Is execution moral?

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Certainly, men who rape children, women who rape children, should die, and theres no question it's morally justified.

But what about some of the others? What about human beings that just exist to do stupid things, to punish the world with their stupidity? I'm being serious here. I know in the past, and still in the present, there are those who believe retarded children should be put to death upon birth. I don't support that, but hell, many women today have abortions when they find out that their child may be saddled with autism, or some other form of mental retardation...that's execution...so why not just...execute men like this?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/02/15/BATLV38B8.DTL


THink of the harm he caused, and worse, COULD'VE caused? He's absolutely mad...27 THOUSAND TIMES?

In a perfect world, this man would simply be taken out into an ally, and shot in the neck. I mean, Jesus, these fuckers pollute the world. And should rightly die, IMO. ANd I'm not upset by this, dont get my wrong. Just...confounded....perplexed....as to why these people exist the way they do. I'm not being silly here. I believe people like this should die, because it serves the betterment of humanity.

[taintfutcha]

aye-i won't bandy morality but i will agree with public executions for many a threat to society. life sentences? fuck that. insane? so what-doesnt change the risk factor.
sterilization and castration are on my list as well (to do list). barbaric you say? weed out the dead wood i say. 3 strikes? 1 strike. i think the pussification of justice is piss poor. no-im not being flip.

[KillBill20]

I like the guys answer as to why he did it "because its free"

What a dumb-shit, I wouldn't be apposed to anyone shooting him.

~Kyle

[Harley_Tech]

How about taking a sampling of lets say 1000 of his calls to find the average time of call. The figure the salary of the people answering the calls, plus any equipment response costs and divide it out to get a per minute rate for his "free calls". Then figure the cost of investigation to find his dumb ass, and send him the bill...uuuhhhh, no...it cost YOU this much to make all those calls.

That should get his attention.

That or have someone kick him in the balls 27K times....cuz its free....

R

[swivel]

This is an issue I've changed my mind on in the past 5 years or so, and could easily see changing it back.

Right now, I feel like our execution system is so flawed, that we should stop doing it. I've read before that it is actually more expensive than keeping them in jail for life, because the process takes up so much court time, and the infrastructure is not cheap for the number of people they use it for.

I just hate the idea of rapists and murderers watching cable on my dollar, so I think we should change how certain people spend their time in prison. I think the "lifers" should be put on display in the prisons. Keep them in plexiglass cells in the middle of the commons. Feed and supply them from a trapdoor in the floor. Let them have some books and a nice bed, and that is it. Let them go craz(ier) if they want, and let the rest of the criminals see what they will be doing if they get out and keep fucking up their lives.

We pretend that the death penalty serves as a deterrent, but we hide the process from those that we mean to fear. I think right now the system is just for vengeance, which is troubling.

[gprime]

I essentially agree with Swivel here. In theory, I see nothing wrong with the death penalty. But as it is currently executed (pun intended), the problems far outweigh the positives. The first, and in my mind biggest factor, is the cost. Simply put, security is the primary legitimate function of government. And that includes domestic protection. The more it costs, the more government takes from the people through taxation. Since I want as little of that as possible, the choice is clear based on that alone.

The second problem is that our method of execution is so mild. Between a quick and likely painless (under review) execution or decades in prison, which sound worse? Unless we use a barbaric method, like weeks of torture followed by crucifixion, then death is the easy way out. It becomes to mild a penalty.

Finally, there is the chance for error. Unless we impose exceptionally rigorous standards, such as DNA evidence plus at least two other forms of non-circumstantial evidence, then the risk is too high. You can free somebody who has been wrongfully jailed, but you cannot revive the dead.

And, as Swivel said, if we are to keep them in jail, major penal system reforms are needed. They are there for punishment, nothing else. We need to end all financial support for prisoner education, prison libraries, recreational facilities, cable television, and anything else non-essential. We need to house and feed them. Beyond that, most other expenditures are wasteful, and thus an unfair imposition on the tax payers.

[swivel]

And, as Swivel said, if we are to keep them in jail, major penal system reforms are needed. They are there for punishment, nothing else. We need to end all financial support for prisoner education, prison libraries, recreational facilities, cable television, and anything else non-essential. We need to house and feed them. Beyond that, most other expenditures are wasteful, and thus an unfair imposition on the tax payers.

My idea is to rely on private donations and charities for prison luxuries. If someone wants to raise the funds to provide a basketball court for a prison, have at it. But not my money.

I wonder what the ratio is of basketball courts in prisons that I've paid for vs. basketball courts in American communities that I've paid for. Nah, fuck that, I probably don't want to know.

[taintfutcha]

to the death means removing them from society as much if not more than "punishment". there's no punishment that can replace a life. in my opinion there's no rehabilitating a child molester, no punishment suitable.

prison is for cases that can not be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt and non violent crimes.

[swivel]

to the death means removing them from society as much if not more than "punishment". there's no punishment that can replace a life. in my opinion there's no rehabilitating a child molester, no punishment suitable.

prison is for cases that can not be proved beyond a shadow of a doubt and non violent crimes.

Agree. Now, if it is more expensive to "remove them from society" via death, than it is to keep them in prison for life... why would we choose the more expensive, and the morally questionable route?

I'm not sure I see the advantages. Especially when we are just talking about 40-50 people a year.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Good points all around, actually. My only gripe with the death penalty is the cost and methods. Honestly, Im for death penalty reform, but it'll never happen the way I would like it to. Truthfully, we will never be too barbaric, but I really think firing squads are the easiest and cheapest way. Also, I think that once someone is sentenced to death, they should be killed immediately. It should be tougher to grant the penalty of death, because it should be an unappealable sentence.

Emotion? Check this link, which poorly describes what happened. If you check around, you will read about how the older brother, I think it was, walked out with blood squirting out of his head, and was trying to tell the kids to run. But they were too scared.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_E._Duncan_III

Or one could google Jessica Lunsford, another popular case, where it was heard that she cried when her captor wrapped her in two plastic trash bags, gave her her teddy bear, apologized to her, and buried her alive. They found plastic from the trash bag in her finger nails from where she tried to claw her way out. All after she was drugged and raped while her father, next door, looked for her.

I guess here's what Im saying. I've been to prison, and it sucks, no doubt. But it's not TERRIBLE. You get food, there are games being played, you have libraries, guards who will bullshit with you, friends, and basically, a way of life is established. There isnt freedom, dont get me wrong, and its an oppressive way of life. But it's life, and believe it or not, there are people in there who dont WANT to live outside, because they have it good there.

People like Duncan, and Lunsford's killer, deserve to die, simple. And they dont deserve to be able to live in prison, and ever get comfortable, to play card games, monopoly, to laugh with friends, to brag about what they did, to sleep and wake up and eat a decent breakfast. Furthermore....victims like Lunsford's father, and Shasta herself, deserve whatever....whatEVER solace they can get. They need to know that these men are dead, and gone from the Earth. They need some sort of comfort. It goes so much deeper than revenge, IMO, but I dont see anything wrong with revenge either.

I know the death penalty is far, FAR from perfect....but by all means, Im absolutely, positively for it.

A little more about this:

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/07/02/idaho.children/

A few excerpts:

In his 1980 conviction in Washington, Duncan pleaded guilty to abducting and raping a 14-year-old boy at gunpoint, burning the victim with a cigarette and firing the gun -- on empty chambers -- causing him to believe he would be killed, according to a description from the North Dakota sex offender registry.

The registry did NOT prevent the crime from happening to Shasta Groene. But its important to know when people like THIS live in your neighborhood regardless....

More: "One of his outstanding warrants is failure to register as a sex offender in Washington," Wolfinger said. "The other is an unlawful flight to avoid prosecution out of Minnesota for second-degree sexual offense."

If this can help those who fail to register go BACK to jail, it's productive.

And again, to hammer this home, according to some of you, THIS GUY WAS BEING OPPRESSED. :o I still can't get over that shit. As you can see, by me beating the dead horse. :D


This sounds like an emotional plea for the death sentence, and Im sure some will say it is. Maybe emotion has a lot do to with it. Eh, it does. But its not JUST that. Whenever someone deserves to be put to death by the government, emotions are bound to be attached somehow.

But in all....the registry is flawed. But necessary. The death penalty is flawed. But necessary.

There is ALSO the extreme rare instance, where prison overpopulation causes extremely dangerous criminals to be released. But thats so rare, it probably doesnt ever really belong here, just saying.

[swivel]

People like Duncan, and Lunsford's killer, deserve to die, simple. And they dont deserve to be able to live in prison, and ever get comfortable, to play card games, monopoly, to laugh with friends, to brag about what they did, to sleep and wake up and eat a decent breakfast. Furthermore....victims like Lunsford's father, and Shasta herself, deserve whatever....whatEVER solace they can get. They need to know that these men are dead, and gone from the Earth. They need some sort of comfort. It goes so much deeper than revenge, IMO, but I dont see anything wrong with revenge either.

I really enjoyed this paragraph. It puts into focus the failure we have to rehabilitate/punish/prevent.

I am always on guard, though, for the things that we do today, that will seem barbaric to future generations. Capital punishment might be one of these things. I haven't quite decided yet.

I like your idea of a more difficult judicial process needed to declare the death penalty. Perhaps if the process failed to declare death, life in prison would be automatic. It would be an either/or situation. There are thousands of murder and rape cases where guilt is not at issue, and it is just a question of sentencing. Perhaps if we were killing thousands of these criminals every year the deterrent effect would begin to work. I know the cost advantages would finally lean the way of capital punishment, over life in prison, if we were killing more people (benefits of scale). Imagine what the word on the street would be if every low-life knew someone that knew someone that was put to death for murder or rape. Automatic with adequate proof. No time in prison for appeals. I think it would begin to resonate with the general public that these actions are no longer tolerated.

It is not an easy subject to feel 100% about in either direction.

[ells9824]

It is not an easy subject to feel 100% about in either direction.

It's really not, especially when technology has proven that time and time again. With that being said, I think the death penalty should mean death if there is dna evidence. No ineffective counsel suits, or cruel and unusual suits. Their victims were not killed humanely.

Now...thats where it will come down to mitigators. Anything you do to yourself should NOT be a mitigating circumstance. If you abuse drugs or alcohol, screw you. Born " No Name Smith" and passed around from orphanage to orphanage and went crazy...maybe.

Underage? bah...you killed someone.

Spoiled rich kid who didn't get their way ... absolutely not. Abused child who goes along with rich kid's fun? Maybe.

There is a case of that example that really made me question my thoughts on the DP, and pretty much dragged me into true-crime and made me understand the term Mitigating circumstance.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

I really enjoyed this paragraph. It puts into focus the failure we have to rehabilitate/punish/prevent.

I am always on guard, though, for the things that we do today, that will seem barbaric to future generations. Capital punishment might be one of these things. I haven't quite decided yet.

I like your idea of a more difficult judicial process needed to declare the death penalty. Perhaps if the process failed to declare death, life in prison would be automatic. It would be an either/or situation. There are thousands of murder and rape cases where guilt is not at issue, and it is just a question of sentencing. Perhaps if we were killing thousands of these criminals every year the deterrent effect would begin to work. I know the cost advantages would finally lean the way of capital punishment, over life in prison, if we were killing more people (benefits of scale). Imagine what the word on the street would be if every low-life knew someone that knew someone that was put to death for murder or rape. Automatic with adequate proof. No time in prison for appeals. I think it would begin to resonate with the general public that these actions are no longer tolerated.

It is not an easy subject to feel 100% about in either direction.


Absolutely.

And the bold gave me chills. Yeah, it would. ANd this comes from me, a person who deserved to die a few times for some of the shit I did. I tell ya...we would laugh at some of the punishments handed out. We laughed at cops. We laughed at the courts. When I went to prison and got out, I bragged about how easy my time was.

I dubbed it Kiddie Camp. If you can fight, if you can garner any kind of respect, or if you leave well enough alone, you're ok there.

Its overall, a myth that kiddie rapists and such get punished inside, like being raped, tortured and all that. Theyre frowned upon, yes, and some ARE beaten, but for the most part, everyone wants to do their time, and get the fuck out, or if theyre in for life, get all the perks they can enjoy. Its certainly been my experience, and the experiences of many I know who have served long sentences, that the worst part of being in prison is the bore factor.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

It's really not, especially when technology has proven that time and time again. With that being said, I think the death penalty should mean death if there is dna evidence. No ineffective counsel suits, or cruel and unusual suits. Their victims were not killed humanely.

Now...thats where it will come down to mitigators. Anything you do to yourself should NOT be a mitigating circumstance. If you abuse drugs or alcohol, screw you. Born " No Name Smith" and passed around from orphanage to orphanage and went crazy...maybe.

Underage? bah...you killed someone.

Spoiled rich kid who didn't get their way ... absolutely not. Abused child who goes along with rich kid's fun? Maybe.

There is a case of that example that really made me question my thoughts on the DP, and pretty much dragged me into true-crime and made me understand the term Mitigating circumstance.


Mitigating circumstances? Absolutely. I've misunderstood it in the past, too. And yes, with the reform, would have to come absolute proof. Beyond a concrete doubt.

So what was the case, jut out of curiosity?

[swivel]

Its certainly been my experience, and the experiences of many I know who have served long sentences, that the worse part of being in prison is the boring factor.

Wow. Not often you get the perspective of someone who has been there, and actually admits what will and won't work. I really appreciate your input on this.

If you ever feel like detailing some of your past, and protecting your anonymity at the same time, we may soon be putting in a system that allows members to "digg" forum posts that could help us generate traffic. Some of the stuff you are writing could definitely become popular.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Wow. Not often you get the perspective of someone who has been there, and actually admits what will and won't work. I really appreciate your input on this.

If you ever feel like detailing some of your past, and protecting your anonymity at the same time, we may soon be putting in a system that allows members to "digg" forum posts that could help us generate traffic. Some of the stuff you are writing could definitely become popular.

I'm only disappointed you quoted that paragraph before I could edit "the WORSE part of it" and the "BORING factor". WOrst and bore, of course, are the words that should be there.

And sure, anytime.

Its nothing special. I just grabbed a 7 year old boy, fucked him in the ass after I stabbed his father in the ear with a screwdriver. Nothing big. And Im still a proponent of registries. :D :D

[ells9824]

Mitigating circumstances? Absolutely. I've misunderstood it in the past, too. And yes, with the reform, would have to come absolute proof. Beyond a concrete doubt.

So what was the case, jut out of curiosity?
It is not one that is well known,or even talked about much.

Joshua David Nelson- FL death row inmate # 989102
http://tinyurl.com/2zyvsb

He is one of 2 kids who killed a kid in Florida. Joshua was 17,Keith Brennan was days from 17. http://tinyurl.com/2hd2n2

Joshua had been physically and sexually abused, shuffled around from relative to relative,and kicked out of his house that day. Keith Brennan had a very privileged upbringing.

The way it went down by both boys accounts, is they had a friend with a car, something neither of them had. His name was Tommy, last name escapes me right now but I used to know it quite well.

Joshua got kicked out of his house by his step-father after getting the crap beat out of him-again. His plan was to somehow get a car and get to family in NJ. Bus or train wasn't an option because he had no money. The only way to get away was theft. Keith Brennan,16, a kid with every break you could ask for and thensome, suggested they steal Tommy's car and go. He was grounded for something or another so he wanted to run away.

The deal was to take the baseball bat Tommy kept in the car and steal the car and drive off into the sunset.
Tommy offered them the car and money, Brennan decided to slit his throat with a boxcutter anyway, even though BOTH the victim and Joshua said they didn't want that.

Kids made it to NJ with their girlfriends and were picked up. Joshua confessed, Brennan hedged and ended up corroborating what Joshua said. Both received the death penalty, and at that point, I'm still not too upset. The killing was Brennan's idea and act, but Nelson was in the thick of it.

Brennan's Dp was overturned because he was not quite 17 when the killing took place,and thats when I got offended. He changed the plan from robbery to murder,he committed the act of murder, he chose to run away from a grounding. It just didn't seem right to me that the kid with out a chance in hell of ever turning into anything but a convict no matter how hard he tried should be put to death for the act of a thrill killer.

[swivel]

Its nothing special. I just grabbed a 7 year old boy, fucked him in the ass after I stabbed his father in the ear with a screwdriver. Nothing big. And Im still a proponent of registries. :D :D

WHA?

C'mon. Don't fuck with me like that.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

It just didn't seem right to me that the kid with out a chance in hell of ever turning into anything but a convict no matter how hard he tried should be put to death for the act of a thrill killer.

Waiteaminute.

Because Im a complete idiot, please clarify that last sentence for me. What, exactly are you saying again?

This isnt a trap question, either, Im truly wanting clarification...

Thanks.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

WHA?

C'mon. Don't fuck with me like that.

Heh heh.

No, I never fucked a kid in the ass....:o

It was other shit...

[swivel]

Heh heh.

No, I never fucked a kid in the ass....:o

It was other shit...

Tease.

[ells9824]

Waiteaminute.

Because Im a complete idiot, please clarify that last sentence for me. What, exactly are you saying again?

This isnt a trap question, either, Im truly wanting clarification...

Thanks.

I though about going back and changing that statement a few times and then I forgot to. I really should have phrased it -end up dead or in prison instead of end up a con.

And even by changing it,its still pure opinion and person bias from things that happened in my personal life,or people I have come in contact with. If you want the history I would be happy to write it all out.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Ya know what? Yeah. I'm curious.

[swivel]

Ya know what? Yeah. I'm curious.

Me too. Can you start a new thread and share?

[CPL CHUD]

Either let it deter by making it public or dump it all together.

[swivel]

Either let it deter by making it public or dump it all together.

Do you think the American public would watch and not be horrified to the point of demanding it to stop? Because even proponents have admitted to being horrified by the sight of it.

Hey, this just came to me... what if the only people who watched were the other inmates? We could broadcast it to every prison, and do it live for the people in the same joint! That would maximize us getting the right audience for the lesson.

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Lol.....that would be great.

Did you know you could make a bow and arrow with a book and a dirty pair of underwear in prison? :o

[swivel]

Lol.....that would be great.

Did you know you could make a bow and arrow with a book and a dirty pair of underwear in prison? :o

What prevents me from doing that at home?

:p

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

What prevents me from doing that at home?

:p

Lmao. Nothing.




Come to think of it......(walks to the drawer and bookshelf).

My ex is coming over tonight.....

[Harley_Tech]

Given the title of this thread...I'll say I've seen the death penalty from both sides of the fence. After the readers view this link, I'll voice my opinion. http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/executedoffenders.htm

Have a look at line #68 and the offender information. That worthless turd was/is my ex wife's uncle. An interesting tidbit is that the night he was executed, I picked his body up at Ellis 1 and drove it to west Texas for burial in my 1989 Chevy Astrovan. I got pulled over for speeding and the trooper about shit himself when I told him I had a dead body in the van with me. He was VERY interested in a very quick explanation of my statement. :)

R

[swivel]

Harley, is it Ruben Cantu?

Great story, btw.

[Harley_Tech]

No, Johnny James

[Harley_Tech]

Johnny got drunk one night at a bar he once bar tended at and after closing he abducted the bartender. He drove her around for a while before stopping at a store where took the clerk there too. He raped both, and shot both killing one and leaving the other for dead. The one left for dead survived and testified against him at trial.

He lived on death row for 7 years until he decided to not continue with appeals. His punishment was living on death row, not his execution. He finally said (to me and others) "I can't go on living like this, let them kill me so my suffering will be over."

His being on death row was actually harder on his family than it was him, at least up until the last couple of years.

His family did not commit a crime, yet they suffered just as much if not more than he did.

I am a firm believer in the death penalty, only not as it is carried out today.

I believe that if you are convicted of a capitol crime, execution should take place within 30 days of your conviction. I believe the old west had it right...walk them out to the gallows after the trial is over.

I also believe that execution should be shown on prime time TV, for free. If it is not something you want to see, I believe that EVERY TV made EVER has an on/off switch. If by some chance, your's does not have a switch, it can be unplugged or you can simply walk away from it during the execution.

I further believe that the death penalty is not about deterrence, it is about making sure the scumbag can't ever do it again. I do however believe it could become a deterrent if done as I suggest above...on TV and withing 30 days of conviction.

Two things I know for sure. Johnny won't ever kill again, and he was/is guilty by his own admission to me.

R

[The Diabolical Mr. Lieman]

Wow. Thanks for the story and link.

I had a friend, his name was Eric, this guy who worked for me a while back. He's in prison now, and will spend many many years there for a crime in Florida, that authorities called a "violent rape" to me when I inquired when he'd be let out of jail in NC....but he was extradited to FLorida because of the rape.

The reason I liked Eric, was because he reminded me of me. (not the rape)

He was a guy trying to live straight, with a family, a new life---but who had very very violent tendencies, and fought to control them. I struggle with it, and he did, and because of this, we became close. I feel awful, because we engaged in some crazy shit together, involving a ruthless beating of two wanna be pimps. The taste of blood was back for the both of us, only I could control it. He coulnt. In the weeks following, he was hitting people left and right, stealing cars and shit, which I fucking HAAAATE (I have no respect for thieves and shit) and getting into serious trouble. He got caught with a stolen vehicle, and later I found out he beat up a young couple and took them out of the car...and later found out also, that he beat his wife, not to mention the violent rape. I found out the guy had a rap sheet a mile long...and realized he was nothing like me. He was far worse.

When he was drunk, he would talk in voices, and we'd laugh and butt heads and shit....but one time he told me he was planning a home invasion. I didnt believe him at the time......but now I wonder.

ANYWAY.....the moral to all this shit is this....I loved Eric dearly when I knew him. He was fiercely loyal to me. But I found out a lot of shit I didnt know about him, and one is that the guy cannot be rehabilitated. I know this for a fact. I knew the guy when I thought he was a lesser version of what he truly was. Do I think he should die? No.

But as long as he's out, he'll be trouble for people. Stealing trucks, viciously assaulting innocent people....and there are people far worse than him out there, that...well, just deserve to die, because as long as our pussy ass prisons let them out, they'll continue to get worse, and commit more crimes, worse crimes.

Im not sure if I made much sense here....:confused:

[taintfutcha]

I am a firm believer in the death penalty, only not as it is carried out today.

I believe that if you are convicted of a capitol crime, execution should take place within 30 days of your conviction. I believe the old west had it right...walk them out to the gallows after the trial is over.

I also believe that execution should be shown on prime time TV, for free. If it is not something you want to see, I believe that EVERY TV made EVER has an on/off switch. If by some chance, your's does not have a switch, it can be unplugged or you can simply walk away from it during the execution.

I further believe that the death penalty is not about deterrence, it is about making sure the scumbag can't ever do it again. I do however believe it could become a deterrent if done as I suggest above...on TV and withing 30 days of conviction.

R

i concur wholeheartedly-cheers

shot 3 times in the head and live to finger the perp-good on her

[swivel]

I also believe that execution should be shown on prime time TV, for free. If it is not something you want to see, I believe that EVERY TV made EVER has an on/off switch. If by some chance, your's does not have a switch, it can be unplugged or you can simply walk away from it during the execution.

Excellent post! I agree with everything but the bit I quoted.

You see, Morbid's TV can't be turned off. If he turns it off, when he turns it back on, it blows a fuse. True story. Seriously.

And Morbid has 8 children (the number may be larger, I don't want to say), who would be forced to watch. Or play XBox. One of the two.

[Harley_Tech]

Excellent post! I agree with everything but the bit I quoted.

You see, Morbid's TV can't be turned off. If he turns it off, when he turns it back on, it blows a fuse. True story. Seriously.



Morbid runs this site, probably from behind a very expensive confuser....DUDE, fix the fuggin TV for that "herd" of kids man! :) :p

[Jaded]

Absolutely.

Its overall, a myth that kiddie rapists and such get punished inside, like being raped, tortured and all that. Theyre frowned upon, yes, and some ARE beaten, but for the most part, everyone wants to do their time, and get the fuck out, or if theyre in for life, get all the perks they can enjoy. Its certainly been my experience, and the experiences of many I know who have served long sentences, that the worst part of being in prison is the bore factor.


It is a myth...most baby rapers are kept in isolation so that others CAN'T get at them. Now..if they were put in GP with lifers who just don't give a shit anymore, that might be a different story. Baby rapers have more rights than the children they have abused.

Lately, it seems to me that they are really just getting a slap on the wrist. They are allowed back out into society to manipulate and rape all over again. I did a search of sex offenders in my neighborhood recently. I wasn't looking for rapists so much as I was for pedophiles. There are 5 registered sex offenders within 3 miles of my home. One of these pervs (a level 3 sex offender) lives about 4 blocks away from the elementary school. One of these 'upstanding citizens' has been convicted of 74 counts of sexual abuse on a child under the age of 12. 74!!! I'm sorry....but, why the hell is this dude still walking upright?!? He should be 6 feet under IMO. Isn't 1 conviction enough??

K...I rambled a bit. I guess what I'm trying to say is this: When you have DNA...a helpless, emotionally ruined, possibly dead victim...proof beyond reasonable doubt...etc. GET HIM OUT OF SOCIETY!!! PERIOD!! Don't think that because he is behind bars that some defense lawyer can't find a loop hole that will allow him to roam free again. Don't think that because he has to 'register' as a sex offender that it will humiliate him so bad that he won't do it again. BS...you can't fix these pervs. Well, you can....with a well placed bullet. :mad:

[swivel]

Welcome to the site, So Jaded. I enjoyed your post.

[Jaded]

Thank you!
Glad to have found this site. I don't know how I've survived so long without it. ;)

[swivel]

Thank you!
Glad to have found this site. I don't know how I've survived so long without it. ;)

Pretty soon you will wonder how you survived US! ;)

[Jaded]

Psshhh....you don't scare me. I have teenagers....4 of em. And 3 are girls! :p

[swivel]

Psshhh....you don't scare me. I have teenagers....4 of em. And 3 are girls! :p

No wonder you are So Jaded! :eek:

[Red24256]

Hi there, this is my first post... I was curious as to how you know so much on the Nelson case. I knew Joshua for several years, and I must tell you that I also believed that Brennan held the majority of the responsibility for that killing - it was HIS girlfriend that was the cause of the whole ordeal. As for Josh, nothing can excuse his crime, but Joshua suffered for SO many years at the hands of his family that he will never, ever, move past that abandonment and hurt.

I have also thought it unfair that Josh is left on Death Row while Brennan gained a reprieve - if only for being under the age of 18. Just one correction - Josh was 18 at the time of the crime, not 17. His birthday was in January, and the crime occurred in March. Not enough to make you a responsible adult, but enough to make you Death Penalty eligible.

All my best, and I look forward to more conversation!

Red

[Ashes]

Hi there, this is my first post... I was curious as to how you know so much on the Nelson case. I knew Joshua for several years, and I must tell you that I also believed that Brennan held the majority of the responsibility for that killing - it was HIS girlfriend that was the cause of the whole ordeal. As for Josh, nothing can excuse his crime, but I have also thought it unfair that Josh is left on Death Row while Brennan gained a reprieve - if only for being under the age of 18. Just one correction - Josh was 18 at the time of the crime, not 17. His birthday was in January, and the crime occurred in March. Not enough to make you a responsible adult, but enough to make you Death Penalty eligible.

All my best, and I look forward to more conversation!

Red




Red-
I find it quite interesting that you are such an expert on Joshua Nelson since you have not spoken with him in years and if my memory serves me correctly, he has requested that you move on with your life and leave his name out of your mouth. I see that is not the case since you feel the need to comment on his previous emotional state.. "Joshua suffered for SO many years at the hands of his family that he will never, ever, move past that abandonment and hurt." Now, I would like to take a moment to put your mind at ease. Joshua Nelson no longer suffers from such issues since I have been introduced into his life, consider it a blessing for us both.

If anyone has any questions regarding Joshua Nelson, I am his fiancee and I will be glad to answer them... accurately.

~Ashes

[Lizard]

I haven't read this full thread, so I'm not going to comment, other than to say welcome, Ashes.

[Kalehue]

Harley, is it Ruben Cantu?
quote]


http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/canturuben.jpg

[quote]Texas executed its fifth teenage offender at 22 minutes after midnight on Aug. 24, 1993, after his last request for bubble gum had been refused and his final claim of innocence had been forever silenced.

Ruben Cantu, 17 at the time of his crime, had no previous convictions, but a San Antonio prosecutor had branded him a violent thief, gang member and murderer who ruthlessly shot one victim nine times with a rifle before emptying at least nine more rounds into the only eyewitness — a man who barely survived to testify.

Four days after a Bexar County jury delivered its verdict, Cantu wrote this letter to the residents of San Antonio: "My name is Ruben M. Cantu and I am only 18 years old. I got to the 9th grade and I have been framed in a capital murder case."

A dozen years after his execution, a Houston Chronicle investigation suggests that Cantu, a former special-ed student who grew up in a tough neighborhood on the south side of San Antonio, was likely telling the truth.

Cantu's long-silent co-defendant, David Garza, just 15 when the two boys allegedly committed a murder-robbery together, has signed a sworn affidavit saying he allowed his friend to be falsely accused, though Cantu wasn't with him the night of the killing.

And the lone eyewitness, the man who survived the shooting, has recanted. He told the Chronicle he's sure that the person who shot him was not Cantu, but he felt pressured by police to identify the boy as the killer. Juan Moreno, an illegal immigrant at the time of the shooting, said his damning in-court identification was based on his fear of authorities and police interest in Cantu.

Cantu "was innocent. It was a case of an innocent person being killed," Moreno said.

These men, whose lives are united by nothing more than a single act of violence on Nov. 8, 1984, both claim that Texas executed the wrong man. Both believe they could have saved Cantu if they had had the courage to tell the truth before he died at 26.

Full story at http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3472872.html

http://www.tdcj.state.tx.us/stat/canturuben.htm

[Kalehue]

Not trying to resurrect an old thread, but Harley told me about his ex-wife's uncle who had been executed and I was curious to know more. He directed me to the info he had posted in this link. I spent some time and read through the link -- very interesting -- and was curious about Swivel's reference to Ruben Cantu, so did a little research.

WOW. I have to say that I used to be a rabid supporter of the death penalty, but some of the recent conviction reversals due to DNA, etc., and this case have definitely given me pause. I agree with Swivel's statement earlier that the system is so flawed, that it should be halted.

I truly don't have a problem with the death penalty if there is solid physical proof like DNA evidence or surveillance footage, etc. But even eyewitness testimony has been shown to be faulty. And if there is solid evidence and someone is convicted, execution should be swift -- no rights to endless appeals.

Forget the basketball courts and cable TV -- but rather than putting convicts behind plexiglass and dropping food through chutes to them, what's wrong with making them work? We used to have prison farms outside of Houston (in Sugar Land) where prisoners would get out in the hot sun and work while deputies and guards on horseback (with weapons in hand) would supervise them. Unfortunately, the land became more valuable than the crops that it yielded and it was recently sold off to developers. The TDCJ Central Unit still has a soap and detergent factory that manufactures all the soap for the Texas Prison System. Put 'em to work.

If someone is death penalty eligible and they end up getting life, that should mean life WITHOUT parole.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. For any other newbies -- this was a very interesting thread with some great posts.

[Silvahalo]

We pretend that the death penalty serves as a deterrent, but we hide the process from those that we mean to fear. I think right now the system is just for vengeance, which is troubling.

Yes, and I speak of vengeance on many a post, but that is mostly my outrage speaking....got to vent somewhere somehow. I believe in justice and in my opinion sometimes that means death.

I rather like the idea from the movie, "Escape From New York", Manhattan Island is a walled off prison. Put all the murder, raping bastards, the most deplorable and depraved, dump their asses there and let them all go at it and kill themselves off....yeah, love it.

I don't agree in killing off those who are born with mentally disabilities a disadvantage that is not their fault. Now for stupid people, doing stupid things. I guess on what kind of stupid. A stupid, idiot, complete moron who gets off on doing stupid shit, I guess the jury's out on that. It would depend on the nature of the stupid act and if lives were lost, etc.

[Pete Bondurant]

Is execution moral?

That I do not know...but it is necessary and fun.

[HijabiGirl]

Red-
I find it quite interesting that you are such an expert on Joshua Nelson since you have not spoken with him in years and if my memory serves me correctly, he has requested that you move on with your life and leave his name out of your mouth. I see that is not the case since you feel the need to comment on his previous emotional state.. "Joshua suffered for SO many years at the hands of his family that he will never, ever, move past that abandonment and hurt." Now, I would like to take a moment to put your mind at ease. Joshua Nelson no longer suffers from such issues since I have been introduced into his life, consider it a blessing for us both.

If anyone has any questions regarding Joshua Nelson, I am his fiancee and I will be glad to answer them... accurately.

~Ashes


Hi Ashes, and welcome to the site. I am not read on the Nelson case but correct me if I am wrong, you're engaged to someone on death row? How did you come to know Joshua? Are you making plans for your future...together?

[Harley_Tech]

Hi Ashes, and welcome to the site. I am not read on the Nelson case but correct me if I am wrong, you're engaged to someone on death row? How did you come to know Joshua? Are you making plans for your future...together?

I just want to point out that the thread is over a year old and she is not likely to respond to your question.

R

[Sister Iroz]

Johnny got drunk one night at a bar he once bar tended at and after closing he abducted the bartender. He drove her around for a while before stopping at a store where took the clerk there too. He raped both, and shot both killing one and leaving the other for dead. The one left for dead survived and testified against him at trial.

He lived on death row for 7 years until he decided to not continue with appeals. His punishment was living on death row, not his execution. He finally said (to me and others) "I can't go on living like this, let them kill me so my suffering will be over."

His being on death row was actually harder on his family than it was him, at least up until the last couple of years.

His family did not commit a crime, yet they suffered just as much if not more than he did.

I am a firm believer in the death penalty, only not as it is carried out today.

I believe that if you are convicted of a capitol crime, execution should take place within 30 days of your conviction. I believe the old west had it right...walk them out to the gallows after the trial is over.

I also believe that execution should be shown on prime time TV, for free. If it is not something you want to see, I believe that EVERY TV made EVER has an on/off switch. If by some chance, your's does not have a switch, it can be unplugged or you can simply walk away from it during the execution.

I further believe that the death penalty is not about deterrence, it is about making sure the scumbag can't ever do it again. I do however believe it could become a deterrent if done as I suggest above...on TV and withing 30 days of conviction.

Two things I know for sure. Johnny won't ever kill again, and he was/is guilty by his own admission to me.

R

I have to say I totally agree with Harley here. I am totally for the Death Penalty but I say it needs to be done with in a certain time frame, maybe like 15-30 days. This is bullshit keeping them in the prison system for years sitting in a jail cell doing nothing but eating our food and wasting our money. But I think using lethal injection is to painless for them I say do it either by Firing Squad or Electrocution. I'm kinda morbid and I like to see them suffer after the suffering they put there victims through. Here's a little bit of information on both and you will see why I like electrocution for them.


Electrocution

Seeking a more humane method of execution than hanging, New York built the first electric chair in 1888 and executed William Kemmler in 1890. Soon, other states adopted this execution method. Today, electrocution is not used as the sole method of execution in any state. Electrocution was the sole method in Nebraska until the State Supreme Court ruled the method unconstitutional in February 2008. For execution by the electric chair, the person is usually shaved and strapped to a chair with belts that cross his chest, groin, legs, and arms. A metal skullcap-shaped electrode is attached to the scalp and forehead over a sponge moistened with saline. The sponge must not be too wet or the saline short-circuits the electric current, and not too dry, as it would then have a very high resistance. An additional electrode is moistened with conductive jelly (Electro-Creme) and attached to a portion of the prisoner's leg that has been shaved to reduce resistance to electricity. The prisoner is then blindfolded. (Hillman, 1992 and Weisberg, 1991) After the execution team has withdrawn to the observation room, the warden signals the executioner, who pulls a handle to connect the power supply. A jolt of between 500 and 2000 volts, which lasts for about 30 seconds, is given. The current surges and is then turned off, at which time the body is seen to relax. The doctors wait a few seconds for the body to cool down and then check to see if the inmate's heart is still beating. If it is, another jolt is applied. This process continues until the prisoner is dead. The prisoner's hands often grip the chair and there may be violent movement of the limbs which can result in dislocation or fractures. The tissues swell. Defecation occurs. Steam or smoke rises and there is a smell of burning. (Hillman, 1992 and Weisberg, 1991) U.S. Supreme Court Justice William Brennan once offered the following description of an execution by electric chair:

...the prisoner's eyeballs sometimes pop out and rest on [his] cheeks. The prisoner often defecates, urinates, and vomits blood and drool. The body turns bright red as its temperature rises, and the prisoner's flesh swells and his skin stretches to the point of breaking. Sometimes the prisoner catches fire....Witnesses hear a loud and sustained sound like bacon frying, and the sickly sweet smell of burning flesh permeates the chamber. (Ecenbarger, 1994)

At postmortem, the body is hot enough to blister if touched, and the autopsy is delayed while the internal organs cool. There are third degree burns with blackening where the electrodes met the skin of the scalp and legs. According to Robert H. Kirschner, the deputy chief medical examiner of Cook County, "The brain appears cooked in most cases." (Weisberg, 1991)

Firing Squad


Firing squad still remains a method of execution in Idaho, although lethal injection as an alternative method is allowed. The most recent execution by this method was that of John Albert Taylor. By his own choosing, Taylor was executed by firing squad in Utah on January 26, 1996. For execution by this method, the inmate is typically bound to a chair with leather straps across his waist and head, in front of an oval-shaped canvas wall. The chair is surrounded by sandbags to absorb the inmate's blood. A black hood is pulled over the inmate's head. A doctor locates the inmate's heart with a stethoscope and pins a circular white cloth target over it. Standing in an enclosure 20 feet away, five shooters are armed with .30 caliber rifles loaded with single rounds. One of the shooters is given blank rounds. Each of the shooters aims his rifle through a slot in the canvas and fires at the inmate. (Weisberg, 1991) The prisoner dies as a result of blood loss caused by rupture of the heart or a large blood vessel, or tearing of the lungs. The person shot loses consciousness when shock causes a fall in the supply of blood to the brain. If the shooters miss the heart, by accident or intention, the prisoner bleeds to death slowly. (Hillman, 1992 and Weisberg, 1991)
WARNING PICTURES THAT I HAVE POSTED ARE VERY GRAPHIC

The execution of Allen Lee Davis in the Florida electric chair on July 8, 1999, was so violent that it set off a shock wave that rippled around the world. When the Florida Supreme Court ruled, yet again, that execution by electrocution is not unconstitutional, a dissenting justice attached three photographs of the execution to his dissent and posted them on the Florida Supreme Court web site.

The photographs drew attention from all over the world, with many foreign visitors expressing disgust, while many Floridians rallied in support of "Old Sparky," as the Florida electric chair is known. One Florida woman, in an email to the court, described the photographs as "wonderful."

Each person can view the photographs, and read the following lengthy excerpt from the dissent of Justice Shaw and come to his or her own conclusion as to the propriety of capital punishment, and electrocution in particular. As Justice Shaw points out, the United States is the only country in the world that uses electrocution as a means of execution, and even in the United States only three states still use this method of execution.

Justice Shaw describes in detail three recent executions, including that of Davis, wherein the execution went awry. He points out that Davis not only died from electrocution, but from being smothered by the large leather strap that held his head to the electric chair. Witnesses described Davis as either screaming or moaning prior to the current being turned on.

Davis had been convicted for murdering a woman and her two daughters. That his crimes were heinous and totally reprehensible is not in dispute. What is controversial is how Davis was executed. His death was tortured and violent. His execution was so bungled that his cause of death was at least partially due to asphyxiation. In killing Davis in such an intentionally inept manner, the State of Florida sank to a gruesome level of barbarity. For those who don't care that Florida violated Davis' civil rights, and for those, in fact, who applaud the cruel and unusual punishment inflicted on Davis, I can only say that in trashing his rights Florida trashed everyone's rights. Does anyone really want the government in charge of torture as well as incarceration and execution? A government with such power would be known as a police state.
http://www.crimemagazine.com/davis1.htm

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo35/Special2bme/davis1.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo35/Special2bme/davis3.jpg

http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo35/Special2bme/davis2.jpg
[/quote]
Now see I feel who gives a shit he suffered he made his victims suffer so why should we show him any kind of pity.

[Nell]

That pic needs a warning! Man o man. :P

[Kalehue]

Now see I feel who gives a shit he suffered he made his victims suffer so why should we show him any kind of pity.

I don't disagree at all if we know for sure that person being executed was guilty. I've always been very pro-death penalty, but some of the conviction reversals due to DNA evidence, etc., are making me rethink my position -- at least until we have some sort of assurance that we're not letting innocent people slip through the cracks.

Boy, Mr. Davis certainly appears have been well-fed during his years in prison.

[Sister Iroz]

I don't disagree at all if we know for sure that person being executed was guilty. I've always been very pro-death penalty, but some of the conviction reversals due to DNA evidence, etc., are making me rethink my position -- at least until we have some sort of assurance that we're not letting innocent people slip through the cracks.

Boy, Mr. Davis certainly appears have been well-fed during his years in prison.

Oh I agree with you I wouldn't want to put an innocent man to death.

[Sister Iroz]

That pic needs a warning! Man o man. :P

Nell, I put in a warning that pics are very graphic thanks for the suggestion.

[Harley_Tech]

WOW. I have to say that I used to be a rabid supporter of the death penalty, but some of the recent conviction reversals due to DNA, etc., and this case have definitely given me pause. I agree with Swivel's statement earlier that the system is so flawed, that it should be halted.

I truly don't have a problem with the death penalty if there is solid physical proof like DNA evidence or surveillance footage, etc. But even eyewitness testimony has been shown to be faulty. And if there is solid evidence and someone is convicted, execution should be swift -- no rights to endless appeals.

Forget the basketball courts and cable TV -- but rather than putting convicts behind plexiglass and dropping food through chutes to them, what's wrong with making them work? We used to have prison farms outside of Houston (in Sugar Land) where prisoners would get out in the hot sun and work while deputies and guards on horseback (with weapons in hand) would supervise them. Unfortunately, the land became more valuable than the crops that it yielded and it was recently sold off to developers. The TDCJ Central Unit still has a soap and detergent factory that manufactures all the soap for the Texas Prison System. Put 'em to work.

If someone is death penalty eligible and they end up getting life, that should mean life WITHOUT parole.

Anyway, just my 2 cents. For any other newbies -- this was a very interesting thread with some great posts.


First I would caution that a lot of times these reversals sited are for non death penalty cases. I've seen this reason stated many times as a reason to halting the death penalty, but don't recall any of those reversals being DP cases. I'm not saying there have not been DP reversals, I just have not seen them. I'm sure there are some out there.

So many of the reversals that have occurred were cases where eye witness testimony was the primary evidence against the accused and long enough ago that DNA was not even an option.

I am becoming more and more a believer that eyewitness ID is near worthless in its current form and application. There are ways to make eyewitness ID better and those methods are being used in more jurisdiction every day. For one, the person presenting a photo line up should have no idea which photo is the actual suspect. For another, all photos should be of potential suspects all dressed exactly alike or head shot only showing no clothing. In all live line ups the subjects should all be dressed in the same clothing given as a description of the suspect so witness must rely on facial recognition only.

All DNA evidence in capitol crimes today should be tested by the court at 2 separate labs unknown to either prosecution or defense and results returned to the court to be distributed to both prosecution and defense at the same time to eliminate either side being able to withhold that evidence. The two labs should suffice to ensure that testing is both reliable and accurate, no matter the results. IMO

If a conviction is the result of DNA evidence there should be a limit of 90 days on any and all appeals and execution should be carried out at the end of that 90 days, IMO. Then, and only then will it have any deterrent effect if someone needs to believe the DP is a deterrent to crime.

I agree with you that should a DP sentence be commuted to life, that life sentence should be without parole and at hard labor. What really ever happened to a sentence being at hard labor? IMO there really is nothing wrong with prisoners making little rocks out of big rocks.

Just a few more of my rambling thoughts on the DP and how it should be carried out.

R

[Steph]

So I didn't realize the thread was a year old until it was pointed out, but i thought it very interesting. I'm not gonna quote some of the things from a year ago - but

Harley - Thank you for sharing. I agree w/you that I support the DP in principle, but not the way it's being carried out today. Unfortunately, the entire freaking system needs to be reformed, hopefully Holder will improve it. The percentage of individuals on death row proven innocent was appalling in so many states. In the case of pedophiles getting out of jail and later killing a child, that person should not have been out of jail in the first case in most instances. First time sex offender's are given far too light of a sentence in most cases, meanwhile the kid who had a dime bag got 10 yrs. A life sentence should be a real life sentence, w/out parole, and w/out internet and other amenities. The priorities need to change.

I don't believe, however, even if the system becomes flawless, that rapists etc should be executed. Not that I'm agreeing at all w/what they did, but I think they should have life w/no parole. I agree w/the last SC decision - if the penalty for molesting/raping someone was the same as for killing someone, why not kill the person and try to avoid getting caught at all, as opposed to leaving the victim alive and leaving a witness.

And finally, John Grisham's book, "Innocent Man" is an AMAZING book dealing w/DP and I think everyone should read it. It was his first non-fiction book, and he did a great job and gives good perspective

[Kalehue]

If a conviction is the result of DNA evidence there should be a limit of 90 days on any and all appeals and execution should be carried out at the end of that 90 days, IMO. Then, and only then will it have any deterrent effect if someone needs to believe the DP is a deterrent to crime.

AMEN! What's to appeal? Especially if the DNA evidence has been tested by two independent labs. It's not the execution, but the endless appeals that cost the taxpayer so much money.

I agree with most of what you said, Harley, but the story of Ruben Cantu got to me. And I agree with Special -- I don't even care if they suffer a little if we're sure they're guilty of what they've been accused of. They certainly made their victims suffer.

Steph, you are so right. Our entire system needs to be reformed. Especially when you read stories of child rapists and molesters walking free. Holy cow. And if you had asked me before I read your post, I would have said that rapists need to be executed, too. You've certainly given me food for thought on that topic, as well.

I'm going to read "Innocent Man."

[Harley_Tech]

And finally, John Grisham's book, "Innocent Man" is an AMAZING book dealing w/DP and I think everyone should read it. It was his first non-fiction book, and he did a great job and gives good perspective


Oddly enough, I have the book on a shelf right behind me and have only read about the first 90 pages. It moved so slow I could not get through it. Maybe I'll give it another shot some time.

R

[Pete Bondurant]

No one is innocent!

[Sister Iroz]

Why isn't our prison life rough, so people won't be coming back as much. We make prison life to much like home for our prisoners so why should they care about bettering themselves. We need to make it more like it used to be when it was Prison Camps where they worked there asses off!

[MadmamainNC]

I agree. I often wonder if our rates of repeat offenders are as high as they were in the 20's or 30's when we had chain gangs?

Too many rights for prisoners have made a mockery out of the penal system.

I'm not for cruel practices as we would see in other countries but I am totally against making it more comfortable for them to be there.

As for the death penalty, I am for it while I would like to see less tax payers money spent. I am sure a shot of Kevorkian is much cheaper than the electric chair.

Maybe every single prisoner should be sitting in the audience watching? While I am sure some would get off on it, there are those who have committed other crimes who just may think twice before doing it again.

[Sister Iroz]

I am sure a shot of Kevorkian is much cheaper than the electric chair.


I'm sure it is cheaper but see it's less painful and I want to inflict pain on the person just like they did there victims. I know that may seem cruel but weren't they cruel to them. Think of the way some of these victims died, Jeffrey Dahmer is a perfect example. I can't and don't want to think of the way these victims may have suffered. Hopefully they were passed out with the drug he may have given them. But that is just an example of why I want them to suffer with pain they deserve it. Also, an example of why they need to be working there damn asses off in the prison system instead of watching tv, and ordering things in a fucking store to eat or use.