Is The Military Going Too Far?

[Athena]

http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2008/0809/army_brain_wave_0912.jpg

This is a picture of brain scanning sensors that the U.S. military wants to turn into a helmet for soldiers (http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1841108,00.html). The goal of said helmet? Essentially, to pick up and audibly transmit INTERNAL DIALOGUE to other soldiers. The neuroscientist overseeing the project says, "Because soldiers are already trained to talk in clean, clear and formulaic ways, it would be a very small step to have them think that way."

Maybe it's just me, but I feel like we're working ass-backward. Technology is fantastic, really. I've got no qualms with that. It's just that...Shouldn't we be busy turning machines into soldiers rather than turning soldiers into machines? Some of this is simply inhuman. We've already got issues with what may be record numbers of soldiers committing suicide. Do we think that supressing their natural internal dialogue and retraining them to think to themselves in military terms will not present further issue? WHAT ABOUT THE HUMAN ELEMENT?

It's pretty exciting technology, from a theoretical standpoint. To think that my thoughts could one day be picked up and transmitted to someone else without ever opening my mouth is pretty amazing. But, I'm legitimately concerned about the effect being taught how to think might have on people.

[brokenandtwisted]

Lol @ telekinesis.

*Puts down X-Men comic*

What were you saying, Athena? Good in theory, poor in practice in my opinion. I don't need to justify that opinion...because look at the inhumanity behind it.

[Stella]

Yeah, what Athena said. Maybe use the technology to turn machines into soldiers.

I'm saying this as a wife of a former Air Force Sgt. The technology is out there; let's not waste it like this.

Besides, people pretty much know what I'm thinking just by looking at my face since I'm not a trained soldier.

[Just my luck sucks]

I could see where it might come in useful.

Not sure how long it takes an officer to think something to themselves, then formulate an order, speak the order, have the order heard by a soldier, understood by that soldier, and then acted on by that same soldier.

Perhaps this method would be instantaneous? In a heated battle a thought command might save seconds and possibly lives?

[Athena]

Well, sure. The advantages are clear. Being able to communicate without having to speak would be ideal in all sorts of scenarios. I'd think snipers and scouts would get a lot of use out of such technology. But again, what toll will "trained thought" have on a human being? It's one thing for a soldier's body and behavior to be subject to military standards...But internal dialogue? Why don't we all try it for a bit. We've all got internal dialogue - how long can you go saying only work-appropriate things? No thinking, "Damn, I wish it was 5:00 already," or "Brian looks fantastic in those pants..." Just operational speech.

I'm willing to bet it'll take a good deal of training to get a soldier to think like this. Can it be undone?

[Just my luck sucks]

Good point.

I know for a fact, my internal dialogue would have the boss scrambling for cover and the men in the little white coats on the look out for me.

[brokenandtwisted]

Well, sure. The advantages are clear. Being able to communicate without having to speak would be ideal in all sorts of scenarios. I'd think snipers and scouts would get a lot of use out of such technology. But again, what toll will "trained thought" have on a human being? It's one thing for a soldier's body and behavior to be subject to military standards...But internal dialogue? Why don't we all try it for a bit. We've all got internal dialogue - how long can you go saying only work-appropriate things? No thinking, "Damn, I wish it was 5:00 already," or "Brian looks fantastic in those pants..." Just operational speech.

I'm willing to bet it'll take a good deal of training to get a soldier to think like this. Can it be undone?

Wouldn't it depend on the level of thought? We think on different levels. It'll be interesting to read as the technology develops.

[Athena]

Wouldn't it depend on the level of thought? We think on different levels. It'll be interesting to read as the technology develops.

Well, sure, I suppose. If you read the article, it even mentions that soldiers may need to be trained to "think loudly", suggesting that technology might only pick up on especially conscious thought. Still, who knows at this point? No matter which way you slice it, it's still trained thought and, frankly, I don't like the idea of the military fucking with our soldiers' heads any more than they already do. @_@

[Shroomer]

No matter which way you slice it, it's still trained thought and, frankly, I don't like the idea of the military fucking with our soldiers' heads any more than they already do. @_@

That is what I was thinking too, this could not have a positive outcome in the long run.

[Owd Scrat]

The goal of the military has always been to turn men into machines, it always has been. You thought differently? You can't fight wars properly with 1,000's of men that have viewpoints, opinions and question things. They want the vast majority to follow orders, no questions. So this isn't a huge shock.

[Boondock]

I think the technology in and of itself is INCREDIBLY exciting. However, I think the practical applications of it in the military could be very scary. I've never understood why the government chooses to use our volunteer military force as guinea pigs when there's an entire prison population just waiting to be tested! Why not write into the criminal code that any violent or horrific crime can have the added punishment of being used in government experiments. Not just this one, but many others. Or how about offering them up for medical experiments.

I know some people might say that is a violation of the convict's rights. But I say, make the policy well known. If they still choose to go out and do the crime, then they have essentially volunteered for all kinds of experimental testing. Why not as an alternative for a death sentence, inject some of these infant killing mother fuckers with HIV. Then test out all the new drugs and new ideas for treatment and see how it goes.

Sorry, got off on a tangent there. I really think the whole "controlled thought" thing depends on the extent of what this machine will be able to decipher. I mean if they make it so that a soldier has to concentrate a thought at someone in order for it to be transmitted, then I think that renders the whole "internal dialogue" issue moot.

With that said, I still think that it is a VERY dangerous and slippery slope. I think any project such as that would need to be very closely monitored. I also think that it is not something that should be given to the average soldier. I think perhaps restriction to the elite units would be prudent. They tend to be even more disciplined in their thoughts than the average military man and very good at compartmentalizing. I think this would make it easier for them to control what they "thought" at other people.

[Tallulah]

If it can be done, and is,(and it probably will be) If it cant be undone, imagine how many of them will be featured here,...scary!

[crickett]

Good point.

I know for a fact, my internal dialogue would have the boss scrambling for cover and the men in the little white coats on the look out for me.

Trust me, they do NOT really want to know.
I am NOT in favor of this. EVERYONE has the right to some privacy.
Trust me on this. I had a patient come in one day (an adult) when I was working trauma. He had stuck his finger in a metal fan, on a dare no less. He had amputated the finger doing so.
Now, "how fucking stupid" actually DID go through my mind. I had the right to think this. But, it IS better that he NOT know that. I was sympathetic and helpful. I STILL have the right to think "fucking moron". He WAS sober, no less!
DO YOU SEE MY POINT???
Like, I did NOT want to know what was REALLY going through the mind of the tow truck driver when I:
Ran out of gas in RUSH HOUR TRAFFIC, ON THE I-5, GOING THROUGH LOS ANGELES!
I do NOT really want to know. I called AAA, he came out with gas and saved my stupid ass. We were all happy, leave it at that!
Everyone DOES have the right to privacy in their own thoughts.

[Athena]

The goal of the military has always been to turn men into machines, it always has been. You thought differently? You can't fight wars properly with 1,000's of men that have viewpoints, opinions and question things. They want the vast majority to follow orders, no questions. So this isn't a huge shock.

Who said any of this was shocking? We're discussing real application and ethics. Care to join us? ;)

[brokenandtwisted]

Who said any of this was shocking? We're discussing real application and ethics. Care to join us? ;)

I have a pitch...How will this effect the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy? Lol.

[Aelwynn]

I read this while I was on vacation (back now, so I can finally frickin respond).

I know for a fact if they implement that into the military my hubby would be forced to leave his job. He curses out a ton of stupid people a LOT in his head. Most of them are his superiors that are just fuckin lazy.

Imagine how hard it would be, if they used it like they wanted to, to deny that you "said" (in your mind) something to a superior that wasn't true. This could cause some MAJOR issues with he said - she said.

Even if they say it's good to stop the delay between telling 20 people what you want them to do, there's still going to be a delay. Unless this can reach over 30 miles? Hubby has to call off base to give his orders out usually. Most of the people he deals with aren't even in his own office.

If this were to be used in Iraq, it could make post traumatic stress even worse than before. Imagne being shot at and having some random person start talking to you in your head. That could cause some serious issues. I bet most people would freak the hell out.

They can't have found a better use for this technology and since when are the damn soldiers being used as guinea pigs? I think this could be put to use better.

While I will agree that most of the time you shouldn't question your orders, I think sometimes you should. Hubby questions them all the damn time. If he has a moral problem with something, he tells someone higher up than the person that gave him the original order that he refuses to do said order. So I don't see a real problem with the whole questioning orders/making men machines.

I just see a problem with the controversy of causing some serious psychological damage OR all of the random shit that could be said. I can see tons of superiors punishing people for just their "thoughts". However, since "they need to think loudly"...it might not matter? But still...invading someone's private/personal thoughts? That's going a little overboard.

[blue_zombie]

Again, I agree that it's a major step for technology, but given the several examples already listed, private thoughts are private thoughts and sometimes best kept to ones self.

However, in terms of the military, technically soldiers are property of the U.S. Government......so what they do with that property is up to them. I haven't ever signed up, so I'm not sure what the contract entails (maybe someone can enlighten me), but I'm pretty sure you give up quite a bit of "personal & private" thoughts/property/rights. Having known quite a few military members in my time.........they haven't all been rational, clear thinking adults, and that couldn't definitely jeopardize more than do any good. We all make mistakes, and in the formulation of an action, there are several thoughts that go through one's mind. Can you imagine if all those thoughts were acted upon??????? I know that if all my thoughts had an automatic response, I would be behind bars, whether in prison, or the looney bin.

[Aelwynn]

Well, you're allowed to speak your mind etc when in the military. Just watch who the hell you are talking to and what you are saying. Depending on the person you are talking to at that time, you could get into a lot of trouble.

I guess we are on a decently good base here where hubby is friends with all his crew that works with him, so he can say whatever the hell he wants to. But there have been a few instances where he accidentally told off someone he shouldn't of and wound up with guard duty or something stupid. He's since learned to pick and choose his battles as well as minding his mouth until he gets to know people.

Mostly though, it's like a normal job. Some of the "bosses" get pissed when you talk to them like an equal, and some are just plain awesome. However this testing stuff on soldiers...NOT a part of the military at all. I have no idea how the fuck they got away with this.

As for giving up your personal/private rights, that's far from wrong? I might be taking this the wrong way, but what happens at home usually stays at home. His job is one part of his life that doesn't mix with his home or vice versa. So he still has his "privacy" rights.

I guess I don't see Blue Zombie's jump to acting on their thoughts because of this technology. Maybe as a form of "glitch"? That would cause a lot of problems. However, most people don't usually act on their private thoughts anyways so I doubt it would be an issue.

Someone telling you to do something in your head is completely different from some random person going and killing a stranger. Whereas most soldiers use the excuse "I was following orders", a lot DO question their orders. Most have morals they stand by and refuse to drop. Therefore if they weren't a blood thirsty killer before, I doubt anyone talking into their head (superior or not) would go batso and kill people. But if they did, they'd just blame the "voices".