"Would YOU Have Been A Nazi?"

**Athena** · January 8th, 2009, 02:42 PM

This is the question asked in a recent article by Ronald Bailey at ReasonOnline.

The short answer? Yeah, probably.

Here at this very site, I've been engaged in a number of, um, *spirited discussions* about what people think they would do in a bad situation. Everyone wants to believe they'd save the day, whether it be saving a child from a beating to smuggling Jews to safety. But the truth is, most of us wouldn't, and, as Stanley Milgram stated back in 1974, "It is not so much the kind of person a man is as the kind of situation in which he finds himself that determines how he will act."

The original Milgram Experiment was conducted back in 1961. It involved regular people who were "teachers", told that they were doing research on how punishment effected learning. The were to shock the "student" (who was in on it) whenever they answered a question incorrectly. The switches administering the shock were labeled "Slight Shock, [/i]Moderate Shock[/i], and so forth, all the way up to Danger: Severe Shock. The final two switches were marked XXX." The volunteer "teacher" was then administered an actual 45-volt shock, so they understood what they were dealing with.

And so it began. Although the device was not administering actual shocks to the "student", the students screamed at scripted times, as if the shocks were real, to maintain the teacher's belief that he was inflicting harm. The complaints grew louder and louder until, at 300-volts, the student went silent. Now, it's not all bad - some people would get uncomfortable with what they were doing. At these points, the researcher would say things like, "The experiment requires you to continue," or "You have no other choice, you must go on." There was no established penalty, however, for quitting. The researcher held no power over the participants.

The results? Kind of horrific, if you ask me. 65% of participants went on to pull ALL the switches, including those labeled XXX. Simply put, 65% of us would kill another individual when instructed to by an authoritative figure in a structured environment.

But maybe we've learned something since then, as Americans. We've gone through the civil rights movement, we have the internet and media and we vocally oppose atrocities committed, be it by the government or our fellow man. Surely, we have grown since 1961!

Just recently, a professor at Santa Clara University recreated the experiment using individuals who were not familiar with the original. Again, the percentage remained approximately the same.

It's our structure of government that spares us such atrocity. Think about that the next time you're tempted to trade some freedom for security. We, as individuals, are not immune.

**Lizard** · January 8th, 2009, 03:04 PM

There's also the Stanford prison experiment; meant to last 2 weeks, it had to be ended after only 6 days. Go read why. Fascinating shit.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

**Nell** · January 8th, 2009, 03:09 PM

That shit scares me. You want to say NO, HELL NO I WOULD NEVER!!!! But if you are in that situation (Nazi Germany in war time) and you have kids and a family to think about do you really know what you would do? Save yourself and your loved ones, or chance their lives for strangers?

**Peeperann** · January 8th, 2009, 03:19 PM

Wow, those stats are really scary. But I do believe that I would not do it. I cannot inflict pain of any kind on anyone. It makes me sick. And I really have no problem telling authority figures to fuck off.

I actually told one of my bosses one time to "go home and fuck your wife, because maybe if you had an orgasm, you wouldn't be such a prick all the time"

Exact words. Naturally, I got fired, but it was fine with me.

It's the "sheep" mentality. I'm not a sheep. One of my children is not "saved" yet as a Christian. She was looking into things and asked me if the Rapture and Tribulation were true, and I had not been saved before hand, would I renounce Christ if they threatened to cut my head off or hers? She's my child, but I told her no, I wouldn't. Not even for her.

**Athena** · January 8th, 2009, 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Lizard

There's also the Stanford prison experiment; meant to last 2 weeks, it had to be ended after only 6 days. Go read why. Fascinating shit.

http://www.prisonexp.org/

Yep - these are my two favorite experiments to reference when discussing things like this.

I've been met with some vitriol when I've not only asked that people not judge the witnesses of certain crimes, but suggested that people might not even be exempt themselves. It's a slightly different mechanism, but the fact is, most people are not going to risk themselves in any way for a stranger. And, while the members here postulate away about what they would have done if they had been there, I find it hard to believe that this site is chalk full of statistically exceptional individuals.

The fact is that we don't really know how we would react to any given situation and, because I think it's worth stating again, "It is not so much the kind of person a man is as the kind of situation in which he finds himself that determines how he will act." The fact is that self-preservation and response to hierarchy are hardwired. Bravery for the sake of others is not. Can we really judge people for inherent tendencies winning out?

**Ruby** · January 8th, 2009, 03:32 PM

Well, being Jewish, I am quite confident in stating, "NO! I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A NAZI!"

So there.

**penelopejo** · January 8th, 2009, 03:38 PM

I think they would've killed me before they asked if I wanted to be a Nazi due to the fact that I am not white.

With that being said, I would become one if it meant keeping my family from being killed. I would rather face the torturing innocent souls than seeing my daughter, husband, mother and father being tortured. And that is the honest truth. Go ahead an groan me, but that is the way I feel. So, if it meant saving my family's lives, then yes, I would be one. Although, I'd probably try to save some lives also.

**MISSanthropic** · January 8th, 2009, 03:40 PM

I'm German. I have family who still lives in Germany. Basically, although it sucks to say, I probably would have been. I agree with Penelope. It would be much easier to watch strangers being tortured than my own family.

**Lizard** · January 8th, 2009, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by MISSanthropic

It would be much easier to watch strangers being tortured than my own family.

Especially if those strangers are part of a group you think of as "other." It could be Jews, it could be Gypsies, it could be hippies, it could be gangstas, etc.

**Sister Iroz** · January 8th, 2009, 04:08 PM

I don't think you can know what you would do until you have been put into said situation. I would also take into fact, marriage, children, and the other person. I would like to say no I wouldn't be a Nazi but that wouldn't be true until I've been in said situation.

**Athena** · January 8th, 2009, 04:37 PM

Originally Posted by penelopejo

I think they would've killed me before they asked if I wanted to be a Nazi due to the fact that I am not white.

With that being said, I would become one if it meant keeping my family from being killed. I would rather face the torturing innocent souls than seeing my daughter, husband, mother and father being tortured. And that is the honest truth. Go ahead an groan me, but that is the way I feel. So, if it meant saving my family's lives, then yes, I would be one. Although, I'd probably try to save some lives also.

That's admirably honest of you, Penelopejo. But that's what's so creepy about these experiments in particular - the researcher or "authority" in the situation, the one urging the "teachers" to administer higher and higher levels of shock... The held nothing over the teachers but perception. This 65%... their lives weren't being threatened. They essentially killed people simply because they were told to by someone who seemed legit.

The exact nature of the authority wielded by experimenters is controversial, but it seems based on both perceived legitimacy and expertise. It doesn't take too much imagination to think that even more people would have gone all the way to 450-volts if the experimenter had the power to punish disobedience.

To put it quite bluntly:

In 1979, Milgram's judgement was more severe: "If a system of death camps were set up in the United States of the sort we had seen in Nazi Germany, one would be able to find sufficient personnel for those camps in any medium-sized American town."

Fuckin' scary.

**swivel** · January 8th, 2009, 05:27 PM

This thread makes me miss gprime.

**Athena** · January 8th, 2009, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by swivel

This thread makes me miss gprime.

I always miss gprime. He might have been a bit tightly-wound, but he sure knew how to stir people up. Or maybe it was an incidental bi-product of his personality. Either way, he was fun to have around.

**Kitty** · January 8th, 2009, 06:14 PM

Watching the Stanford Prison Experiment was my final for Psychology class last semester, those kind of situations (stanford prison/milgram) along with mob-mentality scare the crap out of me.. anyway.. more to see on the topic here: http://www.dreamindemon.com/forums/s...hlight=milgram

I like to think I have a pretty strong sense of right and wrong, and would not fall prey to 'the system' but I also love my country.. so I can not honestly say what I would do in that situation.

**Dark Star** · January 8th, 2009, 06:21 PM

No. I would NOT have been a Nazi. I clearly would have been fucking killed. No doubt in my mind.

**swivel** · January 8th, 2009, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by Athena

I always miss gprime. He might have been a bit tightly-wound, but he sure knew how to stir people up. Or maybe it was an incidental bi-product of his personality. Either way, he was fun to have around.

Nothing like asking for donations to run off a Jew!

**Pete Bondurant** · January 8th, 2009, 08:06 PM

"Would YOU Have Been A Nazi?"

Hell, I am a Nazi!

How could anyone resist such stunning uniforms?

**pissedoffindaytona** · January 8th, 2009, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by MISSanthropic

I'm German. I have family who still lives in Germany. Basically, although it sucks to say, I probably would have been. I agree with Penelope. It would be much easier to watch strangers being tortured than my own family.

I was married to a german from essen, and his grandfather and uncle were nazis, and the whole family doesn't believe the halocaust happened it's all jew propanganda, that is why I'm no longer with those fucking bastards..

**Pete Bondurant** · January 8th, 2009, 09:36 PM

**TheMorningStar** · January 8th, 2009, 09:40 PM

I'm good in a fight, I went to a really tough school in a really bad neighborhood..........I would have run like a little bitch once I saw the openly accepted hate mongering. I'm CYA like that - at least I admit it. So, I guess I would have been shot if I had been unable to escape.

**Eagles Mom** · January 8th, 2009, 09:40 PM

The woman my uncle was married to was in Hitler's Youth Corp as a young child. She said there really wasn't an option if you wanted to continue to breathe.

**Pete Bondurant** · January 8th, 2009, 09:43 PM

.

**Pete Bondurant** · January 8th, 2009, 09:44 PM

you must learn to hate!

**Ruby** · January 8th, 2009, 09:50 PM

Originally Posted by Pete Bondurant

you must learn to hate!

FUCK YOU, SHITHEAD!!

(how'm I doing so far?)

**Pete Bondurant** · January 8th, 2009, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Ruby

FUCK YOU, SHITHEAD!!

(how'm I doing so far?)

Uh...yes...very well done indeed. I think that will be enough for today, dear.

**TheMorningStar** · January 8th, 2009, 09:55 PM

Originally Posted by Ruby

FUCK YOU, SHITHEAD!!

(how'm I doing so far?)

That was the funniest thing I have read in a long time.
Can't.......breathe.

**Pete Bondurant** · January 8th, 2009, 10:04 PM

**Owd Scrat** · January 9th, 2009, 12:05 AM

Would I have been a Nazi? No, I don't think so.

But I sure as shit would have dated them! Reference Pete's comment on uniforms....and .....mostly those BOOTS.

**flawed_existence** · January 9th, 2009, 12:31 AM

Unfortunately, I would have either been in a concentration camp or killed outright. I don't like bullies.

But at the time, my grandfathers, uncles, and cousins were refusing conscription in the British Army and carrying on with the war they were already engaged in. As an American, it's hard to imagine that a substantial number of the Irish despised the British to the extent that they actually flirted with the Nazis. My father, on the other hand, was an aide to General MacArthur. Weird fucking family...

But really. What do you do if you live in the neighborhood of a concentration camp? You hear the rumors. You know instinctively that people, large numbers of people MUST be dying in that place. But what can you DO about it? What a horrible situation to find oneself in. I want to blame the German people for standing by and allowing innocent people to die by the millions. At the same time, I understand the history involved in the making of the collective German psyche at the time. The Treaty of Versailles, (at the end of WWI) placed the blame for the war squarely on Germany's shoulders and the country was emasculated and force to pay reparations. As it should have been. BUT. It was the end of a long line of humiliations and defeats for a country known for its pride. It's no wonder the Germans were looking about for somebody to beat up on. But then you get back to personal responsibility and honor and right and wrong and...

People are hopeless. It's a miracle we've survived this long without self destructing.

And does Pete know his alter-ego is Cartman?

**CPL CHUD** · January 9th, 2009, 12:28 PM

I would of. I dig their sense of fashion.

I think that some accounts of the concentration camps are vastly inaccurate and exaggerated. It was easy to pick on the Jews when they began boycotting the Germans in 1933 with the intention of entirely destroying the already meager German economy and declared themselves enemies of the German people. It's the same old tactic of being racist and offensive while feigning victimhood and complete innocence.