Our Foreign Policy NEVER Makes Us A Target OR They Hate Us, But Not For Our Freedom

[Athena]

I could have posted this in the Kosovo thread, but it speaks to a greater discussion to be had.

Don't think that our foreign policy is the cause of attacks against our citizens? Behold...

http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20080221/capt.xdmv13502211845.aptopix_serbia_kosovo_indepen dence_xdmv135.jpg

Belgrade's US Embassy Set on Fire
By SLOBODAN LEKIC, Associated Press Writer
31 minutes ago

BELGRADE, Serbia - Serb rioters set fire to an office inside the U.S. Embassy Thursday and police clashed with protesters outside other embassy buildings after a large demonstration against Kosovo's declaration of independence.

Masked attackers broke into the U.S. compound, which has been closed this week, and tried to throw furniture from an office. They set fire to the office and flames shot up the side of the building.

More... (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080221/ap_on_re_eu/serbia_kosovo_independence)


And yet, despite blatant examples like this, some people continue to believe that our foreign policy in no way provokes attack. I'm not saying it justifies the attacks, but there's certainly some things we could do differently.

[swivel]

And yet, despite blatant examples like this, some people continue to believe that our foreign policy in no way provokes attack. I'm not saying it justifies the attacks, but there's certainly some things we could do differently.

The main reason we are attacked is because we are on top. No other reason would even appear on a graph if plotted to scale.

[Athena]

The main reason we are attacked is because we are on top. No other reason would even appear on a graph if plotted to scale.

I solidly believe our foreign policy is what drives these attacks. The only reason us being on top plays into it is because makes our foreign policy really matter.

[swivel]

I solidly believe our foreign policy is what drives these attacks. The only reason us being on top plays into it is because makes our foreign policy really matter.

We do more good for foreign nations than bad. But people only look at the bad, because they already hate us, because we are on top.

I had a kid in a coffee shop today tell me that 9/11 was because of the war in Iraq.

The current war. Seriously.


Take Afghanistan as an example. We gave assistance to their country to allow them to remain independent from Russia. Later, the same guys want our complete destruction. Why?

They sent one plane for our Executive branch, where our foreign policy is made. They sent one to the Pentagon, where we wage wars. They sent two for our economic center. Their own words betray their agenda, they hate how prosperous we are. We are "decadent". "Spoiled". "Bean-Counters". "Lazy". "Evil".

They care about our lifestyles. They attack American people. Their reaction to our foreign policy is fueled by a hate that already existed. If we left the rest of the world alone, they would still come after us. Clinton did everything he could to appease the anti-Israel crowd. His foreign policy is the exact crap that people say we need to get "back" to. The USS Cole and 9/11 and several embassy attacks happened anyway.

My prediction is that we will become insular again, and be attacked again, and retaliate again, and become insular again, and so on. And people will keep victim-blaming.

[TXChris]

We have done a hell of a lot of bad in the Middle East, though, and that's the problem.

There have been numerous polls in the Islamic world, two of them in what we would consider "friendly" Arab countries and were released by the University of Maryland and the Arab American Institute and Zogby International. The indications from the results of these polls is that the United States is hated for its foreign policy, not culture, technology, or freedom as we are constantly told.

I mean, seriously, it's crazy that we attacked Afghanistan and Iraq, two countries which really had no way of messing with our national security, yet we funnel money toward the wealthier Arab countries, like Saudi Arabia. Hell, Saudi charities have been caught funneling money to terrorist organizations, yet we still call them a "good partner" in helping to fight the war on terror? Does one forget that most of the murderers on 9/11 were Saudis? Yeah, we definitely have some f*cked up foreign policies.

Then there's Pakistan. We have continued to support a military dictator that was not even elected by the people. How is THAT promoting Democracy? We have sent untold amounts of money their way, since 9/11, because they promised to help us fight terror. And, how helpful have they actually been, even with all this support and money from us? Not very helpful at all. As a matter of fact, Pakistan has since sold technology to North Korea which was directly responsible for its new nuclear capability.

Does one also forget that 50-somewhat years ago we propped up the Shah of Iran to prevent nationalization of Iran's oil? Once again, this was to "protect" our supply of oil, not to promote Democracy to the region. So, to insinuate that our foreign policy is not the direct cause of this blowback (9/11) is pure lunacy.

[gprime]

The main reason we are attacked is because we are on top. No other reason would even appear on a graph if plotted to scale.

I think it depends on the situation. The reason Islamists want to attack us is because of their religious mandate to wage jihad until a global caliphate governed by sharia law. And, as you point out, we're a prime target. If you can damage a world power, it is alot more impressive than crushing Singapore. But of course in their case, we aren't the only target. In Europe (East and West), Asia, Africa, the Pacific, and Canada are having the same problem. The only place that seems to be safe so far is Latin America. And I'm sure that will change soon enough.

As per the incident Athena's post mentions directly, it was entirely the consequence of American foreign policy. Aside from leading to unjust wars against the Serbs in the 90's, they were the driving force behind Kosovo's independence. What else are individual, unarmed Serbian citizens to do besides seek retribution by bombing an embassy? Frankly, not only do I not blame them, but I stand in support of them on this one.

[swivel]

It isn't like there were that many protestors, either. When people say, "The rest of the world hates us", they are referring to the small number of jobless men who are looking for a reason to throw bombs.

Bush just went to Africa where he was treated like the Messiah. It was creepy, frankly.

The thing is, if there are a few thousand people in the same city who hear the news and say, "Who cares, good riddance". Those people aren't starting fires and getting on the news.

In my travels I have found nothing but love directed towards me as an American.

Regardless of all of this, I still contend that their primary motivation is to hate those who are on top. This has been the case for all of human history. A certain percentage would be throwing bombs no matter what our foreign policy was, so there is no way to gauge our foreign policy on the outcry of others.

[TXChris]

I'm with you on a lot of what you have said. Here's the thing, though, is it not reasonable to suggest that our foreign policy, with everything noted in this thread already, has increased the support base of these terrorists? By doing as we have, one can successfully argue that the United States has indirectly given them access to more physical and monetary support, and we have also given them direct incidents from which to direct, and support, their hatred, which might be more palatable by the less extreme of soon-to-be supporters?

[Athena]

What else are individual, unarmed Serbian citizens to do besides seek retribution by bombing an embassy? Frankly, not only do I not blame them, but I stand in support of them on this one.

While I do not agree with our government's stance on Kosovo, I'm rather shocked by your suggestion that the attack on the embassy is justified...

For obvious reasons. I mean, if you need to me to explain, let me know. :p

[gprime]

Actually, I do need you to explain. As far as I'm concerned, American actions regarding Kosovo were functionally declarations of war. In a war, any attacks are legitimate, including embassies. And I have no loyalty to the United States, so I'm not inclined to support it in a war where it takes the wrong side.

[Athena]

Actually, I do need you to explain. As far as I'm concerned, American actions regarding Kosovo were functionally declarations of war. In a war, any attacks are legitimate, including embassies. And I have no loyalty to the United States, so I'm not inclined to support it in a war where it takes the wrong side.

"Were". Yes, they were. However, this bombing was in direct retaliation against the U.S. government merely recognising Kosovo independence. We are no longer at war. Are you suggesting that this embassy attack is some sort of WAY delayed response?

[swivel]

I'm with you on a lot of what you have said. Here's the thing, though, is it not reasonable to suggest that our foreign policy, with everything noted in this thread already, has increased the support base of these terrorists? By doing as we have, one can successfully argue that the United States has indirectly given them access to more physical and monetary support, and we have also given them direct incidents from which to direct, and support, their hatred, which might be more palatable by the less extreme of soon-to-be supporters?

I was standing at the base of the WTC when I saw what the cost of a one-way ticket and a box-cutter could do. I'm not worried about their increased recruitment. They were doing just fine before we took the war to them. They aren't doing so well right now.

We have taken so much money from them that it would be difficult to tell if it is a net gain or not. They have been blowing themselves up faster than they can find willing idiots. When you resort to retarded women, you are having some doubts in your cult.

I think we are winning this war. Handily.

[Athena]

When you resort to retarded women, you are having some doubts in your cult.


Cual es este? No entiendo.

Thought-provoking wasn't the term I was looking for the other day. "Paranoia-inducing" is more accurate given the context. Not to say the former isn't true...

[CPL CHUD]

I think it depends on the situation. The reason Islamists want to attack us is because of their religious mandate to wage jihad until a global caliphate governed by sharia law. And, as you point out, we're a prime target. If you can damage a world power, it is alot more impressive than crushing Singapore. But of course in their case, we aren't the only target. In Europe (East and West), Asia, Africa, the Pacific, and Canada are having the same problem. The only place that seems to be safe so far is Latin America. And I'm sure that will change soon enough.
I think that pretty much sums it up. If I had a choice I'd say all of the above. No matter what we do it'll be too much or too little. It's hard to gauge.

[swivel]

Cual es este? No entiendo.

Thought-provoking wasn't the term I was looking for the other day. "Paranoia-inducing" is more accurate given the context. Not to say the former isn't true...

Haha! But, c'mon... when you are strapping TNT to autistic chicks, I think some of the "legion" of new volunteers are starting to wonder if the virgins are worth it.

[CPL CHUD]

Haha! But, c'mon... when you are strapping TNT to autistic chicks, I think some of the "legion" of new volunteers are starting to wonder if the virgins are worth it.

What does the retarded chick get?

[swivel]

What does the retarded chick get?

Her intestines blown out of her anus.

[CPL CHUD]

Her intestines blown out of her anus.
In comparison the guys have got it made. That's the last retard that signs up for that shit...oh wait...they're all retards.

[gprime]

"Were". Yes, they were. However, this bombing was in direct retaliation against the U.S. government merely recognising Kosovo independence. We are no longer at war. Are you suggesting that this embassy attack is some sort of WAY delayed response?

Who says the war is over? Recognition of Kosovo by foreign states does not end any war. If anything, it starts one. So I'm not suggesting it is a delayed response. Rather, I am suggesting that the US declared war, and this was an action taken by Serbian civilians within the war.

[TXChris]

That was my point. Our b.s. foreign interventionist policy over the last 60 years in the Middle East has helped terrorist organizations recruit more members and rake in more money to support their extreme causes. Who is to say that if we hadn't been so involved, doing the crap we did the past 60 years, that they would've had enough resources to attack us as they did? It doesn't matter where we are at right now, in relation to this "war." What matters is why they took the fight to us in the first place.

[swivel]

Are there any West-European nations who aren't recognizing Kosovo's independence?

[Athena]

Who says the war is over? Recognition of Kosovo by foreign states does not end any war. If anything, it starts one. So I'm not suggesting it is a delayed response. Rather, I am suggesting that the US declared war, and this was an action taken by Serbian civilians within the war.

Diplomatically recognising independence is an act of war? Maybe I missed something, but, at this point, we've made no promise to reinforce Kosovo militarily in the event that Serbia attempts to forcefully retain control over the region. I don't see how we've declared war.

[swivel]

Diplomatically recognising independence is an act of war? Maybe I missed something, but, at this point, we've made no promise to reinforce Kosovo militarily in the event that Serbia attempts to forcefully retain control over the region. I don't see how we've declared war.

Not only that, but we also recognize Serbia. We are granting Kosovo nothing that we haven't already granted to Serbia. So, they are hating us for doing for Kosovo what we also gladly do for them?

Again, dozens of countries have vocalized support for this move. They are attacking us because we, as the world superpower, have become the symbol of "power" which bomb-throwing loons gravitate towards when they want to tear something down.

They are not attacking us because of our foreign policy. They are attacking us because, when these idiots go looking for something to attack, they choose those in power. These are counter-culture freaks, no different than any other bomb-throwers. I've been watching lots of video and these kids are attacking their OWN POLICE FORCE. They are throwing rocks at their own cops. Dragging dumpsters out to block the vehicles of their own government.

Are they mad at the foreign policy of their own government, now, too? Of course not. They are young males who have a genetic urge to challenge the alpha male in order to climb a social ladder that doesn't even really exist anymore. What they do afterwards is justify this primal behavior with confused frontal lobes that lurch about for an understanding, never finding one.

[Athena]

Not only that, but we also recognize Serbia. We are granting Kosovo nothing that we haven't already granted to Serbia. So, they are hating us for doing for Kosovo what we also gladly do for them?

Again, dozens of countries have vocalized support for this move. They are attacking us because we, as the world superpower, have become the symbol of "power" which bomb-throwing loons gravitate towards when they want to tear something down.

They are not attacking us because of our foreign policy. They are attacking us because, when these idiots go looking for something to attack, they choose those in power. These are counter-culture freaks, no different than any other bomb-throwers. I've been watching lots of video and these kids are attacking their OWN POLICE FORCE. They are throwing rocks at their own cops. Dragging dumpsters out to block the vehicles of their own government.

Are they mad at the foreign policy of their own government, now, too? Of course not. They are young males who have a genetic urge to challenge the alpha male in order to climb a social ladder that doesn't even really exist anymore. What they do afterwards is justify this primal behavior with confused frontal lobes that lurch about for an understanding, never finding one.

Fuck, man...You and gprime are forcing me to walk a pretty tight line, here.

Okay - I agree with the first part because I don't feel as though merely recognising independence is an act of war that justifies an attack on our embassy. I'll even go so far as to buy that there is some hypocrisy there. Kinda sorta.

The rest of it causes me to sway the other way. They attack us because we did get involved once and, frankly, are the most likely to do it again. Not just because we're on top, although it certainly factors in, but because they remember when we, as the most powerful component of NATO, gave the UN a fatty middle finger and got involved back when shit was going down. In their eyes, this is our fault. Had Serbia been able to squash the conflict on their terms initially, Kosovo may have never grown balls this size.

If I was one of them, I'd be tossing rocks at the cops, too. After all, how dare they stand in the way of an attack on the country that fucked it all up for them. Have they no pride?

[gprime]

Are there any West-European nations who aren't recognizing Kosovo's independence?

Greece, Malta, Portugal, and Spain.

[gprime]

Diplomatically recognising independence is an act of war? Maybe I missed something, but, at this point, we've made no promise to reinforce Kosovo militarily in the event that Serbia attempts to forcefully retain control over the region. I don't see how we've declared war.

Because we disrespected their national sovereignty rights, and helped in the theft of land they own. In my book, that is an aggressive act of war. And frankly, this is one war the US ought to lose.

[swivel]

Greece, Malta, Portugal, and Spain.

Wow. A powerful coalition. Does this mean the other dozen countries in Europe agree with us?!

And 100 worldwide?!

Holy fuck.

[gprime]

Wow. A powerful coalition. Does this mean the other dozen countries in Europe agree with us?!

And 100 worldwide?!

Holy fuck.

You ask who wasn't, hence the answer. The above states are the Western European nations refusing to back Kosovo. Obviously outside of it there are a number of nations backing Serbia, including Russia and China. So this isn't as clearly lopsided as you want it to seem.

And, since when does majority will translate to morally acceptable or legitimate. If the majority of people voted to inject welfare babies with anthrax, it would be wrong. The situation here is no different.

[swivel]

You ask who wasn't, hence the answer. The above states are the Western European nations refusing to back Kosovo. Obviously outside of it there are a number of nations backing Serbia, including Russia and China. So this isn't as clearly lopsided as you want it to seem.

And, since when does majority will translate to morally acceptable or legitimate. If the majority of people voted to inject welfare babies with anthrax, it would be wrong. The situation here is no different.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm not saying we were correct, or that numbers belie that. My argument in this thread is that they are attacking our embassy because of who we are and who we represent in the global pecking-order. There are so many other countries that take the same stance, and have an embassy, but they attack ours.

For once, I'm actually arguing something germane to the thread title. Go figure.

[gprime]

Sorry, I should have been more clear. I'm not saying we were correct, or that numbers belie that. My argument in this thread is that they are attacking our embassy because of who we are and who we represent in the global pecking-order. There are so many other countries that take the same stance, and have an embassy, but they attack ours.

For once, I'm actually arguing something germane to the thread title. Go figure.

Okay, fair enough. But I think it is important to note that there is grounding for this. First, and most obvious are the two wars in the 1990's. We were the leading force behind those, helping to crush the Serbs and shrink their country in a major way. And, as per Kosovo, the US was the leading voice in the call for independence. Without American blessing, this could not have happened. Obviously that is a power thing, so you are right about that. But I'd say that power-dynamics aside, there was good reason for us. Certainly better than their was for the attempts on Turkish embassy (though the British and Croatian ones made perfect sense).