How to fix prison overpopulation

[Mr_Vindictive]

Swivel,

I'm a big supporter of education and feel that our school systems suck. That being said, I do agree with your opinion of prisons. No matter what we do to curb crime in this country, it is still widespread. Overcrowding is a common occurance in most every part of the country. More money needs to be spent to create larger prisons. It is frightening to think just how many inmates have been released early due to overcrowding.

Jail isn't for rehabilitation anymore. Now they are there to keep the bastards away from those of us who don't rob and murder.

[CPL CHUD]

I think if we are going to spend more money on prison it should be treated as a business. People are reluctant to do so now because they don't see any big returns on their investments. The feeling of safety is not enough. I suggest using them as a work force that generates capital and profit for investors. Have Nike enter an agreement with the government to utillize criminals inhabiting these prisons for long stints as a labor force to make shoes. Have them dig ditches. Build toys. Maintain landscapes. Grow cash crops.

If there is a widely unused resource sitting there for us why aren't we utillizing it? If people are unwilling to put forth bigger deterents for crime, and our prisons are getting more and more crowded, is there any other real choice? Does rehabilitation really work for these repeated offenders?

[swivel]

I think if we are going to spend more money on prison it should be treated as a business. People are reluctant to do so now because they don't see any big returns on their investments. The feeling of safety is not enough. I suggest using them as a work force that generates capital and profit for investors. Have Nike enter an agreement with the government to utillize criminals inhabiting these prisons for long stints as a labor force to make shoes. Have them dig ditches. Build toys. Maintain landscapes. Grow cash crops.

If there is a widely unused resource sitting there for us why aren't we utillizing it? If people are unwilling to put forth bigger deterents for crime, and our prisons are getting more and more crowded, is there any other real choice? Does rehabilitation really work for these repeated offenders?

Agree. And I would go one step crazier: Have sentencing based on required OUTPUT. Come up with some unit of measurement, like a work-week of 40 hours, and sentence people to a certain number of units. If you want to work overtime, weekends, holidays, and get out early, that's up to you. If you don't want to do shit, and spend the rest of your life in prison, also fine. The worst crimes (stuff that gets you life in prison now), will be given a number of units so great that the criminal will be old when released, but not so great as to dissuade inmates from participating at all.

I think steady work will rehabilitate better than ANY of the bullshit that goes on in prison right now. Because you can't change what a person is, but if you can change their financial situation (and sense of self-worth), they will not need to tap into that person. The people in prison had nothing to lose before going, a bit of wealth changes that.

When they are released, the prisoner will be given a small sum of compounded interest based on work units. Don't get me wrong, they will have been working for free, to benefit the state, but they will get something like .01% interest compounded. Enough to rent a place and buy some necessities. Then they will transition into a similar workforce and use their learned skills. Probably in a half-way factory or similar setting.

I would love to see major car manufacturers partner with prisons. Have a Ford prison, where cars are built from the ground up by inmates. Ford has to pay the same "salary" that they currently pay, but it all goes straight to state and federal coffers. And they pay for the prison/factory infrastructure with massive tax incentives and breaks. When inmates get out, move them into designated half-way factories around the country, doing the exact same job as before (the shock of transition is what gets released criminals in trouble), and after their probationary period, they can stay on with the company or hit the open job market.

There are hundreds of factory-based industries in the US. Enough to soak up every bit of prison employ. The only hurdle is the bad PR. The current factory workers will bitch, as all displaced workers do in transition periods. But since the economy will be better off, and society a better place, they will be better off after a harsh job-search. This process goes on daily, and the unemployment rate stays low, so we can't let the loud few wreck society for the silent majority.

This would be a win for everyone. Potential victims, the criminals, the manufacturers, the consumers, the rehabilitated, the families of all involved... the only entity which would suffer would be the unions, and that is just an added bonus.

[alizardsbet]

Agree. And I would go one step crazier: Have sentencing based on required OUTPUT. Come up with some unit of measurement, like a work-week of 40 hours, and sentence people to a certain number of units. If you want to work overtime, weekends, holidays, and get out early, that's up to you. If you don't want to do shit, and spend the rest of your life in prison, also fine. The worst crimes (stuff that gets you life in prison now), will be given a number of units so great that the criminal will be old when released, but not so great as to dissuade inmates from participating at all.

I think steady work will rehabilitate better than ANY of the bullshit that goes on in prison right now. Because you can't change what a person is, but if you can change their financial situation (and sense of self-worth), they will not need to tap into that person. The people in prison had nothing to lose before going, a bit of wealth changes that.

When they are released, the prisoner will be given a small sum of compounded interest based on work units. Don't get me wrong, they will have been working for free, to benefit the state, but they will get something like .01% interest compounded. Enough to rent a place and buy some necessities. Then they will transition into a similar workforce and use their learned skills. Probably in a half-way factory or similar setting.

I would love to see major car manufacturers partner with prisons. Have a Ford prison, where cars are built from the ground up by inmates. Ford has to pay the same "salary" that they currently pay, but it all goes straight to state and federal coffers. And they pay for the prison/factory infrastructure with massive tax incentives and breaks. When inmates get out, move them into designated half-way factories around the country, doing the exact same job as before (the shock of transition is what gets released criminals in trouble), and after their probationary period, they can stay on with the company or hit the open job market.

There are hundreds of factory-based industries in the US. Enough to soak up every bit of prison employ. The only hurdle is the bad PR. The current factory workers will bitch, as all displaced workers do in transition periods. But since the economy will be better off, and society a better place, they will be better off after a harsh job-search. This process goes on daily, and the unemployment rate stays low, so we can't let the loud few wreck society for the silent majority.

This would be a win for everyone. Potential victims, the criminals, the manufacturers, the consumers, the rehabilitated, the families of all involved... the only entity which would suffer would be the unions, and that is just an added bonus.

ok... i like where you were going, and would have agreed with CPL CHUD myself. i like that we keep them busy and their release is determined not on hours wasted being idle and getting into trouble but based on productivity. i like that we would then be able to train these individuals with some sort of skills to take care of themselves in theory once they are out of the prison. if you hadnt posted before me i would have been seconding this idea but as you have i kinda wonder now at the possible problems.

first we wouldnt be displacing, well not necessarily the current workers in today's society, but displacing overseas manufacturing. which i am all for. so i dont really see where our own would be pissy about this. matter of fact it could stir up some foreign affairs as we would become even more efficient at taking care of ourselves. not that i have a problem with this. i think its about time we step back from the world stage a bit and mind our business.

second this actually could go to replace schools, or could at least be considered an alternative. i worry though about the gov't dependency of this idea. people that get so use to being told what to do, i dont care if they are a hardened criminal, even worse if they are, they get use to being told what to do, even start to like it, when they are outside they become viable citizens again with a sympathetic ear to that big voice. not being paranoid, just stating im not too comfortable with a system that could possibly become the predominant influence of our population by controlling some of the most powerful industries or lets say enriching them. or... even those industries blending with our gov't a bit more to become a heavier influence than those corporations already are in our politics. its not necessarily bad, but not a lot of good has come out of such attempts in the past to do something very similar to what you are suggesting. there is a reason why this country owns very little in private corporation.

thirdly, thats a lot of money you are thrusting into our politicians hands. if someone was to consider the idea of prison workers seriously we'd have to already have a budget for projects to funnel that money into. you are easily talking billions of dollars a year they suddenly have to play with. i'd like to make sure there isnt a lot of waste going on.

grant it these concerns are minor, but should be considered.

[swivel]

Great post! Let's work on this a tad, see where it goes. Normally I hate this posting style, but it really warrants it here as I am being constructive, and not trying to "win" a debate of any sort. Hope you don't mind.


first we wouldnt be displacing, well not necessarily the current workers in today's society, but displacing overseas manufacturing. which i am all for. so i dont really see where our own would be pissy about this. matter of fact it could stir up some foreign affairs as we would become even more efficient at taking care of ourselves. not that i have a problem with this. i think its about time we step back from the world stage a bit and mind our business.


I would rather not displace overseas workers. I am fond of outsourcing. Creating a lowerclass in developing countries will lead to a middleclass, which will enrich everyone as they become consumers. Economics has no room for nationalism or racism. The Prison/Factory would not compete with depressed overseas wages, but with wages right here. It is a myth that manufacturing is gone in the US, we still produce more goods than any other country per capita. It is just that our lead has gone down, not gone away. Think of all the foreign-car plants that are opening here, I have them in mind as well.



second this actually could go to replace schools, or could at least be considered an alternative. i worry though about the gov't dependency of this idea. people that get so use to being told what to do, i dont care if they are a hardened criminal, even worse if they are, they get use to being told what to do, even start to like it, when they are outside they become viable citizens again with a sympathetic ear to that big voice. not being paranoid, just stating im not too comfortable with a system that could possibly become the predominant influence of our population by controlling some of the most powerful industries or lets say enriching them. or... even those industries blending with our gov't a bit more to become a heavier influence than those corporations already are in our politics. its not necessarily bad, but not a lot of good has come out of such attempts in the past to do something very similar to what you are suggesting. there is a reason why this country owns very little in private corporation.


Keep the industries in control, not the government. The only intermingling would be the tax benefits, and that is already the case. Look at the Colorado prison systems to see how private ownership can work with the gov. The fed pays them to house criminals, and the prisons turn a profit. No different here except greater profits and chance for re-hab.



thirdly, thats a lot of money you are thrusting into our politicians hands. if someone was to consider the idea of prison workers seriously we'd have to already have a budget for projects to funnel that money into. you are easily talking billions of dollars a year they suddenly have to play with. i'd like to make sure there isnt a lot of waste going on.

grant it these concerns are minor, but should be considered.

See above, we would be doing the opposite. Get more prisons privately-funded and out of the fed's hands.

Besides, your argument would be even stronger for the roads. Billions and billions wasted on mismanagement. Roads should be kept up by private institutions, and not the government. And trucking should be paying a MUCH higher share of the costs, enough to make rail freight a good alternative.

[alizardsbet]

i dont mind at all, matter of fact i prefer this sort of problem solving conversing. i dont mind the style, but you wont mind if i keep to my own...?

as for the outsourcing, i wasnt really referring to that. its healthy competition as i see it. keeps us innovative and overhead down. my problem is some of the regulations that arent followed in those so called second rate countries. if not for the inhuman conditions and children they employ, then the impact on the environment as such places generally outsource facilities here that are bound to accommodate this green movement and its regulations. i am neutral to either argument. i will admit that it annoys me to the ends of the earth talking on the phone to an indian man that i know is somewhere half way across the world and i will not travel so far to bash his head in with a phone as he insists on calling me once a week to sale me a prescription. there is nothing i can do at this point as restrictions of solicitation only apply to companies based and operated here. it annoys me greatly. as for wanting to help them, i dont mind... but its more effort and costs to go around the world once, then to set up shop here, not pay tariffs, and not waste the necessary fuels and time it takes to ship and reship and delegate from such a distance. i have no problem with letting prisons outsource foreign competition. its healthy competition.

besides why wouldnt i offer them the chance to at some of the leading jobs and careers in the world? if they have the skills that is...

the prisons would flourish in either scenario possibly, but there wouldnt be the disharmony of integrating exconvicts back into society. which is a social problem i have been musing over here and there for some time. (for another argument down the road) But you can't have it both ways. you can't keep the industries under control, and eliminate the need for the gluttonous mismanagement of big gov't by privatizing it. we can work to better refine the checks and balances we have in place, as it is a good system principally, becuz i agree central power just doesnt work today with all the information and people that have to be considered, but we need it in place only to take immideate action in times of crisis, and the smaller sectors then decide when crisis is over. however getting just a tad off the subject at hand. one problem at a time.

where is the benefit to a company keeping up roads? (or any other public service?) i can see the benefit to the subcontractor, he gets paid, and as i work in construction gov't work is sweet money but a bitch collecting, especially where your schools are concerned. roadwork... eh... but the GC on the job? the only way you would be able to entice your private organizations into such an idea would be to show them the bottom line, or in some instances the charity of this. gimik: "buy a mile of highway" and keep it clean... i've seen signs for it. some people go for it, but those are individuals. and again i cant see where the benefit would come in to attack truck drivers and slap them with the hefty costs. maybe with highway costs, but those are called toll plazas and everyone has to pay by weight, and wheel. right? trucks are the lifes blood of this country, we may not like sharing the road with them becuz we have to yeild to them, but w/o them we wouldnt have the vast majority of our goods. even on a small scale, and we were to implement your rail idea, they'd still be needed for the short distances to the store and the the cargo shipper, and then we'd have them cluttering all the back roads instead, and they would still be forced to pay heavy taxes... which would be passed on to the consumer.

of course... you could always build special roads for them to manage all their own so we wouldn't have to play nice with them in traffic. it would involve a lot more construction and redesigning how we run our cities. personally i like the chaos of it all, but the work would be endless, the money would be good, and the order after all might be worth it. i think i am starting to see convicts in a whole new light.

by the way, i personally hate consumerism. cheap poorly manufactured trinkets that people buy and throw away for the next fad the following year is disgusting.

[swivel]

Modern, paved roads were mostly started with private investment from "driving clubs". They went about it in a clever way. Instead of paving roads in town, they would go lay down several miles of asphalt in-between two town. People with cars would brave the rut-filled wagon roads to go out and "speed" up and down the smooth tarmacs. Then, the pressure was on each town to raise money from drivers to pave their own roads out to these "seed roads".

Competition is always best. Right now, the contracts for roads in most states are locked up or secured through bribery. Lots of them work on "cost-plus" schemes which are dreadfully wasteful. Governments tend to ratchet in only one direction, because they can't handle the natural, healthy process of job-loss. Protecting jobs is the worst thing you can do in an economy. It is what caused and sustained the Great Depression.

[I am Legend]

i thought the depression was started by an international cartel of bankers aiming to weaken america by outlawing gold so as to allow the empowering of the federal reserve as our central bank here and therby furthering the cartels influence worldwide in hopes of accomplishing an eventual new world order............................................. .....

[swivel]

i thought the depression was started by an international cartel of bankers aiming to weaken america by outlawing gold so as to allow the empowering of the federal reserve as our central bank here and therby furthering the cartels influence worldwide in hopes of accomplishing an eventual new world order............................................. .....

Hahaha

You trip me out.

The funny thing about the GD is that the famous stock-market crash had almost nothing to do with it. But people still tie those two events together as if one caused the other. There were similar crashes before and since, and several have been worse in terms of percentage value lost. And almost no common Joe was invested at the time. It just hurt the upper class.

The GD was caused by the mechanization of farms, coupled with protectionist politicians attempting to prevent the shift in the economy from 40% in agriculture to 3%, and the resulting plummet in food prices. By trying to protect the profits of the rapidly-shrinking farmer-class (by propping up prices, subsidizing empty fields, burning crops, slaughtering cattle, mandating high wages, not allowing the firing of farm workers, etc...) they basically made the decision to help a few, and FUCK the rest of the country.

Amazing this is, few people in politics or economics understand this, and we do the same bullshit today.