Prescription Painkiller Deaths Eclipse Those of Illegal Drugs

[Athena]

Just how moral IS the War on Drugs if it continues to turn a blind eye to a rapidly growing threat to our children?

Prescription painkiller deaths in state surpass deaths from illegal drugs
By Amy Roe
Seattle Times Eastside bureau

http://news.softpedia.com/images/news2/Painkillers-Tied-to-Risk-of-Erectile-Dysfunction-2.JPG

Every day, 2,500 kids age 12-17 abuse a prescription painkiller for the first time, according to the White House Office of National Drug Control Police.

In this state, accidental deaths associated with the use of prescription opioids more than doubled between 1995 and 2004, putting it ahead of illegal drugs, according to data from the Department of Health. (Opioids are a family of pain-relieving drugs chemically related to opium.)

At least one in every 20 high-school seniors has tried OxyContin in the past year, according to a survey of 50,000 teenagers by the Institute for Social Research at the University of Michigan.

On Jan. 22, 28-year-old actor Heath Ledger died at age 28 from an accidental overdose of prescription painkillers, including oxycodone, the main ingredient in the prescription drug OxyContin, and hydrocodone, the primary pain reliever in the prescription drug Vicodin.

Last year, the government fined Purdue Pharma, the maker of OxyContin, $634 million for misleading doctors by failing to tell them of its high potential for addiction.

This fall, the state's Healthy Youth Survey, which is administered every two years, will for the first time include two questions about whether teens use painkillers, "such as Vicodin, OxyContin, or Percocet" to get high.

Kevin Beck, the survey's coordinator, said the questions on painkillers were added at the suggestion of public-health workers, counselors and educators.

"We don't readily make changes," Beck said. "There was a need to take a look at this."

[CPL CHUD]

This is the misuse of drugs. It's too bad too.

[impqueen]

After using Vicodin this week i can't imagine why anyone would want to get high on it. I've had dizziness (more than usual, hush Morbid), vague nausea, and vivid dreams - bleah. no thanks.

[Athena]

This is the misuse of drugs. It's too bad too.

Exactly. With billions aimed at decreasing the use of any illegal drug (intentional misuse of prescription meds is illegal), is the portion of the pie aimed at decreasing the misuse of prescription drugs proportionate to the number of drug-related deaths prescription meds cause? Or are government agencies hesitant to take more action because it might further restrict Big Pharm?

[Athena]

After using Vicodin this week i can't imagine why anyone would want to get high on it. I've had dizziness (more than usual, hush Morbid), vague nausea, and vivid dreams - bleah. no thanks.

My sister suffers from the same sort of side effects from most prescription painkillers. That's why it was so insulting when her last doctor dropped her, essentially accusing her of being a junkie, for asking for a scrip for the 3-5 days a month when her endometriosis acts up. Despite the side effects (she sweats and itches on top of those you mentioned), it's better than the debilitating pain her endo causes for a week a month. But either of those are preferable to the hormone therapy that her doctor arrogantly insisted upon.

It's frustrating.

That being said...How long are you supposed to be on them, Imp? Did the doc not go for your proposed course of alcohol therapy? :P

[impqueen]

That being said...How long are you supposed to be on them, Imp? Did the doc not go for your proposed course of alcohol therapy? :P

oh, he's fine with Pink Truck Therapy (and lurking here now!). The narcotics i only use about once a day and once at night so i can sleep, and hopefully only for a few more days.

But, uck. i can see using benzodiazepines for fun, but opiates get a big "boo" from me. Big Pharma may have big lobbies, but they can kiss my impish ass. :rolleyes:

[Angel]

Yet another reason to be thankful for my hypersensitivity to painkillers and anesthesia. I never have to worry about becoming a druggie!;) I can't take ANY of them......

[aspartame]

I dont know if anyone watches Intervention, but monday nights show was about teenagers and taking OxyContin, they were calling it OC's, it was nutso cause they stopped taking the OxyContin's because they were to expensive and moves over to heroin cause its cheaper!

[CPL CHUD]

It's too easy to get high now. Back in the day (which was a Tuesday by the way) kids had to resort to all sorts of weird inventive stuff to get high, like downing gallons of water. I think it was called hydrotripping or something.

[Athena]

I dont know if anyone watches Intervention, but monday nights show was about teenagers and taking OxyContin, they were calling it OC's, it was nutso cause they stopped taking the OxyContin's because they were to expensive and moves over to heroin cause its cheaper!

OMG...When I had a TV, I was addicted to that show (pun intended)! The ex used to poke fun at me because, out of all the fabulous shows on TV, the one that detailed the misery of addicts was the only one I'd go out of my way to watch. Drama queen? No, not really. Fuck 99% of reality TV. I just have a fascination with drug addicts, I guess. When I was a teenager, I befriended a pair of heroin addicts. Luke and Gary. People couldn't figure out why I hung out with them. It was interesting. Luke eventually pulled himself out, but I'm pretty sure Gary's still at it.

I don't kick it with known drug addicts, anymore. :p

Once, I saw either an Intervention or a Dateline documenting the road to rehab for an OC addict. The rehab facility couldn't get this young man a bed immediately, so they instructed his family to support his $300/day habit for the week or so until a bed became available. I couldn't believe it. $300 a DAY?!? I haven't spent that on illegal drugs in my entire LIFE (partially because I was a cute girl and got a lot for free, but whatever).

[Athena]

It's too easy to get high now. Back in the day (which was a Tuesday by the way) kids had to resort to all sorts of weird inventive stuff to get high, like downing gallons of water. I think it was called hydrotripping or something.

When I was a kid, dramamine was the in thing. I used to clown all day on cats who were essentially ODing on motion sickness medication to get high (I mean, seriously?), but they swore that too much of the stuff had hallucinogenic properties.

[aspartame]

im totally addicted to it too, i normally stay home on monday nights so i can watch it.

[nurseronda]

I had this case awhile back when a son's mother gave him her Valium to sell so she could pay some bills. The son took the drug home and put it on his nightstand. The son's 2 year old daughter was asked to go into the bedroom and get the dirty glass that was setting on his nightstand by her mommy. The mommy had no idea that drugs were in the bedroom. The daughter fell off the couch and when the mommy went to find out if her little girl was hurt, her eyes looked glazed. The mommy called the dad and when she saw the dad she knew that he had something in the house that the little girl had gotten ahold of. The dad ran into the room and ran back out again blaming the mommy for the daughter getting the drug. He went to hit the mommy because she wanted to take the daughter to the hospital. The mommy grabbed the phone and called the emergency squad. She took all the kids with her in the ambulance refusing to leave one child behind even though the ambulance driver told her she couldn't take them all with her. She did. The daughter just about died, we retrieved 20-10mg Valium out of the childs stomach that day.

[impqueen]

holy CATS. 200mg? Yikes. That's one baby that's lucky to be alive. And not so lucky to have drawn an idiot father card.

[nurseronda]

The idiot dad is dead now, killed in a car accident, yes, drugs were involved.

[skeptical]

I thought long and hard about posting on this all afternoon. It's a shame that so many kids are using drugs like this to get "high". My baby sister died of an intentional prescription drug overdose. That's right folks, suicide by various prescription drugs. It will be two years ago come May 5th. She had a real problem with prescription drugs. Vicodin, Klonopin, Xanax, Flexeril, you name it. She had a virtual pharmacy going on. Anything and everything that would put you to sleep and allow you to hide from the real world. She had insurance thru her job and thru her fiance's job and two or three doctors and pharmacies she was using. They were all prescribing her the same meds for various reasons, without each other knowing. She obviously had alot of issues that she didn't want to deal with. Starting with the fact that she let her ex have her youngest two daughters to raise and then found out when they were teenagers that he had been molesting them all their lives. (He's in prison now.) She could not forgive herself for choosing her freedom over her children. They were so very fucked up when she got them back. The youngest one still is. Then our mom got sick and almost died. After months in the hospital my sister decided to take her home to her house to care for her. I begged her not to do it cause I knew she couldn't handle the stress. Sure enough, a couple of months later she offed herself cause she couldn't deal with taking care of her and handling the youngest daughter anymore. We lived 75 miles apart and I was working two jobs 12 hrs a day six days a week and couldn't be there to help her much. This is my biological family I am talking about. I was put up for adoption before I was born and didn't meet any of my biological family until 1999. So, after this long rambling story I guess what I am saying is that there should be stricter guildlines or something for prescription drugs of this nature. Somebody should have caught this, the doctors, the pharmacies, the insurance companies, somebody. She never should have been able to get all that shit or in those quantities that easily. It just should not have happened. No one knew what she was doing till she was gone. She hid it and lied to everyone. There needs to be some kind of system in place to make it harder to abuse this type of medication. You go the the ER with something and they hand you a script for Vicodin ES 750/7.5 and send you on your way whether you need them or not. Okay, I'm finished now. LOL. Sorry guys, prescription drugs are just a really touchy subject with me.

[nurseronda]

In West Virginia, if you buy too many over the counter cold remedies that contain pseudoephedrine, they can go into your home and arrest you. We also have pharmacy and doctor shopping laws in place and as of now, they are working, but you know someone is going to figure out how to get these types of drugs when they are desperate enough to get them and figure a way around these laws.

[skeptical]

In West Virginia, if you buy too many over the counter cold remedies that contain pseudoephedrine, they can go into your home and arrest you. We also have pharmacy and doctor shopping laws in place and as of now, they are working, but you know someone is going to figure out how to get these types of drugs when they are desperate enough to get them and figure a way around these laws.

Yeah, I guess your right. We some laws about over the counter stuff here too. The ones that contain pseudoephedrine are kept behind the counter and you can only buy one or two boxes at a time and you have to give them your drivers license and sign for them. Boy! That's alot of ands, must work on my grammar!:lol: :out:

[swivel]

Just how moral IS the War on Drugs if it continues to turn a blind eye to a rapidly growing threat to our children?

Another way to read this story is that WE ARE WINNING THE WAR ON ILLEGAL DRUGS!

Making them harder to obtain, and too expensive to distribute, has kids turning to cough syrup, whip cream, and prescription drugs.

I want to give a hearty CONGRATULATIONS to our boys in blue. Job well done. 100% serious.


(the mistake people are making because of this story is the same one they make regarding health and natural killers. As we beat back one disease, another is going to take its place as the number one killer. We all have to die, so SOMETHING has to kill us. The fact that heart disease is the biggest killer is a sign of PROGRESS in dozens of other areas. And, just as death is inevitable, so is the desire kids will have to fuck themselves up. The answer will never be to make this goal as easy as possible for them.)

[Athena]

Another way to read this story is that WE ARE WINNING THE WAR ON ILLEGAL DRUGS!

Making them harder to obtain, and too expensive to distribute, has kids turning to cough syrup, whip cream, and prescription drugs.

I want to give a hearty CONGRATULATIONS to our boys in blue. Job well done. 100% serious.


(the mistake people are making because of this story is the same one they make regarding health and natural killers. As we beat back one disease, another is going to take its place as the number one killer. We all have to die, so SOMETHING has to kill us. The fact that heart disease is the biggest killer is a sign of PROGRESS in dozens of other areas. And, just as death is inevitable, so is the desire kids will have to fuck themselves up. The answer will never be to make this goal as easy as possible for them.)

Actually, we can't really say one way or the other, based on this article, can we? Only if the rate of illegal drug deaths had dropped could this increase in prescription drug deaths be seen as progress in the war on drugs. I don't know that's the case. Furthermore, this doesn't speak to success in the War on Drugs in any way, shape or form. Illegal drugs haven't necessarily become harder to get...Perhaps prescription drugs have simply become easier to obtain.

Also, I don't follow your logic regarding natural killers. It seems to me, if that were the case, overall death rates would never drop, because something would always be there to pick up the slack of a beaten disease.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Sadly, I don't believe it's a winnable war. There's just too much bullshit that people are getting into now to get high. I mean....you have your conventional drugs, now prescription drugs, shit that comes from the drugstores, grocery stores, you got motherfuckers getting high on paint and whipped cream? Fuck. And what's pretty sad is that young women get into it all the time, and it's such a social fucking coup to be involved with petty drugs. But then the shit turns to meth addiction, getting whored out young, and so forth.

I was extreme when I was young, like any other kid, but my high was violence. I eventually got involved with gun trading, gang activity and such....but we kicked the shit out of the junkies because we had this skewed, distorted version of justice that was silly, looking back at it...but I was a guy. What the fuck can my daughter get into if she rebels hard? Drugs. Women have drugs and hardcore sex to get into. Its fucked up, and I think it's harder for young women growing up, because they can't go get into some fights, get a few bloody noses and call it a rebellion as they retire their idiotic youthful bullshit years....

And hell...drugs is money. Anything that makes so much money will never go away. This is why the Miami Drug Wars in the 80's was always a lost cause, this is why motherfuckers like Pablo Escobar could wage military war with the police, and punk the American DEA for so many years before he finally got killed because of his own arrogances. Eh...this is turning into an incoherent rant, so enough of that.


I do, however, have a beef with this statement in the beginning of the original post:

Just how moral IS the War on Drugs if it continues to turn a blind eye to a rapidly growing threat to our children?

The War on Drugs is a joke, but should never be relented. But because there is another rabidly growing threat, how does that diminish the moral role the war plays at all? If you're fighting one monster in the name of justice, and another one comes out of the woods, why does the first fight become any less just?

[Athena]

Sadly, I don't believe it's a winnable war. There's just too much bullshit that people are getting into now to get high. I mean....you have your conventional drugs, now prescription drugs, shit that comes from the drugstores, grocery stores, you got motherfuckers getting high on paint and whipped cream? Fuck. And what's pretty sad is that young women get into it all the time, and it's such a social fucking coup to be involved with petty drugs. But then the shit turns to meth addiction, getting whored out young, and so forth.

I was extreme when I was young, like any other kid, but my high was violence. I eventually got involved with gun trading, gang activity and such....but we kicked the shit out of the junkies because we had this skewed, distorted version of justice that was silly, looking back at it...but I was a guy. What the fuck can my daughter get into if she rebels hard? Drugs. Women have drugs and hardcore sex to get into. Its fucked up, and I think it's harder for young women growing up, because they can't go get into some fights, get a few bloody noses and call it a rebellion as they retire their idiotic youthful bullshit years....

And hell...drugs is money. Anything that makes so much money will never go away. This is why the Miami Drug Wars in the 80's was always a lost cause, this is why motherfuckers like Pablo Escobar could wage military war with the police, and punk the American DEA for so many years before he finally got killed because of his own arrogances. Eh...this is turning into an incoherent rant, so enough of that.


I do, however, have a beef with this statement in the beginning of the original post:

Just how moral IS the War on Drugs if it continues to turn a blind eye to a rapidly growing threat to our children?

The War on Drugs is a joke, but should never be relented. But because there is another rabidly growing threat, how does that diminish the moral role the war plays at all? If you're fighting one monster in the name of justice, and another one comes out of the woods, why does the first fight become any less just?

Drug use is a threat to males and females alike. My drug use growing up was occasional and purely recreational (I was never addicted to anything and stayed away from traditional "hard" drugs). My sister, who did dabble in harder drugs, had a bunch of guy friends as drug buddies...AND she got into plenty of fights. We're lucky that her rebellious phase was fairly inexpensive, in the long run. In short, I don't believe that chicks are more prone to drug use, they just tend to do it for different reasons.

As for the latter part of your post - My point, here, is that prescription drugs is not ANOTHER threat. It's not a separate monster. From my perspective, illegal drug use is illegal drug use is illegal drug use. The government should be attacking Xanax abuse with the same fervor that they attack pot with, if they're going to continue to vainly fight this stuff. Sure, they'll need a different game plan, but the war has to remain flexible. My opinion is that they may be hesitant to do so because it will impact pharm companies, which have powerful lobbies and contribute to many campaigns. If that's the case, it reveals the war on drugs for what it really is - an effort to impose values, not necessarily to save lives.

[swivel]

Actually, we can't really say one way or the other, based on this article, can we?

That was my point. Guess I did a good job, because your first post doesn't read like the above sentence.


Also, I don't follow your logic regarding natural killers. It seems to me, if that were the case, overall death rates would never drop, because something would always be there to pick up the slack of a beaten disease.

That's what I said. The death rate is currently at 100%. That has been the rate on this planet for about 4.2 billion years.

The various causes for that rate shift and change, which is why I laugh when people moan about heart disease being the number 1 killer. When you get to the point that you can keep the populace alive long enough for the heart to give out, you are doing something GOOD.

[Athena]

That was my point. Guess I did a good job, because your first post doesn't read like the above sentence.

The death rate is currently at 100%. That has been the rate on this planet for about 4.2 billion years.

The various causes for that rate shift and change, which is why I laugh when people moan about heart disease being the number 1 killer. When you get to the point that you can keep the populace alive long enough for the heart to give out, you are doing something GOOD.

My first post was clear and read as I'd like it to read. I wasn't making a statement, I was asking a question. The allusion did not speak to the success or failure of the war's impact on illegal drug use, but rather that, perhaps, it is failing to proportionately address the role prescription drugs play in our drug culture for fear of further restricting the lucrative industry.

As for the rest, my statement was poorly worded. When looking at drug deaths, specifically, it almost seemed like you were posing an either/or. Either kids die from illegal drug use, or they'll die from prescription drug use. The point I was trying to make is that ALL drug-related deaths should drop. I don't like the fact that prescription drugs are simply taking the place of illegal drugs.

Furthermore, it could be argued that constant and realistic education is the only thing that has a significant impact on drug use rates. If the billions we spend on law enforcement as it specifically pertains to drugs were instead focused on education, I think we'd see a more significant impact than we are, currently. It doesn't matter how easy a drug is to obtain if the kid doesn't care to obtain it in the first place.

[swivel]

The solution to drug use is simple: STOP TELLING KIDS THAT DRUGS ARE BAD.

Kids know better. When we tell them that drugs are bad, they have years of "Vegetables are good/sugar is bad" to innure them to our lies. They also have hundreds of anecdotal reasons to believe otherwise. If drugs are so bad, why are all of their friends doing everything they can to get their hands on the stuff? Why is it so expensive? Everyone knows that the expensive shit is good. If a kid offers me free cocaine, I would be an idiot to pass it up. That's like leaving a $20 on the ground.

New tactic: TELL KIDS THE TRUTH.

Tell them that drugs aren't just good, they might be the best-feeling thing you can possibly try. They are better than sex. They tap right into the pleasure centers of the brain, making you feel better than any other single thing ever will in your entire life. As a matter of fact, drugs are so goddamn good, that once you have tried them, you will never really enjoy anything else to its fullest. You will want to do drugs more than you will want to go to school. Or work. Or have a relationship with the opposite sex. Or spend time with family and friends. Or eat. Or wash your clothes.

Drugs are so goddamn good that once you try them, you can't un-try them. You stand a good chance of wanting to do them for the rest of your life. You will be enslaved by them from JUST ONE TASTE. And they are expensive, so you will have to do crazy shit to try and afford them.

I have a neat idea for a new program: Kids get full credit for a highschool class if they volunteer for 3 hours a week in a drug rehab center, homeless shelter, or AA program for a semester. And while they are there, we keep reminding them that drugs and alcohol are the best shit ever. Better than having a fulfilling life. Better than learning how to derive pleasure from learning, or exploring nature, or having a meaningful relationship.

[skeptical]

The solution to drug use is simple: STOP TELLING KIDS THAT DRUGS ARE BAD.


New tactic: TELL KIDS THE TRUTH.


You do have a point there Swivel. If I remember correctly thru all the haze of my teenage years, forbidden fruit is always the most tempting. Tell them no, you can't, it's illegal, it's forbidden, and most kids will do it for sure or die trying. That's not just with drugs either, it's with drinking, sex, racing their cars, etc. I took a rather liberal outlook on things with my son when he lived at home. At about 15 I started allowing him to drink some at home, and try smoking, and a few other harmless things like protected sex and I now have a 19 yr old productive member of the community that I can be proud of. My stance was I would rather you do it and I know about it than to have you sneak around and do it behind my back, so if there is something you are curious about and want to try, come to me and we will discuss it. This could very well have bit me in the ass, but, thank god, it worked out well and I have a wonderfully mature son I can be proud of.

[Athena]

Hear, hear.

It was that exact tactic that kept me away from hard drugs like coke and heroin. In my freshman year of high school, our Health teacher showed us those infamous pictures that detailed the physical erosion of a female drug addict/prostitute who went from a relatively attractive, young blonde to a haggard 80 year old looking toothless creature in about 10 years. While showing us these images, he asked us, "Now, is anything in your life so good that you would be willing to do this to yourself just to keep doing it? If a sport or a videogame caused this, would you stick with it?" Of course, the obvious consensus was "No". He continued on to explain to us how this could happen to us because drugs were SO fun, you wouldn't ever want to quit, despite what it did to your life.

He went on to explain that this was the decision each and one of us had to make. We could give up the most fun thing we might ever do now, before we knew what we were missing, and guarantee ourselves protection from winding up like the lady in those pictures...or, we could try that fun thing and risk it all.

When people ask me why I never did hard drugs, despite being part of that "scene", I say, "It's because I can't trust myself not to like them too much."

That being said, I went on to experiment with just about every substance that wasn't physically addictive I could get my hands on and had a great time with it. :p

[swivel]

and I now have a 19 yr old productive member of the community that I can be proud of. My stance was I would rather you do it and I know about it than to have you sneak around and do it behind my back, so if there is something you are curious about and want to try, come to me and we will discuss it. This could very well have bit me in the ass, but, thank god, it worked out well and I have a wonderfully mature son I can be proud of.

My mother did the same thing. She taught at my highschool, and knew kids better than any psychologist in her day. She let us do stupid things in moderation, under supervision, so we could see that they were stupid and not rebellious.

It worked on my sister and I. My brother figured out she was holding out on us, tried some harder shit, and now he flies to Amsterdam twice a year and tries to stay fucked up 24/7.

[I am Legend]

some kids are gonna do drugs and some arent, no matter what you tell them. drug use will never go away. (the preceding is a FACT)

if i was 15 and had to look forward to gas being $50.00/gallon by the time i was 30 i would be getting fucked up daily.

[Athena]

You do have a point there Swivel. If I remember correctly thru all the haze of my teenage years, forbidden fruit is always the most tempting. Tell them no, you can't, it's illegal, it's forbidden, and most kids will do it for sure or die trying. That's not just with drugs either, it's with drinking, sex, racing their cars, etc. I took a rather liberal outlook on things with my son when he lived at home. At about 15 I started allowing him to drink some at home, and try smoking, and a few other harmless things like protected sex and I now have a 19 yr old productive member of the community that I can be proud of. My stance was I would rather you do it and I know about it than to have you sneak around and do it behind my back, so if there is something you are curious about and want to try, come to me and we will discuss it. This could very well have bit me in the ass, but, thank god, it worked out well and I have a wonderfully mature son I can be proud of.

Congrats on the okay 19 year old, lady. It's no easy task. :)

However, I do not endorse your parenting strategy as something every parent should do. The "forbidden fruit" hypothesis is faulty; your child's behavior has very little, if anything to do with the status of certain items. Respect and education are the key factors; without those two things, one simply cannot risk sanctioning such dangerous activities, even under supervision.

You can educate your children without first-hand experience. I was rased in, what I believed until adulthood to be a drug-free home. Sure, my parents smoked and drank, but other than that, I never saw a hint of anything (come to find out they were somewhat regular pot smokers and very occasional coke users). Aside from the occasional wine with dinner, drinking was not sanctioned by my parents, nor was smoking, sex, or any illegal drug.

I drank and smoked as a teenager, but not in my parent's house. I also used the occasional illegal drug (pot, mushrooms seasonally, ecstacy a handful of times and acid once...blech). My parents educated the HELL out of me. They never once said, "It's okay if you do this," but, instead, "We know this is a possibility - we don't endorse it, but here are the facts". My mom never took me to get birth control, but she made damn sure I knew how to obtain it.

My younger sister, Alexandra, a.k.a "Veenie", while raised in the exact same manner, turned out very differently. This is because, by the time I was moving out at the age of 18, my parents' alcoholism got very bad and it caused my 13 year old sister to lose respect for them. All the education in the world won't guarantee a healthy child unless they respect you and the structure you lay for them. At the age of 14, she smoked crack for the first (and thankfully, only) time. During her 15th year, she had a stint with meth addiction. That piece of information resulted in the only physical altercation she and I ever engaged in. Yep, I found out she was using and kicked her ass. I also threatened the two friends supplying it to her with consequences they couldn't have wrapped their young minds around that day, and reamed my folks for not being vigilant enough.

I realised what had happened, here. My sister was raised with the same values and education and intellect that I was afforded. Unfortunately, she had lost respect for my parents and that fouled EVERYTHING up. So, shortly after she turned 16 and just before I turned 21, I usurped custody from my parents. She came to live with me and my (now ex) boyfriend. The change in her behavior was immediate. I had never given her any reason to disrespect me, so, while it was a struggle, she met me halfway. No more drugs; not a single fight while she lived under my roof (or since, but she was a regular Ali before she came to live with me, hospitalising girls left and right)...and even maintained Cs or better in all her classes (with my parents, she flunked her entire freshman year). After three years with me, she graduated high school and moved out. She's lived the live of an upstanding adult ever since (she'll be 21 in May).

The flip side of that coin is that the above mentioned ex lived in a very similar environment to that which you created for your son. Mom said that she'd rather he be at home, where he could be supervised, rather than out with who knows who doing who knows what. He didn't do anything too extreme at his mother's house - mostly drank, smoked some pot and had sex. She was a single mother, though, and didn't have the time to educate him like she should've. Aside from that, she often subjected herself to abusive relationships, so, while he loved her dearly, he didn't really respect her.

As far as his mother knew, he was experiencing everything he wanted and they had a really healthy, open relationship. What was actually going on was that, outside the home, he became a meth addict. She didn't even realize until nearly a year into it, when he began stealing from her. Luckily, he got a bag that made him violently ill. After that, he could never even be in a room where the stuff was being smoked, it would evoke such a severe physical reaction. Had that not happened, he'd surely be dead, or would have spent some serious time in the pokie.

So, there you have it. A case where an anti-drug upbring worked, a case where it failed, a case where a more liberal upbring failed, and yours (skeptical) where it worked. I could be wrong, but I'd be the farm on education and respect. I might not have required six lengthy paragraphs, but what the hell. :p

[swivel]

So, there you have it. A case where an anti-drug upbring worked, a case where it failed, a case where a more liberal upbring failed, and yours (skeptical) where it worked. I could be wrong, but I'd be the farm on education and respect. I might not have required six lengthy paragraphs, but what the hell. :p

Don't apologize for length when it is original and insightful.

If you want a good read on why kids turn out differently, even though they share the same environment, check out Judith Harris' book "No Two Alike". It is a must-read (as is her book "The Nurture Assumption", which should be read first if possible)


While I agree with your conclusion, "Kids who respect their parents don't get into as much trouble", it just re-words the problem instead of solving it. Now the question becomes, "How do I get my kids to respect me?" (or listen to me, if I think education is an important factor). You see? Your answer doesn't solve anything, it just creates a half-way station from which we still can't see the finish line.

In the case of my mother, she never lied to us about shit. She told us how the world was, and let us dip into the real world under supervision. So, perhaps "Tell the Truth" is the answer to winning your kids' respect AND the answer to reduced malfeasance. See where I'm going?

[skeptical]

Congrats on the okay 19 year old, lady. It's no easy task. :)

So, there you have it. A case where an anti-drug upbring worked, a case where it failed, a case where a more liberal upbring failed, and yours (skeptical) where it worked. I could be wrong, but I'd be the farm on education and respect. I might not have required six lengthy paragraphs, but what the hell. :p

Athena, you would be correct in the fact that without repsect it probably wouldn't work. My adoptive parents raised me the way I did my son and I did respect them. They were awesome. Not to good with the education part but awesome none the less. I did educate my son, and he did and does respect with me, which is more than likely why it worked. We have always been very close.

[Athena]

Don't apologize for length when it is original and insightful.

If you want a good read on why kids turn out differently, even though they share the same environment, check out Judith Harris' book "No Two Alike". It is a must-read (as is her book "The Nurture Assumption", which should be read first if possible)


While I agree with your conclusion, "Kids who respect their parents don't get into as much trouble", it just re-words the problem instead of solving it. Now the question becomes, "How do I get my kids to respect me?" (or listen to me, if I think education is an important factor). You see? Your answer doesn't solve anything, it just creates a half-way station from which we still can't see the finish line.

In the case of my mother, she never lied to us about shit. She told us how the world was, and let us dip into the real world under supervision. So, perhaps "Tell the Truth" is the answer to winning your kids' respect AND the answer to reduced malfeasance. See where I'm going?

Oh, certainly. I wasn't intending to provide a solution, necessarily. How to get your child to respect you varies depending on the circumstance and I would not be so bold as to attempt to offer a standard. The recipe for respect requires multiple ingredients.

In my case, my parents provided consistent structure and discipline. Furthermore, I could always trust that they had my best interests at heart. My father was no hard-liner; if I felt as though a ruling of his was unfair, I was free to logically debate the merits of my position. On a rare occasion or two, he actually adjusted his ruling. If I asked, "But, why?" I wouldn't never get, "Because I said so." My parents were intent on illustrating the reason behind their rules. Not to justify - my parents needed no justification, they simply wanted me to see the mechanisms behind good judgment, not just the end result. Showing me how they got there would eventually help me come to solid conclusions on my own.

Due to my parents' alcoholism, their system broke down for my sister. Their structure became unclear; their discipline was practically non-existent, and it was painfully obvious that her ultimate well-being was taking a back seat to their addiction. My sister had no reason to respect them. Hell, I didn't respect them any longer.

My parents always told us the truth. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough. When I was able to provide my sister with the consistency and clear interest in her well-being that she required, she righted herself in no time.

[McVain]

When I was a kid, dramamine was the in thing. I used to clown all day on cats who were essentially ODing on motion sickness medication to get high (I mean, seriously?), but they swore that too much of the stuff had hallucinogenic properties.

I would almost guarantee that Dramamine does have hallucinogenic properties at large doses. I believe it is related to Diphenhydramine which is found in some antihistamines such as Benadryl, and also in OTC sleep-aids such as Unisom. I can tell you from personal experience (yes, I was stupid and desperate enough to do this) that Diphenhydramine in large doses can make you hallucinate. If you take about 800mgs of that stuff you'll know fairly quickly. However, I believe there's only 25mgs of it in Benadryl and 50 in Unisom (In the gel tabs in the USA, I think you can get 100mgs in Europe and Australia). So you have to take enough of them that you know something bad is likely to occur. I'm not sure how well people can stay awake after taking them but personally I can take excessive doses of any OTC sleep-aid and stay awake all night. I'm past doing dumb shit like that now (I HOPE), and I can tell you that while it can make for an interesting trip (and a good way to forget life's problems), it's dangerous as hell and the after effects (which are not pleasant) can mess you up for quite a few days afterwards.

As for painkillers, I'm actually quite terrified of abusing them. I can definitely see why a lot of people do though. I'm currently taking Tussionex; a narcotic cough syrup containing 5mg of Hydrocodone and some amount of Chlorphenamine which is a antihistamine that I think is in Coricidin. It was prescribed to me a few days ago to relieve my Bronchitis (I find it interesting that Codeine and Hydrocodone affect the part of the brain that urges you to cough). The 5mg of Hydrocodone in the Tussionex (which is comparable to most Vicodin) is enough to give me a bit of that comfortably numb feeling. Personally I really quite enjoy that feeling and I don't get any dizziness or nausea along with it (strange considering I'm supposedly allergic to Codeine, which is what Hydrocodone is derived from). I haven't really played around with opiates so I'm not sure if they're all similar (I've taken E a few times in the past and I was told it is a similar high to that of Heroin. The euphoria was similar to that of hydrocodone but more exaggerated). I don't plan to find out though, There's a good chance I'm allergic to more of them and a cousin of mine ODed on Heroine on his first use of it (which was, according to another cousin of mine who shot him up with it, a normal level for beginners.).

Painkiller abuse is HUGE these days. Even with the older population. I met a girl that is currently in the ARMY at a party a couple months back that was completely wasted and probably bordering on alcohol poison that made no attempt to hide the fact that she was crushing up and snorting various painkillers. Apparently people just hand them to her on a whim which I suppose means that there are quite a few normal job having folks carrying around bottles of the things with them. They didn't seem to believe me about how easy it is to overdose on the things while you're drunk. It was the first time since 5th grade that I was the one that was trying to get people to STOP doing drugs. Don't get me wrong, I've never been one to try to get someone to take drugs with me but when I was in my teens and everyone wanted to do speed, weed and cocaine I was pretty much up for anything short of shooting up heroine and fucking with common household items (which is ironic in a way).

On Easter I had a conversation with my highly religious 80+ year old grandmother about the addiction of painkillers. She recently had shoulder surgery and upon telling a friend at the church that she had been prescribed OxyCodone or Vicodin (I can't recall which), the woman without hesitation asked her how much she wanted for them. This was a crazy thought to me. Sure, teens and people in their 20s are doing tons of this stuff, but a 70 year old woman trying to buy painkillers from a woman in her 80s that she goes to church with completely blows my mind. And my grandmother had the audacity to laugh as she told me this. This is the same woman that thinks crazed potheads are cavorting through the streets licking toads and sodomizing old ladies while simultaneously jerking off into a bottle of ether and shoving it into the innocent faces of toddlers. And she can actually laugh at the thought of an old god fearing Christian lady trying to persuade her to sell the same drugs that are overtaking pretty much every other drug in the nation?

Shit, I think I'll just stick with smoking weed in a dark room while I read novels by the likes of George Orwell and Ayn Rand.

[TC-JAV]

Years ago I went to pain clinic for severe back pain(I've had severe back problems since I was 13 plus surgery) and took strong pain meds. My kids knew better than to take my meds! They cared for me and knew I needed them for my back . Only 2 of my kids slightly experimented with drugs, but are thru that phase.
Anyway I have no health insurence now and Drs. act like you're gonna be addicted if they give you 20 vicodins or something. I think the DEA has scared Drs. out of giving anything decent for pain. I took pain meds for 5 years and got off them by tapering them down and had no withdrawal symtoms!
Anyway, I suffer alot daily since I can't get anything for pain(I can't take NSAIDS because of stomach problems). Teens getting high on prescription drugs makes it hard for people with legit reasons get medicine they need.:mad:

[swivel]

I doubt it is the DEA. I think doctors are worried about how addictive some painkillers are.

They are also stingy with penicillin, and all its varieties. Abuse has created "super bugs" that are creating havoc.

[Athena]

I doubt it is the DEA. I think doctors are worried about how addictive some painkillers are.

They are also stingy with penicillin, and all its varieties. Abuse has created "super bugs" that are creating havoc.

I agree. ESPECIALLY about the antibiotics. It's a pet peeve of mine. Occasionally, I overhear people talk about how they requested antibiotics from their doctor. It disturbs me. I tend to say something a bit rude like, "Don't you think, if the professional thought you needed them, he would have prescribed them to you? You know they don't fix colds, right?"

Retards. They don't even know the harm they cause.

[swivel]

Retards. They don't even know the harm they cause.

The lazy, idiotic fucks who quit taking their meds as soon as they feel better are going to lead directly to the death of hundreds of billions of humans (assuming we don't go extinct for another 1,000 years).

[Athena]

The lazy, idiotic fucks who quit taking their meds as soon as they feel better are going to lead directly to the death of hundreds of billions of humans (assuming we don't go extinct for another 1,000 years).

No shit. You know, I've got my issues with public education. Among the top, however, is the fact that we really ought to be using it to our advantage better. Namely, explaining to kids how not following the directions on antibiotics essentially vaccinates the bacteria you're trying to fight. People need to understand that super-bugs are here NOW and that there is a very immediate threat, even if it's not at a bubonic plague scale, yet.

[swivel]

No shit. You know, I've got my issues with public education. Among the top, however, is the fact that we really ought to be using it to our advantage better. Namely, explaining to kids how not following the directions on antibiotics essentially vaccinates the bacteria you're trying to fight. People need to understand that super-bugs are here NOW and that there is a very immediate threat, even if it's not at a bubonic plague scale, yet.

Wanna hear some really bad news? Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (I copied that out of Discover, so please don't think I know what MRSA is by heart) has been found in live pigs in Canada. One forth of the 285 pigs studied were infected.

Now, cooking meat to a proper temperature will kill MRSA just as surely as E. coli, but the shit that is killing hospital patients by the tens of thousands is in your fridge.

The good news is that no protein will ever be immune to heat, so we don't have to worry about a resistant strain killing mankind (gentiles), but you should start treating your pork with the same respect you treat chicken.

[Athena]

Wanna hear some really bad news? Methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (I copied that out of Discover, so please don't think I know what MRSA is by heart) has been found in live pigs in Canada. One forth of the 285 pigs studied were infected.

Now, cooking meat to a proper temperature will kill MRSA just as surely as E. coli, but the shit that is killing hospital patients by the tens of thousands is in your fridge.

The good news is that no protein will ever be immune to heat, so we don't have to worry about a resistant strain killing mankind (gentiles), but you should start treating your pork with the same respect you treat chicken.

Son of a bitch. Seriously? Fuck. That means people are going to go back to cooking the shit out of pork, again. And I had just convinced everyone that a slight pink was okay.

Fucking hell.

[swivel]

I'm sure pink is okay.

[Athena]

I'm sure pink is okay.

Pink IS okay. But do you have any idea the kind of bullshit it took for me to convince people of this? Years of baseless indoctrination I had to reverse. I had to pull every card short of, "Okay, I'll eat it first. If I don't keel over, it's safe, alright?"

Now, if I give them a legitimate concern (even if it's easily negated by some heat), they'll slip right back into old ways.

To hell with it. I'm not governed by the FDA. I don't need to disclaim shit. What they don't know won't kill them...unless I really undercook it. :p

[ThreeOnAMeathook]

Pink IS okay.

I love pink.

Communists
Vagina
Those sweatpants from Victoria's Secret that girls wear
Breast Cancer ribbons
meat color
Pink Panther
Pink Floyd
Horace Pinker

etc.

I think we can all agree. Pink FTW.

[Athena]

What...you think the rule only applies to B-D? Like you can just come over here and NOT speak Italian, or something? Geez. No follow through with you youngins. ;)

[ThreeOnAMeathook]

mi dispiace...

rosa e molto bene.

lol

vorrei una ragazza in......Pink sweatpants

[Athena]

3OAM...We really don't see you around here enough, darlin'. You still seeing that one girl?

Holla... ;)

[McVain]

On the subject of over use of Antibiotics... As a young kid my family doctor would prescribe antibiotics, and lots of them, for ANYTHING. I was on antibiotics all of the damn time. And of course, the more that I took them the harder it was for me to combat REAL illnesses. Finally we got a new family doctor and for the next few years I would get really sick pretty frequently but the new doctor wouldn't give antibiotics unless it was quite severe. After awhile I guess my immune system built back up and now I don't get sick all that often. I do get bronchitis almost every winter but that is likely due to my severe asthma and allergies.

I've come to a somewhat startling realization in regards to my prescription of Tussionex (hydrocodone cough syrup). The doctor prescribed me 23 days worth of the stuff (that's at 2 doses a day)! The pharmacist was quite shocked when I took in the prescription and seemed a little curious to the whole situation. She told me that doctors normally prescribe half that amount at most and that the medication is often abused by users. She asked me quite a few questions before filling my order.

I'm fairly certain that if I continue taking it at the recommended dosage that I will build up such a high enough tolerance to it that I'll get nothing out of it all. I can already notice a big difference between the way it makes me feel now as opposed to 4 days ago. I've considered making daily entries as long as I'm taking it in order to create a log detailing my tolerance to it and whether or not I become addicted to it in any truly noticeable way. I've read that regular use of any opiate for longer than a 2 week period can result in withdrawal symptoms if stopped abruptly. It's almost scary to think about that considering how easy it would be for me personally to get Vicodin and other painkillers. However, I'm pretty good at dealing with withdrawals without giving in to temptation. I should probably discontinue the use of it as soon as possible anyway though.

[CPL CHUD]

This is why I don't take any medication unless I am really, truly, totally fucked up, oozing, dripping, ill.

[McVain]

I've come to a somewhat startling realization in regards to my prescription of Tussionex (hydrocodone cough syrup). The doctor prescribed me 23 days worth of the stuff (that's at 2 doses a day)! The pharmacist was quite shocked when I took in the prescription and seemed a little curious to the whole situation. She told me that doctors normally prescribe half that amount at most and that the medication is often abused by users. She asked me quite a few questions before filling my order.

I'm fairly certain that if I continue taking it at the recommended dosage that I will build up such a high enough tolerance to it that I'll get nothing out of it all. I can already notice a big difference between the way it makes me feel now as opposed to 4 days ago. I've considered making daily entries as long as I'm taking it in order to create a log detailing my tolerance to it and whether or not I become addicted to it in any truly noticeable way. I've read that regular use of any opiate for longer than a 2 week period can result in withdrawal symptoms if stopped abruptly. It's almost scary to think about that considering how easy it would be for me personally to get Vicodin and other painkillers. However, I'm pretty good at dealing with withdrawals without giving in to temptation. I should probably discontinue the use of it as soon as possible anyway though.

I really hate to bring threads this old back but... I think is important to note that today is my first day off of heroin in about a year. So my point is... Don't be a fucking moron and abuse opiates. You could do something stupid like myself and become a slave to them.

Seriously... if you read back through this thread you will see how innocently it started for me. I really felt the need to post this when I remembered this thread earlier in the week.

[Nell]

I have been to rehab twice for opiates. It sucked getting off them. Listen to McVain.

Good job coming here to let everyone know man.

[Dark Star]

I really hate to bring threads this old back but... I think is important to note that today is my first day off of heroin in about a year. So my point is... Don't be a fucking moron and abuse opiates. You could do something stupid like myself and become a slave to them.

Seriously... if you read back through this thread you will see how innocently it started for me. I really felt the need to post this when I remembered this thread earlier in the week.

Thanks for sharing. I am so glad to "see" you back.

Hugs~
Hippie

[StashRider]

Man, I really like drugs. All kinds of them.

When I was young, dumb, and all sorts of victimized I abused them to the extent that I had to be shipped off to rehab a couple of times. They said that I would never be able to take drugs again and that an addict was always an addict.

I found out that wasn't completely true. At least in my case. I continue to use various drugs(mushrooms, opiates, alcohol) in a steady but slow pace. About every two weeks I ingest something and I like it.

It doesn't add anything profound to my life, but it does relieve stress and basically resets my mood so I can handle all the slings and arrows life has to offer. Mushrooms are the best for that.

I can honestly say that I may be a drug user for life. Even if I have children I may sneak off once every so often to celebrate myself and then return back to my duties. I know for certain that I will allow myself use in old age.

I also know that I will never return to my previous behavior. I don't blame the drugs for what I've done to people before, I blame myself. It took me a while to figure out that I was an asshole for a lot of reasons, and not because I like to get high. I've considered being a chemical dependency counselor and offer services based on that view. I know I changed my life not because someone said I had a drug problem, but because one mean old counselor said I was a jerk for the sake of being a jerk. And he was right.

[Stella]

I really hate to bring threads this old back but... I think is important to note that today is my first day off of heroin in about a year. So my point is... Don't be a fucking moron and abuse opiates. You could do something stupid like myself and become a slave to them.

Seriously... if you read back through this thread you will see how innocently it started for me. I really felt the need to post this when I remembered this thread earlier in the week.

This achievement is important to "note", and I'm glad that you bumped the thread back up, just for this point alone.

You're so right. Abuse of any type of substance usually starts out innocently ("it won't happen to me"). Some people think they're invincible and their drug of choice only reinforces that feeling, IMO.

Keep up the good work and the right frame of mind! (And I know it must be "work", in a sense, each and every day.)

{S}