Things that have shaped your views of humanity,death penalty, etc

[ells9824]

I worked with kids a long time over many years and saw many personalities and many types of kids. You could almost call this profiling. Like I previously stated, it was THIS case that brought me to a "shades of gray" opinion on the death penalty. These kids were the first steps to that.

My absolute favorite kid was 2nd oldest of 5, and she was 4 years old. They left the center to move and we never saw or heard from them again. About a year later a reporter called, because that little girl was dead at age 5 by mamma's boyfriend's hand. Of course he raped her and beat the shit out of her first before he killed her.

That girl was so sweet, and I hated making her do anything she didn't want because all she ever wanted to do was play with the "ugly" donated toys that weren't good enough for anyone else.She just wanted to play because she had nothing at home,through no fault of her own. Someone who couldn't afford her gave birth to her,and the kid suffered in one way or another most of her short life for it.

Another kid that I only briefly had contact with when I did my student teaching, was the epitome of jerk. Any bully movie you see -he was the prototype. He would purposely bait other kids into things and stand back and watch the hammer fall on them. He was usually the cause,but never on the trouble end. He stayed just far enough back. He is in prison now, after convincing a friend that they could get away with dropping an old lady off a bridge because they were too young for the death penalty. He originally did get the DP,but it was overturned in a very high profile case. The police testified that he boasted they wouldn't get the DP-but oh well. The law is the law.

The third kid, I know quite well. She is basically an undiagnosed narcissist and sociopath. She will manipulate any situation or person to twist things to her liking. Spending time with her is like being in King Arther's court, because it is her preaching. No one dare cross her or you don't see or hear from her for months. Tough love-pshaw. Doesn't work on someone who just doesn't care.

Now... I've dealt with kids that are all manner of in between these ones, but these are the ones that either inspired love,hate,or fear in me, sometimes all three.

I stated what I did in the other thread almost like- had I known Joshua Nelson before his worst crime, I would've tried to be there as I had for Brianna, and I could've predicted some slimy bastard would do things no kid should know about,and that he would be dead or locked up early, because it just seems like that is what happens with kids that have it rough and aren't equipped with the mentality to go with it -if that makes sense.

It pissed me off that he will be giving his life, when someone who's worst problem was not being allowed to use the car decided to change plans. If they both got the DP, like they originally had, I probably would not know anything about this and would not have done any of the research I did on either of them. It would've been another crime that caught no attention.

Opinion is all it is,shaped by my experiences. Other will have had other experiences that shaped them. Since I know Mr L and Swivel are men, just chalk it up to me being a GIRL if you want.

[swivel]

Wow. Those experiences must have been tough for you. Probably still are.

What is your position on abortion? And was it modified by these experiences?

I'll definitely want to add to this thread later, but it is going to take a lot of writing, so I'll have to put something together in my off-time. Thanks for the thread, and for sharing.

[ells9824]

What is your position on abortion? And was it modified by these experiences?

That depends on which way the wind is blowing. Its not for me, and hopefully none of my children when they get to that point. I understand that just because I don't agree with it, doesn't mean it will ever be illegal, even if it were, like most illegal things people find a way to do them. Better to be done safely, I guess,if you are going to do it at all.

I think I'm more bothered by the use of fetus collagen than I am about the actual procedure that brings it to us.

I am still not 100% sure I believe that the g-spot surgeries and other collagen enhancements use it, but everything I've read says its true. I emailed a cosmetic surgery place as well, and they wrote back and said they have to use human collagen because a lot of humans reject cow collagen when its used in cosmetic procedures.

Kidney,heart maybe... but not unborn baby tissue because I want plumper lips,bigger boobs or longer orgasms.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Yeah, the baby tissue thing in enhancement surgery is pretty fuckin' sick, ells.

So back to your story: Pretty powerful stuff. Especially the girl...that was tough.

So are you saying these things shaped opinions FOR or AGAINST the DP? Because in some instances, obviously, I dont think the DP should be handed out. I completely understand that there are gray areas. I'm not saying it should be handed out like cards to criminals. I'm saying to not have the penalty of death for certain crimes seems absurd to me. Absolutely absurd.

But anyway, thanks for sharing, and thanks for taking the time.

[ells9824]

Like I said...knowing kids in person that have had abuse in every form heaped upon them and others that were given the world,it makes me sad when one who didn't understand his world get sucked into something by someone who did.

I think DP and really all criminal cases should be handled on a case by case basis,and mitigators should be looked at closely. I also think that crimes committed together should be tried together for a reason-so juries can see the suspects interacting with each other.

For instance: 2 thugs who know their way around the streets rob a liquor store. One gets killed by the owner. Slap the 2nd with a murder charge and slap the liquor store owner with a key to the city.

In the case of Joshua Nelson, through research and talking with someone from an anti-death penalty group who actually went and met with him, I just see another kid in a world who never understood his place, unless it was to have something done to him that was not natural for someone his age. He didn't do well in school,there was no love at all in the many homes he lived in. People kept changing the rules on him. When he learned them, he was shipped somewhere else, another aunt or uncle, another foster home, back to his mom and yet another step-dad.

That last day, he did what he knew how to get away-and that was steal a car. I am not saying that is okay at all. But Keith Brennan changed the rules that day and killed Tommy, and now Joshua is going to die one of these days while another person who veered from the original course is not.

Its all about the mitigators, which I think is what my original post way back when actually said.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Like I said...knowing kids in person that have had abuse in every form heaped upon them and others that were given the world,it makes me sad when one who didn't understand his world get sucked into something by someone who did.

I think DP and really all criminal cases should be handled on a case by case basis,and mitigators should be looked at closely. I also think that crimes committed together should be tried together for a reason-so juries can see the suspects interacting with each other.

For instance: 2 thugs who know their way around the streets rob a liquor store. One gets killed by the owner. Slap the 2nd with a murder charge and slap the liquor store owner with a key to the city.

In the case of Joshua Nelson, through research and talking with someone from an anti-death penalty group who actually went and met with him, I just see another kid in a world who never understood his place, unless it was to have something done to him that was not natural for someone his age. He didn't do well in school,there was no love at all in the many homes he lived in. People kept changing the rules on him. When he learned them, he was shipped somewhere else, another aunt or uncle, another foster home, back to his mom and yet another step-dad.

That last day, he did what he knew how to get away-and that was steal a car. I am not saying that is okay at all. But Keith Brennan changed the rules that day and killed Tommy, and now Joshua is going to die one of these days while another person who veered from the original course is not.

Its all about the mitigators, which I think is what my original post way back when actually said.


Definitely. Thanks for all that.

[impqueen]

Wow, Ells.. deep thread.

Um.. a few things that have shaped my views:

- I was a nurse for twelve years. I spent a few years practicing in pediatric hospice for abused foster children with brain injuries. The stories we post here? I've seen the repercussions of those slams, kicks, curbstomps, shakings. I went through the deaths of several children years after the event that left the child on a vent or in a vegetative state. No amount of sorry can bring those babies back.

(edit for length and TMI. heh.)

Am i for or against the death penalty? I don't know. Usually against, but there are some cases that just really need it.

[ells9824]

It's kids in any way,shape or form for me. I've had 2 friends raped and murdered by strangers during the same crime. I also knew someone who killed a friend of my sisters. He received death and has already been put to death. Nothing effected me quite like the babies.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Yep. I understand the debates about economics, but in the end, some people just deserve to fucking die.

[Athena]

On a moral basis, I am pro-death penalty. In reality, however, I don't believe capital punishment should be allowed to continue as it has.

The things that have shaped my opinion on the matter:

1.) My time spent interning for a public defense attorney in Palo Alto, CA. During this time, I was witness to scum who were handed weak sentences and innocent people who were put through the ringer by the system. I saw the subjective nature of the justice system first hand. I was shocked and disgusted by the fact that judgments can be decided over lunch, depending on who owed who a favor. The disadvantages of being issued a public defense attorney are real - the one I worked for had graduated Phi Beta Kappa, Stanford Law. He is a brilliant man who could have used his degree to more lucrative means, but felt he was doing "God's work" by providing solid counsel to those who didn't stand a chance otherwise.

This is the reality in the justice system. Poor more likely to be convicted than rich; black more than white; male more than female. While we may be equal in the eyes of the law, we certainly aren't equal to those charged with executing said law. It has been made clear that this inaccuracy is carried into capital punishment, as well.

2.) In 2000, Gov. Ryan (R) of Illinois placed a moratorium on all execution. (http://archives.cnn.com/2000/US/01/31/illinois.executions.02/) Why? Because, since the reinstatement of capital punishment in Illinois in 1977, more death row inmates had been exonerated than had been executed - 12 had been put to death while 13 had been freed thanks to DNA or other overturning evidence. Gov. Ryan that this was indicative of a broken system in desperate need to analysis and repair, and I happen to agree. In a country where DNA evidence is not mandatory, inaccuracy will be rampant.

3.) If the inaccuracy wasn't enough, there's the cost of capital cases. From Deathpenaltyinfo.org (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?did=108&scid=7):


Report to Washington State Bar Association regarding costs


At the trial level, death penalty cases are estimated to generate roughly $470,000 inadditional costs to the prosecution and defense over the cost of trying the same case as an aggravated murder without the death penalty and costs of $47,000 to $70,000 for court personnel.

On direct appeal, the cost of appellate defense averages $100,000 more in death penalty cases, than in non-death penalty murder cases.

Personal restraint petitions filed in death penalty cases on average cost an additional$137,000 in public defense costs.


Study Finds Death penalty Costly, Ineffective


Death penalty trials cost an average of 48% more than the average cost of trials in which prosecutors seek life imprisonment.

Tennessee District Attorneys General are not consistent in their pursuit of the death penalty.

Surveys and interviews of district attorneys indicate that some prosecutors "use the death penalty as a 'bargaining chip' to secure plea bargains for lesser sentences."
Previous research provides no clear indication whether the death penalty acts as a method of crime prevention.

The Tennessee Court of Criminal Appeals reversed 29 percent of capital cases on direct appeal.

Although any traumatic trial may cause stress and pain for jurors, the victims' family, and the defendant's family, the pressure may be at its peak during death penalty trials. (July 2004)


So, as you can see, while I am not morally opposed to capital punishment, the system is fundamentally flawed.

[swivel]

So, as you can see, while I am not morally opposed to capital punishment, the system is fundamentally flawed.

You know... I don't know of anybody who thinks the system works right now. Nobody. Even the people who are pro-Capital Punishment think the system is more wrong than right.

You would think we would suspend the practice until we sorted this out, wouldn't you? Isn't it amazing how a social institution can gain enough momentum that it keeps going with nobody pushing it forward?

[Athena]

You know... I don't know of anybody who thinks the system works right now. Nobody. Even the people who are pro-Capital Punishment think the system is more wrong than right.

You would think we would suspend the practice until we sorted this out, wouldn't you? Isn't it amazing how a social institution can gain enough momentum that it keeps going with nobody pushing it forward?

It's the inertia that is created by bureaucracy. Still, while I don't know anyone who thinks the system is flawless, I know plenty of people who would rather see it continue, flawed as it may be, rather than halt it entirely for repair. People are complacent creatures who commonly and easily grow comfortable with failure.

Worse yet, the anti-death penalty crowd can arm themselves with all the evidence they can muster, but it's too late for them. They've been associated with the likes of PETA or the anti-war movement. The loudest voices are the most fanatical and they do a great amount of damage to their cause. Outsiders with intellectual integrity, men like Governor Ryan, are the system's only hope, and they seem too few and far between.

That being said...I'll bite. What's this about? :p

[swivel]

Worse yet, the anti-death penalty crowd can arm themselves with all the evidence they can muster, but it's too late for them. They've been associated with the likes of PETA or the anti-war movement. The loudest voices are the most fanatical and they do a great amount of damage to their cause. Outsiders with intellectual integrity, men like Governor Ryan, are the system's only hope, and they seem too few and far between.

That being said...I'll bite. What's this about? :p

Agree. The Republican party does the same as the religious kooks seem to be in charge. Which means they ignore massive spending, and the growth of government, as long as we get judges who frown on abortion. It drives me crazy. When they say McCain isn't "Conservative" enough, they really mean he isn't "Religious" enough. His speech last night had me on the verge of tears, and he didn't mention God once. I loved that.

Oh, and this wasn't about anything. Just wondering why we have a flawed system that doesn't have a large, vocal group of supporters.

[WryBread]

I think the death penalty is a deterrent. The problem is that the people who are deterred by it are not going to speak up and tell anyone so. But I see that easily understood significant penalties are deterrents in other areas of life, so assume it's the same with the impulse to kill people.

As far as the argument that the death penalty is more often carried out on defenders who are not white, my answer is execute more white murderers. It's fine with me.

I believe abortion should be legal and at the same time hope people think carefully before having one. It's not like having a tooth pulled. But in my book, it's not murder either.

[Athena]

Agree. The Republican party does the same as the religious kooks seem to be in charge. Which means they ignore massive spending, and the growth of government, as long as we get judges who frown on abortion. It drives me crazy. When they say McCain isn't "Conservative" enough, they really mean he isn't "Religious" enough. His speech last night had me on the verge of tears, and he didn't mention God once. I loved that.

Oh, and this wasn't about anything. Just wondering why we have a flawed system that doesn't have a large, vocal group of supporters.

You know, I was a big McCain fan before I was a Ron Paul fan. For a long time, too. Of course, at that time, I was also anti-withdrawal. This wasn't all that long ago, really. I suppose, come election time, he'll probably get my vote. *Sigh*...It's just so hard to let go of the dream that is Ron Paul.

This is exactly why I've become so hyper-sensitive when it comes to morality and politics. People are so emotionally tied to moral issues, they're willing to throw the baby out with the bath water. I can't tell you how many of my ultra-liberal friends asked me with disgust, "How can you support a pro-life candidate?!?" Well, it's easy, for me. I look at the whole picture. It seems so damn difficult for so many, though.

lol, you've got me anticipating the set up. That's hilarious. Well, while I might accuse you of plenty of things, I'll never accuse you of not provoking thought. :o