9 year old rides subway AND bus alone

[TXChris]

Why I Let My 9-Year-Old Ride the Subway Alone
By LENORE SKENAZY | April 3, 2008

I left my 9-year-old at Bloomingdale’s (the original one) a couple weeks ago. Last seen, he was in first floor handbags as I sashayed out the door.

Bye-bye! Have fun!

And he did. He came home on the subway and bus by himself.

Was I worried? Yes, a tinge. But it didn’t strike me as that daring, either. Isn’t New York as safe now as it was in 1963? It’s not like we’re living in downtown Baghdad.

Anyway, for weeks my boy had been begging for me to please leave him somewhere, anywhere, and let him try to figure out how to get home on his own. So on that sunny Sunday I gave him a subway map, a MetroCard, a $20 bill, and several quarters, just in case he had to make a call.

No, I did not give him a cell phone. Didn’t want to lose it. And no, I didn’t trail him, like a mommy private eye. I trusted him to figure out that he should take the Lexington Avenue subway down, and the 34th Street crosstown bus home. If he couldn’t do that, I trusted him to ask a stranger. And then I even trusted that stranger not to think, “Gee, I was about to catch my train home, but now I think I’ll abduct this adorable child instead.”

Long story short: My son got home, ecstatic with independence.

Long story longer, and analyzed, to boot: Half the people I’ve told this episode to now want to turn me in for child abuse. As if keeping kids under lock and key and helmet and cell phone and nanny and surveillance is the right way to rear kids. It’s not. It’s debilitating — for us and for them.

And yet —

“How would you have felt if he didn’t come home?” a New Jersey mom of four, Vicki Garfinkle, asked.

Guess what, Ms. Garfinkle: I’d have been devastated. But would that just prove that no mom should ever let her child ride the subway alone?

No. It would just be one more awful but extremely rare example of random violence, the kind that hyper parents cite as proof that every day in every way our children are more and more vulnerable.

“Carlie Brucia — I don’t know if you’re familiar with that case or not, but she was in Florida and she did a cut-through about a mile from her house … and midday, at 11 in the morning, she was abducted by a guy who violated her several times, killed her, and left her behind a church.”

That’s the story that the head of safetynet4kids.com, Katharine Francis, immediately told me when I asked her what she thought of my son getting around on his own. She runs a company that makes wallet-sized copies of a child’s photo and fingerprints, just in case.

Well of course I know the story of Carlie Brucia. That’s the problem. We all know that story — and the one about the Mormon girl in Utah and the one about the little girl in Spain — and because we do, we all run those tapes in our heads when we think of leaving our kids on their own. We even run a tape of how we’d look on Larry King.

“I do not want to be the one on TV explaining my daughter’s disappearance,” a father, Garth Chouteau, said when we were talking about the subway issue.

These days, when a kid dies, the world — i.e., cable TV — blames the parents. It’s simple as that. And yet, Trevor Butterworth, a spokesman for the research center STATS.org, said, “The statistics show that this is an incredibly rare event, and you can’t protect people from very rare events. It would be like trying to create a shield against being struck by lightning.”

Justice Department data actually show the number of children abducted by strangers has been going down over the years. So why not let your kids get home from school by themselves?

“Parents are in the grip of anxiety and when you’re anxious, you’re totally warped,” the author of “A Nation of Wimps,” Hara Estroff Marano, said. We become so bent out of shape over something as simple as letting your children out of sight on the playground that it starts seeming on par with letting them play on the railroad tracks at night. In the rain. In dark non-reflective coats.

The problem with this everything-is-dangerous outlook is that over-protectiveness is a danger in and of itself. A child who thinks he can’t do anything on his own eventually can’t.

Meantime, my son wants his next trip to be from Queens. In my day, I doubt that would have struck anyone as particularly brave. Now it seems like hitchhiking through Yemen.

Here’s your MetroCard, kid. Go.

lskenazy@yahoo.com

____________________________________

I first caught this woman on Fox News today and then proceeded to pull up the story on the Internet. I've got to say, I'm happy there are still people like this out there. Parents have become too hyper. Period. News has become so easily and widely disseminated that parents have refused to consider the fact that kids are a hell of a lot more likely to get home safely than they are to get abducted. Not just a little bit more likely, people, a HELL OF A LOT more likely to get home safely. When parents refuse to allow their kids the opportunity to learn independence and self-reliance they are in-fact making sure their kids are unable to function properly when they get out on their own. Those parents are the ones that should be reported to CPS, not the parents who are helping their children prepare for the real world...for life.

[Rotten Apple]

When parents refuse to allow their kids the opportunity to learn independence and self-reliance they are in-fact making sure their kids are unable to function properly when they get out on their own. Those parents are the ones that should be reported to CPS, not the parents who are helping their children prepare for the real world...for life.

BULLSHIT!!!!

It absolutely depends on the maturity of the kid. I know some teens I don't trust to cross the street alone.

[Lizard]

I know some teens I don't trust to cross the street alone.

Yeah, we've had some of them post on this site.

[maryhaze]

my little heathens are 7 & 9. they go outside & play on the cleared part of 400 acres with no adult supervision, but no way in hell would i allow them loose in a city. "stranger danger" aside, i'd be scared they'd get hit by a car. JMO

[TXChris]

BULLSHIT!!!!

It absolutely depends on the maturity of the kid. I know some teens I don't trust to cross the street alone.

And the only way a child, or any person for that matter, becomes mature is by being given the opportunity to obtain it. Maturity isn't something that just happens. It's not caused by age. It manifests itself purely from the learnings of life. Maturity cannot be taught and it cannot be given. It must be earned. It comes from understanding, and one cannot get understanding from living in a sheltered environment. One has to be given the opportunity to make decisions and then be expected to live with the rewards or consequences. Life is meant to be experienced and only by experiencing it can one obtain said maturity.

Parents are scared because they hear "all" these news stories about kids being abducted. What must be noted, however, is that the number of kids actually abducted is obscenely minute in comparison to the actual number of opportunities that present themselves. Unfortunately, because the news spends so much time hyping up these few rare events parents become obsessed with worry.

[Morbid]

Parents are scared because they hear "all" these news stories about kids being abducted. What must be noted, however, is that the number of kids actually abducted is obscenely minute in comparison to the actual number of opportunities that present themselves. Unfortunately, because the news spends so much time hyping up these few rare events parents become obsessed with worry.

More sweeping generalizations and talking out of your ass. Parents don't let there kids do things for a myriad of reasons. Not just because of the media. But thanks for telling us parents why we do what we do with our kids. I'll be sure to do the same when you are raising any.

[Rotten Apple]

And the only way a child, or any person for that matter, becomes mature is by being given the opportunity to obtain it. Maturity isn't something that just happens. It's not caused by age. It manifests itself purely from the learnings of life. Maturity cannot be taught and it cannot be given. It must be earned. It comes from understanding, and one cannot get understanding from living in a sheltered environment. One has to be given the opportunity to make decisions and then be expected to live with the rewards or consequences. Life is meant to be experienced and only by experiencing it can one obtain said maturity.


Bullshit again!!

There are just some children (even adults) that are not equipped mentally to handle the situations that the real world can put them in.

I feel, that by age 9, by daughter will probably be one of those that can handle more freedom, but I know for a fact there are a few kids out there that can't. No matter how much freedom they are given, kids develop at different rates. I am not gonna let some studies and hypothetical situations guilt me into giving my child freedom and putting her in harms way before her time.

[TXChris]

More sweeping generalizations and talking out of your ass. Parents don't let there kids do things for a myriad of reasons. Not just because of the media. But thanks for telling us parents why we do what we do with our kids. I'll be sure to do the same when you are raising any.

The stories in the media play a huge part in why most parents do not allow their kids the freedom to grow and mature. Just because it may not be the reason why you don't allow your children to play outside alone does not make it invalid. It's stories that start with a child being abducted and end with said child being raped or killed that freak parents out. They worry about the rare event a child is abducted and don't rationally think through it. That's fine. That's their decision as parents. However, to consider calling CPS on a parent that allows their child the opportunity to grow and mature is ridiculous. On that note, assuming one does not have a child would be talking out of your ass, wouldn't it? ;)

[Morbid]

On that note, assuming one does not have a child would be talking out of your ass, wouldn't it? ;)

I don't assume. I never said had a child, I said raising one. ;)

[TXChris]

Bullshit again!!

There are just some children (even adults) that are not equipped mentally to handle the situations that the real world can put them in.

I feel, that by age 9, by daughter will probably be one of those that can handle more freedom, but I know for a fact there are a few kids out there that can't. No matter how much freedom they are given, kids develop at different rates. I am not gonna let some studies and hypothetical situations guilt me into giving my child freedom and putting her in harms way before her time.

Great point! And I do agree. However, I am not saying that every child should be allowed to ride the subway or bus alone at 9. There are always exceptions. But, the base of what I was saying remains...the only way one gains maturity is by being given the opportunity to make decisions and live with the consequences. Maturity builds as more and more difficult decisions are made by the individual. Depending on the child's mental ability they might be given more or less freedom at younger or older ages. How early a parent begins that process has a lot to do with how well a child matures.

[TXChris]

I don't assume. I never said had a child, I said raising one. ;)

And I guess that would still be assuming on your part as you and I have never conversed.

[Morbid]

And I guess that would still be assuming on your part as you and I have never conversed.

Again, I don't assume and I don't need to converse with you to know anything about you. You would be surprised at just how much I know about a lot of you. ;)

[TXChris]

Again, I don't assume and I don't need to converse with you to know anything about you. You would be surprised at just how much I know about a lot of you. ;)

Fantastic! I figured I was right. Just needed you to confirm it...and you did. :D

[Morbid]

Fantastic! I figured I was right. Just needed you to confirm it...and you did. :D


Wow! You're a fucking genius!

[TXChris]

Wow! You're a fucking genius!

:D

[Rotten Apple]

Great point! And I do agree. However, I am not saying that every child should be allowed to ride the subway or bus alone at 9. There are always exceptions. But, the base of what I was saying remains...the only way one gains maturity is by being given the opportunity to make decisions and live with the consequences. Maturity builds as more and more difficult decisions are made by the individual. Depending on the child's mental ability they might be given more or less freedom at younger or older ages. How early a parent begins that process has a lot to do with how well a child matures.

Hey, your Myspace says "proud parent." How old is your kid(s)?

Anyway, your statement about calling CPS on people who don't allow this to happen is ridiculous. That is what I take issue with. I raise my kid as I see fit. Who knows her better than me? No one.

[TXChris]

Hey, your Myspace says "proud parent." How old is your kid(s)?

Anyway, your statement about calling CPS on people who don't allow this to happen is ridiculous. That is what I take issue with. I raise my kid as I see fit. Who knows her better than me? No one.

Um, yeah, it does. She is 11.

My comment about calling CPS was in response to the people, in the article, who had threatened to call CPS on this lady...and anyone else that would call CPS on a person who did something similar.

[Lizard]

I'm approaching this post with some trepidation, because I don't want to step on tender toes but really am hoping for a little illumination. All things considered, I am quite new here, so please enter that into your calculations before you rip me a new one (and I am not claiming I do not, in the long run, need a new one ripped), but what are the primary issues when it comes to TXChris? I have read some (not all) of his posts and the replies to said posts, and what I have seen in my (admittedly incomplete) experience with his posts doesn't explain the degree of (what appears to be) hostility toward him. TXChris, are you just an asshole trying to cause trouble and sow dissension? Or, Regular Posters, is TXChris an idiot posing as a nonidiot? I'm not sure how I can convey that my question(s) is (are) asked in all earnestness, except to note that my presence on this site over the last couple of weeks has been pretty constant, suggesting that I would like my presence to continue while better understanding the history of the interactions of the other posters of this site.

I sound like a fucking nutball, don't I? I can't decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing. *Sigh.* But earnest? Yeah, I am.

[TXChris]

I'm approaching this post with some trepidation, because I don't want to step on tender toes but really am hoping for a little illumination. All things considered, I am quite new here, so please enter that into your calculations before you rip me a new one (and I am not claiming I do not, in the long run, need a new one ripped), but what are the primary issues when it comes to TXChris? I have read some (not all) of his posts and the replies to said posts, and what I have seen in my (admittedly incomplete) experience with his posts doesn't explain the degree of (what appears to be) hostility toward him. TXChris, are you just an asshole trying to cause trouble and sow dissension? Or, Regular Posters, is TXChris an idiot posing as a nonidiot? I'm not sure how I can convey that my question(s) is (are) asked in all earnestness, except to note that my presence on this site over the last couple of weeks has been pretty constant, suggesting that I would like my presence to continue while better understanding the history of the interactions of the other posters of this site.

I sound like a fucking nutball, don't I? I can't decide if that's a good thing or a bad thing. *Sigh.* But earnest? Yeah, I am.


Hi Lizard. I'm still pretty new here myself. And, no, you don't sound like a "fucking nutball" at all. :)

In all honesty, the hostility I receive is merely a product of my beliefs being stringently different than a large majority of regulars on this site. That being said, most of those who disagree with me rarely take it to the name-calling extreme I am sure you have witnessed in previous threads. They effectively and maturely discuss the issues and leave personal barbs out of it.

It's OK, really, as I don't mind debate and discussion about issues. After all, that's why I am here. Unfortunately, there is the occasional person who decides to go beyond the issues being debated and personally attack another. It's really a lack of maturity on their part, and I admit I have fallen into the same mode when retaliating. That being as it is I have recently decided to just ignore it from now on as it serves no useful purpose. It's just one person saying to another "My dick is bigger." I mean, really, what does that accomplish? :)

I, personally, believe a lot of what is wrong with this country is that it has become a nanny state; that a group, which grows larger by the day, is all for entitlement and having the government do for them (which means my money pays for it). I was raised to accept responsibility for my actions; to take every opportunity that arises and do the best I can with it while, at the same time, being fully aware that I would have to live with the results of said decisions and expect nothing less. I'm tired of people blaming everyone else but themselves when unintended results come about from their decisions. I do not agree with a group of people telling me what to do and how to do it if the things I am doing do not hurt anyone else. I am a Classic Liberal in every sense of the word. On top of that I am also a Strict Constructionist in that I believe the Constitution of our very own United States of America is uniquely set up to handle any problems that may arise. These are two things that are not common among most of the others on this site...and, once again, that is OK. It allows for discussion. The problem we run into is that a person might get upset because they feel they know better than the rest of the population yet not enough people will agree with their ridiculous use of power to control the populace and take away liberties so they are not able to add amendments they would like to see. So, because they don't get what they want they refer to the Constitution as a waste of paper.

I am constantly called a racist because I believe that, among other things, government's attempts at creating "equality" between races only increases the segregation and feelings of ill-will. I am called homophobic because I do not believe that those who commit "hate crimes" should be treated any differently than those who commit the same crimes but against people of their own gender preference/race. The problem with so-called "hate crime" laws is that they effectively diminish the degree of seriousness of crimes committed in the same way but that are not labeled hate crimes. Basically, they're telling the person of the same crime that they are not equal, in the eyes of the law, to the person who suffered the same crime but was labeled a "hate crime." In a country full of people that always talk of the lack of voice for the minority I enjoy, greatly, being the voice of the smallest minority...the individual. My belief is that the greater good is served best when the individual is left to do as he/she wishes as long as that does not interfere with his/her neighbor. My positions come from a true belief in every individual, as the greater good, and not a fabricated sense of the tyranny of the majority as the greater good.

So, all that being as it is, I am sure you will probably hear from a couple of others as to the opposite of what I just said. As I stated, damn near everyone on this site is mature and able to have discussions on issues they do not agree on without reverting to personal barbs. They are quite an intelligent bunch. But, there is one or two that would rather it go sour. It is what it is. I have no hard feelings. It has just gotten to the point of ridiculousness that I refuse to engage in that anymore. I hope you can better understand my position now. And, thanks for asking. :)


Edit: Oh, and I do, at times, generalize things which ends up getting me a harsh criticism or three. It is a fault of mine, as I usually feel that people understand where I am coming from by now. It's something I am working on. :D

[Lizard]

TXChris, thank you so much for a thoughtful reply to my post (which was genuinely meant). I know (hope?) others will weigh in on the issue(s) I've raised, and I do look forward to their responses. I'm still finding my sea legs here, and this kind of interaction is very helpful to me in figuring out where I "fit" here at the D'D. I do appreciate the diversity of opinion--and the intelligence--that is so obvious in D'D posts. I'm hoping that I'll eventually feel more comfortable in throwing my two cents in on issues beyond the depraved and doomed. (So, thanks again.)

[AnalBreeze]

I saw these people on the today show this morning.
All I have to say is why take the chance? If you love your child, Why?
My son is smart enough to light a match all by himself but I don't let him play with matches!
I don't doubt the kid is smart enough to do it all by himself.
What about all the bad guys we have on our front page?
What about all the ones we don't have on our front page?
The world is full of them! Fuck! I would be scared to ride the subway by myself!

[TXChris]

TXChris, thank you so much for a thoughtful reply to my post (which was genuinely meant). I know (hope?) others will weigh in on the issue(s) I've raised, and I do look forward to their responses. I'm still finding my sea legs here, and this kind of interaction is very helpful to me in figuring out where I "fit" here at the D'D. I do appreciate the diversity of opinion--and the intelligence--that is so obvious in D'D posts. I'm hoping that I'll eventually feel more comfortable in throwing my two cents in on issues beyond the depraved and doomed. (So, thanks again.)

I really appreciate you asking the question. :)

That being said, don't be afraid to jump in with whatever your personal feelings and positions may be. Your post just might be the one that brings about a view or question nobody had considered.

[TXChris]

I saw these people on the today show this morning.
All I have to say is why take the chance? If you love your child, Why?
My son is smart enough to light a match all by himself but I don't let him play with matches!
I don't doubt the kid is smart enough to do it all by himself.
What about all the bad guys we have on our front page?
What about all the ones we don't have on our front page?
The world is full of them! Fuck! I would be scared to ride the subway by myself!

And that was exactly my point. We're so inundated with the nightly news about such depravity that we begin to believe it is likely to happen when, in reality, it is very unlikely to happen.

I, personally, believe that parents these days, in general, are too over-protective of their children. It's not that these crimes occur more often. It is just that technology has made it easier to make it known when they do. Information is disseminated so much more widely and so much easier than it ever has been. And, as emotional creatures, we crave this kind of news. It tugs at our heart strings. It affects us on a deeper level. The truth is the news stations do their job just a bit too well.

I am all for a parent raising their children in what they see is the most fitting way possible as long as that child is not being hurt. Allowing a child to take the subway or bus unaccompanied, however, is not a bad thing, and I take issue with someone that would turn this woman into CPS because of it. The problem is that people allow their emotions to override their intelligence and reasoning. But the fact that an individual gets emotional over a loving parent doing this should not be reason enough for the parent to lose their child.

[Rotten Apple]

I know (hope?) others will weigh in on the issue(s) I've raised, and I do look forward to their responses.


My response? Sexual tension and misplaced loyalty.

I absolutely disagree with his politics, but his manliness, love for UT Longhorns and him being from my "home" confuse me.

It comes out in rage, fightin' words, and a strong desire to kick him in the nuts. :D

[Mom of 4]

My response? Sexual tension and misplaced loyalty.

I absolutely disagree with his politics, but his manliness, love for UT Longhorns and him being from my "home" confuse me.

It comes out in rage, fightin' words, and a strong desire to kick him in the nuts. :D


Kick him in the nuts?? Hey I hear some guys like that a lot! :D

[Mom of 4]

I saw these people on the today show this morning.
All I have to say is why take the chance? If you love your child, Why?
My son is smart enough to light a match all by himself but I don't let him play with matches!
I don't doubt the kid is smart enough to do it all by himself.
What about all the bad guys we have on our front page?
What about all the ones we don't have on our front page?
The world is full of them! Fuck! I would be scared to ride the subway by myself!



I agree with you. 9 is not very old and what bothers me about this is that this mother was willing to take a chance with her 9 year olds safety to prove a point. Not good parenting in my books. Just because a child thinks they are old enough to do something does not mean that they are. What's next? He feels he can drive at 11 so she gives him the keys? At 12 he decides he wants to come home from school put his feet up and chug a few beers? At 13 he and his girlfriend decide they are ready to be parents so you buy him a double bed and a crib for his room?


You have to use common sense when you parent and if you feel the need to prove a point to get your 15 minutes on TV risk your own safety not your childs!:mad:

[Jaded]

Personally, I let my kids experience their freedoms in bits and pieces. By the age of 6, they were riding their bikes up and down the street where we lived. By the age of 9, I was allowing them to ride their bikes to a park about 5 blocks away from home. I don't feel that I am an overprotective mother...I feel that maturity comes with age. Now that they are teenagers they have limits but basically are free to come and go as they please. I don't feel that I have sheltered them and I don't feel that I have become paranoid by media hype. The media hype has made me a little wiser as it has done my children. I show them articles all the time about what can happen out there in the big, bad world. They are aware of the dangers and so far have proven to be very responsible and street smart. As far as public transportation is concerned...never after dark. Ever. I don't know about other cities, but in Portland, OR. the bus and MAX train stops are known to have all species of lurkers hanging around. At the bus stop and in the buses. That is not media hype...that is truth! I've experienced it on more than one occasion.
I give my kids HUGE credit for their intelligence and common sense, but this statement threw me......

No, I did not give him a cell phone. Didn’t want to lose it. And no, I didn’t trail him, like a mommy private eye. I trusted him to figure out that he should take the Lexington Avenue subway down, and the 34th Street crosstown bus home. If he couldn’t do that, I trusted him to ask a stranger. And then I even trusted that stranger not to think, “Gee, I was about to catch my train home, but now I think I’ll abduct this adorable child instead.”

Sorry...I'm part of the Stranger Danger group. I don't want my kids to make a stranger aware that he/she is alone and lost. If the monsters had some sort of scarlet letter branded on their forehead, it would be different. I would want my children to call me, sit tight somewhere and wait for me to get there. There are way too many pervs that would take advantage of a 'lost' child.

[Mom of 4]

That's the part that got me too Jaded. The fact that she was willing to risk her sons safety. Sure go ahead tell a stranger that you are lost at the age of 9 and maybe mention your mom didn't give you a cell phone because apparently you are not old enough or responsible enough to have a cell phone! Yessss what a great idea trust a city full of strangers with your 9 year old son but give him a quarter to call home if something bad happens. NICE :rolleyes:

[Jaded]

Exactly. Not old enough to carry a cell phone, but certainly old enough to ride the subway?
And DAMN it is hard to find a working pay phone these days....

[dop]

Not giving him a cellphone was a really retarded move just to prove a point, she seems more interested in that than the saftey of his kid... Jerk.

Personally I was allowed to ride the bus witougth an adult at 10 but only when hanging with other kids, of course being a little asshole I keept braking that rule and going to places by myselve, wile nothing happend to me now I realise what a fucking dumb thing that was on my part...

A lot of kids even younger than this one ride the buses by themselves here in Mexico and mostly nothing happens to them but of course every now and then it happens to some and thats where the "if it was your kid?" kicks in and rigthfuly so, its not about statistics its about the fact shit sometimes happens and you dont want it happening to your kid if its easy enuff to stop it..

Wile I agree with Chris its way over the top for the peeps in the article to want to call social services on her(tho Id say its obious the bitch is more concerned on proving a point than the independence of her son) If I had a young child I wouldnt let him ride the bus and subway just for the fuck of it, there needs to be a real reason other than "independence"...

[TXChris]

That's the part that got me too Jaded. The fact that she was willing to risk her sons safety. Sure go ahead tell a stranger that you are lost at the age of 9 and maybe mention your mom didn't give you a cell phone because apparently you are not old enough or responsible enough to have a cell phone! Yessss what a great idea trust a city full of strangers with your 9 year old son but give him a quarter to call home if something bad happens. NICE :rolleyes:

I'm not sure how to take the comment about the cell phone now. I'm torn. lol When I read it, and when I heard her talk on the news, I took it to mean that she didn't want to lose "it." You know, that she would've been calling him and checking up on him because she is his mother. After all, she did mention that she was worried at the beginning of the article. That was the context she seemed to put it in. I never even considered the fact that she was possibly talking about him losing the cell phone.

Also, somewhere else in the thread someone had mentioned that they felt she was doing it for T.V. time. I have to admit, hearing her on the news it seemed more like she wrote the article because she had been accosted so harshly by a few others and, at that point, felt the need to speak out. The news, I'm sure, just picked up on the article and had her on because what she did is so controversial.

[Athena]

Ahhh...Polarization, how I love thee. Still, what's good for the front page is not necessarily good for those of us who socialize daily. There are a few rather extreme positions that have been taken, here, and in the interest of world peace, I'd like to address them.

1.) TXChris: When parents refuse to allow their kids the opportunity to learn independence and self-reliance they are in-fact making sure their kids are unable to function properly when they get out on their own.

I'm glad you addressed your tendency toward sweeping generalization. The truth is, an unqualified, blanket generalization is no better than a false statement. The above is stated as an absolute, when it isn't. Just like some kids who are allowed to roam free never have anything bad happen to them, some kids who are smothered are not adversely affected by it. You are not necessarily damaging your kid by keeping them on a short leash, but you are risking it.

As has been mentioned, kids develop at different rates. There is no standard. "The Age of Reason" is a myth, in this context. I truely believe that the best course of action for rearing a child is to give them as much freedom as you think they can handle and pull back in the event that they can't. But, ultimately, your immediate family knows best when is appropriate to let out some rope.

What's important, however, is that you base these decisions on your child's ability and maturity level, not some arbitrary and unrealistic fear. "Stranger danger", while real, pales in comparison to other threats you may be ignoring. You can easily avoid stranger danger by taking some very simple steps, namely, educating your child. More kids effectively escape and report stranger danger than get abducted. Meanwhile, strap a fucking helmet on them when they ride their bike, emphasize the absolute NECESSITY of crossing only at crosswalks, and search their room on occasion. Kids don't deserve privacy. Columbine could have been prevented had the parents just been a little nosey, for christ's sake. /mini-rant

2.) Morbid: But thanks for telling us parents why we do what we do with our kids. I'll be sure to do the same when you are raising any.

I'm going to address this because it seems to be a popular opinion among the parent crowd. The message of this statement is, essentially, "Non-parents don't know and, therefore, have an invalid opinion." This is a common argument, used in any number of scenarios. A lack of personal experience does not necessarily invalidate an opinion. If this were the case, you wouldn't be able to give your friends relationship advice unless you've actually dated that man or woman, for example. No one would ever be taken seriously when commenting on something they haven't personally done before. Silly, right? :)

Truthfully, not having personal experience can sometimes give someone an edge. It's a tactic commonly used in companies. I'm sure you've all heard it at some point - "Lets bring in a fresh pair of eyes." Yep, believe it or not, sometimes, a lack of personal experience is actually preferred. Those of us not raising any children are not bound by emotion or hampered by routine. A parent might say, "You just can't understand why we do what we do," and they're right, generally. But did it ever occur to that parent that I might not understand...Because maybe it doesn't make sense from an unemotional (as opposed to "unexperienced") perspective? Realistically, emotion or personal involvement can cause smart people to do stupid things, or not see their situation clearly. There can be a benefit to getting an unbiased, unexperienced opinion.

3.) Lizard: ...but what are the primary issues when it comes to TXChris?

Heh. I'm going to take a shot at answering this objectively because, although Chris kindly explained his side, it's not an accurate representation of the whole situation.

TXChris came here, by my specific invitation, to discuss politics (reads: not necessarily to make friends). As you've noticed, I hang out in Three Things a lot, and I thought it could benefit from a thicker variety of political perspectives. That being said, as I'm sure you've also noticed, D'D is a fairly tightly-knit community. Lots of regulars know each other in real life or from other message boards. This results in a clique-ish element. Now, I know "clique" has a negative connotation, but it's just what happens when people become familiar with each other. It's totally natural.

The backlash that TXChris sometimes experiences is, in my opinion, the unfortunate result of two things: He tends to state an unpopular perspective in a manner that strikes people as arrogant from time to time, and he doesn't have offline friendships with many of the regulars. Now, neither thing in and of itself would result in the contention you've witnessed. I, admittedly, espouse some wickedly self-righteous and sharply-worded opinions on occasion. But these fine folks you see here tend to cut me some slack, because I'm friends with some of them and generally courteous to the rest. On the flip side, newbies will post opinions and not get slammed simply because they don't know anyone. But, if you combine the two, it'll create some friction.

Hope that helps.

4.) Mom: Yessss what a great idea trust a city full of strangers with your 9 year old son but give him a quarter to call home if something bad happens. NICE

I'm not addressing this in the interest of world peace. The cell phone phenomenon makes me smile. :p

I'd like to preface the following with this: I'm 25. "Things were different when we were kids" does not apply to me. I was a kid, like, 10 years ago. My sister was a kid even more recently. The world now is, for all intents and purposes, the same world it was then. We lived in the suburbs of a major city, enjoyed a great deal of freedom and...*Dun dun dun*...didn't have cell phones. Hell, I wasn't even rockin' a pager until I was 15 or so, and that was just so my parents could get ahold of me. The thing was worthless in the event I had to get hold of them.

There are payphones everywhere. A quarter is a relative luxury for some kids! It's all about the collect calls. :p Seriously, though...In the event that something bad is going down with your kid, you've got to have a better game plan than, "Give me a ring and sit tight, honey." Speaking from personal experience, when a bad guy is after you, you don't call home and stay where you are so your parent can find you. If you're smart and were instructed properly, you run, screaming "Help!" at the top of your lungs to the closest house or business and call home once you're safe.

Generally speaking, cell phones provide more false security than anything, given the frequency of bad reception areas or the possibility that the thing gets lost or broken. Not saying your kid shouldn't have one (I'd have loved one, personally), but it's a mistake to view them as some necessary tool for childhood adventure, and it could spell absolute disaster to build your safety plans around them.

Okay...I'm finally done. :cool:

[Rotten Apple]

Realistically, emotion or personal involvement can cause smart people to do stupid things, or not see their situation clearly. There can be a benefit to getting an unbiased, unexperienced opinion.



I think the issue most parents take is when non-parents provide unsolicited advice.

Also, how can you compare a business decision with raising children? Raising children is always emotional because children are living, breathing, beings with emotions of their own. Part of being a parent is providing for their emotional well-being.

I have no problem with unbiased advice, but unexperienced? Unless you are educated in the field of child psychology (and even then I would have trouble taking advice from someone with only "book knowledge,") you are not taking guesses on MY kid.

[TXChris]

I think the issue most parents take is when non-parents provide unsolicited advice.

Also, how can you compare a business decision with raising children? Raising children is always emotional because children are living, breathing, beings with emotions of their own. Part of being a parent is providing for their emotional well-being.

I have no problem with unbiased advice, but unexperienced? Unless you are educated in the field of child psychology (and even then I would have trouble taking advice from someone with only "book knowledge,") you are not taking guesses on MY kid.

And, when referring to myself, anyone who does not know me personally, or who only gets their information second-hand, is simply assuming certain things. This is not directed at you, Kathy. :) It's just a general statement. The truth is, for one to assume I have no experience in raising a child would be a grave mistake on that individual's part. Even certain people on this site who "claim" to know a lot about me obviously really have no clue, based on their comments. But, that is their prerogative to espouse their supposed knowledge. The thing is to those who do, in fact, know the truth that individual looks quite uninformed and emotionally-driven. At this point those who do know the truth have begun to wonder exactly why that person would choose to act in such a way.

However, now that I have said all that it has occurred to me to note that "parents" come in all types. There are step-parents, siblings who take care of their younger siblings, aunts and uncles who step in when the true parents aren't taking care of business, friends of the parents who step in the same as blood relatives, and even significant others of biological parents. The truth is being a biological parent has less to do with raising a child than a true concern for a child's well-being.

[Athena]

I think the issue most parents take is when non-parents provide unsolicited advice.

Also, how can you compare a business decision with raising children? Raising children is always emotional because children are living, breathing, beings with emotions of their own. Part of being a parent is providing for their emotional well-being.

I have no problem with unbiased advice, but unexperienced? Unless you are educated in the field of child psychology (and even then I would have trouble taking advice from someone with only "book knowledge,") you are not taking guesses on MY kid.

No, some parents take issue when non-parents state opinions, period. When I talk about how I think a child should be raised, you'll know when I'm addressing you specifically, because I'll say "Kathy, this is what I think you should do". But when I get blasted for not having children simply for making a general statement about how I think things should be, that's not advice, that's just my opinion. There IS a difference. Parents, in my experience, don't always differentiate and end up taking things personally. I'm not so arrogant as to tell people (especially those I don't know) how to raise their kids, unless they ask, in which case, I'm just giving them things to consider.

Suggesting that non-parents don't have valid opinions about parenting is the same bullshit logic behind the opinion that men shouldn't comment on abortion, or that foreigners shouldn't have opinions on American politics. You don't have to experience something to have some useful information about it.

I think you misunderstood my comparison to a business situation. I was simply illustrating that there are circumstances where a lack of experience can benefit a perspective. I wasn't making a direct correlation to parenting. I wasn't saying "you shouldn't be emotional". That'd be unreasonable. I'm simply saying, "I might see some things you haven't considered because I'm not personally involved". I've got friends who are parents, who come to me for advise, because they know I'm a reasonable and objective person. It's, in part, because I don't have kids that allows me to be objective when they come to me and say, "Hey, am I being reasonable, here?" I'm not saying I know better, because I don't. I know different...and sometimes, that's a good thing.

[Mom of 4]

4.) Mom: Yessss what a great idea trust a city full of strangers with your 9 year old son but give him a quarter to call home if something bad happens. NICE

I'm not addressing this in the interest of world peace. The cell phone phenomenon makes me smile. :p

I'd like to preface the following with this: I'm 25. "Things were different when we were kids" does not apply to me. I was a kid, like, 10 years ago. My sister was a kid even more recently. The world now is, for all intents and purposes, the same world it was then. We lived in the suburbs of a major city, enjoyed a great deal of freedom and...*Dun dun dun*...didn't have cell phones. Hell, I wasn't even rockin' a pager until I was 15 or so, and that was just so my parents could get a hold of me. The thing was worthless in the event I had to get hold of them.

There are pay phones everywhere. A quarter is a relative luxury for some kids! It's all about the collect calls. :p Seriously, though...In the event that something bad is going down with your kid, you've got to have a better game plan than, "Give me a ring and sit tight, honey." Speaking from personal experience, when a bad guy is after you, you don't call home and stay where you are so your parent can find you. If you're smart and were instructed properly, you run, screaming "Help!" at the top of your lungs to the closest house or business and call home once you're safe.

Generally speaking, cell phones provide more false security than anything, given the frequency of bad reception areas or the possibility that the thing gets lost or broken. Not saying your kid shouldn't have one (I'd have loved one, personally), but it's a mistake to view them as some necessary tool for childhood adventure, and it could spell absolute disaster to build your safety plans around them.

Okay...I'm finally done. :cool:



LOL Athena I agree with most of your post. My point about the cell phone was that if you are going to try this kind of experiment with your 9 year old child the least you can do is give him a damn phone to use in case something does happen to him.

I don't believe 9 year olds need cell phones per say except perhaps if you are using said 9 year old to prove some point at their expense. My kids all have cell phones and all of their cell phones have GPS's in them just in case. No I am not a paranoid neurotic mom either. :D It was a service the cell provide offered for a couple bucks a month so I said yes. How many times have we seen cell phone pings used to track people or trace a bad guys whereabouts after a crime? Many victims have been able to call 911 on their cell phones unbeknown st to their attackers. That's a hell of a lot easier to do than finding a pay phone to use.

Finally the part that really bothered me about this dip shit mother was her comment about not giving him a cell phone because she didn't want him to lose it! Evidently her cell phone is just too valuable to lose but her son? Not so much. It didn't sit too well with me I guess.:p

[Rotten Apple]

No, some parents take issue when non-parents state opinions, period. When I talk about how I think a child should be raised, you'll know when I'm addressing you specifically, because I'll say "Kathy, this is what I think you should do". But when I get blasted for not having children simply for making a general statement about how I think things should be, that's not advice, that's just my opinion. There IS a difference. Parents, in my experience, don't always differentiate and end up taking things personally. I'm not so arrogant as to tell people (especially those I don't know) how to raise their kids, unless they ask, in which case, I'm just giving them things to consider.

Well Athena, if they asked for advice, it wouldn't be unsolicited.
Also, if you are giving an opinion, you should be prepared for differing opinions. And if those people believe that them being parents makes their opinions more qualified, that is their opinion also. Aren't they just as entitled?

My statement about unsolicited advice was a general statement aimed at no one in particular. Before I was a parent, I was guilty of it too. In the grocery stores when I said, "I would totally take that screaming toddler out to the car and give him a good swat on the diaper." (Though I as never an idiot and went up to the parent and said that.) Its different when its YOUR screaming toddler in the buggy at the grocery store. Only YOU know that the kid has a raging ear infection, you don't have a sitter and you need to get some medicine and food for the house before you head home. He's screaming because he is in pain, not because he is being a brat.

But I'm sure there are other parents here who have had a "helpful" stranger or two come right up to them and say things like that. My worst experience was on an airplane. I almost punched a lady out.;)


You don't have to experience something to have some useful information about it.

True, but when given a choice, I think most people would give the advice from the experienced person more weight.
For example, I know you have had a hand in raising your sister in her teen years. I can see myself coming to you and saying, "Athena, Johnny is rebelling and fighting in school, I've tried X, Y, and Z. What do you think I should do? What worked for you?" But I am more likely to go to Angel to say "Angel, Little Johnny is biting other children in daycare and will not share toys, what do you think I should do?"

Why? Well, because Angel has experience with toddlers and you have experience with a rebelling teen.



And, when referring to myself, anyone who does not know me personally, or who only gets their information second-hand, is simply assuming certain things. This is not directed at you, Kathy. :) It's just a general statement. The truth is, for one to assume I have no experience in raising a child would be a grave mistake on that individual's part. Even certain people on this site who "claim" to know a lot about me obviously really have no clue, based on their comments. But, that is their prerogative to espouse their supposed knowledge. The thing is to those who do, in fact, know the truth that individual looks quite uninformed and emotionally-driven. At this point those who do know the truth have begun to wonder exactly why that person would choose to act in such a way.

However, now that I have said all that it has occurred to me to note that "parents" come in all types. There are step-parents, siblings who take care of their younger siblings, aunts and uncles who step in when the true parents aren't taking care of business, friends of the parents who step in the same as blood relatives, and even significant others of biological parents. The truth is being a biological parent has less to do with raising a child than a true concern for a child's well-being.

I'm confused as how I should respond to you Chris.

but for the second half of your post, I will say that I agree. there is no magic that happens when you push a baby out of your vagina or your sperm fertilizes an egg. That is proven regularly on our front page. I'm a great mother and I've never given birth. :D

[TXChris]

I'm confused as how I should respond to you Chris.

No worries, Kathy. It was not directed at you in any way. I just took the opportunity to use what was said in your post to make a statement. The whole paragraph was really a statement in general to those in the populace who make the mistake of assuming they know things about another because of second-hand information instead of actually truly knowing that person. Obviously second-hand information is always lacking in its completeness. Assuming, itself, is easy to do with the one-sided stories we get on this site. And, truthfully, assumptions are a bitch when they're wrong. :)


but for the second half of your post, I will say that I agree. there is no magic that happens when you push a baby out of your vagina or your sperm fertilizes an egg. That is proven regularly on our front page. I'm a great mother and I've never given birth. :D

Is it bad that I found humor in the phrase "push a baby out of your vagina?" :D

[Morbid]

Even certain people on this site who "claim" to know a lot about me obviously really have no clue, based on their comments. But, that is their prerogative to espouse their supposed knowledge. The thing is to those who do, in fact, know the truth that individual looks quite uninformed and emotionally-driven. At this point those who do know the truth have begun to wonder exactly why that person would choose to act in such a way.

I never claimed I know a lot about you, I said you would be surprised how much I do know. As for my motives? I like stirring shit. Plain and simple. It drives traffic. Even though I do get a bit of enjoyment watching swivel make you bawl your little hands up and cry like a baby, I don't really care who comes out on top on any of these "debates". Your opinion on pretty much any subject under the sun don't mean shit to me. There is absolutely no emotion motivating my actions or comments, in regards to you, at all. Just a love of web traffic, lower Alexa scores and increasing page views.

If you or "the other people who know the truth" think that it has anything more to do than that, PLEASE quit flattering yourselves. I could care less who you are in love with.

[TXChris]

I never claimed I know a lot about you, I said you would be surprised how much I do know. As for my motives? I like stirring shit. Plain and simple. It drives traffic. Even though I do get a bit of enjoyment watching swivel make you bawl your little hands up and cry like a baby, I don't really care who comes out on top on any of these "debates". Your opinion on pretty much any subject under the sun don't mean shit to me. There is absolutely no emotion motivating my actions or comments, in regards to you, at all. Just a love of web traffic, lower Alexa scores and increasing page views.

If you or "the other people who know the truth" think that it has anything more to do than that, PLEASE quit flattering yourselves. I could care less who you are in love with.

Wow! And so the childishness continues. I wouldn't expect less. :D

It's funny how you took what I said so personally and then hid behind web traffic and increased page views as an excuse. There must be a grain of truth to it, concerning you, I suppose. Otherwise I'm sure it wouldn't have bothered you so much that you just felt you had to make such a post out of it. Meh, it is what it is and you are what you are. Personally, childishness to this level is something I choose not to engage in. It's a waste of much more productive time and energy. Cheers.

[Morbid]

Yeah, yeah. I am hiding behind web traffic from what exactly, Chris? Spit it out. Please. Are you implying that I have something for Athena? Athena, what are you telling this guy? lol!


It's a waste of much more productive time and energy.

That is too funny considering the source.

[Rotten Apple]

Jerry! Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!

Oh wait...:ouch:

[TXChris]

Yeah, yeah. I am hiding behind web traffic from what exactly, Chris? Spit it out. Please. Are you implying that I have something for Athena? Athena, what are you telling this guy? lol!

Athena? What? :confused: Seriously? Dude, are you that insecure? I was referring to this statement exactly:


There is absolutely no emotion motivating my actions or comments, in regards to you, at all. Just a love of web traffic, lower Alexa scores and increasing page views.

So, um, yeah...I think you need to consider why you thought that I was referring that you had something for Athena. lol Wow. The amount of ridiculousness espoused on this site at times just blows my mind. Now, if we can get back on topic...

[Rotten Apple]

So, um, yeah...I think you need to consider why you thought that I was referring that you had something for Athena. lol Wow. The amount of ridiculousness espoused on this site at times just blows my mind. Now, if we can get back on topic...

Ummm...Chris...don't hit me, but I thought you were talking about her too.

Because well, ummm...nevermind.

BACK ON TOPIC!!!:great:

[Morbid]

Athena? What? :confused: Seriously? Dude, are you that insecure?

Seriously. Trust me, Chris. Insecure isn't one of my attributes. Now, if you would like to clear the air and just state state what you mean, you may end up looking less socially retarded.

[TXChris]

Seriously. Trust me, Chris. Insecure isn't one of my attributes. Now, if you would like to clear the air and just state state what you mean, you may end up looking less socially retarded.

Wow! Really, dude? Are you trying to tell me that you STILL do not understand what I was referring to even after I quoted the exact statement for you??? :surprised:

I guess I'll just quote it once more:


There is absolutely no emotion motivating my actions or comments, in regards to you, at all. Just a love of web traffic, lower Alexa scores and increasing page views.

I'm really not sure how much more clear I can make than that right there.

Edit: Just in case, I'm going to try to make it clear. You stated that your personal lashing out at me had only to do with increasing page views, etc. My assertion is that you are merely using that as a reason to hide your true social ineptness. In this case everyone knows how long-standing the friendship between you and swivel is. It's only to be expected that you would continue where he left off when I made the decision not to engage him at any future point. It's OK. I understand where you're coming from, but in all truthfulness, it really is quite a bit on the side of ridiculousness.

Now, can we PLEASE get this thread back on topic? It's obviously a great subject as can be witnessed by the other comments.

[Morbid]

I'm really not sure how much more clear I can make than that right there.

Sure you can. Just fucking say it. Quit being a pussy about it.

[Athena]

Well Athena, if they asked for advice, it wouldn't be unsolicited.

Smartass. ;) You said that you thought parents mostly just take issue with unsolicited advice. I was saying that I was stating opinions, I don't give unsolicited advice...and some parents still take issue because they don't differentiate between an opinion and advice.


Also, if you are giving an opinion, you should be prepared for differing opinions. And if those people believe that them being parents makes their opinions more qualified, that is their opinion also. Aren't they just as entitled?

Opinions are entitled by their very nature, but their legitimacy is ALWAYS debatable. That's what I'm doing here. I'm not saying, "You can't tell me that my opinion as a non-parent doesn't mean shit", I'm saying, "that opinion is ignorant". Let's be real - some opinions are more valid than others. If someone wants to believe that women are stupid or that the AZ Cardinals are the best team in football, that's their right. But I'm going to explain why I think their opinion is based in ignorance.

And, just so that we remain on the same page, my issue is not with parents who find the opinions of other parents more qualified. They ARE more qualified. My qualm is with parents who will dismiss my opinion outright, simply because I don't have my own children.


True, but when given a choice, I think most people would give the advice from the experienced person more weight.

Oh, of course. Like I said, I'm not saying that my opinion as a non-parent is better or even equal in value. I'm just saying that it's not completely dismissable simply because I don't have kids and, in some cases, there may be an advantage to consulting someone who doesn't have kids, especially in a case where a parent's perspective can be severely skewed by emotion.

[TXChris]

Sure you can. Just fucking say it. Quit being a pussy about it.

lol Why don't you try reading the edit.

[Athena]

...In this case everyone knows how long-standing the friendship between you and swivel is. It's only to be expected that you would continue where he left off when I made the decision not to engage him at any future point.


See? Not "Athena". Not anything to do with "Athena".

Step off my balls, y'all. :cool:

[Morbid]

lol Why don't you try reading the edit.

Oh my god. You are truly retarded. Out of all the things I thought you were going to say...you thought this was about swivel??? Holy shit you got that guy on your brain. Maybe you should just suck his dick and be done with it.

Seriously, my god this is too funny.

[TXChris]

Oh my god. You are truly retarded. Out of all the things I thought you were going to say...you thought this was about swivel??? Holy shit you got that guy on your brain. Maybe you should just suck his dick and be done with it.

Seriously, my god this is too funny.

Meh, now that you have said your peace and I have said mine maybe we can get this thread back on topic? :)

[Rotten Apple]

Meh, now that you have said your peace and I have said mine maybe we can get this thread back on topic? :)

NO!

Not until I point out that nurseronda has thanked people 1,426 times in a month and a half. :D

[Morbid]

Meh, now that you have said your peace and I have said mine maybe we can get this thread back on topic? :)

Absolutely. I think I actually like you better just because you truly did surprise me with a curve ball. :)

I'm done. Back to who is a better parent!

[TXChris]

NO!

Not until I point out that nurseronda has thanked people 1,426 times in a month and a half. :D

nurseronda is the shit! :D

[nurseronda]

NO!

Not until I point out that nurseronda has thanked people 1,426 times in a month and a half. :D
Hey, someone has to thank these wonderful people for making people laugh and think in different ways. I sure have had fun reading all these posts and thanked them to let them know I enjoy their insights and the laughs. Hey, I even got to the point of seeing the there are no new posts to read...and I did it in that month and a half...:D

[impqueen]

you thought this was about swivel??? Holy shit you got that guy on your brain. Maybe you should just suck his dick and be done with it.


TXChris, i gotta warn you, it looks nothing at all like the body of Christ. I mean, um, I'm just sayin'.

[TalkingJesus]

TXChris, i gotta warn you, it looks nothing at all like the body of Christ. I mean, um, I'm just sayin'.

Yeah - Morbid assures me, Swivel's dick looks nothing like me.

[impqueen]

:::Imp gently shoves Jesus into the Erin Markes thread (http://www.dreamindemon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2539&page=11) to catch the subreference ;):::

[Miss. Hill]

On the topic, my point of view as a parent raising children, this women took an unnecessary risk. Should CPS be called, that's tough, she was wrong in my opinion, but I'll say no. I don't think she was neglectful or abusive just poor judgement.

I understand the chances of him making it home out way the chances of him being harmed, but why take the risk? I have been in NYC and I live in a large city now, I get a little scared taking the bus or walking streets downtown, and I'm a grown women. I have been approached by weirdo's peddling shit or saying "what's up baby" or whatever. I wouldn't expose my 9 year old to that, no way!

Every child is different and it's a parents responsibility to gage their abilities. A child who is deemed responsible should be given such privileges as going to a friends house, the park, the neighborhood store, riding bikes, things along these lines. BUT dropping your 9 year old off miles from home throwing him some money and a map, is this seriously a debate?

I don't believe all parents are over protective, I make my decisions based on my knowledge of my child's personality and maturity level. As parents it's our responsibility to keep our children from harm not to say, hey let's see what happens if I throw you in the middle of a possible dangerous situation!

We do have to let our children learn through life experience but decisions need to made age specific and child specific, all children are different. Common sense of the parent is a necessity unfortunately not a requirement.

[TalkingJesus]

:::Imp gently shoves Jesus into the Erin Markes thread (http://www.dreamindemon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2539&page=11) to catch the subreference ;):::

Thank you mistress for keeping me on the straight and narrow path.;)

[Mom of 4]

See? Not "Athena". Not anything to do with "Athena".

Step off my balls, y'all. :cool:



See even when you are not here you are stirring up trouble Missy! LMAO :p

[impqueen]

Thank you mistress for keeping me on the straight and narrow path.

The way of the righteous is a straight and narrow path...

at least, that's what one of your guys said. ;)

[TXChris]

The way of the righteous is a straight....

So, it is true??? Homosexuality and bisexuality are sins!

[TalkingJesus]

So, it is true??? Homosexuality and bisexuality are sins!

I'm often misquoted.

[swivel]

Somebody really needs to PM me when there is mention of my dick getting sucked.

Lizard, if you want more angles on the TXChris debacle, here is mine:

TXChris is a Neo-Nazi who hides his racism behind Libertarianism. He hates Hispanics, he thinks the Civil War was not about slavery, the thinks seatbelts are a bad idea, he thinks secondhand smoke has not been determined to be harmful "quantitatively", and he thinks the proliferation of handguns in the United States makes us safer.

His method of argument goes like this:

1. He copies and pastes ignorant shit (see above) from another source without determining the veracity of the studies cited.

2. After getting called out for the incorrectness of his stance, and poked fun of for relying on other people's thinking, he claims that he KNEW the study was questionable, but that his copying and pasting it still had merit.

3. After being called intellectually dishonest for not just admitting that he is talking out of his ass, was wrong, and should just fess up and learn something, he puffs up his little chest and becomes verbally abusive. This is where he accuses other people of all his own insecurities (says people need to be popular when they don't have a Myspace page, and he LIVES at Myspace, says people are insecure when he has his truck jacked up to the moon, says people are stupid when he says the Civil War wasn't about slavery, says people are after Athena, when he is the one madly in love with her, says people follow him around, when he was brought here for the EXPRESS purpose of stalking ME around the site because Athena naively thought (PAST TENSE) that TXChris was in the same ballpark as myself intellectually.)

4. After losing argument after argument, he curls up in a ball, cries about the world being unfair, and engages in the silent treatment.


Now, all of this despite the fact that I have treated him the same way I treat everybody. I go for the jugular in Three Things, and then try to find some areas of agreement in other parts of the site. I am complimentary when I can be, and I am quick to point out that there is one section of the site devoted to debating, and you should stay away if you are prone to fits of bawling. All of the banter is done for my entertainment and for increased traffic. Never once has my blood boiled the way this dude's does. He is just not capable of having a good argument and letting it go, and this is primarily because of his need to appear "smart" and his testosterone-fueled desire to win, win, win.

Denials will say one thing, but do a search on his posting history, go back and look at the threads that started this all, and you will get a full picture of what happened. I believe my account will resonate with the most truth.


Oh, and can't everyone read the awkward style the guy posts with and just tell that he is trying to appear smarter than he really is? It sounds like an 8th grader doing a book report with a thesaurus open. Man... I hope that wasn't rude of me to say... I'm really hoping I can get a blowjob out of this!

[Mom of 4]

Somebody really needs to PM me when there is mention of my dick getting sucked.




Dually noted......:rules: Contact Swivel ASAP if there is the slightest chance of his dick being sucked!

LOL

[Lizard]

Thank you, swivel, I do have every intention of making it through every post at D'D, but I was finding the interactions with TXChris a bit puzzling, slightly disturbing, and seemingly unique in their (perceived by me) negative tone. If I find myself at a point at which I strongly agree or disagree with anyone who has commented on the nature of these interactions, I certainly will speak up.


I go for the jugular in Three Things, and then try to find some areas of agreement in other parts of the site.

I thought you were very decent to Angel. Jugular? No. One butt cheek? Yeah, I can see that. I think you can still get into heaven with only half an ass, though.

[Lizard]

Okay, I made that last post, read it, and immediately launched into a panic attack over the thought I'll get called on the carpet by swivel for being too cautious. If I should go offline for a while, it's because I have to go change my pants.

[swivel]

Thank you, swivel, I do have every intention of making it through every post at D'D, but I was finding the interactions with TXChris a bit puzzling, slightly disturbing, and seemingly unique in their (perceived by me) negative tone.

I treat evil people differently. When someone spreads the rubbish I pointed out in my last post, they deserve public humiliation. It is pure evil that this dude espouses, he is only here to impress Athena in a jousting match with poor, little me, and he deserves no respect until he recants his positions.

His current act is to appear gallant and mature, because the dude really wants to be loved. The mature thing to do would be to learn how to get your butt handed to you in a few debates, and form a genial relationship with your jouster afterwards.


Honestly, looking back, and I am being 100% sincere here, I'm not trying to be funny at all... I think TXChris is gay. I think he has feelings for me, and I think they scare him. Things really started to go sour after I posted a picture of my ass on the site, I really think that's where he started getting extra aggressive. Maybe during his MMA workouts, he gets his arms around another dude, and he can feel something that scares him. Maybe that's why he jacked his truck up and why he loves guns and lawlessness. Maybe his hatred of Hispanics has something to do with a former crush (but that is too much speculation). Looking at this thread, and seeing how Morbid was trying to get him to mention Athena, and the absurdity of seeing MY name instead, really clinches it for me.

Ok... back to joking... you can see why I am intrigued by the possibility of having my dick sucked by the dude. It seems like a very real prospect. And my wife has assured me that as long as I keep my pants on, having another dude go down on me is NOT "cheating".

[Lizard]

Oh, fuck, I did go offline, but it was because I was writing a really long message to Unamused Cat, I swear!

[swivel]

Oh, fuck, I did go offline, but it was because I was writing a really long message to Unamused Cat, I swear!

People that start lovely threads with pics, original synopses, and links get nothing but praise and flattering PM's from me. There is a reason you have everyone's thanks and nobody's groans.

And it isn't because you intimate free blowjobs, either.

[Lizard]

People that start lovely threads with pics, original synopses, and links get nothing but praise and flattering PM's from me. There is a reason you have everyone's thanks and nobody's groans.

And it isn't because you intimate free blowjobs, either.

<faints with joy, now really DOES have to change pants>

[swivel]

<faints with joy, now really DOES have to change pants>

Jesus, am I really that awful?

Maybe I need to dish out some oral sex for our active members, see if I can't repair my reputation a bit.

[Lizard]

Jesus, am I really that awful?

Maybe I need to dish out some oral sex for our active members, see if I can't repair my reputation a bit.

Honestly? Yes, swivel, I am a little afraid of you. I love being here, but I have the sense that if you or Morbid chose, you could easily drive me away. I read the posts, I know what your IQ is; I'm not mentally challenged, but I'm not your equal. I relish opportunities to stretch myself, but I really don't want to have the shit beaten out of me (so to speak). I firmly believe you have the capability of doing that if you chose.

And thank you for calling them "original synopses," but they're really just edited versions of what's out there. I read fast and I type fast, that about explains it. I like being able to add to the D'D "database" of shitheads and wackos and enjoy the commentary that follows the start of a new thread.

I imagine there are D'D members whose ears perked up at the mention of oral sex. Luckily, my husband is very generous in certain areas of our relationship, so I'm happy to report that he will do his bit to make sure you won't be overextended.

[nurseronda]

Jesus, am I really that awful?

Maybe I need to dish out some oral sex for our active members, see if I can't repair my reputation a bit.

Giggles....Swivel, you aren't awful, I love how you can make me laugh when I feel like I am having a bad day.

Lizard, you can't stop him from groaning. He is going to groan with or without oral sex....lol
:D

[Lizard]

I love being here, but I have the sense that if you or Morbid chose, you could easily drive me away.

And, Imp, don't think this reflects badly on you. You clearly have the capability of ripping the throat out of a poster, but perhaps it's different because you have not been here as long. I just had this image of trying to placate the two mean dogs in front of me while the one behind me rips my head off....

And NO, I don't typically think of you guys as mean dogs, but I have The Dog Whisperer on, gimme a break!

[swivel]

And, Imp, don't think this reflects badly on you. You clearly have the capability of ripping the throat out of a poster, but....

Funny you mention Impqueen, because she scares the ever-living shit out of me. I just try and stay away from her.

Have you read some of her email exchanges? Some of her comments to our frisky front-page posters? She is the D'Dominatrix. I feel like she could kill me with a fingernail.

I'm just glad we keep her chained to the front page so she can't spend more time in Three Things making me look like a dumbass.

[Athena]

WTF happened here? I look away for a moment (okay, a few days) and this had become some D'D circle jerk?

Shameful, people...Shameful.



Oh, and...For the love of god, swivel...I did not bring TXChris ever here for the "expressed purpose" of interacting with you. Why do you insist on stroking your own ego like that when I can do it for you?

Lizard, swivel is brilliant, handsome and all-around desirable...but he is wrong, on occasion. ^^^this BS being one such instance. ;)