By 1930, though Hitler had no legitimate power, his SA brownshirts stormed the Potsdamerplatz and destroyed the Jewish-owned shops there. This was the first "organized" attack on Jewish interests in Germany.

My point? By the time Hitler's power was consolidated/legitimized in 1933, the world knew full well that it did not bode well for the Jews of Germany. Jewish organizations worldwide attempted to organize boycotts to draw attention to the potential dangers before it was too late. Obviously, they failed.

And you are a sick fuck if you can sit there at your keyboard and speak of concentration camp details being exagerrated. If only 1/1,000,000 of what was documented was true, it would be more than any of us should ever have to witness or live with. But that's not the case. See, there are a couple of factors at work here:

1. The German military machine was meticulous in its record-keeping. The perpetrators themselves documented the vast majority of their crimes.
2. Photography and moving pictures had both become portable, convenient, and practical by the time of WWII, so everything was visually documented on an unprecedented scale.

It happened. And no amount of revisionist history from the likes of you will change that fact.

**CPL CHUD** · January 9th, 2009, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Ruby

When Hitler came to power in 1933, Jewish organizations around the world protested, and did indeed announce/organize a trade boycott of Germany. You're damned right they did! But don't think that is what started Hitler's war on the Jews. The reason for the boycotts? Adolf Hitler's clearly articulated beliefs about Jews and race and Germany's future.

I've never denied that the atrocities committed against Jewish people all over Europe to be anything less than unsettling and in many cases blatantly horrific nor did I address any of Hitler's beliefs (for the record I have a worn out copy of Mein Kampf sitting on the top of my book shelf). You claim pride in your reading ability but have failed to even properly address my short post. Seems ironic.

It's not revisionist to suggest that the Jewish people were wrong for targeting an entire population of people for the writings and belief of one man who just came to power (and not even the full power over the government and armed forces he later ceased) and hadn't forced any restrictions of any kind on any of the Jewish people; nor is it revisionist to suggest that hatred doesn't merely spawn from a void. There is precedence. You can't rally people to hate a minority on the scale that the German people hated the Jews without attacks being fired from both sides, and both sides were extremist (as you probably know, or glossed over, is the fact that there were several parties of communist Jews battling with the Nazis over control of Germany, you really think the communists would have treated the country any differently?). Nobody was fully innocent, the Zionists actually corresponded with the Nazis to put even more pressure on the Jews to immigrate to Israel.

I like to examine the full story to find the truth lying somewhere in the meaty curve between extremities. "Objectivity" isn't merely a word for me to toss around when it suits me, it's a practice in all cases.

**Silvahalo** · January 9th, 2009, 03:09 PM

Duplicate post.

**Silvahalo** · January 9th, 2009, 03:13 PM

It is human nature to do things you thought you might never do if you were put in a life and death situation and pushed to extremes.

I wouldn't have been given a choice. I am not white so I would have been lumped up with the rest of the non-white groups and killed. I can tell you though, had I an opportunity to save me and my family over a stranger, example another child, (Lord I hope not a child), yes, I would save my family first. It would kill me inside but I would do it if necessary, if I had to make a choice.

I am certain I would NEVER turn against my own beliefs and morals to be spared by a damned soul and by those that follow him. They might hate me, torture me, then kill me but they could never take my dignity and faith away.

Think what you may but vile creatures like Hitler will get their due in hell...that I believe with every fiber in my heart and soul.

NO, I would never have been a Nazi.

**~Absynthe~** · January 9th, 2009, 03:16 PM

no I wouldnt have been a natzi

**Ruby** · January 9th, 2009, 03:26 PM

First off, you'll notice I didn't groan you for your initial post, though I despised it. So, um, thanks for the groan.

Originally Posted by CPL CHUD

I've never denied that the atrocities committed against Jewish people all over Europe to be anything less than unsettling and in many cases blatantly horrific nor did I address any of Hitler's beliefs (for the record I have a worn out copy of Mein Kampf sitting on the top of my book shelf). You claim pride in your reading ability but have failed to even properly address my short post. Seems ironic.

I know you did not address Hitler's beliefs. My point was that the boycotts arranged by various Jewish organizations in other countries were arranged because his beliefs and intentions were well-documented, even then. They were in direct response to a threat.

Originally Posted by CPL CHUD

It's not revisionist to suggest that the Jewish people were wrong for targeting an entire population of people for the writings and belief of one man who just came to power (and not even the full power over the government and armed forces he later ceased) and hadn't forced any restrictions of any kind on any of the Jewish people; nor is it revisionist to suggest that hatred doesn't merely spawn from a void. There is precedence. You can't rally people to hate a minority on the scale that the German people hated the Jews without attacks being fired from both sides, and both sides were extremist (as you probably know, or glossed over, is the fact that there were several parties of communist Jews battling with the Nazis over control of Germany, you really think the communists would have treated the country any differently?). Nobody was fully innocent, the Zionists actually corresponded with the Nazis to put even more pressure on the Jews to immigrate to Israel.

I like to examine the full story to find the truth lying somewhere in the meaty curve between extremities. "Objectivity" isn't merely a word for me to toss around when it suits me, it's a practice in all cases.

Many Jews had been early leaders in the KPD during its formative years. Through a series of splits and purges, there were very few Jews in power in the KPD by the end of the Weimar years. What the Communists might or might not have done with control of Germany I don't pretend to know. But I believe it could not have been worse than what followed.

Further, yes, I do think that a trade embargo/boycott against an entire nation is an extremely valid way to get the attention of the world when there is concern about the direction of a nation. Absolutely.

Finally -- and most importantly -- to ascribe genocide as being attributable to the people upon whom it was perpetrated (as you have done in your post quoted above) is vile and reprehensible. And with that, I suppose there is nothing further for you and I to discuss.

**Dakota Valkyrie** · January 9th, 2009, 03:37 PM

I know this sounds very "old lady" but I have over 30 years of adulthood to look back on and there is just no way to say it without sounding like an old lady LOL...

When I look back on my life, I can see many things that I believed at the time that I have since changed my mind about. Nothing so important as being a Nazi, but several that involved nearly 180 degree turns in thought.

Some things changed because of initial misinformation and my not looking closely to the "other side". Some changed because situations changed that forced me into viewing another side. Other things I just changed my mind about because I can (meaning I don't know why but I did).

Taking away any hindsight and using just what I know about myself, I would not have willingly become a Nazi. I would have done it to "protect" myself and my loved ones until we could escape. Minimal participation to create an appearance as needed. If I could do it and not jeopardize family, I would be a subversive of some sort.

However, when I squelch the self raised in today's society, I think I may have become a Nazi and believed it if the reasons and logic seemed valid. I'd need a much beeter understanding of the times to say for sure. I have too many "what the hell I was I thinking?" moments in my life to think otherwise.

**CPL CHUD** · January 9th, 2009, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by Ruby

Finally -- and most importantly -- to ascribe genocide as being attributable to the people upon whom it was perpetrated (as you have done in your post quoted above) is vile and reprehensible.

Not as reprehensible as attempting to vilify someone else by putting words into their mouth. If you wanted to argue against nonexistent stances you would have done better by creating another account and posting them with that. At least it'd be real.

**Athena** · January 9th, 2009, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by silvahalo68

It is human nature to do things you thought you might never do if you were put in a life and death situation and pushed to extremes.

I wouldn't have been given a choice. I am not white so I would have been lumped up with the rest of the non-white groups and killed.

It's helpful to read more than the title of a thread before responding.

The question, "Would YOU have been a Nazi?" was figurative. The Nazis were a specific example of hundreds of thousands of regular people who did unspeakable in the name of authority. But the same thing has happened in lots of places - China, Russia, Cambodia, several African nations, even right here in the good ol' U S of A.

In this experiment, 65% of volunteers "shocked people to death" (or so they thought) without any fear of punishment for refusing. No life or death situation. In fact, they were repeatedly told that they could quit any time.

It's got greater implications, in my opinion. The results of the experiment essentially illustrate that roughly 65% of the population is so prone to obediance that they will base their actions on the opinion or instruction of anyone they perceive to be legit. That freaks me out.

**Dakota Valkyrie** · January 9th, 2009, 03:55 PM

fucked up new computer. nevermind

**Athena** · January 9th, 2009, 04:01 PM

Did you get a new computer already? That was quick!

**Dakota Valkyrie** · January 9th, 2009, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Athena

In this experiment, 65% of volunteers "shocked people to death" (or so they thought) without any fear of punishment for refusing. No life or death situation. In fact, they were repeatedly told that they could quit any time.

It's got greater implications, in my opinion. The results of the experiment essentially illustrate that roughly 65% of the population is so prone to obediance that they will base their actions on the opinion or instruction of anyone they perceive to be legit. That freaks me out.

I know you weren't talking to me but whatever LOL...

Exactly why I posed my answer as I think I know how i would behave, but when things seem like OK with "society" (or the teacher) and i can't come up with alternate vision on my own, I am a lemming and will go with the flow.

I like to think I'm not a lemming but I've caught myself doing it too many times so i must do it when I'm not thinking.

**Dakota Valkyrie** · January 9th, 2009, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Athena

Did you get a new computer already? That was quick!

Staples. Bozeman, MT. I was going into withdrawal so my kids rented a wheelchair and took me to get fixed. (OK, not quite that bad LOL)

**Athena** · January 9th, 2009, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Dakota_Valkyrie

Exactly why I posed my answer as I think I know how i would behave, but when things seem like OK with "society" (or the teacher) and i can't come up with alternate vision on my own, I am a lemming and will go with the flow.

I like to think I'm not a lemming but I've caught myself doing it too many times so i must do it when I'm not thinking.

Oh, I know. Me, personally? It's hard to say. On one hand, I thrive in structured environments and, with no authority *issues*, I might easily be classified as "obediant". In a pinch, I have been known to rely on the opinions of those I deem intellectually superior to myself. So, certainly, the potential is there.

That said, I do rely as heavily as possible on objectivity, especially as it relates to morality. In my experience, I have found myself inherently resistant to peer pressure, for example. The circumstances that would allow me to justify harming another human are few and far between, and simply being asked to isn't among them.

Ultimately, I believe that my potential to harm others relies much more heavily on my perception of what is right than who is telling me. However, in the absence of an ability to draw an independent conclusion, I may be subject to the whims of some evil genius.

**Silvahalo** · January 9th, 2009, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Athena

It's helpful to read more than the title of a thread before responding.

The question, "Would YOU have been a Nazi?" was figurative. The Nazis were a specific example of hundreds of thousands of regular people who did unspeakable in the name of authority. But the same thing has happened in lots of places - China, Russia, Cambodia, several African nations, even right here in the good ol' U S of A.

In this experiment, 65% of volunteers "shocked people to death" (or so they thought) without any fear of punishment for refusing. No life or death situation. In fact, they were repeatedly told that they could quit any time.

It's got greater implications, in my opinion. The results of the experiment essentially illustrate that roughly 65% of the population is so prone to obediance that they will base their actions on the opinion or instruction of anyone they perceive to be legit. That freaks me out.

Really Athena, thanks for clearing that up for me.
I'm aware of the experiments, those were discussed in length in Psych 101 freshmen year. I did actually read the thread you posted but I guess I just got off on a tangent as did some other people. Busy stay-home-mama's get distracted like that sometimes. Thanks for reiterating on my behalf...wasn't necessary though.

The Nazis were a specific example of hundreds of thousands of regular people who did unspeakable in the name of authority

I'm not fond of following authority blindly, without question. For example, although, the Nazi's were a great and terrible force and I understand you do as you must to survive. I would have done everything necessary to protect my children, to an extent. I would not have killed on their command or followed unthinkable, deplorable actions that might have saved my ass for the moment but would have killed my soul at the same time.

Be it any authority, and I don't give a rats-ass if it was a Nazi or my college professor, (he was a bit of both), I wouldn't bend to the will of an authority just because it terrifies me or intimidates me or makes me the odd-man out to not do so. I have always made my own decisions on right or wrong, sometimes to the determent of doing things the hard way or the unpopular way.

I don't follow the herd because its safe....I follow because I choose too.

**Rockin Ma** · January 9th, 2009, 10:10 PM

I thought about this when it was on another thread a while back and the DD'er in me started thinking maybe there was more that wasn't reported. I want to know what the environment looked like where the person was pressing the shock button. Was it dark? Could the person see the other person being shocked or could just hear them? What did the person that instructed them to do the shocking look like? Maybe the person pressing the buttons did it to please the person telling them to to avoid possibly being forced into being the shockee?

I don't know, if I was involved in an experiment that crazy, I'd have to wonder if I was safe. I'd be thinking that surely the person getting shocked wouldn't willingly volunteer for something so off the wall.

**RaVen Blackehart** · January 9th, 2009, 10:15 PM

I would have been one of the soonest eliminated, so no parading around festooned with swastikas and Iron Crosses for me. My Lebanese blood would have doomed me to the Semite category.

**pissedoffindaytona** · January 9th, 2009, 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by RaVen Blackehart

I would have been one of the soonest eliminated, so no parading around festooned with swastikas and Iron Crosses for me. My Lebanese blood would have doomed me to the Semite category.

yeah, I'm hungarian and ex's family always called me a gypsy..mofuckers, I put a curse on them for that, hahahahaa

**Rockin Ma** · January 9th, 2009, 10:24 PM

I'm Hungarian too. My friends always called me a "hunky"

**Ruby** · January 9th, 2009, 10:35 PM

Hungarians! Sziasztok!!

**Rockin Ma** · January 9th, 2009, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by Ruby

Hungarians! Sziasztok!!

ha ha ha no idea what that word was!

**pissedoffindaytona** · January 9th, 2009, 10:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rockin Ma

ha ha ha no idea what that word was!

hello..

vagyunk barátok- we are friends

**brokenandtwisted** · January 9th, 2009, 11:47 PM

I'll come back to post later...have to run. But, it would be awesome if those interested in Hitler winning over the people of Germany read the link.

I would have been a Nazi...no quirms about it, most of you would have been too if you were German. In fact, by 1933 90% of Germans supported Nazism.

**Ruby** · January 10th, 2009, 12:10 AM

Originally Posted by brokenandtwisted

I'll come back to post later...have to run. But, it would be awesome if those interested in Hitler winning over the people of Germany read the link.

I would have been a Nazi...no quirms about it, most of you would have been too if you were German. In fact, by 1933 90% of Germans supported Nazism.

Interesting article, Broken. Just for accuracy, the article gives that figure for support in 1938. In 1933 and 1934, many still opposed him.

**flawed_existence** · January 10th, 2009, 12:39 AM

I'm not arguing with you or the article, Broken, I just wonder how many people were Nazis for no other reason than to keep a low profile? I would imagine life would have been made quite difficult for those who didn't join the party...

**Pete Bondurant** · January 10th, 2009, 03:52 PM

**TheMorningStar** · January 10th, 2009, 04:14 PM

**DarkPrincess** · January 10th, 2009, 04:36 PM

Let me face facts here... If I was German and living in Nazi Germany, with a child like I have now, I would do whatever it took to keep my child safe. If that meant going along with the Nazis, I think I'd learn to deal with it.