Kosovo

[gprime]

Just a few days ago on the 17th, Muslim terrorist Hashim Thaci (he engaged in genocide against the Serbians (http://news.serbianunity.net/2008/01/21/5654/)) and the Provisional Institutions of Self-Government Assembly of Kosovo declared independence in violation of the Serbian constitution. Since then, reception has been mixed. The west was the main backer, and those states not yet recognizing Kosovo soon will. Other nations including China, Cyprus, Greece, Malta, Moldova, Portugal, Romania, Russia, Slovakia, and Spain have said they do not plan to recognize the claim made by the Kosovors.

So, the question is, where do you stand on Kosovo?

Personally, I am strongly against its creation. My reasons are:

* It sets bad precident. To usurp territory from a country that has legitimately been within its borders since the state first formed is something we've not really seen since the onset of international order. This could establish a dangerous trend, whereby nations of means bully weaker states into shedding territory that belongs to them.

* It encourages independence movements worldwide. In Eastern Europe alone we've got Abkhazia, Carinthia, Kurdistan, Moravia, Nagorno-Karabakh, North Cyprus, Silesia, South Ossetia, Srpska, Transnistria, and Vojvodina. Western Europe has a number of similar hotspots such as Aland, Alsace, Andalusia, Aosta Valley, Aragon, Balearic Islands, Basqueland, Bavaria, Brittany, Catalonia, Cornwall, Corsica, Emila (sp?), Flanders, Friesland, Galacia, German Belgium, Ilinden–Pirin area, Lombardy, Northern Catalonia, Northern Ireland, Occitania, Savoy, Sardinia, Scania, Scotland, Slovenes, South Tyrol, Veneto, and Wallonia. And those were the examples that came to mind immediately! A quick search turned up a bunch more, from Azores in Portugal to Karelia in Russia.

* It creates a dangerous state in Eastern Europe. I know many people who've been there, and they say the Saudi influence in clear. Radical jihadist money has flowed in, creating mosques and midrassas to churn out a new generation of Muslim warriors to fight the West.

* It poses a security threat. To create the above state in a highly volitile region is just asking for another war. Whether it be a small local one or a major cold war between Western and Eastern/Russian sides remains to be seen. But John Bolton has already made the risks clear (http://www.javno.com/en/world/clanak.php?id=124499).

* The current leadership, as a KLA boss, is tied to Al-Queda (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1363436/posts), which now operates there (http://www.serbianna.com/columns/mb/035.shtml).

* The Albanian Muslims of Kosovo have a history of violence (http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/kosov2/) against Serbs and other Orthodox Christians. With this new autonomy, we can expect this to skyrocket. Now we'll see yet more genocide against the Serbians, as happened in the last war, when the US took the wrong side.

Some other sources to read (aside from the above links):

http://www.juliagorin.com/wordpress/?p=1393 (rest of her blog is good too)
http://www.savekosovo.org/
http://www.byzantinesacredart.com/blog/
http://serbianna.com/
http://www.srpska-mreza.com/ (out of date, but some good info)
http://www.slobodan-milosevic.org/
http://www.balkanpeace.org/
http://www.balkanalysis.com/

[swivel]

Thanks for the wonderful post.

I'm torn on this issue. I kinda want to see this play out to know what the effects are. If this works, it could set a good precedent for solutions to ethnic tensions in other areas. It might be that the only way to see peace in Iraq is the formation of multiple states.

The reason I'm torn is because I hate borders. If we can have freedom of movement and trade, I think war will go away. I also don't think we need extra tension with Russia right now. Things aren't looking so hot in ol' Russia.

In a weird way, I think this might be a good short-term solution as we work towards a better long-term solution. You know how Marx argued that Capitalism was a necessary phase we needed to move through on our way to Communism? Maybe some of these countries need to shrink before they can develop the societal advances that allow them to expand. I'm thinking of how Germany needed to fracture before Bismark could unite it. Or the same thing with Italy. And the United States. I think the European Union could only come about AFTER Europe went through an intense Nationalistic phase.

Marx was, of course, wrong regarding his economic theory. But maybe he was right in thinking that there was an intermediate phase necessary for the transition. When you look at a complex arch, it is hard to reason how it was formed. But that is only because the scaffolding has been long removed.

[Athena]

While I am of Croatian descent with good friends that were driven out of the area by Serbia's bid for power after Yugoslavia collapsed, I side strongly with the Serbians on the issue of Kosovo. Joseph Tito made a grave mistake in granting Kosovo the autonomy he did. Serbia is simply struggling to maintain what is rightfully theirs. I do not agree with some of their tactics, but, yes...As it pertains to Kosovo specifically, NATO allies did indeed side with the wrong people, in my opinion.

An impressive post, gprime.

[gprime]

Thanks for the wonderful post.

I'm torn on this issue. I kinda want to see this play out to know what the effects are. If this works, it could set a good precedent for solutions to ethnic tensions in other areas. It might be that the only way to see peace in Iraq is the formation of multiple states.

The reason I'm torn is because I hate borders. If we can have freedom of movement and trade, I think war will go away. I also don't think we need extra tension with Russia right now. Things aren't looking so hot in ol' Russia.

In a weird way, I think this might be a good short-term solution as we work towards a better long-term solution. You know how Marx argued that Capitalism was a necessary phase we needed to move through on our way to Communism? Maybe some of these countries need to shrink before they can develop the societal advances that allow them to expand. I'm thinking of how Germany needed to fracture before Bismark could unite it. Or the same thing with Italy. And the United States. I think the European Union could only come about AFTER Europe went through an intense Nationalistic phase.

Marx was, of course, wrong regarding his economic theory. But maybe he was right in thinking that there was an intermediate phase necessary for the transition. When you look at a complex arch, it is hard to reason how it was formed. But that is only because the scaffolding has been long removed.


I think it is important to note that there is no such thing as a "one size fits all" solution. So, while I oppose an independent Kosovo, it is a consequence of the details. There are other independence movements, such as those in Taiwan and Eastern Bolivia are much more reasonable. Even in the cases where separation makes sense, it isn't always a realistic option. For example, much as I dislike the Tamil Tigers (if nothing else, they're Marxists), I could see a solid case being made for the Republic of Tamil Nadu. Realistically, that cannot happen, as the Sinhalese will never accept it, and the notion of a stabalizing Akhand Barat is not in play.

While I support open borders, as you well know, I also realize that it isn't an option in certain regions of the world, at least not for another several generations. Religious and ethnic tension, combined with history, will continue to fan the flames of hate, making clear borders necessary. The issue really is where we set up those borders.

As for your theory, I'm not sure I agree. But I think you could very well be right, and only time will tell. Frankly, I hope you are, since the Serbians always get the short end of the stick. They're the ones who get slaughtered while backing individual rights and ethnic equality. The fact is, a stable Yugoslavia/Greater Serbian would be ideal in Eastern Europe. They just need to overcome socialism first.

[swivel]

As for your theory, I'm not sure I agree. But I think you could very well be right, and only time will tell. Frankly, I hope you are, since the Serbians always get the short end of the stick. They're the ones who get slaughtered while backing individual rights and ethnic equality. The fact is, a stable Yugoslavia/Greater Serbian would be ideal in Eastern Europe. They just need to overcome socialism first.

Amen, brother. The Serbs were the kid that got in trouble for "hitting back".


Also, there is a bit of complexity to my desire for no borders. While I hope for a day with meaningless borders, I do not think that means we will mix with one another. I think it is natural for people to clump with other people just like themselves. I think segregation, as long as it is chosen freely by all parties, and there is never any legal impediment preventing a hypothetical integration, is vastly superior to a system of forced mixing.

People are natural narcissists. They want to be around more "thems". I understand that, and support that, but would like the freedom to do otherwise present.

[Athena]

Maybe it's my bias as a Croatian speaking, but let's not paint the Serbs as the victim, entirely. In the area, at the time, they were the force to be dealt with. They employed some very questionable tactics, including removing ethnic Albanians from their homes in Kosovo to make room for Serbian refugees from Bosnia and Croatia...Refugees that were welcome in those lands before Serbs employed atrocity like ethnic cleansing. They suspended free press in these provinces. The Serbs displayed blatant disregard for individual liberty, much less life itself, when it decided to fight for what they considered theirs.

That being said, I view us as even. We've (Croatia and Serbia) both engaged in genocide. All's fair in love and war, right? Serbians are guilty of the war crimes they are charged with...but perhaps that's our mistake for attempting to catagorize acts of war to begin with.

[swivel]

I agree Athena. I certainly don't excuse the actions of one side. I just think it is weird how two countries treat each other poorly, and one gets all the blame. They are both at fault, and neither at fault, if you know what I mean. It is just sad and unfortunate and needs to end.

[gprime]

Certainly the hands of the Serbs have blood on them. But the extent of it is grossly overestimated, the context is ignored, and their enemies are never held to the same standard. Historically (http://byzantinesacredart.com/blog/2006/12/jasenovac-whitewashing.html), the Croatians have been of the violent persuasion. And they don't seem very sorry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rghIuneiKFA) about it either. The wars of the 90's were started by them (well okay, I suppose the Slovenians are primarily at fault).

My point in saying this is I don't feel that both sides were equally at fault. Obviously the Serbians weren't exactly like the Kuwaitis, but I think that they are decidedly less at fault. And certainly, regardless of the outcome, anybody who sided with the Union in the Civil War would have to side with the Serbs there with respect to the legitimacy of the union claims.

[Athena]

Well, I certainly won't be the one to argue that the Croats are the lesser of two evils. Hell, my grandfather immigrated into America because he was so pissed with his people circa the World Wars. He completely cut us off from our heritage, failing to teach his children the language or let us have any contact with family in the old country.

[I am Legend]

both sides of this are fucked in the head, and anyone who paints the serbs as good guys are on drugs. how do i know?? i served in Kosovo. from the onset, part of the first feet on ground damn near. i have first-hand seen the damage caused by the sebs there. once the troops (nato) were there, the albanians thought we were there to let them get payback. personally, i could give a fuck what happens there, but i will say this:

the men are some of the ugliest you will ever see, but holy fuck there are some hot women over there.

[gprime]

BELGRADE, Serbia-Serbian President Boris Tadic said Saturday he will call early elections after the prime minister announced the collapse of the government.
Tadic said in a statement that the elections are a "democratic way to overcome the political crisis."
Earlier, conservative Prime Minister Vojislav Kostunica said his government could no longer function together with Tadic's Democrats because they have been insisting on the country's EU membership despite Kosovo's recognition by some of the bloc's member states.
The full story (http://www.serbianna.com/news/2008/01644.shtml).