Unidentified Homicide Victims

[Undeniable Truth]

In April of 1995, two bodies were found near my hometown of McAlester, OK. Neither victim has ever been identified, and there have been no leads, suspect(s) or arrests.

It has always bothered me that these victims have never been identified. Someone out there must know who they are, and that information might be a step in the right direction toward finding their killer or killers.

Please take a look at the following links, paying particular attention to the male victim's tattoos. Both of their watches were set one hour behind Oklahoma time, which points to them not being from here.


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/419umok.html
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seekinfo/ok100803.htm

[Pete Bondurant]

I was in Zaire at that time, so...it wasn't me.

[Morticia]

I was in Zaire at that time, so...it wasn't me.

:rolleyes2:

[Undeniable Truth]

I've been searching for males and females missing since March of 1995. The only one that I can find that is a near match is the case of Bonnie Pearl Polwarth from Brandon, Manitoba, Canada. She disappeared from a mental facility on March 15th of that year, and fits the description for the most part, except for the age. Given the distance from where she disappeared to where the bodies of the Crowder point does were found, it would have taken them about 20 hours (nonstop) to get from A to B. The estimated date of death on the does is about March 18th.

Also, to get from A to B, the shortest distance takes U.S. Highway 69 S. The does were found 10 miles north of McAlester, OK just off of U.S. 69 by lake Eufaula. There's a southbound exit to Crowder point, of course (As I mentioned, I'm from there). Highway 69 continues on through Texas.

I emailed the Brandon crime unit with the hopes of at least getting a rule out. If it's not her, I'd like to hear that before I really begin searching through older cases.

http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/2407dfmb.html

[Undeniable Truth]

Edit: I made a mistake on the aerial image that I've posted in this one, and it has been pointed out to me by another poster on a local blog (Thank you rat1993!). The image is of the town of Crowder itself, not Crowder Point. The Point is about 2 miles south of Crowder along that same highway. I thought it was supposed to be the point, but couldn't seem to really make it fit my memory. I suppose that's because it wasn't a photo of the point at all.


Excuse me. That title should say "They rode the rails". Must've been some kind of subconscious faux pas.

The following is an aerial photo of the Crowder point area (image thieved from crimeshadows.com). From what I can tell, the thick white line would be Highway 69. The darker line on the left side of it would be the railway (the MKT according to the sites). The smaller road that crosses it (kind of loops on the right side of 69 then crosses over it and runs off in the top left of the photo) looks like Rock Creek Road to me, but I could be mistaken. I've sent in an email to LE asking if they can possibly e mail a map with the discovery location and everything marked:

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc354/soonermagic70/crowderpoint.jpg

According to the sites the does, after being killed, were drug about 40 yards into the woods. It says they were about 1/2 mile from the Crowder point entrance, and about 50 yards west of the rail.

The following is a map of the MKT:

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc354/soonermagic70/MKTmap.png

You can see the specified portion of the rail running north and south on the right side of the state. If these two rode the rail, since their watches were set to MST, it seems to make more sense that they would've been traveling North to South. As though they were coming from somewhere in the Mountain Zone. At least that's my guess, though it could've very well been the exact opposite and they'd just set their watches in anticipation.

The image below is a map of the entire Union Pacific railway (which incorporates the MKT):

http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc354/soonermagic70/Unionpacificmap.png

You can see that the MKT meets up with east and west running lines in Nebraska.

[Becca]

Maybe it's me, but am I the only one who is sad they are still unidentified after 13 years? With dental records and DNA technology being what it is, they don't have anything to figure out who these people are? I would hope someone loves and misses them.

[Undeniable Truth]

I just received the e mail from the Brandon, Manitoba crime unit saying that it's not. I knew it was a long shot, but I'm still a bit disappointed merely because she was the only close match from that same timeframe.

Damn it.

[Undeniable Truth]

Maybe it's me, but am I the only one who is sad they are still unidentified after 13 years? With dental records and DNA technology being what it is, they don't have anything to figure out who these people are? I would hope someone loves and misses them.

It bugs the hell out of me. I've come across so many cases like these during my search: the missing that nobody seems to be missing. This one's always on my mind because of the closeness to home. I keep telling myself that I'll look more closely at the other cases that have caught my attention during my search after I get past this one. I just can't seem to get past this one. I remember seeing the photos of the facial reconstructions in the paper shortly after they were complete and thinking "They'll never be identified unless someone recognizes his tattoos".

I think about them alot, hoping that they weren't possibly traveling with children who were then abducted, wondering if the only person who knows they're missing is the person who killed them, stuff like that.

I e mailed nearly every newspaper in every populated city in the MST last week, asking for them to run a story on this couple and send it out over AP. I only had one response, and nothing since.

I'm actually to the point where I probably need to walk away from this one before I start pulling my hair out. Start focusing on the others instead or something.

[Undeniable Truth]

I just got off the phone with one of the detectives with the Pittsburg County Sheriff's department. I asked him several questions, and this was the information given to me:

1) Blood and hair samples were taken from the victims by the OSBI. He could not tell me if said samples were available in CODIS, so I intend to call the OSBI later today and see if I can find out.

2) In his reports there are only descriptions of the rings, watches and clothing, etc, that were on the victims when found. He said that there were probably photos taken, but that they were not in front of him in the file.

3) There was no indication that the female had ever given birth to a child.

4) Both victims were found with no shoes on, but their socks were clean. This is important to me because it suggests that they were not transients and did not come off the rail. It also suggests that they were not walked out to the dumpsite and murdered on the spot. This information, along with both victims having been shot in the chest suggests (to the detective) that they were shot and killed in the back seat (to me it would have to be the back seat if this is the case) of a vehicle which then exited off the highway, went through the Crowder point entrance and stopped about a 1/2 mile south of Crowder point itself to dump them.

5) There was nothing in his reports regarding the statement on the doe network that the male victim's jeans pocket was cut open. That does not mean that it was not, it just means that particular piece of information did not come from the Pittsburg County sheriff's office. Possible from the FBI or OSBI instead?

[swivel]

Brilliant thread, Undeniable. It is fun to watch your brain tick and your research skills kick in. I hope your digging leads to something.

And I know you have been here for over half a year now, but welcome to the site. It was made for people like you.


Edit: What makes you think they were shot in the back seat of a vehicle? Could they not have been shot while lying prone on the ground? Or could they have been marched into the woods, shot there, and then had their shoes removed and destroyed to hamper the investigation? Or shot somewhere else, loaded in a trunk, van or truck, and moved to the dump site?

I would think shooting people in the back seat of a car would be messy and unwise.

[SoUncool]

I'm wondering if maybe someone took their shoes because whatever might have been on the bottom of them would have been a huge clue? I am thinking that their shoes were removed AFTER they drug out to the location where they were found?

[Undeniable Truth]

Brilliant thread, Undeniable. It is fun to watch your brain tick and your research skills kick in. I hope your digging leads to something.

And I know you have been here for over half a year now, but welcome to the site. It was made for people like you.


Edit: What makes you think they were shot in the back seat of a vehicle? Could they not have been shot while lying prone on the ground? Or could they have been marched into the woods, shot there, and then had their shoes removed and destroyed to hamper the investigation? Or shot somewhere else, loaded in a trunk, van or truck, and moved to the dump site?

I would think shooting people in the back seat of a car would be messy and unwise.

Thank you very much swivel.

I thought about your first question shortly after I posted this. Over the phone, Detective Williams gave me the "shot in the car" scenario. He said that it appeared to him that possibly the two were relaxing or sleeping in a vehicle with their shoes off. Limited mobility in a confined area, buckled into a seatbelt perhaps. Perhaps "messy" wouldn't be an issue if a killer intends to dump or destroy the car to begin with, particularly if the car actually belongs to the victims and not the perp. When he stated their assumptions, the element of surprise popped into my head. If two people are, for instance, asleep in a rail car and someone shoots one them there's a chance that the other will wake up, jump up, move, try to run, etc (unless a silencer was used) before one can get off a second shot. I'm don't know much about ballistics and trajectory either, but the department may have come to that conclusion based on that information as well. The detective did seem to lean toward them not coming off the rail. However, I do truely hope that all rail cars used by the MKT during that period were scoured for crime scene evidence.

Something else crossed my mind last week. At Crowder point there is an area that the locals know as "Crowder Cliffs", a place with high cliffs that we all used to bail off of into the lake. They are constantly finding vehicles that have been rolled off the cliffs into the lake, many of which are reported stolen. I guess it's always possible that one of the vehicles that they've pulled from there since could belong to these people? Grasping at straws here, but it's a thought that did cross my mind.

As far as I can remember everything I've read regarding them states that they were "dragged into the woods", and that's what the detective repeated over the phone. I'm assuming that there is other evidence pointing toward that: drag marks on the bodies, dragging injuries and whatnot (it's a wooded area, rocks and sticks might've poked and scraped them on the way).

It is quite possible that they were killed elsewhere and moved to the dumpsite. I wonder if blood spatter (or running) or lack of fiber evidence made them think otherwise or what?

I don't know. Excellent questions, much to consider.

[Silvahalo]

Welcome Undeniable Truth, if I haven't already said that...I know I've seen you around.

I'm really impressed with your research skills and more so for your passion and drive to solve this missing persons case. You have a great talent, smart and a good heart. Something hard to find in one person. Good luck to you, great sleuthing!

[Undeniable Truth]

Thank you very much for your kind words silva. I can't tell you how appreciative I am of these posts, which are coming just as I'm about to reach my wit's end on the matter.

I've put my call in to the OSBI, and I'm waiting for the proper person to call me back. It may be tomorrow. Keeping my fingers crossed that they've got (or will take) photos of the personal effects to release.

[SoUncool]

I am enjoying reading your posts Undeniable, keep up the good work! It is very honorable that you are taking the time to help find these two victims some justice.

[Undeniable Truth]

Thank you Un. I forgot to mention earlier that I've thought about the set up scene as well, right down to the rings and everything. Man, that would completely suck if that's what happened.

Detective Mackey at the OSBI returned my call this afternoon. He says that he remembers talk about exhuming the couple to get DNA profiles, but that he wasn't sure if it had ever been done. My guess is not. McAlester is a small city, and I think it would've been in their paper had they done so.

He says that when he has time he's going to check, talk with some of the original people on the case (it's changed hands alot since then), dig around and find the information on the personal effects, etc. He said that he'd keep my number and call back, but that it may be a while.

I'll update when that (or anything else for that matter) happens.

[Whisper]

We basically just solved a similar case in Windsor.It was a John and Jane Doe.They were found shot here about 18 yrs ago in Mic Mac Park.It was believed they had been shot in the head in a bad drug deal by someone sitting in the back seat of a car they never found.Then dumped out.After 16 yrs they tracked down a mini van that had been sold I think 3 xs at least and ripped carpet up and tested all kinds of stuff and solved the identities,murders and arrested the right guy.So dont give up it was cold case guys that arent cops that solved it.So you may give a family some peace down the road.

[Undeniable Truth]

We basically just solved a similar case in Windsor.It was a John and Jane Doe.They were found shot here about 18 yrs ago in Mic Mac Park.It was believed they had been shot in the head in a bad drug deal by someone sitting in the back seat of a car they never found.Then dumped out.After 16 yrs they tracked down a mini van that had been sold I think 3 xs at least and ripped carpet up and tested all kinds of stuff and solved the identities,murders and arrested the right guy.So dont give up it was cold case guys that arent cops that solved it.So you may give a family some peace down the road.

Thank you for telling me about that case. That just totally boosted my spirits. It's absolutely wonderful to hear that it was solved!

[SoUncool]

That case in Windsor sounds like it has a lot of similarities...? I wonder if there are other similar cases that can be all tied together somehow.

[Undeniable Truth]

That case in Windsor sounds like it has a lot of similarities...? I wonder if there are other similar cases that can be all tied
together somehow.

Boy that IS something to consider. Where's Windsor?

[SoUncool]

It looks like Whisper is in Windsor, Ontario...here's a map from Windsor, PO (is that how you abbreviate it? Province of Ontario?) to McAlester, OK. It not really close but not totally impractical either.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2qbc75g.jpg

I wonder if there were other unsolved murders along this path...

[Whisper]

Thank you for telling me about that case. That just totally boosted my spirits. It's absolutely wonderful to hear that it was solved!
Your welcome it was the 1 cold case that everyone was bound and bent to solve.And now with the Caylee Anthony case being so big it has brought our only child murder cold case we have ever had here,to the front burner again.Back in May 1971 a stranger walked away with a 6 yr old he said he would pay her $8.00 to help him do a small job.Personally I have no clue how they know that it and that bothers me.Her battered body ,face covered in blood was found a few blocks away and the killers never been caught so now they are opening a new investigation into it.Her name was Ljubica Topic and hopefully we will solve her case fast:lollypop:

[Whisper]

It looks like Whisper is in Windsor, Ontario...here's a map from Windsor, PO (is that how you abbreviate it? Province of Ontario?) to McAlester, OK. It not really close but not totally impractical either.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2qbc75g.jpg

I wonder if there were other unsolved murders along this path...
Windsor Ontario Canada (ONT).It is directly across from Detroit.You could literally swim from my front yard to Detroit.The bodies you thought at first were from Manitoba.Thats thousands of miles west of me.Im as south as you can get in Canada."""BUT""" its not totally inconcievable.5 yrs ago we had a serial rapist and they didnt know his name but they tracked him from Alberta (which is out west by Manitoba) all through Canada.In Windsor we began having rapes (we never have that) and it was same guy that had been raping women all through so they began a news campaign here in Windsor.Stores were selling alarms for pockets etc like crazy.We are a very quiet city even for the size of it we have very little crime,last yr had 3 murders and thats alot for us.But I was off 1 night and decided to walk to the store which is 1 block down the street and 1 block up.Normally I dont walk at night but I wanted something snacky.So I decided to take my dog who was a 11 yr old husky at the time and very protective.I walked into the store and was talking to Joseph the owner while he gave me shit for walking to the store that late.I noticed he had 3 of his buddys there (all dark haired arabic) and that made me notice a guy by the pay phone he was young maybe 20s and fair skinned and fair haired.So I got my stuff and began walking back home.I couldnt see anyone around me but I knew someone was walking behind me almost to my left side.So I began to get a bit nervous and as I slowed down they slowed down,if I sped up they sped up.And all I kept thinking was when I hit my house I would have to put code into gate (was a private locked driveway),then have to unlock door get in and relock door and that was to much to do if someone wanted to grab me.So I decided to go to my neighbors and pretend I lived there,hes a single dad and Chrysler was on spa week so he was up and home.I knocked saying honey I forgot my key lol and Vince came to the door and I whispered that the guy was following me and I was scared that he was trying to get me or something.So Vince in shorts(this was January) chased the guy but he ran off.Next day find out with in a 1 block area around that time the guy struck again.Grabbed a young girl dragged her into a garage and raped her.So I called cops told them to go to Macs and that on the video for the night before they would find the guy that followed me home after midnight.And it was the guy on the Macs Milk camera!! So he was arrested and it was same guy that did rapes from Alberta all the way down to ONT.He had no set age or that ,that he raped,he raped as young as 11 as old as 70.But I went on a guilt trip for a longtime because I didnt hear anything when he grabbed that young girl (she was 20).But as my husband said it was winter so all doors and windows were closed,heat was kicking on and off etc.So its not crazy to think crimes can be related even thousands of miles apart.Since that time I have become great friends with some of the cops that were looking for him.If theres anything down here you would like me to check out at my end let me know and I will gladly see if theres anything here to help you,,

[Whisper]

O.K I just went through and got the list here of our cold cases.Give me a few days to read them and see if anything clicks with what you have here in your posts.Like Uncool said you never know.We dont have many but there are 5 from 89-95 I will go through and check out all the police stuff here see if theres any similarities in the cases and Ill let you know.We have 16 from 1971 till 2003 including 2 sets of mom and young sons murdered.But Ill see what I can glean from these and let you know,,

[Whisper]

You may already know of this site Im not sure but its called "Crime seekers" and they have a forum called "Gone But Not Forgotten".And they have all sorts of realtime chats about crimes maybe someone on this site will have some info or be looking for the 2 you you are hoping to name.Where In Ok is that town??My daughters in Edmond she goes to university in Ok.Hopefully you will find something and I also will keep looking in diff sites as I look to find who killed this little girl near me,,,http://forums.crimeseekers.net/index.php

[Whisper]

K now you have me going I found a site for Canadians reported missing,whats the closest Canadian city/province to your area of O.K.??

[Shellie435]

(Sorry about going off the actual thread subject, but I thought I'd answer this for whisperswing :)

Back in May 1971 a stranger walked away with a 6 yr old he said he would pay her $8.00 to help him do a small job.Personally I have no clue how they know that it and that bothers me.:lollypop:
It was about dusk May 14th, 1971, when Ljubica was on
Drouillard Road with her 8-year-old brother. They were approached by a young man who offered them money, saying he had a job for Ljubica. Her brother was given 10 cents to go away.
http://www.police.windsor.on.ca/History/historical%20booklet%20final%20draft.pdf

[Undeniable Truth]

I'm sorry for the delay, whispers. I found out yesterday afternoon that I have pneumonia (eek!) so I sort of took last night off. As addicted as I've become to this site, that was hard for me by the way.

I'll look at some maps and check back in a sec.

[Undeniable Truth]

You may already know of this site Im not sure but its called "Crime seekers" and they have a forum called "Gone But Not Forgotten".And they have all sorts of realtime chats about crimes maybe someone on this site will have some info or be looking for the 2 you you are hoping to name.Where In Ok is that town??My daughters in Edmond she goes to university in Ok.Hopefully you will find something and I also will keep looking in diff sites as I look to find who killed this little girl near me,,,http://forums.crimeseekers.net/index.php

McAlester is about 2 hours or so SE of Edmond, in the SE patch of the state. There are lots of universities in that area. Does your daughter go to UCO? I went there for a while before moving to a different area, and it's a good school.

I appreciate you looking at this. I've searched and searched and I swear I've come up with zero missing person matches. I still haven't heard back from the OSBI yet, but he did say that he wanted to talk to several people who previously worked the case, and that it may take a while. I was thinking about mailing dateline and 20/20 today.

[Undeniable Truth]

K now you have me going I found a site for Canadians reported missing,whats the closest Canadian city/province to your area of O.K.??

Looking at distances (just at a glance, mind you) it looks like your area is the closest to where these bodies where found. However, since their watches were set to MST, I had been focusing on MST zone provinces in Canada:



[edit] Canada
Main article: Time in Canada
The following provinces and areas are part of the Mountain Time Zone:

Alberta
the Northwest Territories (except for Tungsten)
most of the Kitikmeot Region of Nunavut
portions of southeastern and northeastern British Columbia
the area of Saskatchewan immediately surrounding the city of Lloydminster

[edit] Mexico
Main article: Time in Mexico
The following states are part of the Mountain Time Zone:

Baja California Sur
Chihuahua
Nayarit: Except from the Bahía de Banderas municipality which uses the Central time zone.
Sinaloa
Sonora: always on MST - no daylight saving time like Arizona.
Revillagigedo Islands (Colima): 3 of the 4 islands uses the Mountain Time Zone, Isla Socorro, San Benedicto Island and Roca Partida.

[edit] United States
Main article: Time in the United States
The following states or areas are part of the Mountain Time Zone:

Arizona - always on MST - no daylight saving time except in the Navajo Nation.
New Mexico
Wyoming
Utah
Colorado
Montana
Idaho (except northern panhandle)
Eastern Oregon/Malheur County
the southwestern quadrant of North Dakota
the western half of South Dakota
the western third of Nebraska
the two westernmost counties in Texas (Hudspeth, El Paso) and a portion of Culberson County
four counties in Kansas (Greeley, Hamilton, Sherman, and Wallace)
the Nevada towns of West Wendover and Jackpot
the city of Kenton, Oklahoma
Arizona does not observe daylight saving time. However, the Navajo Nation, the bulk of whose area is within Arizona, observes daylight saving time throughout its territory. The Hopi Reservation, an enclave inside the Navajo Nation, does not observe daylight saving time.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Standard_Time_Zone

[Whisper]

TY Shellie,See here theres no mention of her brother here that I have ever heard.I remember my dad telling me about this case.I couldnt figure out how they knew that he offered her $8.00.That is only a 2 minute walk from my home and basically abandoned empty road now. ,,,,,,,,,I spent 8 hours last night going through missing people in Canada from 1994-1995 and there are none that match the descriptions but I am still waiting for a list of missing couples from Canada I hope to get it today.With the watchs being 1 hour behind OK time I have been trying to find what the closest diff time zones are around there,,,,,,,,Yes my daughters in University Of Central Oklahoma shes always wanted to live in that state for some reason,we have no clue why.. she didnt know anyone but she loves it there.Sorry your sick I used to get Pnuemonia once a yr like clock work but I got the pnuemonia vaccine 3 yrs ago and so far so good supposed to be good for 10 yrs.Heres a web site you may be able to get some help with this case.Its the guy Paul LaRosa who has the show 48 HOURS MYSTERY and hes got a site called "The Murder Book".Hes written a few books on murders and even though his sites called The Murder Book NYC he doesnt only know about NYC murders hes a very good investigator.And I will let you know what I find out from this end,Whisper,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,http://tacomaconfidential.typepad.com/the_murder_book_2008/what-is-the-murder-book-.html

[Whisper]

Sorry my comp was posting this twice for some reason

[Whisper]

Shellie TY very much for that link!!I have been reading it.I had no clue we had a "Slasher" here in the 40s(my mom wasnt even born yet lol) let alone the victims were all found around my area along the water.I am beside Hiram Walker and this area has its own legend of the prohibition in the United States and gangsters!!The church 1 block away was built by Hiram Walkers and its a clone of the huge church in the movie the OMEN.But there are tunnels all under us that they snuck booze through over to Detroit.And when the church was built its got massive Bell Towers on each side of it and what they did was light a fire in each of the Bell Towers and that way the gangsters would know where to come back across the frozen river!!We also have the underground RailRoad in same area.Sorry to get OT I just wanted to thank Shellie for that link I love it!!:cheers:

[Shellie435]

Your very welcome Whisper! Quite alot of history at the link, eh? When you had mentioned how the cop knew about the $8, that really got my curiosity piqued so I did alot of searching..that was the only site I found that mentioned her brother! Like I told UT, with all the info you guys are digging up I truely hope this case gets solved. Good Luck!!!

[Whisper]

Yeah lots of info at that site I read it last night then called my mom and read half to her lol.The slasher really got me I had no clue we had that in our history and Im on the river where the attacks/murders took place.I knew about this area here like I said with the gangsters and hiram walkers but not the cops shot,slasher etc.And it was really neat to find the cops that had been shot because we lost out first cop in the line of duty 2 yrs ago and it was a huge thing cops from all over the states came here and the day of the funeral the cops from Chicago and Philly ran our dept that day so all our cops would be able to go to the funeral.But I saw in that link others had been shot and 1 killed so I have no clue why they said John was the first one killed in the line of duty.But thank you again:hello:

[Whisper]

OK UT I spent last night on comp till 3am lol.I did a missing persons search in every state you have there through the Americas Most Wanted missing persons and not 1 came close to the 2 people found.""BUT"" I have a search going will take maybe 3-4 days of all abandoned/unclaimed and/or burned out cars,trucks found March 1/95- May 1/95 in Ok and the immediate surrounding states.Since the socks were still clean Im thinking possibly they were driving through picked up a hitch hiker or someone kinda car jacked them,something to that effect.And took the car to get further away and maybe ditched it? So I will hopefully hit something with that and ll let you know,,:hello:

[Cyberbug]

In April of 1995, two bodies were found near my hometown of McAlester, OK. Neither victim has ever been identified, and there have been no leads, suspect(s) or arrests.

It has always bothered me that these victims have never been identified. Someone out there must know who they are, and that information might be a step in the right direction toward finding their killer or killers.

Please take a look at the following links, paying particular attention to the male victim's tattoos. Both of their watches were set one hour behind Oklahoma time, which points to them not being from here.


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/419umok.html
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seekinfo/ok100803.htm

Eye w/ tear drop...Means he has been in prison or gang... Ie...Look in bigger places.

[Cyberbug]

Sorry double post :(

[Cyberbug]

In April of 1995, two bodies were found near my hometown of McAlester, OK. Neither victim has ever been identified, and there have been no leads, suspect(s) or arrests.

It has always bothered me that these victims have never been identified. Someone out there must know who they are, and that information might be a step in the right direction toward finding their killer or killers.

Please take a look at the following links, paying particular attention to the male victim's tattoos. Both of their watches were set one hour behind Oklahoma time, which points to them not being from here.


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/419umok.html
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seekinfo/ok100803.htm

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12588.html

The entire state of Oklahoma is in the Central Time Zone (CST), 6 hours behind Universal Time Coordinated (UTC). It is 1 hour behind the Eastern Time Zone (EST), that of New York City, and 2 hours ahead of the Western Time Zone (WST), that of Los Angeles.

The Central Time Zone also includes the majority of Texas and Kansas; the eastern portions of such states as Nebraska and the Dakotas; the entirety of many centrally located states such as Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Illinois, Missouri, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama; and western portions of Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky and Indiana.

In addition, Oklahoma practices Daylight Saving Time, in effect from the 2nd Sunday in March to the 1st Sunday in November. During Daylight Saving Time, Oklahoma is 5 hours behind Universal Time Coordinated (UTC). Daylight Saving Time is not observed in the U.S. by Hawaii, American Samoa, Guam, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, and Arizona (with the exception of the Navajo Nation in northeastern Arizona).


http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/full.html


This should help you close in on where to search....

[Zibarro]

Can I pipe in with some observations?

First, those tats look about as homemade as I've ever seen. Wondering if they've checked the criminal database?

Also, I noticed this in the description of where they were found:


one-half mile from the entrance of Crower Point, which is a Lake Eufaula public campsite.

Did they scour that campsite to see if perhaps these 2 had set up a tent or camper? That would explain the element of surprise, too. Campers may sleep in their clothing - but usually take off their shoes.

Just something to ponder.

Good luck. I think it's awesome that you're so passionate about this!

[Undeniable Truth]

In 1995 our daylight savings time was from April 2nd to October 29th.

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/dst1995.html

Were they one hour behind us as in: They were CST before the DST change, and are now one hour behind? Or: They were MST (one hour behind CST)even before the DST time change, and still would've been an hour behind us had they lived long enough to change their watches?

I assumed the latter, but I did want to clarify and I can't believe I didn't even have it on my list.

Thanks for the reminder.

[Undeniable Truth]

I'm so glad that I posted this on here. You guys have brought up alot of different ideas and avenues. That's what I was hoping for.

I hope the sheriff's department has looked into alot of these things mentioned, such as the campsite searching, etc. One thing that Detective Mackey (OSBI) said to me on the phone was that he'd like to assure me that lots of people had looked into this case, and that alot of man hours have been put in in the last nearly 14 years. Toward the end of our conversation he mentioned something along the lines of that they would all like to see this couple identified, and I mentioned also finding out who killed them. He then said "It's really pretty sad." The only thing I could say was "Yeah. It really is. It really is."

I'll start looking at offender databases. Maybe there's something out there that someone has missed.

[Whisper]

Yeah thats what my husband and I had been talking about.Theres a guy here used to live by us and he had 3 teardrops UNDER his eye.And according to Ug (his nic name) and the cops and people who know him thats 3 killings.He was in Jackson State Prison many,many yrs ago so it kinda makes sense.His real name is lee but his nic name is ug,,ug + lee=uglee lol.So I am going to his place today and ask him few more questions about it,,Whisper

[Whisper]

I am actually 1/3 of the way through Missing Adult Network and I have seen some dated back to the 20s and I have a few I pulled that seem "similar" so hopefully see few more today as I go through it.And I hope to have the list of abandoned/unclaimed/and/or/burned out vehicles from March 1/95-May 1/95,

[Whisper]

Im sorry forgot to mention go to www.windsorstar.com 01/25/09.On the front page is a guy that had been missing here over a yr.The body had disappeared from here in Canada in Amherstburg over a yr ago car was found by the river Amherstburg is a small community outside of Windsor.The body washed up in States months later but since he was from Mississauga by Toronto It was barely on the radar here.But they reconstructed his face from using the skull as a base and identified him.Its a good article to kinda give a bit of hope,Whisper

[Rockin Ma]

Good job guys!

[Whisper]

I am still looking through missing adult site(there are thousands) and Im afraid if I skip 1 that will be the 1.I spoke with Ug and the teardrops UNDER the eye are prison tattoos alot of the time and some are wanna be ex- inmates.I did come across a site on tattoos and I will read more into it later but its got a section I read part of that a tattooed eyeball with a teardrop tattooed under it on the right forearm was a big hit with teens in California.So I have to read more like I said but maybe this will be the thing to get a bit closer.K im off to work and Ill check it out more later:cheers:

[Undeniable Truth]

I did come across a site on tattoos and I will read more into it later but its got a section I read part of that a tattooed eyeball with a teardrop tattooed under it on the right forearm was a big hit with teens in California.So I have to read more like I said but maybe this will be the thing to get a bit closer.K im off to work and Ill check it out more later:cheers:

Very nice information!

Here's the wall I'm running into on the offender search: On most of the state DOC sites there's no "by description" search method. Most are by name only. Perhaps I should print and mail (or e mail) with search requests.

[Whisper]

Thats not a bad idea.Maybe if you were able to explain to them the circumstances they would provide you what they could,:lollypop: I am going to police station later to see what they may know about a guy I found on missing adults from Buffalo NY which is only about 250- 300 miles away from here.Hes here in Windsor on the site it said "medical condition,needs meds"which is something I am seeing alot of.So hopefully 1 family will have some closure for now and hopefully a few more before all is said and done.:lollypop:

[Whisper]

See you have a easier time getting info over in the States.Here in Canada theres a Privacy Act (thats why its easier to molest/rape children here because we have no registry to see if any live in our neighborhood because they deserve PRIVACY) sorry thats a sore spot for me I am going to change if it kills me.But for me to get info on missing persons here alot of info is locked up until a person has been dead 125 yrs!!So in 125 yrs whos going to friggen care what I did!!I know I dont care what people were doing 125 yrs ago!Just seems to be so much harder getting results over here so thats why it takes me longer to find out info I have dig through everything.:argh:

[Shellie435]

Hey..I'm tryin to send you a PM but I went to your profile and theres no place to send you a note..is there somewhere else I can do this??

(sorry for goin off topic guys :)

[Undeniable Truth]

Until you asked, I didn't even know how to do it. After I sign in to the forum, at the near top right of the screen, under my name there's a link that says private messages. I clicked on that and it took me to a message page. On the left hand side of the screen it says "Control panel", and under that it says send message.

I clicked on that and typed in your name. You should have a message in your inbox from me. If anyone knows a different way to go about this, chime in. Like I mentioned, this is my first go around.

[Whisper]

:dong:heres a small tidbit I found checking it out further but heres what eyes mean in prison(california)/////
Eyes (these are forcibly placed to show that the prisoner is used for sexual gratification)

[Shellie435]

Hey UT, Whisper..any updates for us?
And Whispers last post made me kinda curious so here's what I got:

I did a little askin around and checkin the web out of curiosity, heres what I found:
teardrop on left eye means you've murdered someone, right eye you've lost a loved one
They can indicate how many times you've killed
In Australia, Child molesters are forcibly tatooed with tears to symbolize the abuse the molester are going to suffer at the hands of the other prisoners.
An empty tear signifies a loved one has been killed or the bearer has unsuccesfully attempted murder
a filled tear signifies a loved one had taken their own life or was killed by the cause other than murder (car wreck, accident)
tear with empty top and full bottom means the wearer has avenged the murder of a loved one
Keep in mind the reasonings are all regional so you never really know..and hey, maybe someones just that depressed they gutto show the world, you never know!

[Whisper]

Hey UT, Whisper..any updates for us?
And Whispers last post made me kinda curious so here's what I got:

I did a little askin around and checkin the web out of curiosity, heres what I found:
teardrop on left eye means you've murdered someone, right eye you've lost a loved one
They can indicate how many times you've killed
In Australia, Child molesters are forcibly tatooed with tears to symbolize the abuse the molester are going to suffer at the hands of the other prisoners.
An empty tear signifies a loved one has been killed or the bearer has unsuccesfully attempted murder
a filled tear signifies a loved one had taken their own life or was killed by the cause other than murder (car wreck, accident)
tear with empty top and full bottom means the wearer has avenged the murder of a loved one
Keep in mind the reasonings are all regional so you never really know..and hey, maybe someones just that depressed they gutto show the world, you never know!
Hi,I will have some more for you hopefully monday I took a few days off I was up until 3,4,5 am and then going to work! I have found some really good site for missing people and some gorry so if anyone wants the addys let me know and Ill post them for you.

[Whisper]

Hey UT, Whisper..any updates for us?
And Whispers last post made me kinda curious so here's what I got:

I did a little askin around and checkin the web out of curiosity, heres what I found:
teardrop on left eye means you've murdered someone, right eye you've lost a loved one
They can indicate how many times you've killed
In Australia, Child molesters are forcibly tatooed with tears to symbolize the abuse the molester are going to suffer at the hands of the other prisoners.
An empty tear signifies a loved one has been killed or the bearer has unsuccesfully attempted murder
a filled tear signifies a loved one had taken their own life or was killed by the cause other than murder (car wreck, accident)
tear with empty top and full bottom means the wearer has avenged the murder of a loved one
Keep in mind the reasonings are all regional so you never really know..and hey, maybe someones just that depressed they gutto show the world, you never know!
Exactly,the reasoning is what the person wants it to be.Like the one I found that a eye with a tear coming out of it is to mark the prisoners that are used for sexual gratification!! I havent lived in a cave all my life,I have grown up and raised by bikers alot of my childhood and I have never heard that before and I have heard some wild things but that really caught me off guard!I will get back to you as I am also waiting for Canam here to give me a list of missing Indian girls about the other unidentified body they found.

[Wonder]

Hey..I'm tryin to send you a PM but I went to your profile and theres no place to send you a note..is there somewhere else I can do this??

left click on the posters name in their reply and a drop down list comes up.

[Wonder]

:questionmark: I would have to agree about the time zone factor, the hijacking, the campground all sound believable.

I am discussed that they don't publicize these people's pictures around the nation.

unbelievable I've never seen these pictures before :2in1:

if the couple met while in the military the home folks may not be missing them entirely maybe distance from their families was normal.

don't navy guys get alot of tats like them.

[Whisper]

:questionmark: I would have to agree about the time zone factor, the hijacking, the campground all sound believable.

I am discussed that they don't publicize these people's pictures around the nation.

unbelievable I've never seen these pictures before :2in1:

if the couple met while in the military the home folks may not be missing them entirely maybe distance from their families was normal.

don't navy guys get alot of tats like them.
I agree with you 100% and since I began looking into this case after UT posted it I am so amazed at the unidentified bodies that have been found and they have to belong to someone!!I mean Im talking thousands of them.Also the missing out there I have so many sites of DIFF people missing.You can google any combination of missing people eg :missing women ,: missing women in canada;missing women in ontario;missing women in texas,,etc,etc,etc its amazing the number of missing people there under each of those catagories and hundreds more and I have read 2000 go missing everyday between Canada and States!! Thats absurd and I know in there mixed with missing people and unidentified bodies theres many matchs waiting to be made and families finding out they have found their loved ones bodies!But I also know they dont have the manpower or the money to have a dept just to try and match missing and found bodies but wouldnt it be nice:questionmark::questionmark: http://meyahna.tripod.com/ this is a good site with many links

[Undeniable Truth]

Hey UT, Whisper..any updates for us?


I've got nothing right now. I work full time as a Chemist and teach Chemistry part time, and now that the Spring semester has kicked in I haven't had time to dig at all.

I've gotten no more responses from local papers in the MST, nor any of the nationals like Dateline. Paul Larosa did contact me back, but he's too busy:



Re: Begging for help with coverage of a cold case.Friday, February 6, 2009 8:16 AM
From: This sender is DomainKeys verified "PAUL LAROSA" <paul.larosa@gmail.com>

thanks for your letter. i wish i could help but i'm swamped with work...i'm sorry

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 5:18 PM

Dear Sir, I am writing to plead with you to do a story on the Crowder Point couple. A John and Jane Doe (victims of gunshot wounds to the chest), who were found by a lake near my small Oklahoma hometown nearly 14 years ago. Both were 18-24, had matching wedding bands, and their watches were set to MST. They had been dead for weeks according to estimation, and facial reconstructions here done. Despite photos of the male victim's tattoos, no one has ever identified this couple and their killer has never been found:

http://crimeshadows.com/crowder.htm
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/419umok.html
http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/332ufok.html

It has never really garnered much national attention, and I think it has to in order to be solved. Someone out there knows who these people are. If they too could a story about this case, these people and these photos, this case could probably be solved.


I'm still waiting on my callback from Detective Mackey. The last time, when he returned my call, his number showed up on my cell's caller ID as a blocked #. The other day I missed two calls that had no numbers on the ID when I looked at it later. I wondered if maybe it was him, but I don't want to bug him too much. I figure I'll give him another week or so and call to check in.

[Undeniable Truth]

I agree with you 100% and since I began looking into this case after UT posted it I am so amazed at the unidentified bodies that have been found and they have to belong to someone!!I mean Im talking thousands of them.Also the missing out there I have so many sites of DIFF people missing.You can google any combination of missing people eg :missing women ,: missing women in canada;missing women in ontario;missing women in texas,,etc,etc,etc its amazing the number of missing people there under each of those catagories and hundreds more and I have read 2000 go missing everyday between Canada and States!! Thats absurd and I know in there mixed with missing people and unidentified bodies theres many matchs waiting to be made and families finding out they have found their loved ones bodies!But I also know they dont have the manpower or the money to have a dept just to try and match missing and found bodies but wouldnt it be nice:questionmark::questionmark: http://meyahna.tripod.com/ this is a good site with many links

Isn't it just awful?? Just knowing that the does in this particular case have gone this long without being ID'd bugs the shit out of me. When you start looking at all the other cold doe cases, it's utterly saddening.

[Whisper]

Yeah it is and ironically a girl from town I was raised in (under 2500 so everyone knows everyone) her son walked out of his house he rents with 3 other university students and has disappeared.Its been 13 days and no sign.So I am attempting to help her a little but so far nothing.Just kinda weird since Im looking at sites to this couple and I have another also I am trying to see who a girl is.But hopefully Jeff will come home soon its really hard on everyone especially his mom,,

[CountJackula]

Eye w/ tear drop...Means he has been in prison or gang... Ie...Look in bigger places.


A tear drop tattoo that is next to the eye, that is filled in means that they are in a gang and have killed someone. A tear drop tattoo next to the eye not filled in means that they are in a gang.

[Undeniable Truth]

I've put my follow up call in this morning to Detective Mackey from the OSBI, hoping that he's dug around and found out some things for me.

He was out, I left my message, and am now waiting now for him to call me back. Hoping to be able to add more info soon.

[Undeniable Truth]

He left a message for me on my voicemail, but when I called back he was out. I left another message at the desk, so hopefully he'll call back tomorrow.

I intend to clarify the time thing, ask if he's had a chance to talk to the previous men on the case, among other things. I promise that I'll be staring down my phone like a hawk this time, and I'll update as soon as he calls back.

P.S. If I'm forgetting anything, or if there's anything else you guys would like for me to ask, let me know.

[Undeniable Truth]

No updates or anything to post.

I have sent out a plea on local blog sites, asking that the bloggers contact various national media outlets and beg for coverage on the case. I really think that's the only shot we have for identification at this point.

[Whisper]

In April of 1995, two bodies were found near my hometown of McAlester, OK. Neither victim has ever been identified, and there have been no leads, suspect(s) or arrests.

It has always bothered me that these victims have never been identified. Someone out there must know who they are, and that information might be a step in the right direction toward finding their killer or killers.

Please take a look at the following links, paying particular attention to the male victim's tattoos. Both of their watches were set one hour behind Oklahoma time, which points to them not being from here.


http://www.doenetwork.org/cases/419umok.html
http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seekinfo/ok100803.htm
Im wondering where this is located in O.K compared to Moore?
Im going there in couple weeks and this case is what got me here to DD and Id like to nose around a bit there

[Undeniable Truth]

It's a bit of a drive, but not too bad. I-40 E to the Indian Nation turnpike, then south on the Indian Nation all the way to McAlester if that's where you're going (the Pittsburg County Sheriff's office is located there). McAlester is about 2 hours or so from Moore. Here's the address to the Sheriff's department:


1210 N West St
McAlester, Oklahoma 74501

(918)423-5858

The Does are both buried in Dorsey Cemetery, which is north west of McAlester:

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=doe&GSfn=john&GSbyrel=in&GSdyrel=in&GSst=38&GScnty=2188&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=41976172&


From the intersection of Stonewall and "D" streets in McAlester, go 4.2 miles on blacktop to Tannehill road, just past Coal Creek Bridge. There is a sign on right. Turn left and travel 2.4 miles. Travel past Tannehill Cemetery, Tannehill School and Tannehill Store, at bottom of hill, turn right on Ulan Road (sign on right). Follow blacktop road for 4.3 miles to four way intersection, (Lily Pad Road). Turn right, go 1.5 miles to stop sign, turn right, go 0.3 miles, cemetery is on the left. No outside enclosure requirements. No other cemetery fees. All cars except the funeral home cars park outside the cemetery gate.

http://bishopfuneral.org/Cemeteries/Cemeteries.htm



Crowder Point is just off of Highway 69 north of McAlester.

[Valasca]

How did I miss the topic?
UT... this is my LIFE, doing UIDs.
My pet case is www.doenetwork.org/cases/13uffl.html
I was featured in the Miami Herald about this case. Why doesn't anyone want her?

[Whisper]

Im wondering where this is located in O.K compared to Moore?
Im going there in couple weeks and this case is what got me here to DD and Id like to nose around a bit there
why was this groaned lol:questionmark::questionmark::questionmark:

[Valasca]

(Checking to see if I accidentally groaned it. I'm good at that)
Good, it was not me. Could be Sin is like me and runs out of thanks and hits groan instead???