Teachers With Guns

[Athena]

A small school district in Texas voted unanimously to allow teachers to carry guns to school. They will have to have a concealed carry license on top of crisis training and specific permission from the school. However, the superintendent, David Thweatt, says the move is simply, "common sense". Thweatt says, "We have a lock-down situation, we have cameras, but the question we had to answer is, 'What if somebody gets in? What are we going to do?"

Personally, this is an idea I've always supported. There are countless examples of legal, licensed gun owners thwarting a would-be shooter. Metal detectors, fences and unarmed guards clearly do not prevent these incidents. Death tolls have continued to rise in cases of school shootings.

It'll be interesting to see if any problems are caused by armed teachers. With this decision being the first of its kind in America, it will be very intregral in encouraging or discouraging other districts to adopt similar policies.

Had to know something like this would come out of Texas, though. :p

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I watched an interview with a school official and a "talking head" (head of a Houston teacher org.) on this this morning. The talking head, being against it, finished the discussion with something along the lines of this: Enjoy it breifly. Legislators are not happy and will fix this soon enough.

What torqued me was the woman saying that women can't even keep track of their purses and the kids would get hold of the guns.

Found it!!: http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video0...m/foxfriends//

[Athena]

While whether or not kids will have access to these guns is a worthwhile consideration, I think it's absolutely ridiculous to illustrate the concern by saying that these women can't keep track of their purses. It's not like all teachers will have guns; only the ones willing to go through the extra training and such will have permission to carry. Those who feel it important enough to go to the lengths needed to be able to carry a gun to work aren't the same people who would lose their head if it weren't connected to their neck.

Teachers will bring guns to school because safety is important to them. Does this woman actually believe that these same people would contradict that interest in safety by being reckless with their gun?

[Dakota Valkyrie]

What I wonder is what is the difference in a trained armed teacher and a guard? At least teachers will have something to do when there are no shooters running rampant in the school. I think it's a good way to save the district money on an expense that is unlikely to be needed (at least hopefully unneeded).

I think because the woman interviewed from was a large school area (Houston) that she may be a bit out of touch with rural districts.

Armed teachers beats nothing. Around here, we have city resource officers in the schools. Not sure if they're armed or not. But the city pays, not the school.

Possible dangers? They are probably as likely to happen as a crazed killer running in the halls. It could happen, but not likely in a general day.

As the mother of 2 teachers and 2 soon-to-be teachers, I would feel comfortable with any of them being armed in school. I would prefer and encourage them not to but if they did, I would trust them.

Are shooters more likely than they were 30 years ago?

Sorry for disjointed rambling...

[Athena]

You're taking over the country, aren't you. Starting by sending your minions to infiltrate the educational system. You may want to be a little less obvious, you know. :p

I'm not sure if we're more prone to school shootings than 30 years ago. Not sure if it's been tracked that long. However, this survey from the National School Safety Center is the most comprehensive and clear report I've seen. We're trending in the right direction, and violence at school is much less likely than it was 15 years ago (chart is found on the last page).

That said, the above report lumps all school violence together. Once upon a time, gangs were the primary reason for school violence. It's possible that rural districts are witnessing a relative upswing.

[brokenandtwisted]

Originally Posted by Athena

Teachers will bring guns to school because safety is important to them. Does this woman actually believe that these same people would contradict that interest in safety by being reckless with their gun?

Is this safety, or is this paranoia? I would like to see statistical data on students + teachers being harmed...probabilities, recent data and the likes. I feel this is firmly rooted in paranoia and empowerment (hello Second Amendment).

Also, is there not an old saying about your weapons being used on you? Someone needs to appeal this shit...

If anything, anything...they should have panic buttons (red buttons under the desks) connected to the front office to commence a code orange/code white, or school lock-down, and have police notified immediately.

[w8ng4msrgt]

Originally Posted by brokenandtwisted

Is this safety, or is this paranoia? I would like to see statistical data on students + teachers being harmed...probabilities, recent data and the likes. I feel this is firmly rooted in paranoia and empowerment (hello Second Amendment).

Also, is there not an old saying about your weapons being used on you? Someone needs to appeal this shit...

If anything, anything...they should have panic buttons (red buttons under the desks) connected to the front office to commence a code orange/code white, or school lock-down, and have police notified immediately.

Buttons under the desk? I am trying not to laugh too hard. Maybe if they came running down from the office with assault rifles.

I don't know about the rest of the country but when I worked for a school district in Tx quite a few folks packed. They didn't make it known and wouldn't try to be Rambo. There is a reason that school employees don't have to walk through a metal detector.

Anyone who holsters their weapon anywhere besides their body has no right to carry a weapon.

[brokenandtwisted]

Originally Posted by w8ng4msrgt

Buttons under the desk? I am trying not to laugh too hard. Maybe if they came running down from the office with assault rifles.

Buttons anywhere. Something you can click to commence lock-down. My schools had it (also doors requiring keys and cards)...but I'm in Canada, and we don't have hands on our triggers here; so I suppose it's different down there.

[w8ng4msrgt]

Originally Posted by brokenandtwisted

but I'm in Canada, and we don't have hands on our triggers here; so I suppose it's different down there.

I forgot about you being in Canada. God help you since the queen doesn't like hand guns. Maybe you can get some surgery on your leg so you can hide a weapon like this:

[Dakota Valkyrie]

It would be easier for a teacher to protect a gun than a button. At least the gun goes where they go. Kids would be after the alarm button like they are the fire pulls. A few false alarms and the effect is not there when needed.

In most schools there is already a button. Intercom. Crazed gunmen have minimal fear of them. They would also have little fear of an armed teacher. Difference is that with the teacher, a method of stopping the idiot in his tracks is right there, not minutes and several rounds away.

All in all, I think it's a fear reaction and not really needed. Maybe if I was in "big city" gang country, I would feel different. That is a whole different arena.

[Athena]

Well, it's one of those things that isn't really needed...Until it is. Unless being prepared for the worst proves counter-productive, I'm all for it.

Is it the result of paranoia? I've never looked at it that way. I look at responsible gun ownership more like the earthquake safety kit I've got at home, or car insurance. I've not needed it yet and hope I never do, but it's there in the event of emergency. If school shootings were likely and predictable, teachers wouldn't need to protect themselves. In reality, school shootings are just unlikely enough that most school districts don't have effective preventative measures in place...because truly preventative measures would be expensive.

[Raphaelight]

This is ridiculous and only creates a world more dangerous. It makes me so angry I think i might go and eat a whole kilo of cheese . . .

[Aelwynn]

I don't know how it works in Tx but apparently in France they would use those guns when they lose their tempers. ;P Honestly my only concern would be if the teachers suddenly decided to use the guns and we'd have a mentally stressed teacher shooting at students.

But in Tx don't they have a law that everyone can carry a concealed weapon? Hell, I'd probably bring a stun gun with me to school just in case - if I were a teacher in a big city in Tx.

I've seen a lot of news reports lately about students shooting up classes, I don't remember seeing these growing up. Have times really changed that much? Where I grew up, we did have the metal detectors and things like that. However, we never once had a shooting. Maybe because the would-be shooters were thwarted?

My hubby once told me that he didn't want our kids going to school with metal detectors, security cameras on them at all times, guards etc. Now I see where he is coming from. I wouldn't want my girls going to school knowing that their teachers might fly off the handle and lose it - and be damn close to a weapon!

For the record we do own guns. We just only pull them outta their safe spots (that are locked x2131234 million times) when we go hunting. Otherwise we have mace on a keyring and a stun gun in my purse. I don't see the need to use a real weapon against someone else that's holding a weapon. What am I gonna do? Pray I have better aim than the shooter? HA! Great idea there.

By the way DV, my hubby and I compared the schools both of us went to. ND is a WAY safer area to go to school in. NJ is completely worse for schooling and just the surrounding atmosphere. If there were zero security measures in NJ schools, I would consider this idea about teachers bringing guns to schhol...but in the end, I'd go with my gut feeling - adding more guns to a situation only causes a stand-off (or a trigger-happy kid) and will cause more problems than help.

Athena is right. A lot of schools don't have preventive measures because of the price tag. My parents used to talk about the educational taxes every year. Each parent per kid was paying about 200$ a month to go to High school during the remodel. The remodel lasted about 2 years. It was an insane fee for added security, but well worth it for the future. Just the "now" got stuck with the bill. Not many people want their taxes to go up etc.

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Aelwynn

Honestly my only concern would be if the teachers suddenly decided to use the guns and we'd have a mentally stressed teacher shooting at students.

That's also a very valid concern. But, statistically-speaking, it's more likely that the school will encounter a shooter than a concealed weapons licensee snapping and taking students out. Not to say it's impossible, but it's highly unlikely. You almost never hear of teachers killing students, nor do you tend to hear about concealed weapons licensees engaged in illegal activity. Furthermore, as it stands currently, there's nothing but policy "preventing" a teacher from doing berserk today.

[Aelwynn]

Honestly I know that. I was being dramatic. LOL

Seriously though, what good is another gun being brought into a shooting going to help? Pray you have better aim? Stare at each other while trying to calmly talk the student down? The student going off and just shooting everyone?

In my opinion, bringing more guns to protect yourself from a "supposed" threat is no way to handle this at all. Get a metal detector and you're good. ;P

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I think a guard would be much more likely to snap and go off on students. Kids can be merciless with the rent-a-cops.

[Athena]

Aelwynn, that's a curious question to have, for an ex-military member. Do soldiers in combat-forward positions simply hope they have better aim than combatants? No, they train to ensure they have good aim. The same can be said for the vast majority of concealed weapons licensees. These folks tend to get training and lots of practice. I spend time down at the range so that, if I ever have to use a gun, I don't have to hope I've got good aim. I'd imagine that the same could be said for the teachers who bother to jump through the hoops required to bring a gun to work.

[polis]

I haven't been in high school in ten years, but they took away our lockers because they found several weapons (mostly guns) along with narcotics in the lockers. Middle schools and high schools do have police officers at each school. The school I went to had a fight that blew up into a riot where the swat team had to take over the school for a whole day and they had police all over campus for the whole week.

There have been incidents in my city that are not at all like columbine but gang related or something as pathetic, from getting stabbed in the classroom, to getting runned down in front of the school, or the time a high school teacher was sexually assaulted in her classroom.

I personally don't think a button is going to save anyone, given how big the schools are around here and the money it would take to set up buttons everywhere...seriously.. a button isn't going to make some stupid kid stop stabbing another kid.We don't have metal detectors here. Like it was mentioned before, some teachers already carried.

Also, Texas doesn't allow Everyone to have a gun, just those who qualify and pass the test. :P

And believe it or not, students with criminal records can still be found in regular high schools, some wearing their monitoring devices with pride, crimes ranging from vandalism to attempted murder.

I do believe better security should be created but it is cheaper to just arm oneself than doing other means.

[Aelwynn]

Just being ex-military doesn't mean I'm going to be a better shot than some random kid. The military has video games out nowadays that are made exactly like real life...aka learning to shoot a weapon. I'm not cocky enough to want to put myself in a situation where some kid has a gun and it's a shoot out between us. There's always someone better than you. That's just how the way the world works. I'm not stupid enough to go "hey I'm way better aim than this little kid"...yeah right. I'd rather not take my chances.

Being ex-military honestly has nothing to do with this. I don't pick up guns unless I need to defend myself in my own home. I don't even hunt anymore. If I were a teacher, would I bring a gun with me to school? Hell fucking no I wouldn't. I'd rather be a sitting duck behind a closed door than to ever worry about being shot just cause I'm carrying a weapon too. I have kids to think about.

I've seen the locker searches before, but never any weapons. Usually they looked for pot lol. A button really won't save anyone though.

I'm all for the other ideas we had like ISS, however a gun I don't agree with.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I just can't see our little schools hiring guards "just in case". What a waste of money. Cheaper to train a teacher or administrator who will be there anyway.

Any "What If" scenario I can think of about teachers and guns is just as valid with a guard or police officer.

My children who are teachers are just as capable of making the right decision in an armed confrontation as my son who is a police officer. The difference is that he's more likely to encounter it on a day-to-day basis but never has (few officers ever do).

Sad it even needs to be a concern in our schools. I worry more about the schools menu choices on the longevity of the students.

[Aelwynn]

Yeah DV. ND schools don't NEED security. Most of the kids that go to school live right down the block from school. So if there's any issue, they KNOW where to find the kids. I mean my hubby knows all his teachers from the day he was born, and that surprised me. But hiring a security guard for Velva? Nah. I don't see that happening, just like I don't see someone shooting up the school in the near future.

I can completely see a security guard flying off the handle a lot faster than a teacher would. Like an overzealous cop!

I'm worried though that this will bite their asses in the end and have even more people voting to get rid of that law to carry a concealed weapon.

[polis]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/08/21/...ing/index.html

I wonder what would have happened if the teacher had a gun...

[Athena]

Originally Posted by Aelwynn

Just being ex-military doesn't mean I'm going to be a better shot than some random kid. The military has video games out nowadays that are made exactly like real life...aka learning to shoot a weapon. I'm not cocky enough to want to put myself in a situation where some kid has a gun and it's a shoot out between us. There's always someone better than you. That's just how the way the world works. I'm not stupid enough to go "hey I'm way better aim than this little kid"...yeah right. I'd rather not take my chances.

Being ex-military honestly has nothing to do with this. I don't pick up guns unless I need to defend myself in my own home. I don't even hunt anymore. If I were a teacher, would I bring a gun with me to school? Hell fucking no I wouldn't. I'd rather be a sitting duck behind a closed door than to ever worry about being shot just cause I'm carrying a weapon too. I have kids to think about.

Well, then...I guess it's a good thing you're not a teacher. Or a cop. Or military any more, for that matter. If your children are the only people you think of when people need defending, you're right where you ought to be.

At Virginia Tech, one teacher, a Holocaust survivor, was hailed as a hero for ultimately giving his life in an attempt to hold the door to his classroom shut to save his students. Had he had a gun, I'd be willing to bet he would have shot that fucker dead. If a gunman was loose in my school, I'd take the chance.

One observation - you don't sound like someone who's gotten any weapons training. Or, perhaps it's so far removed you don't trust your ability anymore. Yes, there's always someone better than you...But that person is unlikely to be a kid with a gun. And the reports prove it. These kids go into these schools with multiple weapons, dozens of bullets, but end up taking out minimal people. I've always wondered what would happen if a trained shooter snapped like that, shooting what amounts to fish in a barrel. The death tolls would be MUCH higher.

Me? I'm not ex-military, not a cop...I haven't even been through formal weapons training. But I'd bet my life that I'm a better shot than some punk kid in a second, especially if there were students in a room with me.

[Aelwynn]

No, Athena. Children aren't the only people that I see needing to be defended however lately they are the ones that are being targetted. Not usually adults.

I just don't trust my ability when compared to some crazy kid with a gun that doesn't care about his life. I care about mine. That's why I don't really carry weapons on me. Nor do I feel bad about caring about MY life AND that kid's life. He may be a gun crazed teenager, but he's also got family. So do I. I don't want MY kids growing up without a mother just because I picked up a gun.

However, there are computer games out there created by the military just to train kids in REAL shooting. Honestly if it were me vs. a crazy Halo freak that's awesome when the sniper rifle - I'm not sure who would win. I'm so rusty now that he would probably take me out in a heartbeat without flinching. Whereas I'd be thinking about HIS parents and what might happen if I killed him instead of maimed him. OR what might happen to ME because I got cocky.

Also try to remember the last time I picked up a gun. It would have to be about 3 years ago, during a contest. Last time I had military training was EIGHT years ago, prior to getting married. It's not like falling off a horse. Each gun is different and I sure as hell wouldn't trust in my ability to aim fairly enough to protect myself. I wouldn't hit a wall, but I doubt I'd hit the kid in between the eyes right off.

However, this is funny...there's this show on Lifetime (I think it's Lifetime or CourtTV) called "The Principal". Basically it's about the inside view of high schools and their disciplinary tactics. What I found interesting was they showed 3 high schools from Tx.

Apparently they still have ISS and OSS. They also use Corporal Punishment to remove Saturday detentions. Meaning, if you don't want to go to a Saturday dentention - one swift hit with a paddle and you're out of it.

Edit: If this was about my husband rather than me, I'd tell him to carry a gun with him. I don't think I should though. I care about my girls too much to put myself into even more danger and making myself a target. As soon as I pick up that gun I can imagine a "hunter's mark" (the one from WoW) right over my damn head and this kid seeing it.

[Boondock]

Aelwynn, I gotta say your basic premise here is confusing the hell out of me. What exactly about carrying a weapon suddenly makes you a target for some crazed maniac (teenager or not, school shooting or not)?

I'd rather be a sitting duck behind a closed door than to ever worry about being shot just cause I'm carrying a weapon too. I have kids to think about.

And this statement baffles me as well. How in god's name does being a "sitting duck" seem preferable to being able to defend yourself? And, again, why would you be shot "just cause you're carrying a weapon too?" In the case of a school shooting you would most likely be shot because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because you were specifically targeted. And with that being the case, I just cannot imagine not wanting at least the option of being able to protect yourself and the students under your care.

Perhaps I am just being dense, but I simply cannot seem to wrap my brain around your point of view.

[Aelwynn]

I'm all for defending myself. Just not with a gun. You bring more guns into a situation and it'll turn even more deadly fast. There are a few scenarios that I can come up with just by being a teacher myself and bringing a gun to school.

- Either I shoot the kid and get arrested for murder
- The kid shoots me and I die, or get hurt really badly
- We shoot each other and we're both hurt or killed
- We both miss each other and are left at an all out shoot-out
- We stand there holding our guns pointed at each other

All of the above are not that great scenarios. Honestly, none of them fix the original problem - kid with a gun shooting people. I'm pretty sure if he's already shooting at people even the last scenario wouldn't be likely. He'd most likely just pull the trigger.

If I were to pick up a weapon and shoot the gun at someone, you bet your ass they are going to notice me...and most likely AIM at me. I'd rather NOT be taken as an aggressive target and just get the fuck outta there - or barricade myself in a room.

And, again, why would you be shot "just cause you're carrying a weapon too?" In the case of a school shooting you would most likely be shot because you were in the wrong place at the wrong time, not because you were specifically targeted.

Actually in several school shooting there has been evidence that the students purposely AIMED to take out targets (like security guards carrying guns) just so that there was little to no resistance. IF they knew I had a gun, I'd be a damn target. IF I pulled the trigger, I'd be a damn target.

As for being a teacher carrying a weapon...did anyone stop to think that some of these kids might steal the teacher's weapon? I'd be worried about that too. There are several instances where security guard's guns have been stolen from locked safes.

And with that being the case, I just cannot imagine not wanting at least the option of being able to protect yourself and the students under your care.

This is why I am NOT a teacher. I care about myself and my kids foremost, call it selfish but my family comes first. I'm not about to put myself into any environment that will put myself at even more danger than I already am. I'd rather NOT pull out a weapon to solve a weapon problem. I don't want my kids without a mother, therefore I'd try my best to NOT get hurt.

I'm telling you, there's a phrase for this I just can't remember it. One gun is a problem, adding more guns to said gun problem only causes more problems.

I DO carry a stun gun, but if I were stuck in a bank robbery...I would in no way pull out that stun gun to "defend" myself or the other people with me. That's just asking to be shot and plain stupidity.

Think of it this way: Someone has a gun pointed at your face, would you A) Pull out your own gun or B) Comply and pray they move on.

I'm more a B person myself, especially now that I have kids. If I were being robbed, had a gun in my face, I'd give them what they want and then go call the cops. If I were being sexually assaulted and there was only a knife...you bet your ass I'd pull out my mace or stun gun. I'm NOT faster than a bullet. A knife or pencil, sure.

Honestly it's a bit hard to understand, especially since I'm prior military. My husband has a dangerous job, therefore I try my best not to get involved in dangerous activities. Why put two people in our family at risk, when one shouldn't even be tolerated. I wouldn't put myself in this position to begin with, BUT if I were forced with a choice...my choice would be barricade myself and the students into a room. NOT pick up a gun.

[Boondock]

Okay, I'm getting a little frustrated because we seem to be talking on two completely separate planes. I'll just point out the few things that really jumped out at me.
First:

- Either I shoot the kid and get arrested for murder

Why exactly would you be charged with murder? If you were defending yourself and your students it would be, by definition, self defense. Don't understand why the ONLY scenarios you can come up with are negative. What if the kid with a gun suddenly comes across an armed person ready willing and able to defend themselves? He/she could take one look and go, gee that's not part of the plan! Wasn't wanting to get shot back at! And that could be the end of the confrontation with no lives lost.

If I were to pick up a weapon and shoot the gun at someone, you bet your ass they are going to notice me...and most likely AIM at me.

You are absolutely right about this. That is why you don't miss. I guess what it comes down to is I would much rather make myself a target than risk the kids in my charge being hurt or killed.

Think of it this way: Someone has a gun pointed at your face, would you A) Pull out your own gun or B) Comply and pray they move on.

In my opinion, this scenario is a no brainer. Of course you would simply comply and pray. Once someone has a gun pointed at your face, you're pretty well fucked. The idea is to not let it get to that point.

A gun is only helpful if you have the appropriate mental power to accompany its use. In other words, you need to be able to analyze a situation and know when its use will be helpful and when it will be harmful.

There are many instances where an innocent person having a gun has saved their lives. I am inclined to think that there are many violent attacks that could have been prevented if only the victim had access to a gun. Is there a chance that a gun could be taken away and used against the victim? Absolutely. Personally, if someone enters my house without my permission then they are a threat. I will not wait for them to come close enough to harm me. I will shoot them before they get anywhere near me. And with the loads in my gun they will not ever get close enough to harm me. Am I taking a chance that the justice system will agree that I was in danger? Yep. But I'm okay with that. I have no criminal past and no violent tendencies (on record :)) so I would say the odds are with me. Either way, I will go out fighting.

[brokenandtwisted]

Hypothetically what happens when a teacher snaps?

[Boondock]

I would say, hypothetically, you're screwed