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Athena
February 19th, 2008, 01:29 PM
It is my opinion that the government has no business regulating a religious ceremony. Yes, I understand that the government has an interest in promoting marriage for various reasons. But, ultimately, I view the arrangement between government and marriage to be fundamental disregard for the separation of church and state that we should enjoy here in America. Articles like these cement my belief. My question: If the government has an interest in promoting marriage that justifies tax incentives and other somewhat discriminatory measures, why would they make a ruling that invalidates thousands of marriages, simply because of the minister involved?

ACLU Sues To Protect Marriages Threatened By Recent Court Decision (2/14/2008)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: media@aclu.org; (212) 549-2666

PHILADELPHIA – The American Civil Liberties Union of Pennsylvania filed the first three lawsuits today in a planned statewide challenge of a recent judicial declaration stating that marriages are invalid if presided over by a minister who does not regularly serve a church or preach in a physical house of worship. The ruling potentially endangers thousands of marriages in Pennsylvania.

“What we want is to fix a problem that never should have existed in the first place,” said Mary Catherine Roper, staff attorney with the ACLU of Pennsylvania. “The state has no business invalidating marriages just because it doesn’t like the kind of minister who officiated them.”

The lawsuits were filed on behalf of three couples who were married in Pennsylvania by clergy who do not regularly preach in a church or to an established congregation. The couples seek judicial declarations that their marriages are valid under Pennsylvania law.

ACLU plaintiffs Ryan and Melanie Hancock were married in 2005 by a friend who is an ordained minister in the Universal Life Church. They chose that officiant, in part, because the couple grew up in different religious traditions and did not want to favor one tradition over the other. A copy of their lawsuit can be found online at: http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/Hancockfinalcomplaint.doc

“Our marriage was perfectly legal at the time it was entered into,” Ryan Hancock said. “My wife and I continue to be happily married to this day. For a judge to retroactively decide, nearly three years later, that our marriage is no longer valid seems unfair and is hurtful for both of us.”

The issue arose in September 2007 when York County Judge Maria Musti Cook ruled that the marriage of Dorie Heyer and Jacob Hollerbush was invalid because it had been performed by a minister of the Universal Life Church who obtained his ordination over the Internet. In Heyer v. Hollerbush, the court held that the marriage never existed because the minister who solemnized it did not serve a congregation or preach in a physical house of worship.

Since that decision, registers of wills in counties throughout the commonwealth have been telling prospective couples and couples already married that marriages performed by ministers who do not serve a congregation or place of worship are not valid. Bucks County Register of Wills Barbara Reilly has even urged couples to get remarried if their officiant did not regularly serve a congregation.

"It's surprising to see public officials reading the Marriage Act in a way that calls into question the marriages of thousands of husbands and wives throughout the commonwealth,” said Wilson Brown, of Drinker Biddle & Reath LLP, lead counsel for the couples and cooperating counsel with the ACLU. “We hope these cases will get this straightened out. The commonwealth really should be upholding these people's vows to one another."

ACLU plaintiffs Peter Goldberger and Anna Durbin were married in 1976 in Philadelphia by a Roman Catholic priest, a Jesuit who was then clerking for a judge of the United States District Court. Goldberger and Durbin wanted to have a Catholic wedding in accordance with the wishes of Durbin’s family, but chose to marry in Philadelphia for the convenience of many east coast friends and relatives, instead of in her home parish in the state of Washington. They are both lawyers who reside in Ardmore and have raised three children together. A copy of their lawsuit can be found online at: http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/GoldbergerDurbincomplaint.doc

“It is personally upsetting to us and to our families to be told after more than 30 years that we may not be legally married and that our children are not the product of a valid marriage,” Durbin said. “We can’t see what valid interest the State has in limiting which priests, ministers, imams or rabbis can officiate at weddings,” Goldberger added.

The third set of ACLU plaintiffs, Jason and Jennifer O’Neill, were married in 2005 in Bucks County by Jason’s uncle, who is a Universal Life minister. They chose Jason’s uncle because they wished to have a religious ceremony, but did not want to choose between the different religious traditions of their families. They found the principles of the Universal Life Church reflected their personal beliefs. A copy of their lawsuit can be found online at:
http://www.aclupa.org/downloads/ONeillfinalcomplaint.doc

swivel
February 19th, 2008, 01:51 PM
100% agree. I think marriage should be done away with completely. It should be seen as a wholly-parochial tradition, like a bar mitzvahs, or a baptism.

If the government is going to have anything to do with relationships, it should be like their view of "dependents". You should be able to file taxes together, to pool your resources, to own joint property, and so on. These should be seen as domestic partnerships in the most business sense of "partnership". For instance, two kids of the same sex should be able for form a partnership with each other while in college. Sharing a dorm or apartment and generally making the financial situation of each greater than the sum of its parts.

What two people, in love with each other, do to commit is up to them. If you want a private ceremony with family and friends, go for it. If you want a religious ceremony, have at it. But the government should not be able to say, "You have to live apart for a year before we allow you to divorce your joint holdings". That is bullshit.


And I am sick of hearing about the "sanctity" of marriage. With half of them failing, and 70%+ of men cheating on their wives, and 50%+ of women, I'm not buying that crap anymore. Marriage, as an institution, fails to impress me with its sanctity.

gprime
February 19th, 2008, 05:11 PM
Well said both of you. I wouldn't restrict marriage to religious institutions, but I also wouldn't involve government. It seems to me that a legal agreement, constructed and enforced in the same way any sort of contract would otherwise be, would do just fine. That way, people who rightfully have no respect for religious institutions but still have a desire to cave to the abnormal reality that is marriage could do so.

And it would remove the morality element. There would be no question about homosexual rights, polygamy, or any other controversial practice. The only major roadblock are anti-prostitution laws, which ought to be repealed anyway. Once that is solved, people can freely draft and sign such agreements, spelling out terms for extrication, asset division, and even length of duration if they are so inclined.

Government wants marriage as a means to ensure the nuclear family pays taxes to fund their bloated asses. But the truth is, as attitudes have liberalized, marriage has lost its meaning. The failure rate is astonishing. And the legal problems that come with its end are even worse. Continuing on as though nothing is wrong is not a reasonable or just solution.

swivel
February 19th, 2008, 05:41 PM
The only major roadblock are anti-prostitution laws, which ought to be repealed anyway. Once that is solved, people can freely draft and sign such agreements, spelling out terms for extrication, asset division, and even length of duration if they are so inclined.

Shit. I never thought about that. You certainly would have to get rid of those laws before you let us officially pay our "spouses" for sex. Damn.

I never liked the argument that you don't sign contracts if you "love" your spouse. Bullshit. That contract PROVES that the marriage is all about love, and not money. If you don't sign a pre-nup you are not proving your love, you are casting it in doubt.

Athena
February 19th, 2008, 06:03 PM
I never liked the argument that you don't sign contracts if you "love" your spouse. Bullshit. That contract PROVES that the marriage is all about love, and not money. If you don't sign a pre-nup you are not proving your love, you are casting it in doubt.

Couldn't agree with you more. My dad got married not too long ago to a woman who had three prior marriages. Although there was no evidence of "golddigging", the family thought it best that they consider a pre-nup. So, the G-Unit dropped off a pamphlet to my dad from her lawyer. The man had never been so insulted. My father is a brilliant man, but he was looking at this issue ass-backwards.

swivel
February 19th, 2008, 07:27 PM
Couldn't agree with you more. My dad got married not too long ago to a woman who had three prior marriages. Although there was no evidence of "golddigging", the family thought it best that they consider a pre-nup. So, the G-Unit dropped off a pamphlet to my dad from her lawyer. The man had never been so insulted. My father is a brilliant man, but he was looking at this issue ass-backwards.

Agree. The argument should be, "If you love me, you will sign this". Not the other way around.

When I proposed to my wife, I presented her with a hand-me-down ring and asked her to promise me that she would never marry me, but would she stay with me for as long as we make each other happy. She said, "I promise".

Then, I just started calling her my wife. It is the only word that describes our relationship.

Athena
February 19th, 2008, 07:33 PM
Agree. The argument should be, "If you love me, you will sign this". Not the other way around.

When I proposed to my wife, I presented her with a hand-me-down ring and asked her to promise me that she would never marry me, but would she stay with me for as long as we make each other happy. She said, "I promise".

Then, I just started calling her my wife. It is the only word that describes our relationship.

Weird, but in an awesome way. I must say, though, it is nice to know that someone is with you because they want to be and not because they are legally bound.

swivel
February 19th, 2008, 07:37 PM
Weird, but in an awesome way. I must say, though, it is nice to know that someone is with you because they want to be and not because they are legally bound.

The cage door is welded the fuck open, in our case!

I try to remember to ask the bitch, at least twice a day, "You want me to leave?"

Gotta keep it out there, ya know?