Is YOUR Child on Anti-Psychotics?

[Athena]

He or she may not need them and they may have negative long term effects. Is that risk worth a more easily controlled child?

Anti-psychotic drug use soars in UK children, too
By LINDSEY TANNER, AP Medical Writer
Mon May 5, 12:15 AM ET

CHICAGO - American children take anti-psychotic medicines at about six times the rate of children in the United Kingdom, according to a comparison based on a new U.K. study.

Does it mean U.S. kids are being over-treated? Or that U.K. children are being under-treated?

Experts say that's almost beside the point, because use is rising on both sides of the Atlantic. And with scant long-term safety data, it's likely the drugs are being over-prescribed for both U.S. and U.K. children, research suggests.

Among the most commonly used drugs were those to treat autism and hyperactivity.

In the U.K. study, anti-psychotics were prescribed for 595 children at a rate of less than four per 10,000 children in 1992. By 2005, 2,917 children were prescribed the drugs at a rate of seven per 10,000 — a near-doubling, said lead author Fariz Rani, a researcher at the University of London's pharmacy school.

The study is being released Monday in the May edition of the journal Pediatrics.

By contrast, an earlier U.S. study found that nearly 45 American children out of 10,000 used the drugs in 2001 versus more than 23 per 10,000 in 1996.

There are big differences that could help explain the vastly higher U.S. rate.

A recent report in The Lancet suggested that the U.K.'s universal health care system limits prescribing practices there. The report also said direct-to-consumer ads are more common in the United States. These ads raise consumer awareness and demand for medication.

While drug company ties with doctors are common in both the U.S. and U.K., Vanderbilt University researcher Wayne Ray said U.K. physicians generally are more conservative about prescribing psychiatric drugs. Ray co-authored the U.S. study, published in 2004.

The new U.K. study, involving 1992-2005 health records of more than 16,000 children, is the first large examination of these drugs in U.K. children. It found the increase was mostly in medicines that haven't been officially approved for kids. They were most commonly prescribed for behavior and conduct disorders, which include attention deficit disorder.

Side effects including weight gain, nervous-system problems and heart trouble have been reported in children using these drugs and there's little long-term evidence about whether they're safe for them, the study authors said.

Continued article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080505/ap_on_he_me/psych_drugs_children;_ylt=Ai5J.6E87I6yxOZ7AcF_3vkD W7oF)

__________________

So many parents put their children at risk to anesthetize them for easier handling. It disgusts me. Not all children are easy to handle. That doesn't mean there's something chemically wrong with them.

[Jaded]

Definite over-use of such medications...and totally unecessary in most cases. I was threatened with having my children removed from my home because I refused to put my son on Ritalin. I fought with the school district and DHS for a YEAR over that. In the school district where I live, 8 out of 10 children are on some type of psychotropic drug. It's bullshit....like a bunch of little zombies running around. That is why I homeschool....

[Rotten Apple]

So many parents put their children at risk to anesthetize them for easier handling. It disgusts me. Not all children are easy to handle. That doesn't mean there's something chemically wrong with them.


I think that alot of people are being mislead. It is actually the schools that insist on these children being medicated most of the time. My brother was required to take meds for ADHD while he was in school. When the teachers felt that they weren't "working" they always requested that his dosage be re-evaluated and maybe increased. During the summers, my father and stepmother would just take him off the meds. Even though he acted like a little psycho most of the time, they just handled it.

I have a girlfriend that also chose to homeschool over the constant requests by her sons public school teachers to increase his dosages of ADHD meds.

I'm not sure what meds this particular article is talking about, but I know one of the main concern of both my father and stepmother and my girlfriend is that the drugs caused loss of appetite. Both boys would lose a considerable amount of weight while on these drugs.

[Jaded]

If parents would do a little research on these drugs the docs are handing out like candy they would be terrified! Ritalin is called Kiddie-Cocaine for fucks sake! Crackheads have been known to cut Ritalin in with the coke for a higher high. Besides that, the testing criteria to diagose ADHD is bullshit. Almost EVERY child and adult could be considered ADHD based on the 'test.'

[Athena]

I think that alot of people are being mislead. It is actually the schools that insist on these children being medicated most of the time. My brother was required to take meds for ADHD while he was in school. When the teachers felt that they weren't "working" they always requested that his dosage be re-evaluated and maybe increased.

What?!? Oh, man. That is fucking wack. How is it legal for a school to require behavior meds? Was he in private school?

[TheLittleFriend]

I had to remove my son from preschool because the teachers complained that his behavior was "hyper". He is four year old and he love to hop and run around the house 24/7.....do you call this behavior "hyper"? One of teachers called DHS....to my surprise, DHS visited to my home. I was pissed off, BIG TIME. But I cooperated. DHS suggested me to take him to doctor, have him to check out. They suspected my son might have ADHD. I didn't believe them. Soon, I enrolled him in different preschool....his behavior is same and they did not complain. They said, "Oh, that's what all four year olds are.....all highly active and happy."

[Rotten Apple]

What?!? Oh, man. That is fucking wack. How is it legal for a school to require behavior meds? Was he in private school?

Nope, public school.

It was actually the school that had him tested and evaluated. Same for my friends child. In my experience, it is not usually the parents or the family's doctors that are bringing up these meds in the first place. It is usually the school.

Mind you, this is the same school district. My brother is 20 now and the my friends son is 8. Things have not changed much over the years.

[Nell]

When my second daughter was in the first grade my mother was called in for a meeting to discuss her behavior. They said she figeted all through reading and storytime, talked to much and was distracting to others. They had already had her evaluated by the schools counselor and they were suggesting we put her on medication. Luckily my mother isn't a blind follower and suggested maybe she was just bored. When they tested her she was reading at a 4th grade level already. As soon as she was moved to 4th grade reading she settled down.

We later found out almost half of the kids in her class were medicated. And this is a public school.

[Miss. Hill]

I had to remove my son from preschool because the teachers complained that his behavior was "hyper". He is four year old and he love to hop and run around the house 24/7.....do you call this behavior "hyper"? One of teachers called DHS....to my surprise, DHS visited to my home. I was pissed off, BIG TIME. But I cooperated. DHS suggested me to take him to doctor, have him to check out. They suspected my son might have ADHD. I didn't believe them. Soon, I enrolled him in different preschool....his behavior is same and they did not complain. They said, "Oh, that's what all four year olds are.....all highly active and happy."

My son is hyper (he's 4) and when I leave him at the playroom at the gym or at the grocery store I warn them. He will be attending
preschool in the fall, I know he is not ADHD, if they came at me with that I would be furious. For DHS to show up, wtf how dare they!

Why must we label children "hyperactive"? I understand there are children who may need help, in severe situations but not all children need meds and a label. It's like a depressed adult we all get fucking depressed from time to time and if coping skills and stress relief in natural ways don't work over a reasonable amount of time than help should be sought out. Help should be temporary and after time if this doesnt work a "label" and meds may be needed. It seems to me if you are depressed for a week you can go to the Dr and walk out a manic depressive with a bag full off mind altering pills, it's like giving up, I don't get it.

The same thing is happening with kids going through phases of unruliness that most will out grow they get a label and a fist full of pills, it's all fucked up. Money is to be made and zombie children are produced!

[w8ng4msrgt]

There are also parents out there wanting to get that diagnosis. They want the special needs classes and all the kickers that come from those programs.

[Athena]

I had a friend over for dinner last night. She is the walking manifestation of inaccurate diagnosis. She graduated from the University of Washington with a high gpa and a degree in journalism. While in school, her doctor diagnosed her with adult ADHD. I couldn't believe it and begged her not to buy in to it. I implored her to please get a second opinion. ADHD is characterized by debilitating behavioral issues...The kind that would prevent such a successful acedemic career. How any self-respecting doctor could make such a clearly improper diagnosis was entirely beyond me.

I quit hassling her about the antidepressants some time ago. Those are also unnecessary, but, hell...I guess some people want to be medicated.

I still can't wrap my head around schools advocating these medications, especially when we don't have conclusive long-term data. Around here, it seems rare that schools are the entities that suggest medication. In my experience, it's been driven by parents/doctors.

[Raq me darkly]

There are editorials in the local papers by some parent who is furious at some local school for saying they need to drug their child into a stupor. I am relatively certain that most kids who have a pulse can be diagnosed ADHD anymore.

[Jaded]

I guess what bothers me most is the fact that in some states, I'll have to check my research again to pinpoint which ones, children CAN be removed from the home if parents don't agree to the medication. I have read of a case or two where they were removed and forced to take Ritalin before they would be returned to the parents. I did a paper on this particular subject just last year....TONS of info on it. I was pissed off by the time the paper was finished. :mad:

[TheLittleFriend]

children CAN be removed from the home if parents don't agree to the medication. I have read of a case or two where they were removed and forced to take Ritalin before they would be returned to the parents.

I feel this is abuse.

[Miss. Hill]

I guess what bothers me most is the fact that in some states, I'll have to check my research again to pinpoint which ones, children CAN be removed from the home if parents don't agree to the medication. I have read of a case or two where they were removed and forced to take Ritalin before they would be returned to the parents. I did a paper on this particular subject just last year....TONS of info on it. I was pissed off by the time the paper was finished. :mad:

That's so wrong, how can that be? If you choose alternative methods for dealing with a child who may be classified as ADHD or whatever, how can they interfere?

As a parent it is my choice what treatment I choose for my child. As long as the issue is addressed and some course of treatment is taking place who has right to choose which form you use?

That pisses me off!:mad:

[impqueen]

My elder spawn has a rip-roaring case of OCD. Some of it is trauma-induced from childhood events beyond her and my control, but frankly, a lot of it is her personality. And then there's the aspect of it that is controllable and dealt with via Lexapro.

We never dreamed of medicating the spawnlet when she was a kid. She's brilliant, a very high achiever, and with some talk therapy to deal with the trauma, and TJ and me busting our asses to get her safe and keep her safe, she was mostly okay, most of the time. We knew there would be issues as she got older, and we planned for those while not treating her (or me) like a victim. So she was high maintenance, but fine. Brilliantly fine, generally.

Then came college and the spawnlet lost her shit. Lost. It. As in I thought i was gonna have to drive to BFE Conservatory and pick her ass up and call it a good try. Her OCD exacerbated so badly that she couldn't eat at all, ever, without testing her blood sugar before and after, and that was the kindest of her symptoms. My 4.0 genius child was flipping the fuck OUT. And really, there didn't seem to be a reason we could pin down other than that college wasn't able to constantly work around her OCD the way I always had at home.

We got in touch with her old therapist, who tried to work with her but with little help, and we had to do something quick before the kid washed out of her conservatory and her secondary major and lost her full ride. We didn't have time to dick around looking for root causes - we spent years on the root cause when she was a kid. We know what that is. And frankly, she didn't want to be drugged and we didn't want to drug her. But she was desperate for relief.

So we went to the doctor, and he prescribed a Lexapro trial, and it was amazing. Within weeks she was back to her old self again. I can tell when she stops taking it, and she often does because she doesn't want to be medicated. But when she isn't taking her meds, she decompensates about as fast as the drug leaves her system. It's not a matter of being inconvenient, it's a matter of being utterly incapacitated.

She's been on since late September (she was still legally a kid then) and we are thinking of trying to wean her off not this summer, but next. She will probably try to take herself off it this summer - she tried over Christmas and by January she was a mess and had to go back on, so we'll see. I don't want her to live her life medicated. But I do want her to be happy, and functional, and able to do the things she wants to do. If a pill will allow her to do it, yay for the pill.

That whole thing was just to say that no, we didn't want her medicated until she was old enough to be an active, knowledgeable participant in her care. So we did cartwheels around it and cut her toast into twelve equal slices and arranged the cereal boxes by color and rinsed all her clothes twice and never touched her room if she was home and insert s hundred other modifications here. That may not work for everyone, but it worked for us. I wouldn't medicate except as a last resort but if it comes to that last resort, I think parents and kids should work together to do whatever is necessary for the child.

Oh, and she still has the OCD - it's just more manageable with the meds than without. I just took a one-hour phone call during finals week to make sure I had the proper groceries in the house before she gets home. Le sigh.

/book :)

[Nell]

Imp, you are an awesome mother! I had some problems like that, not as bad but bad enough. I hated to have any of my stuff touched for instance. My mom and sister would rearrange my furniture to make me "get used to the real world." It used to make me cry. That sucked. Your daughter is lucky, lucky, lucky.

[Athena]

I wouldn't medicate except as a last resort but if it comes to that last resort, I think parents and kids should work together to do whatever is necessary for the child.


That be real.

Unfortunately, medication is all-too-often looked at as simply "a method of treatment" rather than a last resort. I'm definitely not anti-medication and I realize that certain circumstances necessitate its use. Realistically, though, how many parents run the gambit of therapy options before coming to that conclusion? Far too few, in my experience.

...and I'm still just pissed that schools push that shit. Honestly, it does a disservice to those who truly require chemical treatment.

[Zora]

My 25-year-old daughter, every so often, will decide that she's fine ... no need for meds. (She's been medicated for severe OCD and panic disorder since middle school.)

Every. Single. Time. She melts into a horrifying puddle of brain dysfunction and realizes she really does need pharmacuetical help. Probably forever. (Or until she feels strong enough to try life without the pills again.)

It's enough to break a mom's heart.

But in the same breath I say, this mom doesn't like to imagine where we'd be without the meds.

[impqueen]

That be real.

Unfortunately, medication is all-too-often looked at as simply "a method of treatment" rather than a last resort. I'm definitely not anti-medication and I realize that certain circumstances necessitate its use. Realistically, though, how many parents run the gambit of therapy options before coming to that conclusion? Far too few, in my experience.

...and I'm still just pissed that schools push that shit. Honestly, it does a disservice to those who truely require chemical treatment.

Agreed.

I have a brother (damn, listen to me rattle about the personal shit today!) who was diagnosed with a number of disorders from a very young age. My parents, at the very end of their ropes and trying to keep his ass in junior high, reluctantly allowed a few drug trials at the request of school counselors.

All it did was allow him access to chemicals he could alter and use for recreational purposes. Which he did. With great creativity and attention to detail never once shown in a school setting. Then he sold them for a profit and started cooking meth in his bedroom.

So, y'know, not for everyone, the psychotropics. Not by a long shot.

[Athena]

Christ.

I'm awfully glad that I'm touched by issues that don't require medication. In fact, while my friends marvel and woe over my degree of emotional "distance", I find that it works for me quite well. No, I'll never know the heights of joy that causes one to, say, cry at a wedding, nor will I experience the depths of sorrow that comes with the death of a pet, but I can live with that. When everything's always been a bit muted, you don't really notice until someone else brings it up. :p

[Raq me darkly]

So, Impqueen, how does it feel to have Adrianna Monk for a daughter ;) That took a lot of guts and strength that I am sure a lot of people lack.


That's so wrong, how can that be? If you choose alternative methods for dealing with a child who may be classified as ADHD or whatever, how can they interfere?

As a parent it is my choice what treatment I choose for my child. As long as the issue is addressed and some course of treatment is taking place who has right to choose which form you use?

That pisses me off!:mad:

While I agree with you wholeheartedly, Miss Hill, I am sure the parents whose children are taken away by CPS because of religious medical reasons feel the same way. In CPS's "western medical" mind, often alternative treatment is equal to no treatment.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

Far to many subject kids to medication in order to handle THEIR OWN inabilities or laziness - both parents at home and teachers in schools. Either they don't know, care, or want to deal with what may be the real reason (from simple kids being kids to bored kids to other reasons that meds may only mask.)

Schools use the threat of CPS to get parents "in line". The middle school here wanted stepson tested for ADD. He was a handful but not unmanageable. I shopped around and found a doctor of like mind. NO meds. Found the problem - He was far above his grade and needed a challenge and to be kept busy. School then had to accomodate that... they wanted the easy way rather than the right way.

He is now in college to become a history teacher after a 4yr stint in the Navy. He has no problem working full time and school full time. He's just a guy who will always successfully have a bunch of irons in the fire.

[celtic friend]

I think that alot of people are being mislead. It is actually the schools that insist on these children being medicated most of the time. My brother was required to take meds for ADHD while he was in school. When the teachers felt that they weren't "working" they always requested that his dosage be re-evaluated and maybe increased. During the summers, my father and stepmother would just take him off the meds. Even though he acted like a little psycho most of the time, they just handled it.

I have a girlfriend that also chose to homeschool over the constant requests by her sons public school teachers to increase his dosages of ADHD meds.

I'm not sure what meds this particular article is talking about, but I know one of the main concern of both my father and stepmother and my girlfriend is that the drugs caused loss of appetite. Both boys would lose a considerable amount of weight while on these drugs.


From what I know, teachers are not allowed to even ask a child if they took their medicine. They are not allowed to suggest medicine, they are only allowed to say that the child is acting up or is hyper.
You on your own have to get help from someone, then have them send papers to be filled out with the Conner's scale and other info on them, you have to sign the paper for permission to discuss treatment. You have rights, you can also deny them the right to even test your child for learning disablilities, at least that is the way it is here.
Now that is not saying that stuff hasn't changed in recent and that the teachers can't make your life miserable, but the ball is really in your court when it comes to treatment for conditions that do not make your child a risk to himself or others.

[celtic friend]

I wanted to also point out that ADHD meds are not anti-psychotic meds, having ADHD does not make you psychotic anyway.

Anti-psychotics tend to have a lot of side effects, much stronger than any ADHD med.

[impqueen]

So, Impqueen, how does it feel to have Adrianna Monk for a daughter ;)

Hehhhh. We call her Monk. She loves the show and likes to point out that she's not that bad, except when she is. ;)

Actually, it's awesome. The brain power that goes along with some types of OCD is a wonder to behold. My kid read on her own before she was three and taught herself calculus at nine. Schoolwork was never an issue except when she got bored, which was often. So in that regard, it's great. And she's sweet (usually) and loving (always) and fun and honest and loyal. She can also go off-book on a full length play script after one, at most two readings and sing most opera correctly regardless of language after one or two listens. I'm not at all proud, or anything :D

So the OCD, it's a small price to pay, the kid thinks. There was a debate here once that touched on whether some mental "disorders" are just by-products of other gifts. That may well be true. But I'd like the spawn to be able to function in the world.

All the brains the universe has to offer can't help her if she's afraid to leave the house because nobody will have organic peach yogurt with seven walnuts on top arranged in a circle. ;)

[Rotten Apple]

From what I know, teachers are not allowed to even ask a child if they took their medicine. They are not allowed to suggest medicine, they are only allowed to say that the child is acting up or is hyper.
You on your own have to get help from someone, then have them send papers to be filled out with the Conner's scale and other info on them, you have to sign the paper for permission to discuss treatment. You have rights, you can also deny them the right to even test your child for learning disablilities, at least that is the way it is here.
Now that is not saying that stuff hasn't changed in recent and that the teachers can't make your life miserable, but the ball is really in your court when it comes to treatment for conditions that do not make your child a risk to himself or others.

Really? That must vary from state to state.

This is what definitely happened here and like I said caused my friend to home school her child. My brothers medication was actually kept in the nurse's office at the school and administered to him there. So they knew for sure he was taking it and even made him open his mouth and would check under his tongue to make sure he actually swallowed it. He was spitting it out there for a while.

And the teachers DID ask and suggest having his dosage upped. My father and stepmother attended many a parent teacher conference. My brother is definitely a true case of ADHD, I will not deny that. But like I said. My family was able to handle it during the summers without meds.

[celtic friend]

Just wanted to say that my son has ADHD, OCD and recently we were told he has depression, he is 7. He told a fellow student that he was going to commit suicide, that was the only time the school ever really stepped in and made me get him help. He wasn't serious and he even said he wasn't but still due to LIABILITY issues for the school we had to pick him up and have him taken to a center to be evaluated. He was deemed to not be a threat, and could return to school. We took him to get another evaluation and this is what we were told he has.
He was on ADHD medicine at the time, so we had to discontinue their use. I see both sides of this issue. You want your child to be successful in school, most ADHD kids are smart, mine is very, he is in advanced class, but he can't focus for shit. Imagine his potential if he could concentrate and did not need to sit on a Yoga ball in class to keep from roaming the room? In Europe they do not really believe in ADHD so I am told, I found out that the kids with ADHD there are just considered the kids, where school is not for them. Well my son is too smart for me to just give up on. I do not like the idea of meds, we fought against them for a long time, only after much discussion did we consider it. Straterra did not work, Adderall caused insomnia, and now FocalinXR only worked temporarily, then plateaued and we would not up his meds. When this happened he was on small dose. Now we are told that he needs a different type of medicine, and we are waiting till we get our follow up app. to see how this all goes.
I really did not believe in this whole ADHD thing, I did believe in OCD, because I have it, it is not that bad right now.
I think maybe he just has OCD and is hyper like me.
Well anyway, he is doing Ok in school right now, the same he was doing when he was on medicine. He gets strikes, but oh well until we get that follow up app. Just wanted to clarify that we have always worked with the school, but never had to get anything done, they did have conferences though.
As for ADHD and all of those mental illnesses, just cause you can't see it doesn't mean it is not there. Is it over diagnosed, of course, but I really believe some people have ADHD and they can not learn the way the schools are set up.

[ImmortalOne]

I have heard teachers talking about how hyper children are "these days" and that parents aren't controlling their kids diets and so forth. I had teachers tell me they thought my daughter had ADHD as well and I just laughed at them. My opinion is "yeah right, kick her out of school, I dare you".

People often expect children to be "chilled" and to sit down and do busy work just to keep them out of their hair. The normal child, who needs to be outside running around and playing and being loud, are now expected to lose those childlike parts of themselves. All too often people seem to expect young children to be more like small adults instead of children. They have forgotten that children are SUPPOSED to be "hyper", that is part of what we old people envy about youth!

My husband studied psychology and still has his books from those classes. It is too sick to see these children all drugged up because it makes the adults in their lives want more "peace and quiet" and think that the perfect family has children who are miraculously behaved.

[celtic friend]

Maybe, it does vary from state to state Kathy. I am not sure, I will ask the the school counselors when I see them again. My C never takes his medicine during the summer either. Not sure what we will do with this new diagnoses though.

Again, I agree it is definitely over diagnosed, especially among our boys.
There are true cases of it though. I think of how they must feel. Constantly, being told they are wrong for not being able to sit still, eating their clothes, biting their nails down to the end, not being to stop thinking or moving to concentrate on their work, awkward in social situations.
It took us a long time to admit C has a problem, Dh still doesn't really believe in the medicine aspect. I don't think the pills work all that great either, they are supposedly going to try him on a total different kind of med, due to the OCD, I don't really want to try anything at all, but I hope that if we really have to, we can find something that works. Medicine is only one aspect of treatment, it should include a 504 plan, therapy, and eliminating caffiene.

I go back and forth on the medication issue. I think when it is matters of the mind we tend to treat them differently because we can not "really" see them and the medications have so many side effects.

[swivel]

celtic friend, it sounds like you just have a very bright kid. You know what those kids do in school? They get bored. Because the teacher is going too slow, or is telling your son shit he already knows.

When I was in school, there was no ADHD, but I would have been diagnosed with it if there was. My solution was to take my own books into class and read them under the desk. When the teacher called on me, I would ask if she would kindly repeat the question, and then answer it. I got nothing but A's and aced every National exam they threw at me. Still, even with the book-reading, I spent a lot of time sent out of class because I was bored out of my skull and couldn't sit still. I wanted to be out running laps around the school, I had so much energy.

Soccer, football, track, and cross country helped a ton. I started working out every morning before school, running a few miles or doing tons of push-ups and sit-ups. In highschool, this worked wonders for me, as it made me exhausted enough to enjoy sitting down for classes. You could try to get your kid to exhaust some of that energy in healthy ways, even teach him how to play games in his head (I used to reconstruct chess games from our chess club in my head during class).

The best solution would be to challenge him. Figure out what it would take to help him skip a grade. It would be better for him to struggle in 9th grade than cause problems in 8th grade. A little home-schooling and some summer programs and you can probably push him ahead a year.

[Athena]

Did you ever skip a year, swivel? I'm curious because every kid I know who skipped a year absolutely hated it, from a social perspective. I wonder if you might have had a different experience.


Celtic Friend - There may be a gifted program that exists in the area. These programs aren't often advertised and, instead, operate via teacher referral, but there are other ways to get in. If such a program exists in your area, your student won't be stuck with kids who may be bigger and older (and who will likely harbor resentment) just to get the appropriate amount of stimulation. Hell, depending on how gifted your student is, the next grade may still not stimulate him enough.

In my experience, gifted programs are the ideal solution for understimulated students, as it circumvents the social isolation skipping a grade can occasionally cause. Your student will be surrounded by students of similiar intellectual capacity and will get educational opportunities that take full advantage of his ability. Unfortunately, funding does not support programs like this in every district. But they may be willing to bus him out of district, if there's a program close enough.

[celtic friend]

TY, for imput.
I don't know what to do. We pondered switching to a Quaker school because they learn more montesorri style. He is very smart. He aces everything too, and he only has trouble showing how he got his work, he read before everyone else, knows all of my older son's homework, more than my older son. we got him advanced books, and he has fun with them, he does Karate, he HATES it, but we make him. He hyperfocuses on games, and could stay up 24 hours a day if we let him, one day he did, he told me he forgot to go to sleep. He does parapillia (sp), he says things to himself before talking to other people. He has the most bizarre diet, he would never touch typical kids foods. He hates bread, LOL. He is very stubborn.
We got a letter a little while ago about how he has advanced so much in his reading, he is like incredible with how much he can learn while only paying attention half assed.
Were you sloppy with your work? Cause he is incredibly. He reminds me of my Dad, he was a member of MENSA but almost failed HS, not because he was stupid, but because he did not care. My Dad also skipped 2nd or 3rd grade. My Dad would have had ADHD if it was diagnosed back then too. My Dad was very neat though, and had alot of OCD tendencies.
I have to find out what makes my son tick and we are trying believe me, he will never be an easy kid, and that is Ok, but we want him to be a happy kid.

[Rotten Apple]

You know that sounds about right. My brother actually graduated from HS a year early, even though he is still a total fuck up.

Wouldn't it suck if the truth was they have dumbed down the curriculum so much so that "no child gets left behind" that they are having to drug the bright ones? What kind of bizarro education system would that be?

[celtic friend]

There is a gifted program, he is in an advanced class right now. He still is all over the place.
You know he is great at sudoku, that is one of his things he enjoys.

[impqueen]

Did you ever skip a year, swivel? I'm curious because every kid I know who skipped a year absolutely hated it, from a social perspective. I wonder if you might have had a different experience.

Athena, not to harp on my elder spawn, but she did skip a year and it was the best thing we ever did. She was bored. She was charging admission to the playground and only the cool people got past the rope. She did a book report on Little Women in the first grade and was accused of not reading it herself, and she called her teacher an "ignorant guttersnipe". She told the first grade about fallopian tubes.

Yeah, we had to skip her. And there was no struggle. She never made so much as a B after that, and socially she did extremely well both in the gifted programs and in her regular classes. In high school, she just made it a running joke that she was the baby so she couldn't drive, and as soon as she got her car her senior year she spent months "paying back" rides - but nobody ever gave her shit about her age. I don't think most people even noticed.

I started kindergarten early and also skipped a year, and it never was a problem for me, even though I didn't drive until I was a senior either. I just don't really remember it coming up as an issue. I couldn't figure out why we had to go to the school board to get Elder Spawn skipped, it was weird. Sometimes it's the best thing you can do for a smart kid, unless they're socially delayed. I was the smallest in my class, but that was kind of a cute thing for me, being a girl. For a boy i can imagine that might be harder.

My son is quite small for his age and very bright, but also fairly docile and willing to be bored in school some (we do enrichment at home, but he opted out of the gifted program by making patterns out of the test ovals. One was a flower, one was an airplane.) Because he is small, and because his intelligence lies more in areas mechanical and math than in writing, we chose to let him be nearly six when he started kindergarten. He will graduate at 18 but turn 19 as he starts his freshman year of college. That's working out great for him. Of the two, he is definitely my easier child.

Elder Spawn is a college sophomore this semester and will be nearly a junior by credits by the time she is 19. That doesn't make her superior to ImpSpawn II, it just means she thrives in a different learning environment. Let the kid choose their learning style, and most of the time the kid will choose wisely. It's not like we really "raise" them anyway - we just facilitate their growth, if we're lucky.

I think each kid is different. /book again. I gotta stay out of this thread, it makes me too wordy. :D

[Athena]

He reminds me of my Dad, he was a member of MENSA but almost failed HS, not because he was stupid, but because he did not care. My Dad also skipped 2nd or 3rd grade. My Dad would have had ADHD if it was diagnosed back then too. My Dad was very neat though, and had alot of OCD tendencies.


You're sounding like a long lost sister. :p

On an off note - It seems like the "genius-as-fuckup" thing is largely male-specific. I was never bored in school (mostly due to that advanced track), never had disciplinary problems, never had trouble showing my work (which seems to be a common issue among gifted males), etc. Now, my family is unusually thick with Mensa-qualifiers, most of whom are men. All of these men have encountered difficulty with the tendencies you listed. I know quite a few brilliant girls, and I've never witnessed that problem in them.

Swivel? Do you happen to know if there's anything to that, or is my experience having never encountered a female genius-fuckup simply coincidence?

[swivel]

he says things to himself before talking to other people.

That's fucking crazy. I used to do the same thing, and had to work very hard to break that habit. I would "test" a sentence out in a whisper before I said it aloud. Also, I had a habit of counting EVERYTHING. And, if I touched the inside of my mouth with my tongue, I had to touch the other side with my tongue, because it would be "jealous" if I didn't. Same with brushing up against a wall, I would have to go do the exact brush on the other wall.

I broke all of these habits except for one, I still can't do anything repetitive without counting. If I'm putting ice in my glass, I count in my head even though I don't care how many cubes I get. I was shoveling dirt yesterday and caught myself counting several times.


Were you sloppy with your work? Cause he is incredibly. He reminds me of my Dad, he was a member of MENSA but almost failed HS, not because he was stupid, but because he did not care

Extremely sloppy in some ways, inordinately neat in others. My handwriting is for shit, but I do like to have my things organized. Not OCD, but just not cluttered. The reason I half-assed stuff is because I found that my 50% effort won the praise of everyone around me. Why do more? It wasn't until I got into college that I decided to give it 100%. I started wanting a perfect score on every test. My challenge to myself was to ruin any chance of a curve for any other student. Not to be mean, but to prove that the curriculum was fair. I would read every text book ahead of the scheduled date and pretended that I was going to be teaching the class. I also found that wearing a coat and tie to class, and carrying a briefcase, made a difference in how I approached school.

Fuck. I really hope your kid doesn't turn out like me...


Athena: The only grade I skipped was my senior year. I had been taking AP courses since 9th grade, and someone told me towards the end of my junior year that I could take one English class and be done, so I did it. But my birthday is in June, so I really was only 6 months ahead of other people when I went to college. I wasted a year in a technical college later, so it all evened out. (except that I met Morbid there, and wouldn't be here otherwise {on dreamindemon, Morbid never saved my life}).

Yes, the dysfunctional genius is heavily skewed towards the male. Autism is now considered an "Extreme Male Brain". Hyper rationality, low impulse control, lack of empathy. The "Geek Disease" is a high-functioning autism called "Asperger's". My guess is that many more men suffer from this than we are aware. I would put the figure at 5-6% of the male population. My guess is that some sequence of genes on the 'X' chromosome controls autism, so men are twice as likely to be stuck with a recessive form, with no backup in place.

[Miss. Hill]

While I agree with you wholeheartedly, Miss Hill, I am sure the parents whose children are taken away by CPS because of religious medical reasons feel the same way. In CPS's "western medical" mind, often alternative treatment is equal to no treatment.

I truly see your point, I just don't think a child in need of antibiotics and not getting them and dying as a result of religious beliefs is the same as choosing behavior therapy for a hyper child over Ritalin.

Religious beliefs and the avoidance of help of a truly sick child and the choice to not numb your child for the sake of teachers and care givers are two different things.

If a child that has attempted behaviour therapy and is still out of control (I am not denying there are children who need medication just not as many that are receiving it) than of course maybe someone needs to step in as parents may be in denial.


As far as OCD goes, after my 2nd son and 1 year of counting every hair in my hair brush, running my hands through my hair every 5 minutes counting each hair (wow I was a freak haha) seeing 10 dermatologists(who told me I was fine), reading everything and anything I could get my hands on and still obsessing over hair loss that was not occurring (I swear every balding women on the earth met me that year to cause me extended anxiety). I decided to go on celexa for postpartum and OCD. I was on for 6 months than over next 3 months tapered myself off. I'm great now (3 years later) and grateful that shits over cause I was a mess!

I am very aware of OCD, depression, schizophrenia, etc.. my family has a history of mental illness. I have seen my mother and grandmother struggle my whole life. Every person and every situation is different. Before a person commits to a life long regimen of meds I believe wholeheartedly they should attempt therapy and learning coping skills first. I feel a lot of people give up and lose quality of life instead of fighting for their personal sanity. We all have 1 life to live I don't want to live mine doped up if not necessary or for recreation (lol).

Now that's not to say there are not people who absolutely should be on meds as well as getting therapy, my mother and grandmother included. If you can not help yourself after therapy and you know you need help than it should truly be sought out! I just feel it's the easy road and a cop out for some people (those who abuse the system mainly like SSI)! Just my opinion (and we know whats said about opinions :) )

[Athena]

Athena, not to harp on my elder spawn, but she did skip a year and it was the best thing we ever did.

Interesting. Perhaps this is gender-specific, too? Girls do tend to be more social creatures. Perhaps they simply assimilate more easily? Admittedly, I've never known a girl who has skipped a grade. Obviously, in my district, any kid who would have skipped a grade wound up in the gifted program.

I also started kindergarten early. I was the youngest person in my graduating class. I never had any problems because of this, but I figured it was because it was always like that (I started out the youngest kid)...and because I was bigger than everyone anyway. :p Perhaps I was wrong.

In the early 80s, in the Seattle area, there were a rash of kidnappings. In response, local school districts pushed an anti-kidnapping campaign. When I was three, my mother took me down to the district administration building because they were taking pictures of kids to be filed with the district so that, if a kid went missing and parents were not immediately available for some reason, the school would have a picture to provide police. The receptionist pointed us to a room down the hall and asked us to take a seat outside it. Someone would come out and get us.

After a few minutes, a man came out and got me. He told my mom that it would only be a few minutes and to wait there. After some time, the man escorted me back to my mother and, with a rather puzzled expression, said, "Ma'am? I'm not sure what you thought was wrong...but your daughter is 99th percentile." Well, as you can imagine, my mother was equally confused, at this point.

Come to find out that the pictures were being taken in a room down a different hallway. The room we had been directed to was set up to test children whose parents thought they might be deaf or autistic. :p

Thanks to this mistake, however, it was recommended that I begin school immediately, although my mother felt more comfortable waiting until I turned 4. The man also made her aware of the Challenge Program at this time and let her know that the test I had just taken automatically qualified me.

Because of the nature of the program, Challenge teachers were kind of spread out throughout the district. The first grade teacher happened to be at the same school I went to kindergarten for, so I did K and 1st at the school closest to home. The 2nd and 3rd grade teachers were at another school in the district, though, so I had to be bussed over there. 4th, 5th and 6th grades were held at a school even farther away. It was fine, though, because it was the same set of kids every year, just like a normal class.

The only downside was that, at every school, the average students recognized us as "the nerd class". It wasn't a big deal, because us "nerds" were playing together on the playground, anyway. The average kids weren't particularly mean about it, either. We would always play football at recess on Fridays - the nerds against the regular kids. Us nerds would always lose. After a particularly frustrating defeat, a regular kid gave me some shit, so I shot back, "Yeah? Well, we'd blow you out of the water if this was an aptitude test!" We were definitely nerds. Especially me, apparently. I've got a classmate who I see on occasion who will NOT let me live that shit down, ever.

I digress. You're right, Imp - every kid IS different. It sounds like skipping grades can be very beneficial, as well.

[Jaded]

If I'm putting ice in my glass, I count in my head even though I don't care how many cubes I get. I was shoveling dirt yesterday and caught myself counting several times.

I do the same thing...I've never met anyone else that does it. It hit me in my late 20's and has progressed.

[Athena]

Yes, the dysfunctional genius is heavily skewed towards the male. Autism is now considered an "Extreme Male Brain". Hyper rationality, low impulse control, lack of empathy. The "Geek Disease" is a high-functioning autism called "Asperger's". My guess is that many more men suffer from this than we are aware. I would put the figure at 5-6% of the male population. My guess is that some sequence of genes on the 'X' chromosome controls autism, so men are twice as likely to be stuck with a recessive form, with no backup in place.

I'm all too familiar with Asperger's Syndrome. In my adulthood, I've now dated two men who suffer from the condition and, as a result, have paid a great deal of attention to that particular brand of autism spectrum disorder. (What can I say? I'm hopelessly attracted to clinical thought and behavior. *shrugs*) I suppose I just assumed that the gender bias observed with disorders like Asperger's applied to similar behavior, even when Asperger's is not specifically diagnosed. I'm sure you're right, though - I wouldn't doubt that Asperger's effects a much larger portion of the male population than we are technically aware of.

[swivel]

I'm all too familiar with Asperger's Syndrome. In my adulthood, I've now dated two men who suffer from the condition and, as a result, have paid a great deal of attention to that particular brand of autism spectrum disorder. (What can I say? I'm hopelessly attracted to clinical thought and behavior. *shrugs*) I suppose I just assumed that the gender bias observed with disorders like Asperger's applied to similar behavior, even when Asperger's is not specifically diagnosed. I'm sure you're right, though - I wouldn't doubt that Asperger's effects a much larger portion of the male population than we are technically aware of.

It is a disagreement my wife and I have. Her fellow psychologists are very hesitant to diagnose Aspergers, and define it with a very narrow scope. I now understand that almost every pimple-faced geek in school, who can't assimilate socially, suffers from a hyper-male brain. Every class of 100 has 5-6 of these guys, and 1-2 girls.

[celtic friend]

You're sounding like a long lost sister. :p

On an off note - It seems like the "genius-as-fuckup" thing is largely male-specific. I was never bored in school (mostly due to that advanced track), never had disciplinary problems, never had trouble showing my work (which seems to be a common issue among gifted males), etc. Now, my family is unusually thick with Mensa-qualifiers, most of whom are men. All of these men have encountered difficulty with the tendencies you listed. I know quite a few brilliant girls, and I've never witnessed that problem in them.

Swivel? Do you happen to know if there's anything to that, or is my experience having never encountered a female genius-fuckup simply coincidence?
I agree it does seem to be a mostly male thing.
Most kids that have ADHD are male. Supposedly, girls display it in different ways, like daydreaming. They say it is under-reported in girls. ADD not ADHD that is.

[celtic friend]

I'm all too familiar with Asperger's Syndrome. In my adulthood, I've now dated two men who suffer from the condition and, as a result, have paid a great deal of attention to that particular brand of autism spectrum disorder. (What can I say? I'm hopelessly attracted to clinical thought and behavior. *shrugs*) I suppose I just assumed that the gender bias observed with disorders like Asperger's applied to similar behavior, even when Asperger's is not specifically diagnosed. I'm sure you're right, though - I wouldn't doubt that Asperger's effects a much larger portion of the male population than we are technically aware of.
I only know one kid with Asperger's, he also had ODD, so my thoughts are not really good ones.
He was my oldest's BF for a bit, it was hard telling my son just because he is "allowed" to behave this way does not mean you are.

[celtic friend]

That's fucking crazy. I used to do the same thing, and had to work very hard to break that habit. I would "test" a sentence out in a whisper before I said it aloud. Also, I had a habit of counting EVERYTHING. And, if I touched the inside of my mouth with my tongue, I had to touch the other side with my tongue, because it would be "jealous" if I didn't. Same with brushing up against a wall, I would have to go do the exact brush on the other wall.



Extremely sloppy in some ways, inordinately neat in others. My handwriting is for shit, but I do like to have my things organized. Not OCD, but just not cluttered. The reason I half-assed stuff is because I found that my 50% effort won the praise of everyone around me. Why do more? It wasn't until I got into college that I decided to give it 100%. I started wanting a perfect score on every test. My challenge to myself was to ruin any chance of a curve for any other student. Not to be mean, but to prove that the curriculum was fair. I would read every text book ahead of the scheduled date and pretended that I was going to be teaching the class. I also found that wearing a coat and tie to class, and carrying a briefcase, made a difference in how I approached school.



Yes, the dysfunctional genius is heavily skewed towards the male. Autism is now considered an "Extreme Male Brain". Hyper rationality, low impulse control, lack of empathy. The "Geek Disease" is a high-functioning autism called "Asperger's". My guess is that many more men suffer from this than we are aware. I would put the figure at 5-6% of the male population. My guess is that some sequence of genes on the 'X' chromosome controls autism, so men are twice as likely to be stuck with a recessive form, with no backup in place.C's handwriting is shit. He would rather be doing something else I guess.
Today he did the parapillia thing, he said to himself first "were is my uniform, and I am not going", then said it out loud to me. He does it so much but I was looking for it today.
He does eat his clothes again, that went away for a bit.
The one thing I do love about him is that he is not a follower and he will stick up for himself, to anyone.
He is a young kid in his class, so was I. I started K at 4. He started at 5, but his birthday was August just making the cut off. He has friends, a lot of older ones. They all say C is the funniest craziest kid.
My oldest and him are polar opposites, and with the oldest being the easy going one, I have to be make sure I don't rag on C. He is also the middle which can be hard.
Anyway, if he turns out like you I guess from what I see it wouldn't be HORRIBLE, :).
I just hope he turns out to be a productive member of society.

Aren't men more right brained thinkers and women more balanced?

[Athena]

I only know one kid with Asperger's, he also had ODD, so my thoughts are not really good ones.
He was my oldest's BF for a bit, it was hard telling my son just because he is "allowed" to behave this way does not mean you are.

ODD...Heh...Now, there's a disorder I'm not totally sold on.

Yeah, the guys I dated did not display disruptive behavior or anything, they were just emotionally detached (although both extremely intelligent). One had a brother who was so OCD, he was totally home-bound, rarely leaving his room. The other once referred to me as "quite stoic". Talk about the pot calling the kettle... :p

[celtic friend]

That is sad that the poor guy would not leave his house.
ODD, I am not sure either. My friend who is a social worker believes in it. This boy I know of, talked to his Mom like crap and due to the ODD he was allowed. After all it's not his fault, right?

[swivel]

Aren't men more right brained thinkers and women more balanced?

Sounds like you have some gender bias there. :(

I would say that neither gender is "balanced", per se. Just different. I think you would have to look for the most balanced individuals in either gender to get a representation.

[celtic friend]

Sounds like you have some gender bias there. :(

I would say that neither gender is "balanced", per se. Just different. I think you would have to look for the most balanced individuals in either gender to get a representation.

No, I think you read me wrong, not balanced as in stable, balanced as in left and right brain thinking. Haha, most people I know that are NOT balanced are women, LOL including myself.
I read a book by Michael Gurian, Bringing up Boys and he claims that women and men use different parts of their brains for thinking. Men use more of their right side, women use both sides more equally.

[Raq me darkly]

That is sad that the poor guy would not leave his house.
ODD, I am not sure either. My friend who is a social worker believes in it. This boy I know of, talked to his Mom like crap and due to the ODD he was allowed. After all it's not his fault, right?

I don't think he should have been allowed. Just because someone has some sort of "disorder" does not mean they can be rude. They would need to learn skills just like anyone else in order to merge into society. If they do not learn the skills when they are younger, they will not exercise the skills when they are older.

In my opinion, "Oh, so-and-so has [insert diagnosis] so it's OK." is not Ok. Some conditions need to be worked around - to some extent. If someone needs to check the door 5x before they leave the house or sing all of "Sailing Away" once they hear the first bit, that just involves patience. It can be a bit trying, but it is not detrimental to fitting in with the rest of society. Someone who has to hit and scream needs to learn that this is not appropriate behavior.

[Nell]

I agree but now I have the freakin chorus to "Sailing Away" in my head cause that is the only part I know. Dang it!

[Countess Olenska]

I agree but now I have the freakin chorus to "Sailing Away" in my head cause that is the only part I know. Dang it!

Rock on with Styx...

[Nell]

Oh Mammasweet, you are too nice. How do you know that I was way to lazy to go look that up?

[thepooh5]

What?!? Oh, man. That is fucking wack. How is it legal for a school to require behavior meds? Was he in private school?

I don't know if its legal, but the schools will try and make you put your kid on such meds. You just have to tell the school and the doctor to suck your ass. You are not required to medicate your kid for them to attend school. Lots of times lazy ass teachers want to medicate them instead of doing their jobs.

Some kids are shy. Some kids are outspoken. Some kids have more energy than others. That doesn't mean they need to be medicated. These drugs are passed out like candy with no real research on long term effects, like pointed out - WHY?

These types of meds should be reserved as the VERY LAST RESORT and/or only in the most severe cases - not as a "cure all", which is today's problem. How many times will a kid be "acting out" because of serious issues at home and not because he/she is ADHD? When kids are acting out, do doctors even ask WHY or do they automatically just assume ADHD and prescribe accordingly? How many abuse cases get overlooked due to "doping the kid up"? :confused:

[Athena]

Pooh! Good to see ya, buddy! 14 posts and you've already been groaned once? You're on fire! :D

...and you're absolutely right. Kids' behavior is influence by all sorts of personality traits. I, for example, am a bit Alexithymic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexithymia). I've never required medication, though. It's these variations in personality that make people interesting. If we begin medicating these variances in order to attain one ideal personality so that teachers can better handle students, how does this differ from brainwashing or other types of thinking and behavior modification?

[thepooh5]

I saw that I had been groaned. How do you find out which comment was groaned? I would like to know if I was misread or if I just made a dumbass statement that deserved a groan. ;)

It is no different than brainwashing! I found it shocking that there are states that can actually threaten to take away your children if you don't medicate them. Talk about a war. If it were my kid and I was doing everything in my power for them and they were not a threat to others or themselves - well then, the school be damned and CPS. The other posters made reference to CPS threatening to remove the children - does anyone know if a judge has actually removed a child from the home for "not doping them up"?

When we read of abuse cases, the goal is "reuniting the family" - but if you don't dope them, we'll take them away... Talk about BULLSHIT with all capital letters - DAMN, DAMN AND DOUBLE DAMN. Man, that shit "just ain't right", anyway you look at it. With all the known abuse cases and all the 'returned" children that get killed, I guess I would just go off the deep end if someone, anyone tried to take my kid over not giving them the "calming pill". :mad:

[thepooh5]

BTW, why doesn't my little pooh show up here like it does in the stories in which I comment?

[thepooh5]

[QUOTE=Athena;31907]Pooh! Good to see ya, buddy! 14 posts and you've already been groaned once? You're on fire! :D

I like to blaze a trail :glasses:

[Athena]

Here's your groaned post (http://www.dreamindemon.com/forums/search.php?searchid=95841). Looks like you were simply enquiring about the groan button. :p

You can find your groaned posts by going to your own profile and clicking the "Find all groaned at posts by ThePooh5" link, about halfway down the page on the left side of the profile.

The avatar here is totally separate from the front page. To put an avatar up in the forums, go to "User CP" in the link bar near the top of this page, then click on "Edit Avatar", an option on the right side of that screen. Once in there, it'll tell you what to do. Let me know if you have any problems.

[thepooh5]

Thanks Athena, now I have my little pooh. Feels better already!:D

[Athena]

No prob, Pooh. It just wouldn't have been the same, otherwise. :)

[thepooh5]

No prob, Pooh. It just wouldn't have been the same, otherwise. :)

Ya, know the scary part is - I'm just about as round in real life as my pic on here........ lol :o

[thepooh5]

Luckily, my head isn't that fat nor my nose that long - but the rest, pretty close with those little, short legs and all.

[thepooh5]

I guess what bothers me most is the fact that in some states, I'll have to check my research again to pinpoint which ones, children CAN be removed from the home if parents don't agree to the medication. I have read of a case or two where they were removed and forced to take Ritalin before they would be returned to the parents. I did a paper on this particular subject just last year....TONS of info on it. I was pissed off by the time the paper was finished. :mad:

Of the case or two that you have read, are you saying a [B]JUDGE[B] actually signed a court order removing the children from the home until the parents made the children take Ritalin? Now that is just whacked and WRONG in so many ways. That's like forcing women to take birth control - although, as this site proves, some should. However, we cannot allow this much state interference!

[celtic friend]

I know that in this thread we were talking about my son's OCD and parapilia, which is when you say something to yourself before, saying it outloud. Well I found out why my son's thinks his brother and friends can read his mind, see they all watch him say it to himself, and then before he gets to say it out loud they say it. So he thinks they can read his mind, he must not even realize he does it? I called the doctor today to schedule his follow up, I have still not heard back, which has become typical, so I might have to switch.:(