Michael Giovo Arrested After His Baby Dies

[nurseronda]

LARGO — Skyler Giovo was just 4 months old when he died Wednesday night.

Largo police say they think he was the victim of shaken baby syndrome, brought on by his father, Michael L. Giovo Jr.

But Giovo said he's done nothing to hurt his son and that the only injury he can think of happened when the baby fell off a couch on Thanksgiving night.

In an interview from the Pinellas County Jail, where he faces charges of aggravated child abuse and murder, Giovo said he has been wrongfully accused and his legal problems have now compounded an already devastating personal tragedy.

"It's not fair. The law is supposed to be out there to get the bad guys," Giovo said Friday during an interview at the jail. "I'm not a bad guy. I would never hurt my son."

How the child actually received such severe, internal head injuries will be a question for the courts.

But both police and Giovo agree about certain parts of the timeline leading up to Skyler's death.

Thanksgiving Day, Giovo, fiancee Jessica Hooper and their children spent the day with family nearby. When they came home, Hooper went to sleep and Giovo stayed up watching television, according to Giovo's account.

Sometime that night, Skyler began to cry so Giovo took him out of his crib and placed him on the couch while he prepared a bottle.

Giovo said he heard a cry and discovered his son had fallen off the couch. Police say the couch is roughly 18 inches off the Berber carpeted floor. Giovo said that the baby cried for a while, but he seemed to recover, and that Skyler slept next to him in bed that night.

The next morning, the parents noticed the baby was not acting right, according to police and Giovo. He was sluggish, he was not hungry. When he started to twitch, the parents rushed him to All Children's Hospital.

Giovo points to this as further evidence he didn't harm his son. If he had abused the boy, why would he have rushed the boy to the hospital, Giovo asked.

At All Children's, doctors discovered the baby was suffering from serious injuries. Police were told by a doctor that the injuries were "highly inconsistent" with a fall from a couch and were more likely an indication of child abuse.

As Skyler lay on his death bed, Michael Giovo was interviewed by police at the hospital and then at his home on La Costa Lane in Largo.

"I didn't get to see my son for seven hours while they were interrogating me," Giovo complained. He said he went along with the interview voluntarily because police said he was not a suspect. "If I knew they were going to make me a suspect I would have asked for a lawyer right then."

On the night of Nov. 29, he was arrested and taken to jail on a charge of aggravated child abuse, where he was held without bond. The arrest affidavit said the baby was expected to die within 24 hours.

Giovo continued to stay in touch with his fiancee and his father over the next few days as his son's condition showed no improvement.

Wednesday night, doctors told the family that the boy would never be able to open his eyes and would remain a vegetable, Giovo said. He and his fiancee decided to remove him from life support.

The loss has been devastating for the family. Giovo has one other son, 5-year-old Ashton, who lives with the boy's mother. Hooper has a 5-year-old daughter who lives with them on La Costa Lane. Giovo said the girl was taken away by the Department of Children and Families because of the allegations. Police said Hooper had no knowledge of the Thanksgiving incident.

Giovo was already scheduled to appear in court next week on a felony charge of identity theft and has a criminal record that includes burglary charges. Until he was laid off last week, Giovo worked installing air-conditioners. His fiancee is a stay-at-home mom, according to police.

Giovo is being held without bail.

"I am not a bad father," Giovo said. "I've done everything I could for my kids."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article928047.ece

[Dakota Valkyrie]

"I've done everything I could for my kids."
Ya sure - including kill them.

[sanityslipping]

We really need to do something to get those murderous couches, bathtubs etc.. out of people's homes. The couch must've thrown the baby. Mine has fallen off the couch a few times, and she's fine.

[Silvahalo]

It sounds like this on is in SEVERE DENIAL. I'm wondering if the baby actually did fall from the couch but after he placed him there from shaking him.
Maybe walked away thinking about what he'd just done and how to cover it up.
Regardless, this poor baby boy didn't get help ALL night. Even if he had just fallen, which the doc's are saying is inconsistent with the nature of the injuries, he should have gotten little Skyler help. Surely he would have noticed the baby acting odd and likely having trouble breathing.

He said that little Skler slept with him that night. He may have had remorse for what he had just done and in that case would have seen that baby Skler was in distress...but he did nothing to help his son.

So IF he was innocent, he still deserves jail time for not getting help. That time passed might have saved his son.

I'm so sorry little Syler. Your father was once a trusted soul to you,
now all he is...is a murdering father.


My deepest sympathies to the family & friends of Sklyer Giovo.
http://i35.tinypic.com/301jc52.jpg

[F250GulfportFlorida]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.

[TheLittleFriend]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.


"...At All Children's, doctors discovered the baby was suffering from serious injuries. Police were told by a doctor that the injuries were "highly inconsistent" with a fall from a couch and were more likely an indication of child abuse..."

Eat this.

[penelopejo]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.

We are not the judicial system. We belong to site where we are allowed to express our feelings about cases like this one. I believe he did it. No doubt about it. So, when the judicial system is done with this sperm donor, you will eat your words because he will be found guilty of a crime he commited.

[Peeperann]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.

Small people with small minds? Nah, it's just that every single day we hear the killer couch or the killer bathtub did it at least a hundred times a day. Now i've never seen such killer couches and bathtubs, so the most logical conclusion is he shook and beat that baby to death.

How else would you explain it? I'm waiting on pins and needles to hear your theory................

Oh, and we don't just go on the news reports, we usually always get copies of the arrest record with all the filed charges on it, so guess our brains are a bit bigger than you think..................

[Tazzzz]

Skyler Blake Giovo
Born in Safety Harbor on Aug. 8, 2008
Departed on Dec. 3, 2008
Infant son of Michael L. Giovo Jr. and Jessica L. Hooper
http://img01.funeralnet.com/galleries/609788/273524?

Memorial Page
http://obit.alifetribute.com/obit_display.cgi?id=609788
======================================

R.I.P. Skyler Blake Giovo

[Dakota Valkyrie]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.
Take a watermelon. Drop it from a height of 18 inches to a berber carpeted floor. See what happens. Not much. And a baby is way tougher to break than a watermelon.

If I'm on his jury, I will keep in mind "innocent until proven guilty". Until then, I will, as a free thinking member of society, base my opinions on the evidence i have been presented... as well as a healthy dose of common sense and reality.

[Tazzzz]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.

OOhh SNAP, thats freaking funny shit, spewing from your pie hole. Here a fork to eat your crow with you Ass-Pirate.

http://www.tribalmask.net/dreamin-demon/Fork-U01.jpg

Michael L. Giovo Jr
http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/RenderImage.aspx?size=full&id=1331686


Charges:
1)FRAUDULENT USE OF PERSONAL ID INFO
2)AGGRAVATED CHILD ABUSE
3)HOLD ICE <---OH LOOK HOLD FOR ICE hmm wonder what that means ???
4)MURDER
=======================================

OOHH look more criminal history HHmmmm
http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/RenderImage.aspx?ID=1186390


RELEASED - 4/17/2006 8:58 PM
1) DEALING IN STOLEN PROPERTY

======================================

OOHH golly gee wiz theres more HHmmmm (whoo 4 whole months)

http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/RenderImage.aspx?ID=1203532


RELEASED - 8/22/2006 5:10 PM
1)VOP BURG; CRIMINAL MISCHIEF 2CTS
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ohh my 3 charges this time
http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/RenderImage.aspx?ID=1245125


RELEASED - 4/25/2007 8:26 PM
1) VOP DEALING IN STOLEN PROP
2) VOP ATT/BURG
3) VOP CRIMINAL MISCHIEF

==============================================
Not done yet, theres still more

http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/RenderImage.aspx?ID=1266451


RELEASED - 9/20/2007 2:18 AM
1) VOP DEALING IN STOLEN PROPERTY
2) VOP BURGLARY - ATTEMPT
3) VOP CRIMINAL MISCHIEF->$200 <$1000
============================

Last one
http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/RenderImage.aspx?ID=1326095


RELEASED - 10/18/2008 6:21 PM
1) FRAUDULENT USE OF PERSONAL ID <--- HHmmmmm
---------------------------------------------------

[penelopejo]

This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime.

HOT DAMN!!! Looks like he's been guilty of many crimes. No wonder.....this baby didn't have a chance around him. Mr. Billybadass can now add baby killer to his already long crime resume.

[Silvahalo]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.

F250, seems like your judging us "small people" for having an opinion based on facts, the small mind is all yours. Trained doctors who see this kind of injury inflicted on innocent, helpless babies everyday, right now as I type, know the difference. A fall from the couch injuries and shaken baby injuries are NOT the same...look it up. If your the mother of this baby, you shouldn't be wasting your time bitching at us, you are probably out of your mind in grief so I'll give you pardon for your ludicrous comments, but you should be praying to God, this bastard he didn't kill your baby, otherwise, your judgment based on what...his prior record?... will haunt you forever. Whoever you are, I'll be glad to wait for the verdict and be the first to apologize if he is innocent...but I think you know he is not. You, small mind are in denial.

"I am not a bad father," Giovo said. "I've done everything I could for my kids." ...yeah, including murder.

Such a sweet baby...may the angels keep you close and dear.
http://i33.tinypic.com/255v154.jpg

[Vilijonkka]

Take a watermelon. Drop it from a height of 18 inches to a berber carpeted floor. See what happens. Not much. And a baby is way tougher to break than a watermelon.

Exactly.

My son fell off the bed when 8 months. He was screaming louder than a siren, I freaked and called the ER nurse. Guess what she said?

That she's NEVER seen a baby with a brain damage after a simple fall from a bed or a couch. That the brain damage and skull fracture take a bit more, and generally, breaking baby's bones is not that easy. And that my son would most definately start acting differently and I would most definately notice it, if something was not right. Then I should bring him in.

So that is why I'm usually letting the couches and beds to walk.

[Tazzzz]

F250GulfportFlorida. Here are court documents were AssMonkey pleads Guilty to the previous crimes he commited , I got more if you want them.

http://www.tribalmask.net/dreamin-demon/Fork-U01.jpg
Michael L. Giovo Jr, pleaded no contest, VOP DEALING IN STOLEN PROP

http://tribalmask.net/dreamin-demon/Michael-Giovo01.jpg
================================================

Michael L. Giovo Jr , pleaded no contest, DEALING IN STOLEN PROP

http://tribalmask.net/dreamin-demon/Michael-Giovo02.jpg
================================================== ====

Michael L. Giovo Jr , pleaded no contest, VOP ATT/BURG

http://tribalmask.net/dreamin-demon/Michael-Giovo03.jpg
================================================== =====

Michael L. Giovo Jr , pleaded no contest,VOP ATT/BURG + VOP CRIMINAL MISCHIEF

http://tribalmask.net/dreamin-demon/Michael-Giovo04.jpg

[Peeperann]

Damn, i'm out of thanks this morning, so just wanted to say it. THANKS for pulling up all those docs everyone!

Guess the stupid spewing moron hasn't come back yet?? Damn. I was really hoping he/she would. Guess it realized we have much bigger brains than it thought!!

[Morticia]

Such a sweet baby...may the angels keep you close and dear.
http://i33.tinypic.com/255v154.jpg[/QUOTE]


This is heartbreaking. Actually seeing that sweet little face brings it home that this little boy is gone.

[Spitfire77]

You all must be small people with small minds, if you have a mind at all. This guy has not been proven guilty of any crime. Not everything you read in the paper is the truth. Perhaps if you believed in the judicial system you would let this guy have his day in court. Once he is proven NOT GUILTY of this crime, you can all eat your words.

I'll just throw in my .02. My daughter rolled off the bed yesterday (and we have a VERY high bed, feet hang about a foot from the floor when sitting on it). She was wailing bloody murder.

Know what she's like today? She's not in a vegetative state, she's the same smiling, happy baby that she was before it happened.

Maybe I just didn't buy one of those baby-killing pieces of furniture. I guess we'll never know...

[F250GulfportFlorida]

I agree this young man has been in ALOT of trouble in his life, however he has never harmed anyone. He is NOT a killer, and as of today has not been charged with any crime concerning his son Skyler. To those of you that think I do not read your posts, your wrong. I am happy my comments are as welcome here as yours are.

[Spitfire77]

I agree this young man has been in ALOT of trouble in his life, however he has never harmed anyone. He is NOT a killer, and as of today has not been charged with any crime concerning his son Skyler. To those of you that think I do not read your posts, your wrong. I am happy my comments are as welcome here as yours are.

Michael Giovo Jr.'s Pinellas County Sheriff's Office Charge Report (http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/SubjectResults.aspx?id=1331686)

It says on the report that he's charged with Aggravated Child Abuse and Murder. So if that's not concerning his son Skylar, is there another child he's murdered?


Court Records for the Child Abuse and Murder Charges
Child Abuse Court Case #CRC0825331CFANO (http://pubtitlet.co.pinellas.fl.us/servlet/justice.docketdisplay.GEPE?CDI=CRC&CASE=0825331CFANO&CS__RESULTS__KNT=10)
Murder Court Case #CRC0825611CFANO (http://pubtitlet.co.pinellas.fl.us/servlet/justice.docketdisplay.GEPE?CDI=CRC&CASE=0825611CFANO&CS__RESULTS__KNT=10)

[penelopejo]

http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/SubjectResults.aspx?id=1331686

If you click on the link above, you will see that charge number 2 and charge number 4 show that he is Charged for Aggravated child abuse and murder. He is still in jail as I type this. So, check your facts before you come on here looking like a doofus.

[TheLittleFriend]

I agree this young man has been in ALOT of trouble in his life, however he has never harmed anyone. He is NOT a killer, and as of today has not been charged with any crime concerning his son Skyler. To those of you that think I do not read your posts, your wrong. I am happy my comments are as welcome here as yours are.

"Largo police say they think he was the victim of shaken baby syndrome, brought on by his father, Michael L. Giovo Jr."

"..At All Children's, doctors discovered the baby was suffering from serious injuries. Police were told by a doctor that the injuries were "highly inconsistent" with a fall from a couch and were more likely an indication of child abuse..."


I have to remind you again because you're doofus.

[Tazzzz]

I agree this young man has been in ALOT of trouble in his life, however he has never harmed anyone. ( Your Opinion) He is NOT a killer (your opinion), and as of today has not been charged with any crime concerning his son Skyler ( WRONG, Thats a lie ). To those of you that think I do not read your posts, your wrong. I am happy my comments are as welcome here as yours are.

Michael is charged with MURDER and aggrevated child abuse. He is currently behind bars in a Maximun security Center, with no bond set. I dought he will get one anyways since he has a ICE hold, but I could be wrong .

I am pretty suprised you are not trying to convince us about it not being, shaken baby syndrome but HLH, GA1 and Menkes Disease. That defence never works anyways so dont bother.


There are several frightening shaken baby syndrome statistics:
One out of four shaken babies die. Several studies estimate that 15% of children's deaths are due to battering or shaking.

Of the thousands of SBS victims who survive death, serious injury follows. The victims' average age is six months.
More than 60% of the victims of SBS are male.
80% of the perpetrators of SBS are male.

During the last few years, it was taught that DTP injection might stimulate the pathology seen in. This is in spite of the proof that it has not appeared in a legitimate medical article. In the annals of shaken baby syndrome laws, the DTP defense was raised without much avail in the criminal prosecution of Malcolm Scoon, an anesthesiologist convicted of manslaughter for the death of his five-year-old daughter, Mariah. She showed all the signs and symptoms of SBS. Dr. Scoon claimed that his daughter died from an infection caused by a vaccination received one week prior to death. The jury rejected this claim as the case is pending on appeal.

----------------------------------------------
Michael current staus and location.

Offender ID: 1331686
Offender Name: MICHAEL LOUIS GIOVO
Date of Birth:9/23/1980
Age:28
Custody Status: In Custody
Location of Offender: PINELLAS COUNTY JAIL - Maximun security Center
------------------------------------------------

Just stick to your opinions and you probly wont get harrased, if you have facts them check them first or we will call you on it.

[F250GulfportFlorida]

He has been arrested but has not been charged by the state. You need to dig a little deeper before you place your so called facts on here.

[Spitfire77]

He has been arrested but has not been charged by the state. You need to dig a little deeper before you place your so called facts on here.

So, if he hasn't been charged by the state, why was he in court for those charges? It looks like you've been digging so deeply that your head is firmly engaged up your ass.

[penelopejo]

Spitfire you nailed it.

Gulfport...you need to realize that the state has charged him.

http://pubtitlet.co.pinellas.fl.us/servlet/justice.docketdisplay.GEPE?CDI=CRC&CASE=0825331CFANO&CS__RESULTS__KNT=10
that one is for child abuse.

http://pubtitlet.co.pinellas.fl.us/servlet/justice.docketdisplay.GEPE?CDI=CRC&CASE=0825611CFANO&CS__RESULTS__KNT=10
that one is for the murder.

(I can pull up the other 2 charges if needed.)

click the link. He's had a few court dates and appearances already. Notice that the style of the case says State of Florida vs. Michael Giovo. His bond reduction was withdrawn and he is still in jail because his bail is set really high. On top of that, I really don't think they're going to let him go because he is being held for ICE which means he's probably going to be a runner. So really, I dug, and there's the info, what more do you want?!?! Are you that blind?

[Tazzzz]

He has been arrested but has not been charged by the state. You need to dig a little deeper before you place your so called facts on here.

Geez, stop acting like a little child, he has been arrested with a probable cause warrant, appointed a lawyer and awaits a trial by jury. No he hasn't been found guilty yet.

Both you and Michael have a serious case of Denial. They have a 12 step program that can help you cope with your problum. If you like we can find the nearest one for you.


Denial is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too uncomfortable to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence.

[1] The subject may deny the reality of the unpleasant fact altogether (simple denial), admit the fact but deny its seriousness or admit both the fact and seriousness but deny responsibility (transference). The concept of denial is particularly important to the study of addiction.

The theory of denial was first researched seriously by Anna Freud. She classified denial as a mechanism of the immature mind, because it conflicts with the ability to learn from and cope with reality.

[supastar79]

F250.... At first I thought you were just an idiot but now after reading your posts I feel sorry for you. It must be terrible to be so stupid that you can't see the forest for the trees. Your friend, boyfriend, son (whoever) he is to you, has been charged with the murder of his son. Whether he is guilty will now be decided by a jury of his peers. For your sake, I hope they pick morons because no one with an ounce of commom sense will let this guy off.

FYI: I am speaking from expirence, I had a child who passed away from Shaken Baby Syndrome (babysitter) and the injuries can in no way be caused from a short distance fall like the one the father claims happen! Wake up and get a clue!!

[F250GulfportFlorida]

I guess I could say thanks for all the replies. But I did not need all the name calling. I know this young man, and can assure you he did NOT kill his son. I do believe in the court system, and feel certain he will be found NOT guilty. I personally feel that if this child was shaken, it had to have been done by someone at the party the family was at the day the baby started acting strange, having seizures. There were around 25 people at the house. Lets hope I am right and everyone else is wrong.

Just standing by my friend.

[Spitfire77]

I guess I could say thanks for all the replies. But I did not need all the name calling. I know this young man, and can assure you he did NOT kill his son. I do believe in the court system, and feel certain he will be found NOT guilty. I personally feel that if this child was shaken, it had to have been done by someone at the party the family was at the day the baby started acting strange, having seizures. There were around 25 people at the house. Lets hope I am right and everyone else is wrong.

Just standing by my friend.

And who is going to stand by Skyler?

[F250GulfportFlorida]

Michael Giovo Jr was given a five dollar bond today, and will be released from jail soon. I stood by him during all this, as I said then, I will say again, he DID NOT kill his son, and has NOT been charged. Lets hope in the future you will let the judicial system work before you JUDGE someone, especially of such a terrible crime. Now I hope the Largo Police Department will be able to find out what happened to this precious baby Skyler.

Still standing by this family

[Nell]

Michael Giovo Jr was given a five dollar bond today, and will be released from jail soon.

Well that is bad fucking news if true. Thanks for the day ruining update you ass.

[Spitfire77]

Michael Giovo Jr was given a five dollar bond today, and will be released from jail soon. I stood by him during all this, as I said then, I will say again, he DID NOT kill his son, and has NOT been charged. Lets hope in the future you will let the judicial system work before you JUDGE someone, especially of such a terrible crime. Now I hope the Largo Police Department will be able to find out what happened to this precious baby Skyler.

Still standing by this family

If he hasn't been charged, as you say, then why the need for the bond? Obviously he's been charged, he just hasn't been convicted. If they drop the charges then he will still have been charged, but the charges will have been dropped. See the difference? Please remember this example in the future when you come on here. Thanks.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

It is true: $5.00 But it may mean nothing more than the judge doesn't think he's a flight risk as that is part of what bond is for - to guarantee appearance at future hearings.

The judge may also feel that he is not a risk to society or his other children (or any children?). No conditions are listed... does he have to refrain from seeing them? Is the daughter still in foster care? Those things can be quite telling and may have figured into the judge's decision.

Even if the dismiss charges, it does NOT mean he didn't do it. Unless the prosecutor explicitly says "We do not believe he did it", it only means they can't prove it.

Does not take a brain surgeon to realize an 18 inch fall won't kill a baby. They can tell a lot from the amount of damage and how long it will take the baby to show major symptoms.

[Tazzzz]

Michael Giovo Jr was given a five dollar bond today, and will be released from jail soon. I stood by him during all this, as I said then, I will say again, he DID NOT kill his son, and has NOT been charged. Lets hope in the future you will let the judicial system work before you JUDGE someone, especially of such a terrible crime. Now I hope the Largo Police Department will be able to find out what happened to this precious baby Skyler.

Still standing by the baby KILLER

To bad you still cant prove he is innocent of MURDER, his bond means jack shit about it. His sorry ass has another court date on the 26th, next monday. Not to mention that you will not be seeing him anytime soon. You seem to have forgoten he has a hold on him from the FEDs, as in federal agents AKA "ICE". Lets hope in the future you will not open your Pie Hole till you acually have some real news.

[F250GulfportFlorida]

Most of you are obviously stupid. The ICE hold means they wanted to know if he was an american citizen, he was born overseas to an american family.
His court date on the 26th has NOTHING to do with the Murder charge. I hardly believe a Judge would release him on a $5.00 bond if he thought he was guilty. The state has NO basis to hold him in jail. And to those of you that say, "Even if the dismiss charges, it does NOT mean he didn't do it", are you really that uneducated????? or just plain stupid??? Get it in your thick heads!!!!!.... This young man is NOT guilty of killing his child. Now go take your prozac and chill....

[Undeniable Truth]

I'm fairly positive that the physicians in this case know shaken baby syndrome when they see it, and can tell the difference between the devastating injuries from such and injury from falling 18 inches to a carpeted floor. These charges weren't filed for no damn reason.

If you've got a problem with that, you should be arguing with them. Not us.

If he turns out walking away from these charges scott-free, I'll be damn surprised. However, just as you asked I'll eat my words (though I haven't exactly said much on the matter that could possibly be argued with). If found guilty though, he'll join the ranks of the thousands of bastards who killed their children and tried to blame an inanimate object. The medical evidence will tell the tale whether anybody likes it or not.

My question is this: If or when he's found guilty, will you eat your own words then, or will you still be on this board screaming "He says he didn't do it and I believe him!!"???

[Spitfire77]

Most of you are obviously stupid.
Coming from you I take this as a compliment



His court date on the 26th has NOTHING to do with the Murder charge. I hardly believe a Judge would release him on a $5.00 bond if he thought he was guilty.
Actually, the $5.00 bond means that the judge is pretty confident that he's not going to run. That's all. The judge doesn't determine bail on whether or not he thinks the defendant is guilty...



The state has NO basis to hold him in jail. And to those of you that say, "Even if the dismiss charges, it does NOT mean he didn't do it", are you really that uneducated????? or just plain stupid??? Get it in your thick heads!!!!!.... This young man is NOT guilty of killing his child. Now go take your prozac and chill....

Actually, there have been plenty of cases where charges were dismissed due to insufficient evidence. That doesn't mean those people were innocent, it just means the prosecution couldn't prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they were guilty. Again, I haven't seen any court records stating that the charges against him were dropped, so until you prove otherwise, he's still charged and guilt or innocence will be determined by a jury of his peers, not you.

But, thanks for sharing this. I really appreciate it.

[penelopejo]

I think it's his wife that's posting. She sounds just as delusional as her myspace blogs sound. although, I could be wrong. It could be some other fucknut who's standing up for a baby killer.

[Morticia]

Well, Gee Whiz, I dunno My Mamma Always said Stupid is as Stupid Doooeees.


And I kinda Always know tooo Shakin Babies ain't good.

[Dakota Valkyrie]

And to those of you that say, "Even if the dismiss charges, it does NOT mean he didn't do it", are you really that uneducated????? or just plain stupid???
Apparently you are the stupid one. If you read the rest of the paragraph you will see the words: it only means they can't prove it.

I assume you have a basic grasp of the English language. Being innocent and proving guilt are two different things.

Uneducated? Stupid? I'll put my education, IQ score, knowledge of English, grammar, punctuation, and the legal process up against yours any day. I don't even need superior psychic abilities to know the winner.

You can stand by your friend all you want. I'll stand by the victim.

[Tazzzz]

Most of you are obviously stupid. The ICE hold means they wanted to know if he was an american citizen, he was born overseas to an american family.
His court date on the 26th has NOTHING to do with the Murder charge. I hardly believe a Judge would release him on a $5.00 bond if he thought he was guilty. The state has NO basis to hold him in jail. And to those of you that say, "Even if the dismiss charges, it does NOT mean he didn't do it", are you really that uneducated????? or just plain stupid??? Get it in your thick heads!!!!!.... This young man is NOT guilty of killing his child. Now go take your prozac and chill....

ROLF, I love arguing with a complete moron, read the other charge AssClown, its for identiy theft and there is NO!!!!! bond on it. You need to learn how courts work if your going to stick up for this piece of shit baby killing, excuse for a FUCKING human.

Here a clue for you Dumbass. ICE & DOJ do not just go after illegals they also go after identity theft criminals. Like your good ole butt buddy Michael L. Giovo Jr .

Any other retarded things you want to share????

[nurseronda]

I guess I could say thanks for all the replies. But I did not need all the name calling. I know this young man, and can assure you he did NOT kill his son. I do believe in the court system, and feel certain he will be found NOT guilty. I personally feel that if this child was shaken, it had to have been done by someone at the party the family was at the day the baby started acting strange, having seizures. There were around 25 people at the house. Lets hope I am right and everyone else is wrong.

Just standing by my friend.
I can understand why you are standing up for your friend. I stood up for this guy on this post too. But the more I learned, I found out this guy just may be guilty. Read the posting and you will see why.

http://www.dreamindemon.com/2008/03/28/did-tyson-chamberlain-kill-easton-lee/

Just because you know someone, don't make them innocent of a crime. I knew Jeffery Dahmer when he was young too, that didn't make him innocent either.

[Tazzzz]

What the hell F250GulfportFlorida, you need a loan for that $5.00 bail man??? cause it looks like your bosom buddy is still roting away in the slammer.

Ohh that must be because he had an indictment of MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE slapped on his ass along with making it a Capitol Felony. They could be going for life without parole or the Death penalty. Looks like he had a pretty shitty day in court and you wont be seeing him anytime soon.

Normally I wouldn't be rubbing it in, but you called us all stupid so, keep sticking by him he is going to need you more than ever now.



Offender ID: 1331686
Offender Name: MICHAEL LOUIS GIOVO
Custody Status: In Custody
Location of Offender: PINELLAS COUNTY JAIL
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


01/28/09 NOTICE OF ARRAIGNMENT - 020909 COURTROOM:
01/26/09 BOND A
01/26/09 HEARING SET: 020909/0830 AM -C- S/MTN TO INCREASE A
01/22/09 CAPIAL FELONY A
01/22/09 INDICTMENT FILED: (1CT) MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE,

[DarkPrincess]

I'm not saying this guy didn't do it, but a thief does not necessarily a murderer make. One thing that bothers me.... His fiancé was a stay at home mom, right? Where was she for all this abuse?

[Tazzzz]

I'm not saying this guy didn't do it, but a thief does not necessarily a murderer make. One thing that bothers me.... His fiancé was a stay at home mom, right? Where was she for all this abuse?

They went to a party that day and she was in bed sleeping. Your right a thief wouldn't do that but all his criminal activity and getting caught added a pretty big burden on the family not to mention he was awaiting some serious charges for identify theft with a high probability of serious jail time, he owed the court a bunch of money and they allso had some eviction notices so it was causing allot of stress that probly pushed him over the edged and he lost his temper when the baby got fussy.

I cant honestly say Michael was a evil mean man, but I do believe he killed his Innocent baby and that makes him a murderer. It wasn't accidental it was a man shaking his child so hard it died. Was he remorsefully ?? Did he love that boy ?? Probably, but the baby is still dead and nothing he can do will bring it back to life.

[DarkPrincess]

Did they find older signs of abuse or did this look like a one time deal? What I'm getting at is that a SAHM is the parent who is around the children the most, obviously. Yet she was never suspected of being the abuser or at least witnessing something. I'm wondering why that is.

[nurseronda]

Did they find older signs of abuse or did this look like a one time deal? What I'm getting at is that a SAHM is the parent who is around the children the most, obviously. Yet she was never suspected of being the abuser or at least witnessing something. I'm wondering why that is.You have raised a serious point about the fiancee Jessica Hooper. I do wonder where she was and what she was doing and was she left alone with the baby before the fall to the floor. Yes, if I were the DA I would take a good look to see if she was alone with this baby.

[penelopejo]

My heart is broken in so many ways, where's the duck tape?
Current mood: crushed

So much has been going on. Last monday the detectives came to talk to me and show me Skyler's autopsy. I felt so sick waiting for them to get there. I wanted to know what happen to my baby boy, but then i didn't. Finally they got there and they showed me the report. It pretty much said that Skyler was shakin serverly for 30 sec. They said the damage was immediant. So the time line was at our house that night. It wasn't me, i was sleeping so that means it was Michael. My heart sunk and i still didn't want to believe it. I continued to talk to him till friday when i found out he had lied to me about somethings then screwed me over on the taxes. And if that wasn't enough i got to hear a phone convo that him and his dad had just days before. His dad called ME a baby killer at least 10 times and Michael pretty much agreed. I was heart broken! Michael was turning against me after everything i had done for him. After supporting him when everyone pretty much thought i was dumb for doing so. Michael just isn't the guy I thought he was. I have to do whats best for me and Nevaeh now and move on with my life. As much as it hurts the pain will go away one day, this is just making me a stronger person.

This is Skylar's mommy. I copied this from her myspace blog. I feel bad for her cause she finally realized it was him and no one else. Maybe Gulfport was his daddy. Since he called Jessica a baby killer 10 times as she said. Damn shame.

[Silvahalo]

I think its crazy how long she's been in denial. Michael was obviously the one who injured Skylar and caused those fatal injuries.


As much as it hurts the pain will go away one day, this is just making me a stronger person.

She's been in denial for sometime now...I'm glad she finally see's the facts for what they are.
Sorry, but I doubt you will ever really get over Sylar's death. It was preventable and the man you called a lover, killed him. Stronger...uuh, I hope wiser in your choice of men.

[Tazzzz]

This is Skylar's mommy. I copied this from her myspace blog. I feel bad for her cause she finally realized it was him and no one else. Maybe Gulfport was his daddy. Since he called Jessica a baby killer 10 times as she said. Damn shame.


Thanks penelopejo for the blog info, very interesting and revealing stuff. What the hell did she think, he was a saint or something?? The tard was a thief and a fucking liar , thats hardly going to make him a good guy. It sounds like Michael's daddy could be our F250GulfportFlorida. Glad she finally woke up and smelled the coffee.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++

Court info:

02/02/09 NOTICE RETURNED SERVED A
01/30/09 DEMAND NOTICE INTENTION TO CLAIM ALIBI A ????? Hmm vey interesting
01/30/09 ANSWER TO DEMAND FOR DISCOVERY A
01/28/09 NOTICE OF ARRAIGNMENT - 020909 COURTROOM: C AT 01:30 A
01/26/09 BOND A
01/26/09 HEARING SET: 020909/0830 AM -C- S/MTN TO INCREASE A
01/22/09 CAPIAL FELONY A
01/22/09 INDICTMENT FILED: (1CT) MURDER IN THE FIRST DEGREE,

[smithfamily]

gulfport is his father!! mike is a loser and he should never be let out of jail he is a woman beater ass hole and his father knows that and he knows who i am and i waiting for the call from the courts so i can tell them how he used to beat me and was never there for his son!!!he is a dead beat father or should i say sperm donor!!!

[Tazzzz]

gulfport is his father!! mike is a loser and he should never be let out of jail he is a woman beater ass hole and his father knows that and he knows who i am and i waiting for the call from the courts so i can tell them how he used to beat me and was never there for his son!!!he is a dead beat father or should i say sperm donor!!!

Thanks for clearing that up for us smithfamily, I kind of thought he was, he was to old to be a friend. And to damn clueless to be anyone but a family member. Mikes ass is grass , even if he somehow gets very little time for murdering his son. He will be behind bars for a long time, were he definitely belongs.

[Athena]

Thanks for clearing that up for us smithfamily, I kind of thought he was, he was to old to be a friend. And to damn clueless to be anyone but a family member. Mikes ass is grass , even if he somehow gets very little time for murdering his son. He will be behind bars for a long time, were he definitely belongs.

I feel very sorry for family members, in thes cases. They're losing not one, but two people. I also understand that, when you've known someone to be kind and decent (if not a bit misguided) for an extended period of time, it's hard to imagine them capable of such horror.

But it's also important to remember that humans are multi-faceted; we never see ALL sides of a person no matter how long we know them. A cliched example, Ann Rule befriended the charismatic, charming, humourous and considerate Ted Bundy while they volunteered for a crisis center, manning the suicide hotline.

The fact that he's got several theft-related charges as well as a child out there he fails to care for speaks volumes about his consideration for other people and his respect for consequence. It only takes a 30 second temper tantrum to kill a baby. Does this guy have it in him? A disturbing amount of us do.

[F250GulfportFlorida]

Skylers mother was arrested yesterday for BATTERY. Gosh, looks like she does have a mean side to her...Now do you still think Michael is a killer?

[Nell]

Yes.

Next question?

[MadeaBecBec]

Skylers mother was arrested yesterday for BATTERY. Gosh, looks like she does have a mean side to her...Now do you still think Michael is a killer?

Link, please?

[F250GulfportFlorida]

http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/SubjectResults.aspx?id=1360749

http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/SubjectResults.aspx?id=1380395

Above are public records of skylers mom

[F250GulfportFlorida]

I hope that the Smith Family is not Michaels first girlfriend, stating negative things about michael. Here is her recent contact with the police, which is public record.

http://www.pcsoweb.com/InmateBooking/SubjectResults.aspx?id=1359125

[F250GulfportFlorida]

Public record again.

http://offender.fdle.state.fl.us/offender/flyer.do?personId=47299

[Ladyeridan]

what is it with florida? do they just issue you your crazyfuck when you're born, and if you survive the rest of the babykillers and nutjobs, you're in the club?

jesus h. i've known about four or five good people to come out of florida and not a ONE of them was born there.

if there ARE good people left in florida, they keep a low as hell profile, probably to avoid getting used for target practice.

[this is going badly]

So your trying to prove that criminals like Giovo Jr attract other criminals? I do not think anyone here will be shocked that Giovo's "fiancee(s)" would be petty criminals too. What's your point?

Jessica Hooper was booked for battery and was released on 150.00 bond. No mention of child abuse. You have come here before and your claims have been proven false but you expect us to take your word? Prove the arrest was related to child abuse.

And since you are here, how are things going for the "suspected" baby killer? I don't give a shit that you think he is innocent. My foster kids "mother" and her family still says she is innocent and she was convicted and sentenced to 21 years for abuse.

What I want to know is that he is still in prison and when the trial starts?

[TheMeaningOfItAll]

What does her father have to do with anything? Posting that just makes you seem like you are grasping at straws...throwing things against the wall to see if they stick. Also, the fact that your son/friend dates women who are criminals just proves his lack of judgement.

[Abroad]

What does her father have to do with anything?

It might matter if they were living with him; but yes, on the whole I agree that the only thing this poster is achieving is to demonstrate what poor judgement the son/friend has.

Birds of a feather, and all that.....

[badfish76]

I'm willing to give the baby's mom some slack considering what she has been through.

Death of loved ones can make a person lose their mind. Quadruple if it is an innocent baby. Then add in that someone she loved and trusted did it.

Yeah, I think I would want to whip somebody's ass myself. We are probably lucky that's ALL she did.

When is the trial? Seems the DA and the grand jury think there is enough evidence to go forward on the charges.

[Kimberix]

what is it with florida? do they just issue you your crazyfuck when you're born, and if you survive the rest of the babykillers and nutjobs, you're in the club?

jesus h. i've known about four or five good people to come out of florida and not a ONE of them was born there.

if there ARE good people left in florida, they keep a low as hell profile, probably to avoid getting used for target practice.


Hey I was born and raised in this fucknut state.....my three kids are alive happy and healthy

[F250GulfportFlorida]

Kimberix, thanks for your comment, nice to see someone on here besides me that isn't full of rage.

[MadeaBecBec]

http://i242.photobucket.com/albums/ff307/MadeaBecBec/Mugshots/michaelGiovojr20062007-2008mug.jpg
Michael Giovo Jr 2006-2007-2008 Mugshots

[apope85]

I am Michael's girlfriend and just want to inform all of you. He is an innocent man and has waisted over 2 and half years sitting in jail for a crime he didnt commit. We are in the middle of waiting for the charges to be dropped because the "expert" doctor that said this was shaken baby syndrome is under investigation, because she has wrongfully accused several people of the same thing, and there is NO evidence of this child being abused. You all should learn the facts before bashing a wonderful human being like you did. He does have a crimanal past but that doesnt make him a muderer. You ALL should be ashamed of yourselves... Your just as bad as the doctor who wrongfully accused him!

[Nell]

I am so deeply ashamed of myself.

Not.

You just unearthed a thread that is almost 3 years old. Have fun with the ensuing free for all. I am too tired to properly get it started.

[Proud wife]

I am Michael's girlfriend and just want to inform all of you. He is an innocent man and has waisted over 2 and half years sitting in jail for a crime he didnt commit. We are in the middle of waiting for the charges to be dropped because the "expert" doctor that said this was shaken baby syndrome is under investigation, because she has wrongfully accused several people of the same thing, and there is NO evidence of this child being abused. You all should learn the facts before bashing a wonderful human being like you did. He does have a crimanal past but that doesnt make him a muderer. You ALL should be ashamed of yourselves... Your just as bad as the doctor who wrongfully accused him!

I'm sure he's just as innocent as the rest of the douche bags featured on here. But hey thanks for bringing this thread to light, I haven't read it before.

[walkingeagle]

I am Michael's girlfriend and just want to inform all of you. He is an innocent man and has waisted over 2 and half years sitting in jail for a crime he didnt commit. We are in the middle of waiting for the charges to be dropped because the "expert" doctor that said this was shaken baby syndrome is under investigation, because she has wrongfully accused several people of the same thing, and there is NO evidence of this child being abused. You all should learn the facts before bashing a wonderful human being like you did. He does have a crimanal past but that doesnt make him a muderer. You ALL should be ashamed of yourselves... Your just as bad as the doctor who wrongfully accused him! I'm sure your parents are so proud of you! I just hope you have no kids! This POS you call a boyfriend has been stepping up his game in a criminal way for quite some time. You will be on the front page of this site soon if you 2 hook up!

[carolinablue]

Well hey there apope85! I don't think he's a muderer either. I think he's a murderer! (Spellcheck is your friend and will save you from ridicule by people like me).He's a cowardly, lying, baby-killing shitbag, and I'm glad he's been locked up for...what? Two years? That might have saved some other baby from being shaken to death by him; he's a cowardly, selfish, immature, shitlicking snotbag and prison is where he belongs. You, however, really piss me off by defending him. You expect a baby-killer to tell you the truth? "Yeah, I shook him like a dust mop cuz he wouldn't shut up" wouldn't get him any nookie, but "Boohhoo, the couch did it, I'm a victim, the doctor is corrupt, boohoo" sure got him some of your action, didn't it? Geez, how hard up are you? Do you have one eye in the middle of your forehead or something? Surely you could have found someone drunk enough to bang you without having to troll the criminal database for baby killers. Don't come on here spewing the old, "he's a wonderful person, you don't know all the facts, he would never do that", we've heard it before from better than you.

You have your head so far up your ass you can chew your food twice. Go be stupid somewhere else.

[walkingeagle]

DAMMIT, I tried to rep you on that one CB! Apparently I'm not spreading the love enough to get you one. Consider this my IOU! I'll get it to ASAP!

[carolinablue]

Yeah, it felt good. Damn, a woman defending a baby killer just sets me off. I guess that's sexist of me, but it makes me see red.

[tmdgirl]

I am Michael's girlfriend and just want to inform all of you. He is an innocent man and has waisted over 2 and half years sitting in jail for a crime he didnt commit. We are in the middle of waiting for the charges to be dropped because the "expert" doctor that said this was shaken baby syndrome is under investigation, because she has wrongfully accused several people of the same thing, and there is NO evidence of this child being abused. You all should learn the facts before bashing a wonderful human being like you did. He does have a crimanal past but that doesnt make him a muderer. You ALL should be ashamed of yourselves... Your just as bad as the doctor who wrongfully accused him!

Thanks so much for bringing this story up. I hadn't had the chance to read it yet :)

My question for you is this. If he is innocent, then why has he been sitting in jail for 2 years? Would you be willing to send a link to show that the doctor who ruled SBS is under investigation?

How does a child fall a few inches off a couch and suffer the head trauma that this little baby suffered?

I say the asshat did it, and I hope he rots in jail before the charges get "dropped".

[tmdgirl]

I wonder if this refers to the original troll Gulfport

http://pubtitlet.co.pinellas.fl.us/servlet/justice.crosssystemnamelookup.GEVA

The second name down refers to the father of the douchebag. I can't find any other records to show what this case is for, but it seems to be an open case.

Can anybody else find some info?

[walkingeagle]

I wonder if this refers to the original troll Gulfport

http://pubtitlet.co.pinellas.fl.us/servlet/justice.crosssystemnamelookup.GEVA

The second name down refers to the father of the douchebag. I can't find any other records to show what this case is for, but it seems to be an open case.

Can anybody else find some info?

tmdgirl Look at the first page in this drama, about halfway down the page, tazzzz tears into this one!

[badfish76]

If you are going to attempt to come here and convince anyone that the information here is wrong, the first thing you should do is learn to spell. If you are not smart enough to spell the words "murderer" and "criminal" you are likely not bright enough to identify such a person, either.

I don't have enough time to devote to really giving you a piece of my mind, but I will say that every shit bag in prison or jail swears they are innocent. A few truly are and it is a shame that assholes like the guy featured in this thread make it so hard for the actually innocent to be taken seriously. Next, if you have links to news or other documentation that the story about the doctor is true, post 'em if you got 'em. No one here is willing to take your word for it, trust me. Finally, word to the wise, just because the state drew the wrong expert and figured it out BEFORE the trial does not mean Loverboy is getting out of what he did. What it means is that the state still has time to find a new expert before the trial starts. A more credible one.

I hope you pull your head out of your ass before it's YOUR baby that gets shaken to death.

[JessieNevaeh]

Im Skylers mom and I just have a few things to say... To Michaels dad.. I understand that Michael is your son and your going to stick by his side even though he killed your grandson. But since you know nothing about me keep my name out of your mouth.. Posting my "DROPPED" charge and my dads charge (which has nothing to do with me) is absolutley childish. I have never beat my children, only thing im guilty of is picking douche bag men to be in my life in the past.....

And as for Michael's gf I really hope you have no kids.. Dating someone who's been in jail for over 2 years for killing his son is just sad and pathetic, what did you do search the jail website for the lowest scum you could find. And if your going to give a reason why this case has yet to go to trial at least get your info right!

Me and my family have been waiting over 2 years for this to be over and to finally get justice for Skyler. His attorneys can put this off all they want. The evidence will never change... When your guilty your GUILTY!! We will get justice one day and he will rot in jail the rest of his life.

[walkingeagle]

JessieNevaeh, I hope you stick around here! A lot of people on your side here! Duhfence attys' always play that waiting game. Your day will come!

[tmdgirl]

walkingeagle

I saw the page where that "friend" (dad, whatever) got ripped into. If you go to the Pinellas County records, do a search for this guy and a list pops up. The second person on the list is the father. It shows his DOB as being in 1956 and he has a current case pending against him. I wanted to know if anybody could find out more info on that case.

Link to Person-Related Charges/OBTS A GIOVO,MICHAEL L M W 10/15/1956 (father by DOB) 1020 SO HULL ST GULFPORT (same location as troll's username) T 02050540 (case number)

The link I posted in my previous post makes you login as a guest. If you don't want to do that, the info on the father's case is above.

[LAURAMARIE]

You are so wrong! you weren't there obviously..there's a lot you don't know.How can YOU assure anyone ? you sound stupid.Get the facts before you play detective!

[LAURAMARIE]

to : small minded...perfect name fo you

[LAURAMARIE]

apope85..you are sooo naive ..you don't have access to any of the facts ,just what the murderer 'told' you.your not even embarrassed to stand by a person you clearly don't know & you weren't there.you know nothing! I guess you think a team of doctors & law enforcement lied.Guess you may even be surprised of all that's going to come out in the trial as gullible as you are.I'd be glad to speak with you privately ,maybe rip the blinders off your face you damn fool

[LAURAMARIE]

apope85 your kidding right?? as naive as you are even you will be surprised at all that comes out of the trial.you weren't there .you should learn the facts,here the tapes,see the pictures & read the reports you fool!

[Jerri Blank]

Man gets life sentence for baby's death

LARGO, Fla. -- A Tampa Bay area man has been sentenced to life in prison for killing his infant son.

A Pinellas County jury found Michael L. Giovo Jr. guilty Thursday of first-degree murder, and he was automatically sentenced to life in prison.

Authorities say 4-month-old Skyler Giovo died in late 2008 from shaken-baby syndrome.

Giovo says he never hurt his son, telling police after the child's death that he must have fallen off the couch.

According to the Tampa Bay Times (http://bit.ly/LsMlIn), doctors determined that the child's severe injuries were inconsistent with a fall and were likely the result of child abuse.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/06/15/2851723/man-gets-life-sentence-for-babys.html

[Dakota Valkyrie]

I am Michael's girlfriend and just want to inform all of you. He is an innocent man and has waisted over 2 and half years sitting in jail for a crime he didnt commit. We are in the middle of waiting for the charges to be dropped...
Looks like he's going to have a whole life to "waist". I hope his girlfriend isn't still waiting for those dropped charges and has moved on to better things.

[carolinablue]

Dakota, I think she's already scanning the "pen pals wanted" section of the prison paper or database or whatever the fucktards use to scam disturbed women out of money. Hey, everyone needs a hobby, don't they?